Interview with Father Tim
Rector
Grace Episcopal Church
St. George, Utah
Interview takes place in
Father Tim’s office at the church
June 15, 2015
Matt: Father Tim., can you tell me a little bit about your biography and
how you got to where you are right now at the Grace Episcopal Church in St.
George, Utah.
Father Tim: I’ll try to keep it short. First of all, thanks for your time
today. I think it’s great hearing about
your biography and your honesty and frankness.
We share a lot of biography, more than you realize.
Timothy D. Raasch; a good German
name. In the middle of three children;
and older brother, younger sister.
Classic middle child. My first
four years were in Georgia. My father
was Air Force, World War II Army Air Corp, prisoner of war, and then got
Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees at Bradley College in Peoria.
M: Your
dad, or you?
FT: My Dad.
Transitioned from Air Force to Lockheed.
So, four years Georgia, two years the bay area, San Jose. Two years, Manchester, New Hampshire, in the
early sixties where my dad was working on a satellite tracking station. Came back to California, Sunnydale, Santa
Clara Valley, long before it was renamed Silicon Valley. I remember the Bay Area really well in terms
of orchards and apricots and cherries and figs, and gradually computers came in
in the early-80s. I remember kind of
almost. . .I imagine we all have our golden ages when we were children or
adolescents. The sixties, early-70s, is
almost a golden era of America when we, mom used to say, “Go out and play all
day,” and we’d play all day, come back in.
We weren’t being overscheduled in terms of junior high, high school, in
terms of college with masters and SAT scores.
I came out of Freemont High School in 1972. We all got draft numbers. That was really the symbolic end of the
Vietnam War. That’s the important part
of understanding – I’m a boomer – my generation, a little bit younger, where
the sixties was exciting and chaotic, but what an amazing time. You could say the same thing about the
seventies and eighties, but Civil Rights, and Vietnam, and the space race, and
British Invasion, and music. It was
just. . .In terms of the sociology of religious/spiritual experiences, you
know, William James talks about oceanic experiences, heightened reality. The sixties was very much shaped like that to
the point in the seventies when I felt the culture and events were quieting
down, a real kind of psychic let down.
The sixties were one thing after another, amazing things: moon shots, and music, and stuff.
I graduated in 1972 and went off to the
University of California, Davis. My
first major was Anthropology, then went on to a succession of other
majors. Thought about Art History for
awhile. English. What do you do with English? And then International Relations was one
major. American Studies. Finally, at the beginning of my senior year,
I changed to Religious Studies. I liked
learning about religion. I was raised Congregational
in New England for a couple years.
Presbyterian in California, the Bay Area, early-sixties. But as with you, my dad was raised Wisconsin Synod
Lutheran which is to the right of Missouri Synod, extremely conservative. My mom was raised Ohio Presbyterian. So in the early-sixties we stopped going to
church, in California. I flunked out of
Cub Scouts. I wasn’t interested in Merit
Badges, tying ropes and things. I was
into reading and writing poetry and thinking about being a Naval Officer or a
poet or an astronaut.
I can remember a Gray-Y which is a
YMCA youth group, fifth grade/sixth grade, I loved that. My dad and I used to go to the Presbyterian
Church in junior high, just my dad and me.
I think my dad was a little bit more spiritual and religious than my
mother, probably from his war experiences.
So I majored in Religious
Studies. Graduated from UC-Davis in
1976.
M: In
your final year? So you had to take all
the classes for the major?
FT: Well, I’d caught a few before that. What really excited me. . .Well, two
things. I really enjoyed reading about
Judaism and Buddhism. Christianity, I
kind of grew up with that, was old hat.
It still is. I learned to
distinguish my spiritual soul journey as distinct from the institutional
church. You may of heard it in my
sermon. In college I took part in a freshman
year honors Humanities curriculum at UC-Davis called Integrated Studies –
interdisciplinary – which is how education should be. So, History, Religion, Science, and
Theology. It was an interdisciplinary
thing. It was fabulous.
M: Same group of students?
FT: Same group of students. It’s still there. Integrated Studies. Many lived in the same dorm. I lived in a separate dorm. We’re reading Nietzsche and the Bible as
literature, which is how I think it actually should be read. Not for beliefs and creeds. I think that’s secondary. Or even moral codes. It’s the stories of people gathering
themselves as communities with the idea of being one god and a revelation they
experienced, how that’s interpreted over the years and how it’s evolved. So for me it really is a story of a people of
faith, and as literature. I think it
gets reduced when you talk about beliefs and creeds, and a lot of people
interpret it that way.
I started reading Nietzsche and Altizer
and Hamilton, all these death of God theologians. You may have read about them, the
late-sixties. That was fabulous. Some think the real death of God. How can you believe in God after Auschwitz? Have you ever been to a concentration camp?
M: I have not.
FT: I have a strong German background from my
father, a POW, and I was at Buckenwald ten years ago and. . . That’s another
thing to talk about, the experience of a heightened spiritual experience of
trauma. I was walking to the camp and I
physically stopped and I had to force myself to go farther. It’s quite interesting.
So, other than death of God theologians,
some of the say the real death of God or how imagery of God. . .
M: What does that mean, the death of God?
FT: Literally, some people felt God had died,
literally. Others felt symbolically,
metaphorically, theologically, that one image of God. . .Kind of like Thomas
Kuhn’s ideas of scientific revolution. A
paradigm. There’s a thesis, and idea,
and opposite idea, and antithesis, they wrestle into a new third way, a
synthesis results. So language about God
gets worn and dies and goes through chaos and emptiness into a new language,
new imagery of God emerges, which I think actually characterizes the human
experience. It explains all the
denominations and religions.
M: Is that the same as a planet not being a
planet anymore?
FT: It depends on how you define that. Some believe in the ontological death of God,
others felt it was more symbolic . . .Certain kinds of religious imagery and
language had died and would now have to give way to another kind. When Harvey Cox was writing, talking about
the secular society in the sixties, he felt religion had died. The death of God came out of that. It was exciting for me cuz of the risk
incurred they’re taking in terms of religion, beliefs and creeds, and maybe our
experience of God which always, of course, comes through our bodies – that was
my sermon on Sunday – it comes through our minds. You know, Kant, we shape our experience
through idealism, our ideas. Those
things really die and then something else emerges from creation.
So I started reading theology on my
own. Altizer and Nietzsche and then
started the Episcopal Church in Davis. Went off to do an MTS program at the Church
Divinity School at the Pacific.. . the graduate Theological Union at Berkeley.
M: What’s an MTS?
FT: Master of Theological Studies program. Not an academic masters, not an MD, going off
to ordination. I had no thought about
ministry. I was interested in an MTS, a
practical degree about theology and the arts.
I found my interest in 1978 and it still is a passion. Theology and the arts: music, poetry, literature, consciousness,
sociology, peace and justice, what else, you know. Buddhism.
While I was there I experienced a intentional faith community for the
first time, with Daily Offices of Morning Prayer, Eucharist, Evening Prayer, Compline. Those are the four traditional Daily Offices
of the Episcopal Church that divide . . .the Eucharist is important, but the
Daily Offices where, like, the monks, they have silence at night, early
evening, they have Morning Prayer, breakfast, Eucharist all in silence. They work, they’re in the world. They have NoonDay Diurnum Prayers. Afternoon, working, studying. Five PM Evening Prayer. Supper.
Compline, eight o’clock silence.
I really liked that order.
M: These are who?
FT: These are the Daily Offices of the Episcopal
Church. Somewhat similar to Catholic.
M: But the people, you said the monks?
FT: The Episcopal Church had monks. I started going to the Order of the Holy
Cross, which is an Anglican men’s order in Santa Barbara, California, and also
in West Park, New York, I was just there.
Actually I had gone to them before seminary. I was attracted by, a friend of mine brought
me there. But the intentional religious
community of which, as you realize, is happening again. People are intentionally getting together,
pooling resources, forming communities.
Nothing to do with church, but prayer, fellowship, study. One strand of that is called Emerging
Christianity. Are you familiar with
that? Emerging Christianity. Brian McLaren. Diana Butler-Bass. Emerging Christianity. Pretty much a 21st Century,
rediscovering a Christian way of the first three centuries before the Nicene
Creed came in, the 4th Century and Christianity, an illegal movement
of fellowship, a way of discipleship and faith and transformation. Then gets subsumed into empire and church and
here we are. I read about them.
I transferred into the MDiv. Was ordained, knowing and not knowing what I
was getting in for.
M: This was where?
FT: This was at Grace Cathedral. I was ordained in the Episcopal Diocese of
California, Grace Cathedral. Deacon,
’83. Preacher in ’84. Without going through all the details, I was
a Curat Assistant at a parish in Menlo Park, California for three years. I was Rector, like here, at an Episcopal
Church in San Rafael, California for three years and a suburban church. .
.while I was in Menlo Park I was part-time Chaplain at a K-5 Christian
school. I loved that. Just teaching Bible. Fifth and sixth graders. I was part-time Episcopal Chaplain at
Stanford for a year. I enjoyed
that. Then went to San Rafael, suburban,
inward looking. I was already thinking
about, I wanted to do more in terms of study.
. . I was thinking about being a therapist or academic. I was interested in theology and
psychology. I discovered the writings of
C.G. Jung and archetypal psychology.
James Hillman. The Inner
Life. Spirituality. Consciousness. The arts.
It is very holistic. I love that.
I applied for a doctorate in theology and
psychology at Emory, I got a couple calls from the department. My GREs were so-so that year. I had test anxiety. Didn’t get in. Should’ve applied the second year. But we all have our regrets.
Went off to do, in ’89, what’s called
Advanced Clinical Pastoral Education, which is hospital chaplaincy. Every Seminarian has to do what’s called
Clinical Pastoral Education when they’re in Seminary. One basic unit. Ten to twelve weeks in a hospital. Groups of 6, 12, 18 Seminarians. You’re serving as a Hospital Chaplain. Half the time you’re in a small group
basically doing small group therapy. Verbatims. Case studies.
It’s very intensive. You first
learn that the verbatims you write by memory, twenty to one hundred exchanges
between you and me. The verbatim is not
about you and the patient, they’re all about you and what you’re experiencing
and how you have to go into your own inner life, into your own inner homework,
and you’re going to get out of the way of being a Pastor to a patient. That’s called Clinical Pastoral
Education. Seminarians like it or they
hate it. I liked it. I grew up in kind of a fractious family. Mom and dad had their problems. They separated, got back together. Pretty bad arguments. Some alcohol stuff.
So I finished Advanced Clinical Pastoral
Education at Hartford Hospital in Connecticut in ’91. Two years.
I fell into interim work, would come in as the Interim Transitional Priest
in a Parish where the Priest just resigned or left. You’re there for a year and a half helping
this Parish to transition while they search for a new permanent clergy.
M: This is in Connecticut still?
FT: Connecticut and Rhode Island. Had a great experience in a place called Stonington
Connecticut, on the shore. It was the
first time I felt really that we kind of matched in terms of interests. Bright New Englanders. Didn’t take religion too seriously. They love the arts and community and they
weren’t holier than thou and closed evangelical. Really kind of a meeting of the minds and
soul.
Came back to California. I was the Rector of a church in San Jose,
California from ’94-’99. During that
time I was really getting burned out in the institutional church. I could’ve caught better advice from the Bishop
and Spiritual Directors in terms of hang in there. But my beliefs were changing. I went to see my Bishop in the Diocese of El
Camino Real in ’98 or so. El Camino Real
is South Bay, California, down to the Central Coast. I think there are five or six Diocese in
California.
The Episcopal Church are Diocese,
geographical areas. One Bishop. Cathedral usually. And then Parishes. Forty to seventy parishes in a Diocese. We’re in one Diocese here called Utah. Bishop Scott Hayashi.
I went to see the Bishop in ’98 and said,
“Bishop, my beliefs are changing.” I
said, “I’m probably one part Episcopal, one part Unitarian, very New England,
theist to diest, or even agnostic or atheist.
Unitarians have room for all that.
One part Episcopal, one part Unitarian, one part Reformed Jew. I like the Jewish background stuff. That’s fundamental. One part Buddhist. Without that I could not be a priest in terms
of the awareness that the real transformation happens in one’s mind and heart
and body, we shape our reality by discovering the contents of how we think and
feel. We can shape that. So, one part Episcopal, one part Unitarian,
one part Reformed Jew, one part Buddhist, one part Humanist. The Bishop kind of laughed nervously and
said, nervously, “Well that sounds like Episcopal to me.” So I wasn’t alone.
I always wanted to write. I had a calling to write in junior high. I read Thomas Wolfe and Tolkien and started
writing poetry. I was the coeditor of
the creative writing magazine at Freemont High School in Sunnyvale, California. It’s interesting how with something so close
and powerful and passionate itself is scary.
“Can I do it?” I had been walking
back and forth with that for forty years.
I have journals full of ideas. So
I need to un- this. Do I get an MFA in
creative writing? What am I gonna do
with that? So a Masters in Journalism
makes sense.
M: Sounds practical.
FT: Mid-forties?
No. That’s my father’s
voice. “Be practical.” So I was on the waiting list at Columbia. Got into Missouri and Northwestern.
Great programs. They’re well-known for
that; they might be the top three, maybe.
I went to Northwestern. They were
very much hands on. A one year
program. Well received. I hated it for two quarters. Hated it.
They wanted journalistic writing, which is not what I really wanted to
do. I wanted to do more creative,
imaginative, left-brain/right-brain together.
But I stuck it out. Made the
program my own. There was one course,
law and media at the law school. I loved
that. I thought about law school.
M: What year is this?
FT: This was ’99 to 2000. The law school class, I loved. The dean was wanting me to think about going
to law school. Mid-forties. I can’t afford that. And then, the last quarter there, I took. . .
Northwestern is known for the hands-on.
Columbia, Missouri is kind of theoretical, which I think I actually
would’ve enjoyed. Northwestern has a
campus in Chicago and one in D.C.
Hands-on. Different areas of
emphasis: economic, urban, so on.
M: Northwestern has a campus in D.C.?
FT: It’s their hands-on. It’s kind of a small department. You actually write articles for local
newspapers, and get published. So you’ll
find my byline on various things about technology and business in Chicago
newspapers. Somewhere out there. I actually had facility for that, opening
lines and things. I enjoyed that.
Then I took a course in playwriting. It was fabulous. It was absolutely fabulous. I convinced Northwestern to honor that as a
writing course. I could ‘B+’ the other
courses. It’s limited, concise. But then I got an ‘A’ in playwriting. Part time, Masters program, at Northwestern
in playwriting attracting folks from across the country. Mid-career folks, like me. Teaching, acting, writing. Northwestern is known for their drama
school. A lot of folks came out of
there: Charlton Heston, Jerry Orbach,
Julia Louis-Dreyfus. She didn’t finish,
but in the alumni magazine, she’s on there, looking great! They’re known for their drama school. You’d know that, I’m sorry. I loved that course.
Then I left Chicago. I had some money. During that time I began rediscovering my own
spiritual soul journey apart from the church.
I had to do that. I realized that
faith was still a part of my life.
M: Were you going to church all this time?
FT: I went to an Episcopal church, Unitarian,
American Baptist, during that time. I
explored.
M: There’s a chapel right there on campus,
Northwestern.
FT: Yea. I
knew the chaplain at the time, Jackie Schwartz.
She was close to retirement.
So I left.
Moved back. I stayed with friends
for several months in the East while I looked for a job mainly in school
chaplaincies. I’m not sure about parish
work. It’s hard to find a job in
chaplains. There are fewer of those,
whether school or university, private school, there’s not as many. It’s a real close network. Usually they get young folks right out of
Seminary or they’ve been chaplains their entire life. Getting interviews. Nothing.
I fell into interim work again.
Maryland’s eastern shore.
So in the past 13 years I’ve done mainly
interim work. Transition.
M: That’s when a local church. . .
FT: A Pastor has left, a Rector has left. They bring in a discern and call a new Priest;
a year, a year and half it takes.
Interim comes in full-time to manage them through Transition. A lot of times it’s challenging. You’re dealing with messy situations,
financially, boundaries, problems with the Priest, problem in the congregation,
they’ve been split. Remember the last
twelve years have been all that stuff in the Episcopal Church, reflected in the
parish in terms of ordination of people regardless of gender orientation. At the parish level, acting out in schisms
and declining numbers. The Episcopal
Church and all mainline churches since the sixties. You know this as a sociologist, they’ve been
declining for fifty years. Right now,
the average attendance in an Episcopal Church, across the country, is 61. Sixty-one people. That’s the average across the country.
M: During a Sunday service?
FT: Sunday worship entirely. We have fewer than 2 million Episcopalians in
our country. We’re the smallest
denomination. The decline has been that
rapid. Not just in our church, but in
other churches as well. I think, also,
culturally. It comes from the Pew
research polls. People feel free to
identify themselves as unchurched, atheist, agnostic, changing faith
traditions, which you would not have done 50 years ago.
So I fell into interim work. I went to two long-term calls, neither of
which had taken care of their financial business, neither of which could afford
a full-time priest.
M: Long-terms calls meaning. . .
FT: A Rector.
Good churches. They could not
afford a full-time priest. One was quite
negative and undermining, in Kentucky, I won’t mention where. I did hospice. That was also challenging. I went to Minnesota and, again, a parish that
could not afford a full-time priest, but they were positive. We moved them into what is called Total
Ministry, which is gathering a lay group of people, laity, they go through a
three-year program of formation studying.
And then about five to six to seven people, one’s ordained a priest,
deacon, evangelist, pastoral care provider, teacher, outreach coordinator. A team for a local parish. All the sacramental duties. They’re ordained and commissioned for that
parish. They can’t do it anywhere else. That’s called Total Ministry. It’s working in Minnesota, in places where
they can’t afford a priest. Without the
overhead, it’s actually given birth to mission and ministry and hands-on
involved in the community without the high-priced priest.
I’d been looking for a long-term call for
a number of years.
M: Where do you look? Is it like in academics where there’s a
journal. . .
FT: There are resources. There’s the National Episcopal Church. They have a website. There are two other websites that have
information. I’m also late-fifties,
early-sixties. There are a lot of young
folks getting calls. That’s a fact. I’m also more expensive than younger
people. But I’m now the Rector
here. I know it’s a long story. I have tenure. I’ll be here. . .I’m 61. . . I could be here for 11 more years.
M: They have something called tenure?
FT: When you’re Rector you’re the priest with
automatic tenure unless you have problems with conduct, boundaries, financial
malfeasance, I’m here as long as I see the call is here. Interim is just short-term.
M: And as far as you can see they have the
funds to . . .
FT: As far as I can tell, yeah. It’s a health parish on the whole. You seen some of the numbers in your
observations.
I gave you a fairly institutional
chronology there. Some of my own
journey. Diverse denominational
background. I was on the verge of becoming
a Jesus Freak out of high school, but I backed off intuitively aware that there
are many ways to God and not just one. I
knew that in the sixties. That’s
actually a very Episcopal way of doing things.
We are pretty much non-doctrinaire.
We’re neither Catholic nor Protestant. We’re kind of in between. Different.
So my journey: church ministry and then. . .It’s like my
faith suddenly was going beyond the institutional church. “Am I still a believer?” I’m my own kind of believer. Then I came back to ministry. I eventually realized that you have to follow
your own journey whether it fits in the church or not. That’s the background. That’s a long answer, isn’t it?
M: So you’ve ended up, at least at this point.
. . I don't know what you’re going to do in the future, but at this point
you’re still in a pretty institutional position. You’re in a bureaucratic. . .your position is
bureaucratic. You’re an
administrator. You’re not just a
preacher. You take care of funds,
probably. You probably have to
discipline people below you, if need be.
FT: Which is already happening. Staff stuff.
In the Episcopal Church, if the church is
self-sufficient it’s called a parish.
When it is not. . . actually the Diocese of Utah is flush with money. That’s unusual. They had a hospital. The Episcopal Church, I’ve learned, has some
real history in Utah going back to almost as early as the Mormons. That’s not well-known. Episcopalians were somehow here early, or at
the same time. So they had some kind of
grounding more than other denominations.
West Coast, Catholic, Roman Catholic, Spanish, or Evangelical. The Southeast, North Carolina, South
Carolina, very Episcopal. New England,
Unitarian, Congregational.
Upper-Midwest, Catholic, Lutheran; Minnesota, very much.
A parish has a Rector. They are self-supporting. If you’re not self-supporting you are a
mission with a Vicar. We have a Rector
here even though we’re technically a mission, but we’re on the edge because we
really operate as a parish and that’s going to be changed within the next year
of the Diocese because we’re getting funds from the Diocese but not after this
year. It’s a special case. We really are functioning on our own, but
we’re still getting funds from the Diocese.
M: When you’re a Parish you stop getting funds
from the Diocese?
FT: And you’re on your own through stewardship,
pledges, tithing, rent the space out to other organizations. Our attendance right now is like 120,
130. That’s what’s called a
Pastoral-sized church. Arlin Rothaughe,
25 years ago, priest and sociologist, did some studies of the demographics of
church as a social institution.
Everything, across the board:
academic communities, military, everything, as an institution, family
systems, organization. He discovered
that churches operate differently.
Clergy operate differently depending on the size of the church. Family-size churches, 0-50 membership, Sunday
morning. Pastoral, 50-140,150
membership, the old term was, a lot of people still use that, Program 150 plus,
to 250-300. Then there are called
Corporate Resource Organizations.
Cathedrals, board of directors, all kinds of missions, administry,
social involvement. Were a Pastoral-size
parish here, 120-130.
M: So these terms are across the board,
different types of religions.
FT: Clergy function differently in different
sized organizations. In Pastoral, the
clergy is at the center of parish life.
Family is smaller, usually the clergy is on the edge while the
patriarchs and matriarchs of the church run the place.
M: So the clergy are a group of people who run
the organization.
FT: Ordained clergy. But in different sized organizations the
function differently. That’s
sociologically interesting. Folks
understand, “Oh, that’s why churches aren’t the same across the board.” They really are different depending on their
size.
M: So here, in your Pastoral-size church the
clergy are mainly the people who are, forgive my terminology, wearing the
outfits during the ceremony.
FT: No.
I’m the only ordained clergy.
There’s Father Jeff on Sunday who is also ordained. No one else is.
M: You have on your website these three other
people.
FT: They are assisting, retired, clergy. They’re associates. They’re retired assisting clergy.
M: So that’s why you’re here.
FT: I was called to be Rectorum. They went through, actually, a short
search. They convinced the Diocese,
“We’re healthy.” I think for better or
for worse they think that they would rather not go through transition before I
came here. That would’ve been helpful. They went through a short search. I think the Diocese gave them a number of names,
they went through those. I feel blessed
and lucky because many times I’ve moved around so much, and people won’t. .
.first paper cut, bing, “He won’t stay.”
And my age, I’m 61.
M: Your use of the term “calling” is not the
same as, say, the people in the LDS Church use “calling.”
FT: I’m not sure how they call it.
M: God didn’t tell you to come here, did He?
FT: I’m not sure how they understand that.
M: And I don’t either. I thought maybe you’d know better.
FT: I think all of us, when we actually discover
a vocation that excites us, that involves head, heart, energy, joy, body,
there’s always frustrations, that those are all spiritual calls. In the secular world they’re called
vocations. You have a vocation
here. I see it in your energy, in your
joy, and your intellectual. So I was not
hired here, I was called by the vestry, the bishop. The authority really is, in the Episcopal
Church, this is complicated, the bishop is really acting through the vestry.
M: And the vestry is the group here.
FT: A lay group of people who get together once a
month, and they’re in charge of finances and buildings and grounds, which we do
together. I’m in charge of everything
else.
The history of the Episcopal Church is, we
came out of the English Reformation, Luther, and then the Counter Reformation,
and then there was Henry VIII in England.
I get confused here, there’s Zwingli, Calvinists and Presbyterians,
Switzerland. You know the history better
than I do. We came out of the Church of
England. Technically, according to
Richard Hooker, 1600s, early Anglican Episcopal bishop, defined us as neither
Rome nor Reformed. We’re neither
Catholic nor Protestant, even though we used to be called the Protestant
Episcopal Church in the United States.
Thirty years ago we dropped the word “Protestant.” We’re just now the Episcopal Church. We’re like a third way. Roman Catholic, Protestant, Episcopal, Anglican,
Eastern Orthodox, and then Pentecostal, non-denominational, Bible Churches that
come out of a kind of Protestant. . .You know the flow chart. We’re like a third way which actually appeals
to my way of thinking. There’s a
baptismal covenant in which we’re all called to ministries, lay or ordained,
and that’s been revived the last thirty-five years, the baptismal covenant. We’re all called to ministry in the Church,
to participate, do things. Lay
read. Bring [something] to the sick. The soup kitchen which is fabulous here. Grace Church is known for their soup kitchen
which has groups participating from all over St. George including many Mormon
Churches. We’re the only one in town, as
far as I know, that’s five days a week.
A soup kitchen, hands-on compassion.
That’s a sign of active, modern, 21st Century church. Hands-on outreach. It’s one of the reasons why I came
here. They’re welcoming. They’re progressive. We have former Mormons. We welcome the LGBT community here. We have room for liberal, conservative, and
moderate Episcopalians; I’m more former left, more moderate now. Welcoming.
The service is the Eucharist, which is kind of Catholic but our own way
of doing that. So they’re known for
being welcoming, progressive, open theologically. A lot of folks here are transplants from
elsewhere so they’re not entrenched in, like, Virginia where it’s the way
things have always been. They’re open to
change and new ideas. I think hopefully
you heard Sunday, I think the response to sermons. . .They’re interested
intellectually in ideas and more ways of serving their community.
Anything else about the Episcopal
Church? We’re known as people of the via
media, we’re called the people of the middle way. Some folks feel that’s kind of wishy-washy,
watered-down. Not Catholic, not
Protestant. Actually, it’s quite
creative. We take. . .In many ways of
thinking. Not just Catholic, Protestant,
liberal, conservative, left-brain/right-brain, dualism. We take those opposites, we listen in a dance
into hopefully a synthesis will emerge, a new way of thinking, new
paradigm. That way of thinking appeals
to me as an Episcopal Priest.
M: Wouldn’t you say that socially, at least in
America, and politically, the Episcopal Church tends to lean more towards the
left than the right?
FT: Probably now.
Fifty years ago we were known as the church of the mainstream, the
upper-middle-class, rich republicans, morning prayer would’ve been used on
Sunday morning instead of Eucharist.
Eucharist would’ve been one Sunday a month. The liturgical reform meant, thirty years ago when we came back and claimed mass,
Holy Eucharist as the Sunday service, morning prayer during the week. I miss morning prayer. So right now, yes, because we’ve been at the
forefront in terms of AIDS, of gender equality, women being ordained, folks who
happen to be gay being ordained: Gene
Robinson. The Episcopal Church has
adopted the United Nations Millennium Development Goals in terms of reaching
out, in terms of health, education for children and for women, combating poverty. We’ve adopted those things. So now we’re probably on the left, yes,
because of women, orientation. We were
the pioneers. . . actually the Christian Church, I think, it started in
California, the whole AIDS thing, remember, in the early-80s. We were one of the first churches to come out
and say, “Everyone is welcome here. AIDS
is not a stigma, it’s a disease. It
could happen to anybody.” Now we see it
spreading in our country among heterosexuals.
We were among the first to say, “This is just a disease.” There was no comment among the Evangelicals,
you know, “This is God’s wrath.” So now
we’ve been known as left, even though for a long time a pretty traditional, conservative,
institutional, status quo, republican church.
That is kind of our roots, 50-75 years ago. There are wings of liberal and all that, but
we were much more establishment, institutional, cautious, traditional. You heard about the Prayer Book, we have a
Prayer Book, 1979. That came in 1979 to
replace the 1928 Prayer Book. Good
hymnal too. Great hymns! But the Prayer Book, that’s
controversial. The 1928 Prayer book, the
one most folks grew up in. And when the
’79 came through there was resistance.
The purpose of that was to go from traditional, penitential language, to
more contemporary, more joyful language.
So there’s a “Rite I” and there’s a “Rite II.” Page 323, “Rite I.” Traditional.
“Thees” and “Thys.” Page 355 . .
.I bet you’re impressed that I know these pages. . .
M: It’s your job.
FT: I miss the Prayer Book. We’ve been changing our Bulletin. “Rite II,” contemporary language. No “thees” and “thys.”
M: And on your bulletin it said “Rite I” or
“Rite II.”
FT: It says “Rite II.” It should say “Rite II” because we’re using
“Rite II.”
M: So you always use the “Rite II”?
FT: They have here for some time. It used to be in main churches, “Rite I” 8
0’clock, “Rite II” 10 o’clock. They got
rid of 8 o’clock years ago and the 5:30.
Both services here – 5:30, 10:30 – are “Rite II” contemporary.
M: Using contemporary language.
FT: No “thees” and “thys.” And that’s why I recently brought in the
contemporary “Lord’s Prayer” cuz we should know both. They’re using the traditional.
M: When we turned on Wednesday to that in here
it had both of them on the same page. I
got confused, I started reading the left. . .
FT: Episcopalians should know both. Unashamedly, we should know both. In our bulletin, we’ll be changing Mass,
we’ll be using the Prayer Book more.
Twenty years ago the Church thought, “Our service is so confusing.” Bulletin, Prayer Book, Hymn Book. Each church you go to is the same learning
curve. That’s comprehensive. For me, it’s not inviting. It’s hard to read. Too much stuff in there.
M: The Prayer Book?
FT: The Bulletin.
The Sunday Bulletin, too much stuff to read. When you simplify it, like a Table of
Contents, and use the Prayer Book, which is easier. We’re known as the people with the Book of
Common Prayer. That’s the Episcopal
Church. The Book of Common Prayer among
folks here, and England, is considered one of the jewels of English
literature. You’ll see that among folks,
Shakespeare, T.S. Eliot, all the Enlgish writers. A certain kind of Anglican language. The heightened, not fussy, but poetry. . .The
Book of Common Prayer. Joan Didion named
one of her books A Book of Common Prayer. In England it’s considered part of our
heritage, The Prayer Book, of ways. . .In here there’s outlines of faith. There are Psalms, there are prayers, there
are all the daily offices. This document
for daily spiritual practices.
M: Tell me, how do I make sense of this. I was trying to . . .(I point to somewhere in
the book).
FT: That’s a calendar of saints and martyrs, which
we don’t really follow. That’s more
anglo-Catholic. That’s a good
question. But we do use that on
Wednesday, Holy Women Holy Men, which is a modern version of this. But this is more anglo-Catholic.
We are right now in what’s called the
season . . .you have the liturgical calendar here. We need to get one. We’re in now the season after Pentecost. Advent. . .am I going too fast?
M: No.
Advent is Christmas time.
FT: Advent, four Sundays, late November up to
Christmas Eve. Four Sundays. It’s called Advent. There are themes. We have that in common with Catholics. And now that’s the season being brought into
more Protestant Churches. Thirty years
ago you wouldn’t find churches doint that much.
I think that’s probably our influence.
Advent.
Christmas, two Sundays. Then the
season of Epiphany. Which is,
literature, epiphinas, revelation,
manifestation, James Joyce’s. . .have you seen the film The Dead? Great film. James Joyce, The Dead. Good stuff. There’s an Epiphany party and there are epiphanies
that appear in the story. Very James
Joyce.
So, Advent. Christmas.
Epiphany. Lent, five, six plus
weeks. We don’t use the word “Alleluia,” don’t have weddings, probably not
burials. During lent. Then it’s Easter season, six weeks. And then there’s Pentecost which is a Jewish
festival that Christians appropriated.
The Spirit came to the disciples after Jesus death and
resurrection. Whether that was actual,
historical or not, that’s a long conversation.
M: This was the Holy Spirit, Pentecost?
FT: Pentecost.
Same spirit. People experienced
God and Jesus comes to the disciples.
And that’s called the birth of the church.
M: And that’s when it all made sense to them.
FT: I’m not sure it made sense. But they, however they describe that, is that
the same experience of the Holy, of soul, of presence, which they experienced
through Jesus, cuz there are a lot of theories about Jesus the only church,
some people considered him a prophet, messiah, Jewish messiah, Christian
messiah, are two different things, Son of God, literally or symbolically. When the Nicene Creed came in the early 4th
Century many people did not agree with them.
In the old church there were many ways of interpreting Jesus which you
know now from reading Time Magazine. Early church ideas are now okay to talk about
now. For a long time there was one
teaching. The Nicene Creed. Before that there were many ways of
interpreting that.
So the Pentecost. . .The story is, they
were praying, the sound of a rushing wind, tongues of fire, speaking in
tongues, however you understand that, but they experienced the same sense of
presence. Which may happen in life. Church, out of church. Sailing.
Running. Love. Combat.
Life and death. Solitude. Transcendent, heightened ecstatic experiences
for me are naturally human experiences that often times are too badly reduced
to church when they’re naturally human appearing. Sailing.
We’ve all experienced what Maslow called peak experiences.
And so there’s the Pentecost and so we’re
in the season after Pentecost. In the
back of the Prayer Book there’s what’s called the Lectionary which tells us the
readings to use for all the Sundays of the church.
So I think you’re doing fine. And there’s the Daily Offices during the
week. That’s different.
With many churches, we share that. Catholics, Protestants, slightly different
readings. The Lectionary. It’s divided into Year A, B, and C.
M: And we’re in B.
FT: I guess so.
M: I can see it in your trash can. It says. . .
FT: Third Pentecost.
Then we have the Daily Offices, as I
mentioned earlier, I experienced at Mount Calvary, Retreat House, the Order of
Holy Cross, in Santa Barbara, which sadly burned down about five years
ago. I was going to that before
seminary. It’s now just the Daily Office
which is a way for laity and clergy to actually practice faith, read Psalms,
study scripture, day-by-day-by-day. This
is the real heart of the Episcopal Church and any Christian denomination would
do more than Sunday. The daily lived
life of prayer, study, and silence. But
we forget it and don’t do it. So this is
outlined, every day of every week of the Church year. Every day.
M: So how do I read this. The Sunday, the first week of Advent. What do the number mean?
FT: Psalms, and readings. Daily Office.
And it’s morning, evening.
Asterisk. Morning, evening. Every day.
M: Old Testament, New Testament.
FT: This is helpful. Many of us are now calling it the Hebrew
Scriptures. The “Old Testament” is
pejorative, written by Christians. For
many of us Hebrew Scriptures are really the key. New Testament makes no sense without the
Hebrew Scriptures. That’s why I brought
back, in all three lessons. . .a year ago they had just the Gospel. They had just the Gospel here. We’re now doing all three. The reading of the Hebrew Scriptures, they’re
fantastic. Archetypal, not so much heady
theoretical, walking on water.
But this is the Daily Offices for every
day. You’ll find those on the
websites. You’ll find various websites
online for morning prayer, Book of Common Prayer.
So, Emerging Christianity, which is
kind of in-between Christianities is actually tapping into those things. Forming communities beyond institutional
church, no real creeds, they want sacramental worship, symbolic, experiential,
mystery, scripture, and real daily prayer, and involvement in the world. That’s called. . .it’s actually very
Christian. . .Emerging Christianity has rediscovered that. So Brian McLaren, Diane Butler-Bass. I wasn’t so sure about them ten years
ago. I thought, “Evangelical.” It’s fabulous. Rediscovering the first three centuries of
the faith when Christians were not known as Christians, they were called
“people of the way.” The way of
Jesus. He called disciples, sent them
out themselves, the seventy, to go and teach, heal, cast out demons, bring
peace. Whenever you do that you have
experienced Kingdom. Intentional spiritual
practices of study, prayer, teaching, healing, ministry, not proselytizing,
ministry – the poor, the homeless – that will lead to a spiritual experience, a
transformation. I’ve experienced that
myself.
M: This
is in the individual?
FT: Yes.
Which is actually a very. . .that language, sociologically, is fairly
evangelical. Catholics are known for
more institution, authority, dogma, doctrine.
Protestants are known for their emphasis on scripture, preaching,
proclaiming the Word. Anglicans, we’re known,
our three areas of authority, in the Episcopal Church are scripture, and that’s
in the Prayer Book, tradition, reason, there’s a fourth area of authority we
call experience. Scripture, that’s where
we get our authority. The Catholics are
known for dogma, doctrine, mass, institutional, church. Protestants known for scripture, teaching and
proclaiming the news, not a lot of social justice. Methodists, social justice. Episcopalians, our authority is scripture
which comes from the Protestant wing; tradition, Catholic; reason, 17th/18th
Century England/France, the enlightenment, we love ideas; experience is a nod
to the individual experience of God which is the evangelical side. Evangelicals felt you had to have that
personal, powerful, emotional, experience, which Catholics and Anglicans don’t
necessarily trust because that’s all very individualistic.
M: Cuz that contradicts the tradition and the
dogma, right?
FT: It also enhances it, augments it, it all goes
together.
M: I can see as a sociologist that it could
worry the Catholic Church, if you don’t need to go to church to experience God.
FT: Exactly.
And translating the Bible, William Tyndale translating the Bible in
England from the Latin into the vulgar tongue of England. You know what happened to him? Taken to the Tower of London and killed. So Tyndale, the early translations,
controversial, but they’re giving power away.
Power in the laity. So, the
Reformation. . .
Look at the back of the book called “An
Outline of the Faith.” That’s a pretty
good definition. I’ve used that for
Confirmation. That’s pretty good.
In my own experience, I grew up somewhat
churched, unchurched, Jesus Freak, almost, in high school.
M: What does that mean, a Jesus Freak?
FT: Late-sixties, California. Almost a hippy. Image of Jesus, teachings of Jesus, probably
kind of like your brother in terms of community, a new way of living in the
world. I was attracted to the power of
the image and reading scripture on my own.
There had to be a better way of life.
Justice, peace. This is
Vietnam. Not materialistic.
I pulled back, realizing there were many
ways to God, not just Christian.
Episcopal priest. Burned-out on
the Church. Came back. Had some very challenging experiences in
church the last ten years in which I found myself really experiencing some
anger. A number of years, until I
realized, in terms of parishes and unwelcoming, divisive leadership. That happened in the Church. I had colleagues who experienced the same
thing and left church entirely or they retired.
I came back a couple, five years
ago. I realized that I was carrying the
anger and losing my own joy. I had to,
not only forgive, I had to choose life, which is the French existentialist
choice. You read Camus and Sartre? Suicide or not? You don’t choose suicide you live your life. You construct a life of meaning. I chose to live. Immediately, in Delaware. Immediately, my brain began changing. It’s almost like being on an antidepressant,
which I’ve been on a few times in my life.
I realize now that I shape my own
thoughts through how. . .thinking, felling, that’s my Buddhist side. It’s been, not always easy, but I’ve gone
through what I call a spiritual awakening.
And one reference for that, Richard Rohr, his book called Falling Upward. A lot of people reading it right now. Their own experiences. The way of Jesus or the way of Buddha. Whatever spiritual path can be
transformative, especially, you can’t even talk about it unless you’ve gone
through a bottoming experience. And then
you realize you have a choice to live, and then how you choose to live your
life.
So I had an experience. And I can’t really explain that. This sense of an opening in my life. And think that is trans-Christianity. I had to do my own inner-work.
I joined the Episcopal Church
because we are sacramental, progressive, welcoming, I like our via media way of
thinking, intellectual church. We love
symbols. Rich liturgy. We have great music. And we’re very social justice oriented.
M: I listen to the local Christian stations as
part of research, they’re all national things, Christian Satellite Network
which is, I guess, a Bible oriented, evangelical station. It’s just people teaching. They’re always men. Not a lot of music, just teachings. One that was on before I came to your
Saturday night service, he was talking about justice. He didn’t like the idea. Justice, he says, leads to Socialism. Then in your service you started using the
term social justice.
FT: It’s not partisan. Justice is in the prophets. And what is justice? It is economic equity. It is sharing. There’s plenty to share. Abundance.
The haves and have-nots.
I could be . . .I thought about
registering Socialist in high school. I
thought with my cautious side, “Do I want to put my name on a list
someplace? No.” I could be a Social . . .What’s the term in
Germany? Social Democrat? Christian Socialist. I could be a Christian Socialist. There are a lot of us. Not partisan Communists, but that the economic
system is the problem. There are
different ways, Scandinavian ways of doing that which is much more shared and
you all contribute so that all are raised up.
M: These different Christian beliefs. . .I
don’t know which comes first. . .Obviously this Christian Satallite Network is
politically a conservative station. They
even point these things, how we are in the end times now, and they’ll say that
we can see what’s going on in, you know, Iraq and we can show that in the
Bible, so it’s a very politically conservative.
FT: It’s called literalism. Which we don’t tie into. We don’t interpret the Bible literally. You heard me Sunday. It’s all that the world is bad, humanity is
bad and fallen and that’s their experience.
I and others don’t feel that.
It’s a very Jewish idea that this is creation. God called Abraham and the family to go out
into the world and God told Abraham and his family that you’ll be a source of
joy and justice to the world. That was
the Abrahamic Call. The Jewish
Call. So it’s not changed. Not changed with John the Baptist or Jesus. I think Jesus brings in transformative
parables, teachings, healings, that amplify that which is already there. No conversation about Son of God, Messiah,
there’s ways of interpreting that. I’m
not surprised to hear that. But you’ll
find people like Rick Warren is evangelical, who’s actually gone beyond moral
judgment of gays and abortion into focusing more on poverty. That’s a new evangelical movement happening
right now. Rick Warren is
influential. What was the book he wrote? The Seven
Practical Steps or something. He’s
new evangelical. Which I can read. He’s gone beyond this moral judgment,
certainty. “We should be focusing on the
poor, the outcasts.”
M: My brother must be this kind of Emerging
Christian. I’ll start talking politics
and he says he doesn’t want to talk about politics. He won’t register to vote. “I’m doing Jesus work here. I’m gonna stay out of the politics.”
FT: I think the political realm is still
important. I’m a democrat. I wish there was a socialist.
M: Bernie Sanders.
FT: I like what he says.
