tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7562408501220176542024-03-17T21:03:35.582-06:00 smithlahrman.blogspot.comMatthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.comBlogger86125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-55305092652075088462022-05-19T16:24:00.000-06:002022-05-19T16:24:01.487-06:00Interview with Father Tim, Grace Episcopal Church<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Father Tim<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Rector<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Grace Episcopal Church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">St. George, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place in
Father Tim’s office at the church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">June 15, 2015<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Father Tim., can you tell me a little bit about your biography and
how you got to where you are right now at the Grace Episcopal Church in St.
George, Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 1.0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Father Tim:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’ll try to keep it short.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First of all, thanks for your time
today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think it’s great hearing about
your biography and your honesty and frankness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We share a lot of biography, more than you realize.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 1.0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Timothy D. Raasch; a good German
name.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the middle of three children;
and older brother, younger sister.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Classic middle child.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My first
four years were in Georgia.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My father
was Air Force, World War II Army Air Corp, prisoner of war, and then got
Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees at Bradley College in Peoria.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Your
dad, or you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My Dad.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Transitioned from Air Force to Lockheed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So, four years Georgia, two years the bay area, San Jose.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two years, Manchester, New Hampshire, in the
early sixties where my dad was working on a satellite tracking station.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Came back to California, Sunnydale, Santa
Clara Valley, long before it was renamed Silicon Valley.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember the Bay Area really well in terms
of orchards and apricots and cherries and figs, and gradually computers came in
in the early-80s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember kind of
almost. . .I imagine we all have our golden ages when we were children or
adolescents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The sixties, early-70s, is
almost a golden era of America when we, mom used to say, “Go out and play all
day,” and we’d play all day, come back in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We weren’t being overscheduled in terms of junior high, high school, in
terms of college with masters and SAT scores.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I came out of Freemont High School in 1972.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We all got draft numbers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was really the symbolic end of the
Vietnam War.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the important part
of understanding – I’m a boomer – my generation, a little bit younger, where
the sixties was exciting and chaotic, but what an amazing time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You could say the same thing about the
seventies and eighties, but Civil Rights, and Vietnam, and the space race, and
British Invasion, and music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was
just. . .In terms of the sociology of religious/spiritual experiences, you
know, William James talks about oceanic experiences, heightened reality.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The sixties was very much shaped like that to
the point in the seventies when I felt the culture and events were quieting
down, a real kind of psychic let down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The sixties were one thing after another, amazing things:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>moon shots, and music, and stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I graduated in 1972 and went off to the
University of California, Davis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My
first major was Anthropology, then went on to a succession of other
majors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thought about Art History for
awhile.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>English.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What do you do with English?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then International Relations was one
major.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>American Studies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally, at the beginning of my senior year,
I changed to Religious Studies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I liked
learning about religion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was raised Congregational
in New England for a couple years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Presbyterian in California, the Bay Area, early-sixties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But as with you, my dad was raised Wisconsin Synod
Lutheran which is to the right of Missouri Synod, extremely conservative.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mom was raised Ohio Presbyterian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So in the early-sixties we stopped going to
church, in California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I flunked out of
Cub Scouts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wasn’t interested in Merit
Badges, tying ropes and things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was
into reading and writing poetry and thinking about being a Naval Officer or a
poet or an astronaut.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I can remember a Gray-Y which is a
YMCA youth group, fifth grade/sixth grade, I loved that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My dad and I used to go to the Presbyterian
Church in junior high, just my dad and me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think my dad was a little bit more spiritual and religious than my
mother, probably from his war experiences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I majored in Religious
Studies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Graduated from UC-Davis in
1976.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In
your final year?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So you had to take all
the classes for the major?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, I’d caught a few before that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What really excited me. . .Well, two
things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I really enjoyed reading about
Judaism and Buddhism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Christianity, I
kind of grew up with that, was old hat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It still is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I learned to
distinguish my spiritual soul journey as distinct from the institutional
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You may of heard it in my
sermon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In college I took part in a freshman
year honors Humanities curriculum at UC-Davis called Integrated Studies –
interdisciplinary – which is how education should be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, History, Religion, Science, and
Theology.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was an interdisciplinary
thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was fabulous.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Same group of students?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Same group of students.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s still there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Integrated Studies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Many lived in the same dorm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I lived in a separate dorm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re reading Nietzsche and the Bible as
literature, which is how I think it actually should be read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not for beliefs and creeds.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think that’s secondary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or even moral codes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s the stories of people gathering
themselves as communities with the idea of being one god and a revelation they
experienced, how that’s interpreted over the years and how it’s evolved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So for me it really is a story of a people of
faith, and as literature.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think it
gets reduced when you talk about beliefs and creeds, and a lot of people
interpret it that way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I started reading Nietzsche and Altizer
and Hamilton, all these death of God theologians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You may have read about them, the
late-sixties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was fabulous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some think the real death of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How can you believe in God after Auschwitz?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Have you ever been to a concentration camp?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I have not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I have a strong German background from my
father, a POW, and I was at Buckenwald ten years ago and. . . That’s another
thing to talk about, the experience of a heightened spiritual experience of
trauma.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was walking to the camp and I
physically stopped and I had to force myself to go farther.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s quite interesting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, other than death of God theologians,
some of the say the real death of God or how imagery of God. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What does that mean, the death of God?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Literally, some people felt God had died,
literally.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Others felt symbolically,
metaphorically, theologically, that one image of God. . .Kind of like Thomas
Kuhn’s ideas of scientific revolution.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A
paradigm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a thesis, and idea,
and opposite idea, and antithesis, they wrestle into a new third way, a
synthesis results.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So language about God
gets worn and dies and goes through chaos and emptiness into a new language,
new imagery of God emerges, which I think actually characterizes the human
experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It explains all the
denominations and religions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is that the same as a planet not being a
planet anymore?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It depends on how you define that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some believe in the ontological death of God,
others felt it was more symbolic . . .Certain kinds of religious imagery and
language had died and would now have to give way to another kind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When Harvey Cox was writing, talking about
the secular society in the sixties, he felt religion had died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The death of God came out of that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was exciting for me cuz of the risk
incurred they’re taking in terms of religion, beliefs and creeds, and maybe our
experience of God which always, of course, comes through our bodies – that was
my sermon on Sunday – it comes through our minds.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You know, Kant, we shape our experience
through idealism, our ideas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those
things really die and then something else emerges from creation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I started reading theology on my
own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Altizer and Nietzsche and then
started the Episcopal Church in Davis. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Went off to do an MTS program at the Church
Divinity School at the Pacific.. . the graduate Theological Union at Berkeley.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What’s an MTS?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Master of Theological Studies program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not an academic masters, not an MD, going off
to ordination.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had no thought about
ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was interested in an MTS, a
practical degree about theology and the arts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I found my interest in 1978 and it still is a passion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Theology and the arts:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>music, poetry, literature, consciousness,
sociology, peace and justice, what else, you know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Buddhism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>While I was there I experienced a intentional faith community for the
first time, with Daily Offices of Morning Prayer, Eucharist, Evening Prayer, Compline.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those are the four traditional Daily Offices
of the Episcopal Church that divide . . .the Eucharist is important, but the
Daily Offices where, like, the monks, they have silence at night, early
evening, they have Morning Prayer, breakfast, Eucharist all in silence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They work, they’re in the world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have NoonDay Diurnum Prayers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Afternoon, working, studying.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Five PM Evening Prayer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Supper.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Compline, eight o’clock silence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I really liked that order.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>These are who?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>These are the Daily Offices of the Episcopal
Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Somewhat similar to Catholic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But the people, you said the monks?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Episcopal Church had monks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started going to the Order of the Holy
Cross, which is an Anglican men’s order in Santa Barbara, California, and also
in West Park, New York, I was just there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Actually I had gone to them before seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was attracted by, a friend of mine brought
me there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the intentional religious
community of which, as you realize, is happening again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People are intentionally getting together,
pooling resources, forming communities.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Nothing to do with church, but prayer, fellowship, study.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One strand of that is called Emerging
Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Are you familiar with
that?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Emerging Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Brian McLaren.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Diana Butler-Bass.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Emerging Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pretty much a 21<sup>st</sup> Century,
rediscovering a Christian way of the first three centuries before the Nicene
Creed came in, the 4<sup>th</sup> Century and Christianity, an illegal movement
of fellowship, a way of discipleship and faith and transformation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then gets subsumed into empire and church and
here we are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I read about them.<span style="color: red;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I transferred into the MDiv.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Was ordained, knowing and not knowing what I
was getting in for.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This was where?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This was at Grace Cathedral.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was ordained in the Episcopal Diocese of
California, Grace Cathedral.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Deacon,
’83.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Preacher in ’84.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Without going through all the details, I was
a Curat Assistant at a parish in Menlo Park, California for three years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was Rector, like here, at an Episcopal
Church in San Rafael, California for three years and a suburban church. .
.while I was in Menlo Park I was part-time Chaplain at a K-5 Christian
school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I loved that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just teaching Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fifth and sixth graders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was part-time Episcopal Chaplain at
Stanford for a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I enjoyed
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then went to San Rafael, suburban,
inward looking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was already thinking
about, I wanted to do more in terms of study.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>. . I was thinking about being a therapist or academic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was interested in theology and
psychology.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I discovered the writings of
C.G. Jung and archetypal psychology.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>James Hillman.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Inner
Life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Spirituality.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Consciousness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The arts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It is very holistic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I love that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I applied for a doctorate in theology and
psychology at Emory, I got a couple calls from the department.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My GREs were so-so that year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had test anxiety.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Didn’t get in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Should’ve applied the second year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we all have our regrets.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Went off to do, in ’89, what’s called
Advanced Clinical Pastoral Education, which is hospital chaplaincy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every Seminarian has to do what’s called
Clinical Pastoral Education when they’re in Seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One basic unit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ten to twelve weeks in a hospital.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Groups of 6, 12, 18 Seminarians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re serving as a Hospital Chaplain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Half the time you’re in a small group
basically doing small group therapy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Verbatims<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">. </i><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Case studies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s very intensive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You first
learn that the verbatims you write by memory, twenty to one hundred exchanges
between you and me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The verbatim is not
about you and the patient, they’re all about you and what you’re experiencing
and how you have to go into your own inner life, into your own inner homework,
and you’re going to get out of the way of being a Pastor to a patient.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s called Clinical Pastoral
Education.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Seminarians like it or they
hate it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I liked it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I grew up in kind of a fractious family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mom and dad had their problems.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They separated, got back together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pretty bad arguments.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some alcohol stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I finished Advanced Clinical Pastoral
Education at Hartford Hospital in Connecticut in ’91.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I fell into interim work, would come in as the Interim Transitional Priest
in a Parish where the Priest just resigned or left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re there for a year and a half helping
this Parish to transition while they search for a new permanent clergy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is in Connecticut still?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Connecticut and Rhode Island.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Had a great experience in a place called Stonington
Connecticut, on the shore.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was the
first time I felt really that we kind of matched in terms of interests.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Bright New Englanders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Didn’t take religion too seriously.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They love the arts and community and they
weren’t holier than thou and closed evangelical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Really kind of a meeting of the minds and
soul.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Came back to California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was the Rector of a church in San Jose,
California from ’94-’99.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During that
time I was really getting burned out in the institutional church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I could’ve caught better advice from the Bishop
and Spiritual Directors in terms of hang in there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But my beliefs were changing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to see my Bishop in the Diocese of El
Camino Real in ’98 or so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>El Camino Real
is South Bay, California, down to the Central Coast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think there are five or six Diocese in
California.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Episcopal Church are Diocese,
geographical areas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One Bishop.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cathedral usually.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then Parishes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Forty to seventy parishes in a Diocese.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re in one Diocese here called Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Bishop Scott Hayashi.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I went to see the Bishop in ’98 and said,
“Bishop, my beliefs are changing.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
said, “I’m probably one part Episcopal, one part Unitarian, very New England,
theist to diest, or even agnostic or atheist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Unitarians have room for all that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>One part Episcopal, one part Unitarian, one part Reformed Jew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I like the Jewish background stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s fundamental.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One part Buddhist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Without that I could not be a priest in terms
of the awareness that the real transformation happens in one’s mind and heart
and body, we shape our reality by discovering the contents of how we think and
feel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We can shape that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, one part Episcopal, one part Unitarian,
one part Reformed Jew, one part Buddhist, one part Humanist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bishop kind of laughed nervously and
said, nervously, “Well that sounds like Episcopal to me.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I wasn’t alone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I always wanted to write.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had a calling to write in junior high.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I read Thomas Wolfe and Tolkien and started
writing poetry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was the coeditor of
the creative writing magazine at Freemont High School in Sunnyvale, California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s interesting how with something so close
and powerful and passionate itself is scary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Can I do it?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had been walking
back and forth with that for forty years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I have journals full of ideas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So
I need to un- this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do I get an MFA in
creative writing?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What am I gonna do
with that?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So a Masters in Journalism
makes sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sounds practical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mid-forties?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s my father’s
voice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Be practical.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I was on the waiting list at Columbia.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Got into Missouri and Northwestern.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><br />
Great programs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re well-known for
that; they might be the top three, maybe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I went to Northwestern.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were
very much hands on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A one year
program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Well received.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I hated it for two quarters.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hated it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They wanted journalistic writing, which is not what I really wanted to
do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted to do more creative,
imaginative, left-brain/right-brain together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But I stuck it out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Made the
program my own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was one course,
law and media at the law school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I loved
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought about law school.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What year is this?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This was ’99 to 2000.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The law school class, I loved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The dean was wanting me to think about going
to law school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mid-forties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can’t afford that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then, the last quarter there, I took. . .
Northwestern is known for the hands-on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Columbia, Missouri is kind of theoretical, which I think I actually
would’ve enjoyed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Northwestern has a
campus in Chicago and one in D.C.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Hands-on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Different areas of
emphasis:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>economic, urban, so on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Northwestern has a campus in D.C.?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s their hands-on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s kind of a small department.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You actually write articles for local
newspapers, and get published.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So you’ll
find my byline on various things about technology and business in Chicago
newspapers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Somewhere out there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I actually had facility for that, opening
lines and things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I enjoyed that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then I took a course in playwriting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was fabulous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was absolutely fabulous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I convinced Northwestern to honor that as a
writing course.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I could ‘B+’ the other
courses.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s limited, concise.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But then I got an ‘A’ in playwriting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Part time, Masters program, at Northwestern
in playwriting attracting folks from across the country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mid-career folks, like me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Teaching, acting, writing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Northwestern is known for their drama
school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of folks came out of
there:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Charlton Heston, Jerry Orbach,
Julia Louis-Dreyfus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She didn’t finish,
but in the alumni magazine, she’s on there, looking great!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re known for their drama school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’d know that, I’m sorry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I loved that course.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then I left Chicago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had some money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During that time I began rediscovering my own
spiritual soul journey apart from the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I had to do that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I realized that
faith was still a part of my life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you going to church all this time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I went to an Episcopal church, Unitarian,
American Baptist, during that time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
explored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There’s a chapel right there on campus,
Northwestern.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
knew the chaplain at the time, Jackie Schwartz.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>She was close to retirement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Moved back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I stayed with friends
for several months in the East while I looked for a job mainly in school
chaplaincies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m not sure about parish
work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s hard to find a job in
chaplains.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are fewer of those,
whether school or university, private school, there’s not as many.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a real close network.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Usually they get young folks right out of
Seminary or they’ve been chaplains their entire life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Getting interviews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nothing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I fell into interim work again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Maryland’s eastern shore.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So in the past 13 years I’ve done mainly
interim work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Transition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s when a local church. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A Pastor has left, a Rector has left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They bring in a discern and call a new Priest;
a year, a year and half it takes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Interim comes in full-time to manage them through Transition.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of times it’s challenging.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re dealing with messy situations,
financially, boundaries, problems with the Priest, problem in the congregation,
they’ve been split.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Remember the last
twelve years have been all that stuff in the Episcopal Church, reflected in the
parish in terms of ordination of people regardless of gender orientation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At the parish level, acting out in schisms
and declining numbers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Episcopal
Church and all mainline churches since the sixties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You know this as a sociologist, they’ve been
declining for fifty years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Right now,
the average attendance in an Episcopal Church, across the country, is 61.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sixty-one people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the average across the country.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>During a Sunday service?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sunday worship entirely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have fewer than 2 million Episcopalians in
our country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re the smallest
denomination.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The decline has been that
rapid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not just in our church, but in
other churches as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think, also,
culturally.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It comes from the Pew
research polls.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People feel free to
identify themselves as unchurched, atheist, agnostic, changing faith
traditions, which you would not have done 50 years ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I fell into interim work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to two long-term calls, neither of
which had taken care of their financial business, neither of which could afford
a full-time priest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Long-terms calls meaning. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A Rector.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Good churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They could not
afford a full-time priest.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One was quite
negative and undermining, in Kentucky, I won’t mention where.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did hospice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was also challenging.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to Minnesota and, again, a parish that
could not afford a full-time priest, but they were positive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We moved them into what is called Total
Ministry, which is gathering a lay group of people, laity, they go through a
three-year program of formation studying.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And then about five to six to seven people, one’s ordained a priest,
deacon, evangelist, pastoral care provider, teacher, outreach coordinator.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A team for a local parish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All the sacramental duties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re ordained and commissioned for that
parish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They can’t do it anywhere else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s called Total Ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s working in Minnesota, in places where
they can’t afford a priest.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Without the
overhead, it’s actually given birth to mission and ministry and hands-on
involved in the community without the high-priced priest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’d been looking for a long-term call for
a number of years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where do you look?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is it like in academics where there’s a
journal. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are resources.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s the National Episcopal Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have a website.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are two other websites that have
information.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m also late-fifties,
early-sixties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are a lot of young
folks getting calls.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s a fact.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m also more expensive than younger
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I’m now the Rector
here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know it’s a long story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have tenure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll be here. . .I’m 61. . .<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I could be here for 11 more years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They have something called tenure?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When you’re Rector you’re the priest with
automatic tenure unless you have problems with conduct, boundaries, financial
malfeasance, I’m here as long as I see the call is here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Interim is just short-term.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And as far as you can see they have the
funds to . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As far as I can tell, yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a health parish on the whole.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You seen some of the numbers in your
observations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I gave you a fairly institutional
chronology there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of my own
journey.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Diverse denominational
background.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was on the verge of becoming
a Jesus Freak out of high school, but I backed off intuitively aware that there
are many ways to God and not just one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
knew that in the sixties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
actually a very Episcopal way of doing things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We are pretty much non-doctrinaire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re neither Catholic nor Protestant. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re kind of in between.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So my journey:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>church ministry and then. . .It’s like my
faith suddenly was going beyond the institutional church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Am I still a believer?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m my own kind of believer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I came back to ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I eventually realized that you have to follow
your own journey whether it fits in the church or not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the background.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s a long answer, isn’t it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you’ve ended up, at least at this point.
. . I don't know what you’re going to do in the future, but at this point
you’re still in a pretty institutional position.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re in a bureaucratic. . .your position is
bureaucratic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re an
administrator.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re not just a
preacher.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You take care of funds,
probably.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You probably have to
discipline people below you, if need be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Which is already happening.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Staff stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the Episcopal Church, if the church is
self-sufficient it’s called a parish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>When it is not. . . actually the Diocese of Utah is flush with money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s unusual.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had a hospital.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Episcopal Church, I’ve learned, has some
real history in Utah going back to almost as early as the Mormons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s not well-known.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Episcopalians were somehow here early, or at
the same time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they had some kind of
grounding more than other denominations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>West Coast, Catholic, Roman Catholic, Spanish, or Evangelical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Southeast, North Carolina, South
Carolina, very Episcopal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New England,
Unitarian, Congregational.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Upper-Midwest, Catholic, Lutheran; Minnesota, very much.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A parish has a Rector.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are self-supporting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you’re not self-supporting you are a
mission with a Vicar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have a Rector
here even though we’re technically a mission, but we’re on the edge because we
really operate as a parish and that’s going to be changed within the next year
of the Diocese because we’re getting funds from the Diocese but not after this
year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a special case.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We really are functioning on our own, but
we’re still getting funds from the Diocese.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When you’re a Parish you stop getting funds
from the Diocese?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you’re on your own through stewardship,
pledges, tithing, rent the space out to other organizations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our attendance right now is like 120,
130.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what’s called a
Pastoral-sized church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Arlin Rothaughe,
25 years ago, priest and sociologist, did some studies of the demographics of
church as a social institution.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Everything, across the board:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>academic communities, military, everything, as an institution, family
systems, organization.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He discovered
that churches operate differently.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Clergy operate differently depending on the size of the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Family-size churches, 0-50 membership, Sunday
morning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pastoral, 50-140,150
membership, the old term was, a lot of people still use that, Program 150 plus,
to 250-300.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then there are called
Corporate Resource Organizations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Cathedrals, board of directors, all kinds of missions, administry,
social involvement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Were a Pastoral-size
parish here, 120-130.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So these terms are across the board,
different types of religions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Clergy function differently in different
sized organizations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Pastoral, the
clergy is at the center of parish life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Family is smaller, usually the clergy is on the edge while the
patriarchs and matriarchs of the church run the place.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the clergy are a group of people who run
the organization.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ordained clergy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But in different sized organizations the
function differently.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
sociologically interesting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Folks
understand, “Oh, that’s why churches aren’t the same across the board.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They really are different depending on their
size.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So here, in your Pastoral-size church the
clergy are mainly the people who are, forgive my terminology, wearing the
outfits during the ceremony.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m the only ordained clergy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s Father Jeff on Sunday who is also ordained.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No one else is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You have on your website these three other
people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They are assisting, retired, clergy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re associates.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re retired assisting clergy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So that’s why you’re here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was called to be Rectorum.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They went through, actually, a short
search.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They convinced the Diocese,
“We’re healthy.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think for better or
for worse they think that they would rather not go through transition before I
came here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That would’ve been helpful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They went through a short search.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think the Diocese gave them a number of names,
they went through those.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I feel blessed
and lucky because many times I’ve moved around so much, and people won’t. .
.first paper cut, bing, “He won’t stay.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And my age, I’m 61.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Your use of the term “calling” is not the
same as, say, the people in the LDS Church use “calling.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m not sure how they call it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>God didn’t tell you to come here, did He?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m not sure how they understand that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I don’t either.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought maybe you’d know better.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think all of us, when we actually discover
a vocation that excites us, that involves head, heart, energy, joy, body,
there’s always frustrations, that those are all spiritual calls.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the secular world they’re called
vocations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have a vocation
here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I see it in your energy, in your
joy, and your intellectual.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I was not
hired here, I was called by the vestry, the bishop.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The authority really is, in the Episcopal
Church, this is complicated, the bishop is really acting through the vestry.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And the vestry is the group here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A lay group of people who get together once a
month, and they’re in charge of finances and buildings and grounds, which we do
together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m in charge of everything
else.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The history of the Episcopal Church is, we
came out of the English Reformation, Luther, and then the Counter Reformation,
and then there was Henry VIII in England.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I get confused here, there’s Zwingli, Calvinists and Presbyterians,
Switzerland.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You know the history better
than I do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We came out of the Church of
England.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Technically, according to
Richard Hooker, 1600s, early Anglican Episcopal bishop, defined us as neither
Rome nor Reformed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re neither
Catholic nor Protestant, even though we used to be called the Protestant
Episcopal Church in the United States.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Thirty years ago we dropped the word “Protestant.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re just now the Episcopal Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re like a third way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Roman Catholic, Protestant, Episcopal, Anglican,
Eastern Orthodox, and then Pentecostal, non-denominational, Bible Churches that
come out of a kind of Protestant. . .You know the flow chart.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re like a third way which actually appeals
to my way of thinking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a
baptismal covenant in which we’re all called to ministries, lay or ordained,
and that’s been revived the last thirty-five years, the baptismal covenant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re all called to ministry in the Church,
to participate, do things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lay
read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Bring [something] to the sick.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The soup kitchen which is fabulous here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Grace Church is known for their soup kitchen
which has groups participating from all over St. George including many Mormon
Churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re the only one in town, as
far as I know, that’s five days a week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A soup kitchen, hands-on compassion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s a sign of active, modern, 21<sup>st</sup> Century church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hands-on outreach.<span style="color: red;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span>It’s one of the reasons why I came
here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re welcoming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re progressive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have former Mormons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We welcome the LGBT community here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have room for liberal, conservative, and
moderate Episcopalians; I’m more former left, more moderate now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Welcoming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The service is the Eucharist, which is kind of Catholic but our own way
of doing that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they’re known for
being welcoming, progressive, open theologically.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of folks here are transplants from
elsewhere so they’re not entrenched in, like, Virginia where it’s the way
things have always been.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re open to
change and new ideas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think hopefully
you heard Sunday, I think the response to sermons. . .They’re interested
intellectually in ideas and more ways of serving their community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Anything else about the Episcopal
Church?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re known as people of the via
media, we’re called the people of the middle way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some folks feel that’s kind of wishy-washy,
watered-down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not Catholic, not
Protestant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Actually, it’s quite
creative.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We take. . .In many ways of
thinking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not just Catholic, Protestant,
liberal, conservative, left-brain/right-brain, dualism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We take those opposites, we listen in a dance
into hopefully a synthesis will emerge, a new way of thinking, new
paradigm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That way of thinking appeals
to me as an Episcopal Priest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Wouldn’t you say that socially, at least in
America, and politically, the Episcopal Church tends to lean more towards the
left than the right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Probably now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Fifty years ago we were known as the church of the mainstream, the
upper-middle-class, rich republicans, morning prayer would’ve been used on
Sunday morning instead of Eucharist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Eucharist would’ve been one Sunday a month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The liturgical reform meant, thirty<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>years ago when we came back and claimed mass,
Holy Eucharist as the Sunday service, morning prayer during the week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I miss morning prayer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So right now, yes, because we’ve been at the
forefront in terms of AIDS, of gender equality, women being ordained, folks who
happen to be gay being ordained:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Gene
Robinson.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Episcopal Church has
adopted the United Nations Millennium Development Goals in terms of reaching
out, in terms of health, education for children and for women, combating poverty.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve adopted those things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So now we’re probably on the left, yes,
because of women, orientation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were
the pioneers. . . actually the Christian Church, I think, it started in
California, the whole AIDS thing, remember, in the early-80s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were one of the first churches to come out
and say, “Everyone is welcome here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>AIDS
is not a stigma, it’s a disease.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
could happen to anybody.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now we see it
spreading in our country among heterosexuals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We were among the first to say, “This is just a disease.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was no comment among the Evangelicals,
you know, “This is God’s wrath.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So now
we’ve been known as left, even though for a long time a pretty traditional, conservative,
institutional, status quo, republican church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That is kind of our roots, 50-75 years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are wings of liberal and all that, but
we were much more establishment, institutional, cautious, traditional.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You heard about the Prayer Book, we have a
Prayer Book, 1979.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That came in 1979 to
replace the 1928 Prayer Book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Good
hymnal too.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Great hymns!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the Prayer Book, that’s
controversial.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The 1928 Prayer book, the
one most folks grew up in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And when the
’79 came through there was resistance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The purpose of that was to go from traditional, penitential language, to
more contemporary, more joyful language.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So there’s a “Rite I” and there’s a “Rite II.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Page 323, “Rite I.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Traditional.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Thees” and “Thys.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Page 355 . .
.I bet you’re impressed that I know these pages. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s your job.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I miss the Prayer Book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve been changing our Bulletin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Rite II,” contemporary language.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No “thees” and “thys.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And on your bulletin it said “Rite I” or
“Rite II.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It says “Rite II.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It should say “Rite II” because we’re using
“Rite II.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you always use the “Rite II”?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They have here for some time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It used to be in main churches, “Rite I” 8
0’clock, “Rite II” 10 o’clock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They got
rid of 8 o’clock years ago and the 5:30.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Both services here – 5:30, 10:30 – are “Rite II” contemporary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Using contemporary language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No “thees” and “thys.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that’s why I recently brought in the
contemporary “Lord’s Prayer” cuz we should know both.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re using the traditional.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we turned on Wednesday to that in here
it had both of them on the same page.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
got confused, I started reading the left. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Episcopalians should know both.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unashamedly, we should know both.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In our bulletin, we’ll be changing Mass,
we’ll be using the Prayer Book more.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Twenty years ago the Church thought, “Our service is so confusing.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Bulletin, Prayer Book, Hymn Book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Each church you go to is the same learning
curve.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s comprehensive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For me, it’s not inviting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s hard to read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Too much stuff in there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Prayer Book?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Bulletin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Sunday Bulletin, too much stuff to read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you simplify it, like a Table of
Contents, and use the Prayer Book, which is easier.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re known as the people with the Book of
Common Prayer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the Episcopal
Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Book of Common Prayer among
folks here, and England, is considered one of the jewels of English
literature.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’ll see that among folks,
Shakespeare, T.S. Eliot, all the Enlgish writers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A certain kind of Anglican language.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The heightened, not fussy, but poetry. . .The
Book of Common Prayer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Joan Didion named
one of her books <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">A Book of Common Prayer</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In England it’s considered part of our
heritage, The Prayer Book, of ways. . .In here there’s outlines of faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are Psalms, there are prayers, there
are all the daily offices.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This document
for daily spiritual practices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Tell me, how do I make sense of this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was trying to . . .(I point to somewhere in
the book).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s a calendar of saints and martyrs, which
we don’t really follow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s more
anglo-Catholic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s a good
question.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we do use that on
Wednesday, Holy Women Holy Men, which is a modern version of this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But this is more anglo-Catholic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We are right now in what’s called the
season . . .you have the liturgical calendar here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We need to get one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re in now the season after Pentecost.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Advent. . .am I going too fast?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Advent is Christmas time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Advent, four Sundays, late November up to
Christmas Eve.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Four Sundays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s called Advent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are themes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have that in common with Catholics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And now that’s the season being brought into
more Protestant Churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thirty years
ago you wouldn’t find churches doint that much.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think that’s probably our influence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Advent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Christmas, two Sundays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then the
season of Epiphany.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which is,
literature, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">epiphinas</i>, revelation,
manifestation, James Joyce’s. . .have you seen the film <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Dead</i>?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Great film.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>James Joyce, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Dead</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Good stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s an Epiphany party and there are epiphanies
that appear in the story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Very James
Joyce.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, Advent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Christmas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Epiphany.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lent, five, six plus
weeks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t use the word “Alleluia,”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>don’t have weddings, probably not
burials.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During lent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then it’s Easter season, six weeks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then there’s Pentecost which is a Jewish
festival that Christians appropriated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Spirit came to the disciples after Jesus death and
resurrection.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whether that was actual,
historical or not, that’s a long conversation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This was the Holy Spirit, Pentecost?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pentecost.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Same spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People experienced
God and Jesus comes to the disciples.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And that’s called the birth of the church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And that’s when it all made sense to them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m not sure it made sense.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But they, however they describe that, is that
the same experience of the Holy, of soul, of presence, which they experienced
through Jesus, cuz there are a lot of theories about Jesus the only church,
some people considered him a prophet, messiah, Jewish messiah, Christian
messiah, are two different things, Son of God, literally or symbolically.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When the Nicene Creed came in the early 4<sup>th</sup>
Century many people did not agree with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In the old church there were many ways of interpreting Jesus which you
know now from reading <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Time Magazine</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Early church ideas are now okay to talk about
now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For a long time there was one
teaching.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Nicene Creed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Before that there were many ways of
interpreting that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the Pentecost. . .The story is, they
were praying, the sound of a rushing wind, tongues of fire, speaking in
tongues, however you understand that, but they experienced the same sense of
presence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which may happen in life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Church, out of church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sailing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Running.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Love.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Combat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Life and death.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Solitude.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Transcendent, heightened ecstatic experiences
for me are naturally human experiences that often times are too badly reduced
to church when they’re naturally human appearing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sailing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’ve all experienced what Maslow called peak experiences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And so there’s the Pentecost and so we’re
in the season after Pentecost.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the
back of the Prayer Book there’s what’s called the Lectionary which tells us the
readings to use for all the Sundays of the church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I think you’re doing fine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And there’s the Daily Offices during the
week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With many churches, we share that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Catholics, Protestants, slightly different
readings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Lectionary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s divided into Year A, B, and C.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And we’re in B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I guess so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I can see it in your trash can.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It says. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Third Pentecost.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then we have the Daily Offices, as I
mentioned earlier, I experienced at Mount Calvary, Retreat House, the Order of
Holy Cross, in Santa Barbara, which sadly burned down about five years
ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was going to that before
seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s now just the Daily Office
which is a way for laity and clergy to actually practice faith, read Psalms,
study scripture, day-by-day-by-day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This
is the real heart of the Episcopal Church and any Christian denomination would
do more than Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The daily lived
life of prayer, study, and silence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
we forget it and don’t do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So this is
outlined, every day of every week of the Church year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So how do I read this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Sunday, the first week of Advent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What do the number mean?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Psalms, and readings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Daily Office.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And it’s morning, evening.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Asterisk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Morning, evening.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Old Testament, New Testament.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is helpful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Many of us are now calling it the Hebrew
Scriptures.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The “Old Testament” is
pejorative, written by Christians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For
many of us Hebrew Scriptures are really the key.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New Testament makes no sense without the
Hebrew Scriptures.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why I brought
back, in all three lessons. . .a year ago they had just the Gospel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had just the Gospel here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re now doing all three.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reading of the Hebrew Scriptures, they’re
fantastic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Archetypal, not so much heady
theoretical, walking on water.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But this is the Daily Offices for every
day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’ll find those on the
websites.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’ll find various websites
online for morning prayer, Book of Common Prayer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So, Emerging Christianity, which is
kind of in-between Christianities is actually tapping into those things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Forming communities beyond institutional
church, no real creeds, they want sacramental worship, symbolic, experiential,
mystery, scripture, and real daily prayer, and involvement in the world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s called. . .it’s actually very
Christian. . .Emerging Christianity has rediscovered that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So Brian McLaren, Diane Butler-Bass.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wasn’t so sure about them ten years
ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought, “Evangelical.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s fabulous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Rediscovering the first three centuries of
the faith when Christians were not known as Christians, they were called
“people of the way.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The way of
Jesus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He called disciples, sent them
out themselves, the seventy, to go and teach, heal, cast out demons, bring
peace.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whenever you do that you have
experienced Kingdom.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Intentional spiritual
practices of study, prayer, teaching, healing, ministry, not proselytizing,
ministry – the poor, the homeless – that will lead to a spiritual experience, a
transformation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve experienced that
myself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This
is in the individual?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Which is actually a very. . .that language, sociologically, is fairly
evangelical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Catholics are known for
more institution, authority, dogma, doctrine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Protestants are known for their emphasis on scripture, preaching,
proclaiming the Word.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Anglicans, we’re known,
our three areas of authority, in the Episcopal Church are scripture, and that’s
in the Prayer Book, tradition, reason, there’s a fourth area of authority we
call experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Scripture, that’s where
we get our authority.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Catholics are
known for dogma, doctrine, mass, institutional, church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Protestants known for scripture, teaching and
proclaiming the news, not a lot of social justice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Methodists, social justice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Episcopalians, our authority is scripture
which comes from the Protestant wing; tradition, Catholic; reason, 17<sup>th</sup>/18<sup>th</sup>
Century England/France, the enlightenment, we love ideas; experience is a nod
to the individual experience of God which is the evangelical side.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Evangelicals felt you had to have that
personal, powerful, emotional, experience, which Catholics and Anglicans don’t
necessarily trust because that’s all very individualistic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Cuz that contradicts the tradition and the
dogma, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It also enhances it, augments it, it all goes
together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I can see as a sociologist that it could
worry the Catholic Church, if you don’t need to go to church to experience God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Exactly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And translating the Bible, William Tyndale translating the Bible in
England from the Latin into the vulgar tongue of England.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You know what happened to him?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Taken to the Tower of London and killed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So Tyndale, the early translations,
controversial, but they’re giving power away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Power in the laity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, the
Reformation. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Look at the back of the book called “An
Outline of the Faith.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s a pretty
good definition.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve used that for
Confirmation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s pretty good.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In my own experience, I grew up somewhat
churched, unchurched, Jesus Freak, almost, in high school.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What does that mean, a Jesus Freak?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Late-sixties, California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Almost a hippy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Image of Jesus, teachings of Jesus, probably
kind of like your brother in terms of community, a new way of living in the
world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was attracted to the power of
the image and reading scripture on my own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There had to be a better way of life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Justice, peace.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is
Vietnam.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not materialistic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I pulled back, realizing there were many
ways to God, not just Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Episcopal priest.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Burned-out on
the Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Came back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Had some very challenging experiences in
church the last ten years in which I found myself really experiencing some
anger.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A number of years, until I
realized, in terms of parishes and unwelcoming, divisive leadership.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That happened in the Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had colleagues who experienced the same
thing and left church entirely or they retired.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I came back a couple, five years
ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I realized that I was carrying the
anger and losing my own joy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had to,
not only forgive, I had to choose life, which is the French existentialist
choice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You read Camus and Sartre?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Suicide or not?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You don’t choose suicide you live your life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You construct a life of meaning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I chose to live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Immediately, in Delaware.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Immediately, my brain began changing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s almost like being on an antidepressant,
which I’ve been on a few times in my life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I realize now that I shape my own
thoughts through how. . .thinking, felling, that’s my Buddhist side.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s been, not always easy, but I’ve gone
through what I call a spiritual awakening.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And one reference for that, Richard Rohr, his book called <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Falling Upward</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of people reading it right now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their own experiences.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The way of Jesus or the way of Buddha.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whatever spiritual path can be
transformative, especially, you can’t even talk about it unless you’ve gone
through a bottoming experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then
you realize you have a choice to live, and then how you choose to live your
life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I had an experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I can’t really explain that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This sense of an opening in my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And think that is trans-Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had to do my own inner-work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I joined the Episcopal Church
because we are sacramental, progressive, welcoming, I like our via media way of
thinking, intellectual church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We love
symbols.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Rich liturgy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have great music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we’re very social justice oriented.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I listen to the local Christian stations as
part of research, they’re all national things, Christian Satellite Network
which is, I guess, a Bible oriented, evangelical station.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just people teaching.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re always men.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not a lot of music, just teachings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One that was on before I came to your
Saturday night service, he was talking about justice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He didn’t like the idea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Justice, he says, leads to Socialism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then in your service you started using the
term social justice.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s not partisan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Justice is in the prophets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And what is justice?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is economic equity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is sharing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s plenty to share.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Abundance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The haves and have-nots.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I could be . . .I thought about
registering Socialist in high school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
thought with my cautious side, “Do I want to put my name on a list
someplace?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I could be a Social . . .What’s the term in
Germany?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Social Democrat?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Christian Socialist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I could be a Christian Socialist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are a lot of us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not partisan Communists, but that the economic
system is the problem.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are
different ways, Scandinavian ways of doing that which is much more shared and
you all contribute so that all are raised up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>These different Christian beliefs. . .I
don’t know which comes first. . .Obviously this Christian Satallite Network is
politically a conservative station.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
even point these things, how we are in the end times now, and they’ll say that
we can see what’s going on in, you know, Iraq and we can show that in the
Bible, so it’s a very politically conservative.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s called literalism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which we don’t tie into.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t interpret the Bible literally.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You heard me Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s all that the world is bad, humanity is
bad and fallen and that’s their experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I and others don’t feel that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s a very Jewish idea that this is creation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God called Abraham and the family to go out
into the world and God told Abraham and his family that you’ll be a source of
joy and justice to the world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was
the Abrahamic Call.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Jewish
Call.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So it’s not changed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not changed with John the Baptist or Jesus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think Jesus brings in transformative
parables, teachings, healings, that amplify that which is already there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No conversation about Son of God, Messiah,
there’s ways of interpreting that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m
not surprised to hear that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But you’ll
find people like Rick Warren is evangelical, who’s actually gone beyond moral
judgment of gays and abortion into focusing more on poverty.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s a new evangelical movement happening
right now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Rick Warren is
influential.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What was the book he wrote?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Seven
Practical Steps</i> or something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s
new evangelical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which I can read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s gone beyond this moral judgment,
certainty.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“We should be focusing on the
poor, the outcasts.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My brother must be this kind of Emerging
Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll start talking politics
and he says he doesn’t want to talk about politics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He won’t register to vote.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“I’m doing Jesus work here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m gonna stay out of the politics.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think the political realm is still
important.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m a democrat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wish there was a socialist.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Bernie Sanders.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I like what he says.<o:p></o:p></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-3280026482271030252022-05-18T14:12:00.002-06:002022-05-18T14:12:36.628-06:00Interview with Pastor Jimi, Solomon's Porch Four Square Church<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Pastor Jimi<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Solomon’s Porch Four Square
Church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">St. George, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place in Solomon’s
Porch Sanctuary<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">February 18, 2016<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m here with Reverend Jimi Kestin of the
Solomon’s Porch Four Square Church in St. George, Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hello, Jimi.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Pastor
Jimi:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How are you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m fine, thank you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Let’s start with your biography.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How did you get from being born to being a
Reverend at the Four Square Church in St. George, and along the way tell me
about the Four Square Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was born in 1957 in Milwaukee,
Wisconsin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was born Jewish; Russian
Jews from both sides of the family who escaped the communist revolution and the
czar. .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were your parents immigrants?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Both my parents were born here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All four grandparents, I believe, were born in
Russia near the Polish border.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m
second generation American.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was raised
in a not real strict Jewish home, but a Jewish home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One of those families that rarely made it to
service except for the big holidays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At
13, after my <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">bar mitzvah</i>, which is
the Jewish form of confirmation in to adulthood, I walked away from faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was something missing from that faith
walk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I preceded to be, like many
children of the 70s, far more focused on a secular, party lifestyle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is there a strong Jewish community in
Milwaukee?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There is a solid Jewish community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There has been for years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s an interesting dynamic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know what it is like now, I haven’t
been back in 40 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a somewhat
segregated community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Each ethnic group
had its own enclave.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was the old
Jewish neighborhood and then the newish Jewish neighborhood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were the German neighborhoods, the
Polish neighborhood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was the
Serbian neighborhoods.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Catholics
didn’t live in the same neighborhoods as the Lutherans who didn’t live in the
same neighborhoods as the Jews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
the way that place was in the 60s and 70s growing up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I walked away from faith. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Was this a conscious decision?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My parents didn’t force the issue.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would occasionally show up with them for
holidays, but once I was old enough to make my own decisions, like I say, there
was something missing from that faith attachment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Today I know what it is that’s missing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To me, it was dry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were things that didn’t make sense
about what was being taught.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Today I
understand, for me, why that is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
short version is, from 13 to 30 I lead a very secular party lifestyle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In Milwaukee?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
left Milwaukee at 18 and moved to the hottest climate I could find a job in,
Phoenix, where I spend a few years, and then to Las Vegas, where I spend most
of my adult life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At 30 I walked away
from alcohol, drugs, the party lifestyle, and began an 8 years journey towards
finding a faith that worked for me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you having a career in these years?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I had a very successful career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked in the automobile industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I managed car dealerships for a living, in
Phoenix and Vegas and Wisconsin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve
been in management since my early-20s, late-teens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I moved up into management quickly in that
industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I managed car dealerships and
staffs and departments throughout my adult career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That journey also involved meeting my
wife.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pastor Rickine, who was a
Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we met Rickine was a
Christian, I was not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met in Las
Vegas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Over the course of the first 8
years of our relationship, after we married, I was on a journey seeking to find
a faith that worked for me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was
obstinately against the idea of it being Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a period there where I really
believed that we could define our own god and then worship in a way that we
think that ought to be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went about, if
I was going to define God what would it be and I came up with these attributes
and I functioned in that until I came to the realization that if you can define
your own god you are still it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You are your own god.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Exactly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Because, by definition, God is bigger than us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are certain basic definitions that I
understand about God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If there is a God,
He is timeless, He’s eternal, which means he exists outside of time, He has not
beginning and He has no end.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He spoke
time and everything into existence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For
God to be God there are certain attributes He must have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Therefore, because He’s timeless, eternal,
all-powerful, all-knowing, exists outside of time, knows the past, the present,
and the future, because He can see the whole thing from outside of time, He
created time along with everything else, He would have all knowledge, he would
know everything, he would be all-powerful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>All meaning all.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those attributes
would also make him completely unchanging.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Because if you knew everything there would never be a need to change
because you already know the past, present, future.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That developing concept of what God would
have to be led me to the realization that if I can define God then I’m claiming
that I’m bigger than him, therefore I’m still my own god, which is certainly
the secular humanist view of spirituality that is very common in our society
today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can go over to Barnes and
Noble or on to Amazon.com, you can buy 150 books on being your own god.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They don’t say you’re being your own god, but
if you read the information they’re telling you to self-help, basically you’re
being your own god as opposed to I no longer seek self-help, I seek God’s help.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So coming to that conclusion. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you’re partying, you’re a manager at an
auto dealership, you’re in Vegas, you meet Rickine.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I quit drinking and partying.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did you go through AA?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I did go through the 12 steps.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did Rickine get you into that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>She was already, 2 ½ years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s got over 31 years, I’m coming up on
29.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m 2 ½ years behind her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Certainly she was a impetus behind that, but when
I first went to walk away from that, her response to me is, “If you want what I
have, go get it the way I got it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s the last conversation about drug and alcohol recovery and
counseling that we had.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went about
exploring that, working through that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was very anti-Christian.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you calling yourself a Jew at that
time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had long since walked away from that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was pretty much nothing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At the point that I was looking from
spirituality in order to redefine life at 30, I guess men grow up a little
slower than women, it was time to put our life in order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got to the place where that definition of
understanding those core basic attributes, cuz I’m a thinking person, it was
about finding a faith that fit those attributes that would allow for asking
questions, because I’m a strong believer that blind faith is simply
indoctrination, that if God is God then he would want us to ask the hard
questions because if God is God and he’s revealing Himself to us he would want
us to have those answers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That process
led me to a Bible study with a group of former outlaw bikers, we rode Harleys
back then, in fact we just recently got rid of our bikes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to a Bible study with a group of
former outlaw bikers who had found Christ and changed their lives and now were
ministering to other bikers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They invited you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My wife was attending it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For about a year she hooked up with this
Christian motorcycle group, of former hardcore bikers who now were preaching
Jesus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was around them once in awhile
but not very often.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She would go to this
Bible study at one of their houses and she’d come home and, “Well, what did you
talk about?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And she’d say, “The Bible.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She wouldn’t tell me a thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had been praying behind my back for a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Behind my back because if I knew they were
praying I would have objected.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were praying diligently for me behind my back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would’ve certainly objected had I known
that because I was pretty obstinant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you married at this point?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Oh yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’d been married 7 years, up to 8.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We were married 8 years when I got saved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At that Bible study, I was listening, they
handed me a Bible, I don’t even know what the topic was that night, I couldn’t
tell you, but they handed me a Bible and asked me to read the Gospel of John,
Chapter 1, Verse 29.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was my turn to
read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was the first words I ever
read in English in the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Remember,
growing up Jewish in a conservative Jewish community, the Old Testament was
read in Hebrew, and I didn’t understand Hebrew.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you hadn’t read the New Testament.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I certainly wouldn’t have ever read the New
Testament.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was the first English
words of the Bible that I had ever read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And it was, “The next day John saw Jesus coming, said ‘Behold, the Lamb
of God who takes away the sin of the world.’”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As it’s been described, literally I began shaking, physically shaking to
the point where the sofa I was sitting on seemed to be shaking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everybody in the room, except me, knew that I
had been overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At that moment, all that stuff that I had
been taught in Hebrew school, in Sunday school, but it was on Saturdays, Friday
nights, growing up, just came back in a moment and the sacrificial lamb of the
Passover and all of the Jewish traditions, at that moment I realized that Jesus
was the promised Messiah of the Jewish people of the Old Testament.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They prayed with me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I couldn’t tell you what the prayer was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We went home and a couple of days later we
went to a local church that was very biker friendly, Grapevine Fellowship,
about 1,000 people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A very diverse
group.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Non-denominational?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Four Square Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “We’re gonna have to find a church
cuz if I’m gonna do this Christian thing we’re gonna have to go find the right
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here’s the plan, Rickine, we’re
gonna go each Sunday to a different church until we find the right one.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started with Grapevine because it was a
known entity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were a lot of Christian
bikers there as well as a very diverse group of people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That first Sunday, my first pastor, Pastor
Bud, preached a sermon that was absolutely directed right at me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I responded to alter call.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had been at Grapevine ever since until we
came here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That search for the right
church lasted exactly one Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
were in the right church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said to Rickine, “I gotta read the
Bible.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we got a new King James
version of the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I sat down and
read it. . .we were gonna read it together but that lasted about an hour
because I read so much faster than her and I was. . .I started at Genesis,
Chapter 1 Verse 1, read it all the way through to the last verse of Revelation,
in under five weeks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Retained almost all
of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was while working a 70 hour
work weeks, 75 hour work weeks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So in my
spare time, after working 70 plus hour work weeks, six days a week, I read the
Bible cover-to-cover in barely over a month and pretty much retained the whole
thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did it again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I actually read it cover-to-cover a second
time even faster.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Immediately following the first time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
had almost total recall on what was in there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>More importantly than that, understood what I was reading.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Within a few weeks, within a month or two of
becoming a Christian I was answering questions, Biblical questions, to guys who
had been walking with the Lord for 20 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was becoming the source and as I would go back and study commentaries
of, you know, through the ages, from those who approached the Bible as the inspired
word of God and that every word in it is truth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Those commentaries were confirming what I already understood, what I was
reading.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The next step was:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If God is God and those attributes are all
right, then this Bible has to be flawless or worthless.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It can’t be any in between.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It would have to be flawless in the original
language, because translating into English you’re going to lose things,
particularly from ancient Greek which was a far more detailed language.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It would have to be in the original language,
it would have to be in context for when it was written.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the basic approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I began to
study the Bible and I started with the Book of Genesis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first five chapters of Genesis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “Okay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How am I going to do this?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m an educated man.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m very well read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I will not accept this blind faith.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You
said you are educated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did you go to
college?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
do not have a degree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have attended
college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I attended some college in my
youth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you mean self-educated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some college in my youth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did
not complete a degree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have gone back
to Bible College and almost completed that degree; all Biblical courses.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m missing a couple general ed courses from
my degree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Which college is that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Life Pacific in San Dimas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did it online and the old fashioned
correspondence because I was still working and living in Vegas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That did come later.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I started to do this research.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“I have to find out if I can reconcile
Christianity and thinking and an academic approach to things.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My conclusion, for me, was unless the first
five chapters of the Book of Genesis are truth – that would be creation through
the flood – then what good is a dead Jewish carpenter with a missing body gonna
do me?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The short version there is,
what’s the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus Christ gonna do for me if
the Bible is already flawed at the front?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I grew up in public schools, was taught
evolution apart from intelligent design, was told that . . . It was a lot less
millions of years when I went to school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>One of the things I found out about evolution is that when my dad was
being taught evolution it was thousands of years and hundreds of thousands of
years, by the time I was in school it was tens of thousands and, maybe, a few
million, and now they’re saying hundreds of millions of years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The time keeps getting large enough to
propagate the fraud that the universe is an accident.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My faith walk went to an in-depth study of
creation science.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unless I can believe
that what we see in the evidence of the universe around us can fit into what
God has told us, I’m done with this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
spent the next year or two becoming a. . .researching creation science.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I came to the conclusion that secular
evolution apart from intelligent design is more of a religion than any church
you could go to because it takes a greater leap of faith to connect the
unconnected dots than it does to apply it to what the Bible says, cuz if you
read what the Bible actually says, it fits what we actually see.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Since none of us were there. . .So to try to
keep this in a reasonable amount of time, that conclusion led me to accept the
basic premise that the Bible is the inspired word of God, that every word in it
is true and accurate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When not
translated correctly or interpreted correctly, but when we go back and find out
what the words actually meant in the original language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did you study Greek and Latin at this time,
too?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The good news is we live in a computer
age.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, yes, I have Greek concordances,
Hebrew concordances, I’ve got an entire library of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I will tell you that I rarely dust those
books off any more because it’s a lot easier to click on the computer
especially since I’m bi-vocational and don’t have 40-60 hours a week study
time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve got maybe 20 hours a week
study time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I save a lot of that time by
going to Greek concordances on the computer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>With a simple click I can get to the original language, I can get to the
context, then I can go and do a search, if I need historical background for
what was going on historically.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I try to
bring some of that out in our teaching on Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you’re in the Grapevine Church. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yep.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was at Grapevine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Started moving up the
ranks of service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Started out, my first
ministry was door greeter, which was a lot of fun.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I became an usher.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My pastor, my father, and our dog died within
60 days of each other.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everyone knew
that there was a call in my life but I didn’t quite understand it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He did not gift me like this. . I’m the guy
who. . .I read the recap of the football game in the newspaper and have to go
back and recheck the score.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But when it
comes to the Bible or other research that I have to do where God has called me
to do it, as I’m finding out I have the same retention in the political field
now that He gave me in the Bible, that was given for a reason.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That kind of retention and understanding was
not from me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was beyond my
capability.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I understood that there
was a call in my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had one of
those deep spiritual experiences where I heard, it seemed audibly but it wasn’t
audibly, from God, calling me that he had a plan for me and that was that the
day would come that I would pastor a church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So this is a specific moment?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>4
o’clock in the morning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Before my lasik
surgery when I had to wear glasses to read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Woke me up at 4 o’clock in the morning, sent me the Bible to read a
couple of passages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Clearly I heard the
impression of God telling me that he had called me, he had set me apart to one
day pastor the church and I needed prepare for that day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The day would come in the future where I
would pastor, where I would shepherd a flock for Him and teach his word.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I went to my pastor and he said, “God will
open a door.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was shortly after that
that he died, my dad died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My dad died
first, then my pastor died, then our dog died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My pastor’s son moved to Las Vegas to take over the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He became the pastor of the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s been my mentor and my pastor since.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One of the first things he set up at
Grapevine was distance learning through Life Pacific College to allow people in
Las Vegas to go to Bible College.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Life Pacific is a Four Square college?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Life Bible College, which is what it was called
when I was going.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My pastor instituted a distance learning.
. . He understood the call in my life, he said, “This is how we’ll do it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I spent the next nine years mentoring under
him, serving in various ministries at Grapevine, I was on the church council, I
was at the same time managing a major car dealership in Las Vegas that I’d been
with, at the end, 15 years, which is somewhat extraordinary in that
industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then one day they decided they
were going to make some changes and I was one of those changes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was offered a different position and
decided not to do that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was seeking
God in prayer and he clearly told me, “I’m gonna take this away from you.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This had to be divine intervention.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s a business where nobody gets advance
notice that they’re going to be stepping down out of a senior management
position, because I had power of the pen and the ability to, you know, buy
cars.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had more than a month’s advanced
notice and was given a large severance package as part of retiring from that position.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those things never happen in that
industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s unheard of.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But my integrity was such that they trusted
me to do as good a job on my last day as I did on my first and then wanted to
make sure that this was not a hard feelings kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was offered another position that I decided
not to take.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reason I didn’t take it
was because I got woke up at 4 o’clock in the morning understanding that God
was telling me, “Remember when I told you” . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is the second time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Nine years later.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Remember when
I told you the day would come that I would ask you to shepherd a flock, pastor
a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The future is now.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The funny thing is, people had asked me, they
knew I had a call in my life to one day be in the pastorate, and they said,
“Where would you like to go?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “A smaller town would be
great.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Near to where you go fishing and
camping.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Now you’re talking to people at the church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They said, “Where?<br />
I said, “Smaller town.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is long
before the call came to go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They said, “What about Utah?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I always said, “Utah sounds like way too
much work.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cuz there’s a very dominant
culture of faith up here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Oddly enough.
. .I heard that call, “The future is now, this is why we’re doing this.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I went and
sat down with my pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “I
don’t know what to do, Pastor Dean.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God
is telling me that this whole thing was laid out so that I can pastor a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t even know where to start with
something like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And, by the way, I
haven’t told Rickine that I’ll be leaving my employment in two weeks, after
fifteen years,” which was the scariest part of the whole deal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pastoring a church seemed like nothing
compared to telling my wife that after 15 years our life was gonna get turned
upside down.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">My pastor’s
response was, “I’m glad I’m not you.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
said, “Obviously you need to go home and talk to Rickine and we need to start
praying to figure out what God has in mind here cuz we’re missing an
answer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We know the time but we don’t
know the place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What do we do?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I went
home and told Rickine and instead of panicking about our change of income, she
jumped for joy and ran off to her computer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Ran out of the room to her office.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m just sort of sitting back and watching and I didn’t even ask what
she was doing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It turns out that she
spent about 30 or 40 minutes searching all over the United States for where she
wanted to live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By that time we had
adopted Melinda, our 14 year old, she’s about three.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She loved the idea of not raising her in Las
Vegas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So she’s looking all over the
country for where she’d want to live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Then she suddenly stopped.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m
sitting in the kitchen at the counter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
can see her office that we built for her, and I’m just kind of watching
her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of a sudden she just
stopped.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Her countenance changed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then she went back to the computer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What occurred was she stopped looking for
where she wanted to live and started asking God where He wanted us to
live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At that moment He showed her St.
George, Utah, and that there was no Four Square Church in St. George.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a Four Square Church in Cedar City.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a Four Square Church in
Mesquite.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was no Four Square
Church in St. George.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At that moment she
knew that we were supposed to come to St. George.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She walked out and said, “It’s St.
George.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew immediately. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What
year are we talking about?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>2005.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Well, 2004, cuz we moved here in 2005.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s 2004.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s late 2004.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I knew immediately, it’s St. George.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I called my pastor and I said, “It’s St.
George.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “Oh, it is absolutely St.
George.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He called the district
supervisor for the Four Square Church and said, “Jimi and Rickine are supposed
to plant St. George, pioneer St. George.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “That’s absolutely God.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The process of going through church plant
training for the Four Square Church back then was a 1-2 year process.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In under 4 months we had completed the
process, sold our home, and were living in St. George.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Was training through Grapevine?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
was through Four Square.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For our
district it was. . .we call it church planting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I tend to use the term pioneer more here cuz it resonates better in the
culture understanding it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was church
planting intensive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had to get
licensed as a pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was a licensed
minster, but it was a staff level license that now had to be upgraded to a
Senior Pastor’s license which meant additional interviews and training and evaluation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then an evaluation to see if we were someone
who would be prone to having some success at church planting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Church planting from scratch has a horrendous
failure rate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Very few of them make
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They want to make sure you have the
temperament. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The ability to plan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We went through a whole series of training
and interviews and evaluation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
process can take up to two years if they feel that there’s things that you need
to go back and work on spiritually or management-wise or administratively.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For us it was less than 4 months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We completed the process in less than 4
months that normally takes up to 2 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Not only that but sold our home, found our home here, got our home
remodeled, and were living here in St. George in less than 4 months, by the
beginning of 2005.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was, for a brief
time, still commuting as I’d found another management position.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was immediately hired to manage another car
dealership down there, for a few months, and then the commute started to get
old.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God opened up the door to manage a
car dealership here, which I did for the first couple years we were up here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we stepped away from that business 10
years ago, almost 10 years ago, nine years ago, because it was too many hours,
the church was beginning to grow, and started a Bible Study in our living
room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re now sitting in the result
10 years later of what that Bible Study in our living room became.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We became a very community active
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve been pasturing ever since.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you moved here and just asked somebody,
“Hey, you wanna come to a Bible Study in my living room?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our church pioneer plan, our plant plan, was
pretty basic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was funding
available from Four Square but we weren’t gonna take that money until we were
established.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we thought, “The way to
do this is to go up there, get plugged in to the community, find some
Christians who were in need of a church, start a Bible Study in our home, and
see what God does with it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met some Christians who did not have real
church affiliations, started a Bible Study, a Sunday night Bible Study in our
home towards the end of 2005.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were
here about 6 months before we actually started up the Bible Study, towards the
end of 2005.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By a year later we had over
30 people meeting in our family room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A
sizable chunk of money. . .By then we had switched to a Sunday morning service
in our family room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A year later we had
outgrown that and started looking for our first facility.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We moved in downtown at the 400 East facility
where we were up until last July.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
rest, as they say, is history.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
the biographical side of how we got to where we are today.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So when you began you’re not taking any Four
Square money?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The money that was available, we waited until
we got our first facility, which we used for the purchase of. . .We had
sufficient reserve of our own and enough of an offering/tithe base that we
could cover the rent for the facility.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We didn’t need Four Square’s money for rent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our plan was to become an established church
and then use the funding from Four Square to buy the kind of things that we
couldn’t, that we would need to get a facility opened up:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>like these tables, like those black
chairs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those were the kind of things
that we purchased.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The piano over
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The electronic drums.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We bought the stuff that we, we used the
funding from Four Square to finish out the facility that we needed at the time
to get us started up, because we had seen other church planting efforts where
they took that funding and used it to rent a facility on the basis that, “We will
rent a facility.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ll get going and
then we’ll grow enough to keep it going once the money runs out.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What invariably would happen is that the
money would run out before the offering base was able to supplement it and
those churches died out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had the
option and luxury of having a big enough family room in the house that we found
here that we were able to grow to a stable size church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now those things rotate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Church congregations will change drastically
any time you move.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So a year after we got
into that facility there was no one left from the living room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re in another transition now as we are
regrowing a congregation here because we moved from downtown to here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How long have you been here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>July 1 is when we moved into this facility.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our ministry outreach was based on
community needs, we’re very community active, we helped found the interfaith
council, we work very interdenominationally on the interfaith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was one of the founding members of the
interfaith council and served as both vice president and president of the
interfaith council until the beginning of this year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Tell me about Four Square Churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The International Church of the Four Square
Gospel, commonly known as the Four Square Movement, is the spiritual covering that
we’re under.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s almost 100 years old
now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was founded by a female
evangelist named Amy Semple McPherson who had a fascinating story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was raised a Methodist in Canada, was
born again in the Pentecostal revival of Illinois and Chicago in the early,
early 1900s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Married and went on a
mission assignment in mainland China in the late 1800s, early 1900s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Her husband died in the mission field not to
long after they got there, which left her in mainland China penniless, having
to find her way back to America.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By
God’s Grace she was able to get back here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>She became a traveling evangelist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Traveled the nation in a tent ministry in an old Model A Ford and did
giant revival meetings all over the country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>She eventually settled in California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>She built Angelus Temple in the 1920s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was built debt free.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It seated
over 20,000 people a week, having over twenty services, standing room only,
each week at Angelus Temple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During the
Great Depression the Four Square Movement, Angelus Temple, fed more people than
the state of California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She also had
the first coast-to-coast national live radio broadcast in the history of radio,
Four Square’s national broadcast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
fact, we just sold the radio station 15 years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was built, along with Life Bible College,
as a interdenominational, dedicated to the proposition of interdenominational
world-wide evangelism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was never
designed to be a denomination, and we’re not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Independent churches started to coalesce around the concept of Four
Square and the work that we’re doing in sending evangelists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are now over 58,000 Four Square
Churches world-wide, less than 2,000 in the United States.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are the largest Christian, other than the
Catholic Church, in Brazil.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re the
largest Christian faith in Cambodia, and Indonesia.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact, nearly half of the nation of
Cambodia today, right now, is now Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Cambodia is that close to being a Christian nation, a majority Christian
nation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is the place where the
killing fields were.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And more than half
the Christians are Four Square in that country.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, great world-wide outreach, great disaster
relief, feeding the hungry, based on a simple principle that God’s Word is the
inspired word of God that we teach.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Keeping all things in balance without extremes of fanaticism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God said what He meant, meant what He said.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our job is simply to find out what those
words meant in context.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Keep the Word of
God in balance, not lifting any verse over any other.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Four Square stands for the fourfold ministry
of Jesus Christ:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s our Savior, our
Healer, the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit, and the soon coming King.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So
the Four Square is a Pentecostal Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We are under the large umbrella of
Pentecostal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d be on the mild end of
that spectrum.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pentecostal has a bit of
a bad rap because of some of the extremist movements within the Pentecostal
umbrella.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But, yes, we are within the true
definition-sense, part of that Pentecostal umbrella.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re on the mild side of it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What does it mean to be Pentecostal?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>To be Pentecostal means that we believe that
the gifts of the Spirit are alive today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That the Book of Acts is the only book of the Bible that, if you read
that book, it has no ending, it just tails off in the middle of a thought with
Paul on his way to Spain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every other
book of the Bible has a conclusion to the book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Book of Acts doesn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
reason is, the Book of Acts is still being written.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just not being written in the . . .Like
I like to say, “We’re in Chapter 2016 right now.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What’s your Book of Acts story?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We believe that the gifts of the Spirit are
alive today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That the Jesus Christ is
the same, yesterday, today, and forever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You’ll see that on display at every Four Square Church in the
world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It means that God doesn’t
change.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Therefore, all the things he did
then, he still does now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He still
heals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He still empowers us with the
Holy Spirit in order to do ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One
of the evidences of that is what’s known as a prayer language, or speaking in
tongues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is it called the baptism of the Holy Spirit?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The baptism of the Holy Spirit is. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You’re saved first.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You’re saved, and at salvation there’s the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit who takes residence in us and is our teacher, our
guide, opening up the Word of God to us, taking the blinders off because the
things of God are foolishness to those who are still perishing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Once we have that enlightened moment when we
realize who God is and that this all makes sense as I did on that sofa all
those years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Holy Spirit becomes
our guide and our teacher to reveal the truth of the Word of God to us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He resides in us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The baptism of the Holy Spirit, as we
understand it, is an additional infilling of the Holy Spirit which is power to
ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s designed to empower us
for whatever God has empowered us to do in our life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At the baptism of the Holy Spirit we are
given the ability to pray in tongues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
may not use it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We may not develop
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I certainly was on who waited years
to explore that because I thought it was a little weird.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Praying in gibberish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But what I came to understand was there are
times. . .There are times I don’t know how to pray.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I may be driving down the street and God will
put Matt on my radar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You will just
suddenly come to mind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I know that
I’m supposed to be praying for your but I have no idea what your situation or
circumstance is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s where I have the
gift of being able to pray in tongues, uttering sounds that I don’t need to
know what they are, but it moves things in the spiritual realm, establishing
the need that you have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It may not be my
business to know what your need was, but somebody needed to lift that need
before God because He will never intervene in a situation to which he’s not
invited.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So through the prayer language,
which is the primary use of tongues, I’m able to pray for people in a situation
where I may not know what their needs are.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you ever do that publicly, during
services?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I have prayed with people, if I’m praying
over somebody, there are times that I will, if I don’t know their situation, I
often pray in English, but sometimes I’ll break in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are biblically, not mandated, there are
biblically acceptable uses of tongues in a public setting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Primarily, tongues is for, and this is where
the Pentecostal movement sometimes goes off the rails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It distinguishes you from some other
Pentecostal. . .Like the Assemblies of God, for instance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Assemblies of God doctrinally are the same as
Four Square.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Identical doctrine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just a different church government.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There statement of faith is. . <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is public knowledge, I’m gonna tell a
story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve been to New Beginnings
Christian Fellowship out in Washington.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I know the pastor well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Jonathan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Part of their service, I’m putting this in quotes, is “kind of
weird.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re speaking in
tongues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are people fainting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t see that happening. . .is there a
distinction?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I will tell you that, for me, here’s what the
Bible says about tongues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Again, the
statement of faith is the same for Assemblies of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I do believe, and I’m not talking about
Pastor Jonathan or New Beginnings, because obviously I’ve never been to one of
his services.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can tell you what I believe
about tongues, and what I believe about genuine Pentecostal Christianity as God
has shown it to me and as it’s practiced in most Four Square Churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I will tell you that I’ve been to a Four
Square Church where I walked in the door and the Holy Spirit impressed upon me
immediately that what I was about to see was not Him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What I saw was a pastor laying on the ground
making noises, people falling out on the floor, making animal sounds, chaos on
the service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As clear as anything else
I’ve heard from God, He said, “I need you to see this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is not Me.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I decided I needed to understand the proper
place for the Pentecostal movement and what tongues really is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Very learned, brilliant men who’ve written
the books on this stuff, “Here’s what that is.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The public display of tongues is for the
edification of the body and to reach the unbeliever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If someone breaks out into tongues in a
proper, healthy Pentecostal Church, it would be one individual who suddenly
breaks out in a public display of tongues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>At that point, we’re mandated that everything stops.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We just stop the service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If we’re in the middle of a worship set and
somebody breaks out in tongues, we are stopping right then and there, and we
are waiting for what the Bible says is going to happen next, and that’s the
interpretation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Public use of tongues
will not be done. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Has this happened in your church before?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s happened at Grape Vine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It has not happened here at Solomon’s Porch
save one or two times.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It has happened a
couple of times over the ten years that we’ve been here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At that point someone is going to receive
the message of what was just said.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In a
public display of tongues, the Biblical reference for this is in 1 Corinthians
because Paul went into a church where there was chaos and people talking in
tongues and he said, “This isn’t God.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>If someone speaks in tongues it’s gonna be one or two people and it will
always be accompanied by an interpretation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s probably not the person who spoke in tongues that would be the one
interpreting it, although that wouldn’t be impossible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Usually there’s somebody in the room who is
just shaking in their seat because they know they just got the interpretation
and they’re afraid to say it, or they’re mature enough in their Christianity
that they’re willing to say it and we’ll will receive that interpretation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we’ll move on with service and praise
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If no interpretation comes and I
sense that somebody was just acting out I will cover that and speak to it and
then counsel that person privately later that maybe they weren’t hearing from
God because we didn’t receive interpretation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m not going to embarrass them in front of the congregation because
there is no benefit to the Kingdom of God in doing that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Look.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Rolling on the floor, making animal sounds, is nowhere in the
Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just not Biblical, it’s not
scriptural.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If there is a Pentecostal
Church that is having chaos, I call that a dog and pony show, not a move of the
Holy Spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m not judging any other
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact, I wish you hadn’t
mentioned which church it was.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sorry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Other than it was in a public setting and anybody could have been there
and watched it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m just trying to get
the difference. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m telling you what the Bible says about this
and that is that . . .Now, if we have a prayer session in church, from
time-to-time we will do that if anybody needs prayer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sometimes we’ll break into small prayer
circles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you need prayer for healing
or a situation, you want me to pray with you, come up and pray, many times I’ll
pray with that person and tongues will be involved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Again, the primary purpose of tongues is as a
prayer language, when we don’t know how to pray. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You do encourage a certain physicality in
your services.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You encourage people to
dance and sing. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That is absolutely scriptural.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There are even churches where. . .We had a lady who used to bring a
little banner and wave it and dance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s absolutely Biblical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Worship, both in song and word, can be a very spiritually moving
experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We can be very moved in the
experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have prayed over people
who, where the Holy Spirit has knocked them down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unlike some, I’ve never pushed anyone down
for affect.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I actually had someone pray
over me who tried to give me a little help going down and that told me
something intuitive about his ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He had crossed a line.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have
laid hands and prayed over somebody and had them just hit the ground.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was overcome by the Holy Spirit at that
Bible Study when I first got saved and I’ve certainly been with people in
service that have been clearly moved by the Holy Spirit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What about the Four Square, the healing
part?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is medical help okay with you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God heals in three different ways.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’ll either heal by his miracle hand, which
is always our first and primary prayer, that he would radically and completely
restore you to wholeness by his miracle hand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The second way God heals is through the hand of a doctor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have many people who have come through
that ask about prescribed medications.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We reply, “You take your medications as prescribed.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you have a chemical imbalance that needs
medical treatment and you’re on medication, you don’t go off that medication
expecting God to do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God is healing
you through that medication.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So there is no contradiction there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No contradiction at all, cuz God is still
getting the glory.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He is the one who
healed you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He may heal you through his
miracle hand, He may choose to heal you through the hand of a doctor, and there
will always be a reason because, remember, God heals us first of all because He
wants us to be whole, second of all as a testimony of His power.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By healing us through the hand of a doctor,
and us giving glory to God, we have the opportunity to witness who He is and
spread the gospel of grace.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The third way God heals is by taking you
home, which is the ultimate healing, because, for the Christian there is no
death.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For the Christian there is no
death.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our last breath here is preceded
by our first breath in the presence of the Lord.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For some, that is the ultimate healing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God can choose whichever means because he is
God and He gets to make all the choices by which means he chooses to heal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The one thing we know from a Biblical
standpoint is that every Bible-believing Christian who seeks God for healing is
healed in one of those fashions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Jesus
has never denied someone a healing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They’re all healed by the third one, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He has his option and we’re completely healed by that one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If it’s our time to go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What about baptisms?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are two ordinances of the church that
the Four Square Church participates in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The first is the Lord’s Supper, that’s communion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The bread and the wine, we use grape juice
here because we have people who don’t drink.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The second is water baptism by immersion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those were given to us by the Lord.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those are the two ordinances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Age of consent?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Age of consent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you can explain you salvation to me you
can be baptized.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The youngest person
we’ve baptized in this church was 7 or 8.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The oldest was in their 90s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve
done first time baptisms and we’ve done people who’ve been rebaptized because
there was a major life change that they felt the needed/wanted to back into the
water.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Communion?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Can anybody take it in your church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>If you are a child of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If
Jesus is your Lord and savior and you’re a child of God then you’re welcome at
the Lord’s table.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s up to the individual to make that
decision?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We serve open communion, which means anyone can take communion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Baptism is simply an outward display of the
inward work that God has done in us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You’re not baptized into the Four Square movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re not baptized into any particular
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You are baptized as a public
display of what God’s done on the inside.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally, what about your community
outreach?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where does that come from?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We saw a need, we met a need.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It started innocently enough.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Going all the way back to Bible study in our
living room, we have always shared our Sunday mean together as a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In churches of any size what ends up
happening is right after church everyone scatters and tries to beat the
Baptists to the Applebee’s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In those
situations the pastor usually ends up with a tight knit group of 6 or 8 people
at most, sometimes smaller, that they have lunch with every single Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was like that at Grapevine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had lunch every week with the pastor and
there was a tight-knit group of the staff, we ate our Sunday meals
together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We decided we wanted to do
this, we also had some single moms and that, so we did a potluck-style, what we
call the Love Feast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had our Sunday
meal together as family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We continued to
do that when we opened our first facility.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>After awhile we started noticing that there were – we were downtown – we
started to notice there were people showing up that weren’t necessarily there
for service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We knew that because it was
in the same room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started out
downstairs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Of course we didn’t turn
them away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We realized that there were
homeless people from the community that figured out there was food there and
started coming to eat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we fed
them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It continued to grow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Word traveled fast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It continued to grow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It morphed into the Sunday Feast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We outreached to the community to say, we
found out that. . .We were helping Grace Episcopal which does the soup kitchen
reorganize their covering because they had some administrative issues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the process of doing that we found out
that there was no one in St. George that was feeding the elderly and homeless
community on a weekend.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s when we
reached out to the food bank.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We also
received a grant from LDS Humanitarian Services through the Bishop
Storehouse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And the Sunday Feast was
born.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It expanded to the Friday Food
Pantry.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is this a typical Four Square thing?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Grapevine in Las Vegas has a food
pantry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I mentioned Angelus Temple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s in our DNA.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Angelus Temple fed more people than the State
of California during the Depression.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
is certainly in Four Square’s DNA.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
fits within the model of interdenominational worldwide evangelism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It fits in the denomination of meeting the
needs of the people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It fits within the
Book of Acts model for the Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
Church in the Book of Acts shared their meals together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you read the Book of Acts, those first
Christians, they met together on the first day of the week, which was Sunday,
they had their meals together, they were a family unit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So food is a integral part of Biblical
Christianity as it was practiced in the 1<sup>st</sup> Century, which is what
we try to pattern our church after.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Remember, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s how he designed this thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Food is also a great bridge of outreach to be
able to have conversation, develop relationship, and connect people with needs
that will change their life both spiritual and physical.<span style="color: red;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-3346085680833918312022-05-17T18:11:00.006-06:002022-05-18T14:13:25.793-06:00 Interview with Pastor Jonathan, New Beginnings Christian Fellowship<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Pastor Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">New Beginnings Christian
Fellowship<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Washington, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place in the
gathering area of the auditorium at the church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">September 18, 2015<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Jonathan of the New Beginnings
Christian Fellowship in Washington, Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So, Pastor, how did you get to be here at the New Beginnings Christian
Fellowship in Washington, Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Your
biography, where do you come from?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Pastor
Jonathan:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My grandfather was a Baptist
minister and my dad was going to North Central Bible College in Minneapolis to
become a minister.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He graduated and
pastured a church in Sauk Centre, Minnesota.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was born in Minneapolis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
moved to Ohio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My dad, what we call
“fell away from the Lord.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He quit
having that relationship with God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After
he had graduated?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And pastured a short time and moved to Ohio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My parents divorced.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They separated when I was eight.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>If you don’t mind, how old are you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m 53.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Born up in Minneapolis when my dad was graduating up there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My parents separated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mom always attended church and was very
faithful to that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you stayed with your mom when your
parents separated?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My dad just kind of. . . He
had different girlfriends and stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
was tumultuous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The divorce was
finalized when I was 11.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He went his own
way, got remarried and had a couple other kids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I lived with my mom.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was a
single parent through my teen years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She
met my stepdad, I call him my dad, he’s a great man and remarried in 1979.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Being raised in churches, we’d been to
some churches that were. . .there was one that was really odd.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bible talks about a seven year period
called the Tribulation and this church was saving food for that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The pastor was telling who could get married
to who.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were like, “This is way out
of bounds.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is Ohio?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What part?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reynoldsburg.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Just outside of Columbus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We left
that church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Was that church of a denomination?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was a non-denominational church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We went back to the Assemblies of God
affiliated churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That Bible College
my dad went to was an Assembly of God. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But your grandfather was Baptist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that’s not Assemblies of God, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Just a little bit different in beliefs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I have a couple of his old books, it’s kind of neat.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Anyway, right when I was 11 or 12 I had a
unique experience in our childrens church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The leader said, “Anybody who would like to be baptized in the Holy
Spirit.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We believe in baptism in water
and being submerged and coming back out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The same term goes with being enveloped with the power of the Holy
Spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was like, “Not me, man!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That sounds really weird.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My sister raised her hand and she went
forward and they prayed for her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Suddenly she began to speak in these other languages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was probably 13.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All that week she was bouncing off the
walls.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was so happy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a joy and excitement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was totally a new person.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was like, “I want that.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The next Sunday they said, “Does anybody want
to receive that,” and I raised my hand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This is kind of odd stuff, but there’s some odd stuff in the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We can’t fully comprehend all that God is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I went forward and they began to pray
for me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was 11 years of age.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I tried to open my mouth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I heard my sister praying in this unknown
language and I began to try to repeat what she was saying and nothing came out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was no voice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was just the mouthing of the words.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Suddenly, it was like I blacked out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I opened my eyes and I’m in the foyer of the
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No idea how much time had passed
and I’m just weeping and I’m speaking in this other language.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was an amazing experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mom had to just point me home cuz I was
under the influence of the power of God so great.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right after that . . .I always wanted to
be accepted from peers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Psychologists
will say it goes way back to my dad leaving, being abandoned, the emotional
turmoil that we experiences as a family, that I wanted to be a part of
something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That need to belong.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Very important.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I started doing things that were
inappropriate to get friends.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
started going into drugs and alcohol.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Initially smoking marijuana which led me to other things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Through my teen years. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is all in Ohio?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
went to a vocational school my junior year and that was a lot of availability
of drugs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you still going to church all this
time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But I would show up and skip church with my friends and we’d go to the
bowling alley, jump the fence and turn up the drive-in speakers and watch
movies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d just hang-out in the
neighborhood and vandalize things.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I was involved in a lot of things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To support that I began to steal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d steal things out of the church cars, from
the parking lot, and sell them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Watches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whatever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sell whatever I could for my habit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Stole from my mom.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I stole what I needed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Got involved in a lot of bad stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had a friend that died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Another friend that overdosed but lived.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was planning on going to Ohio State
University and becoming an engineer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was the #1 mechanical drafter at my vocational school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I represent the class in different high
schools.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But then between my junior and senior
years of high school I wasn’t around my friends a lot.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to church on a Wednesday night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>None of my friends showed up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We sat in the back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When the songs started we stepped outside and
didn’t come back until church was over.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As I sat there, I didn’t want to run around the neighborhood alone, it
wasn’t that good of a neighborhood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
heard the message again from that pastor, my home pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt this longing in my heart.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was searching for something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt the presence of the Lord, of God, drawing
me into. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You’re talking about a specific experience?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>On that Wednesday night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Tears
came to my eyes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m wiping away
tears.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I left church that night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The next night at my home, I lived in the
basement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was great.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was able to hide drugs all over the
basement and my parents would never find them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I had a bong.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had all kinds of
stuff hidden down there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I contemplated
life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I made a decision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do I turn to this drawing that I felt with
God again, with that relationship that I once knew, or do I go my own way?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That night I got on my knees and I
prayed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “God, you know, I’m
nobody.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have nothing to offer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m a horrible person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve done horrible things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you still love me would you come and live
in me?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I felt, I physically, I
haven’t felt that ever since.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt a
physical feeling come up over me and all of the guilt and the shame and
everything just was gone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bible
talks about becoming a new person in that we’re transformed in a moment like
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My goals, my desires, everything
was totally changed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The next day I went to see my
girlfriend.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We drank one more time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “This isn’t going to work for me cuz
I don’t feel this is right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t want
to do this.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was the last time I
ever drank.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never did drugs
again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>From that moment on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I was doing drugs every day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The drug of choice at the time were what were
call Quaaludes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did Plastidils, horse
tranquilizers, heroin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did all kinds
of things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lots and lots of
cocaine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was very available.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never did it again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My goals, everything changed in my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was like a burden was lifted off of me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was free.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was still planning on going to Ohio
State University.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But about four months
later I went to Youth Camp and I experience that same experience where I would
pray and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit came upon me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not as extreme as it did when I was 11.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was pretty much coherent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It wasn’t like the power of God taking
control over me, it was something within me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Very soon after that, probably a month after that, I felt the burden and
an urgency to share the truth of God’s word with everybody.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That urgency captured. . .I was 17, almost
18, I was turning 18 in December.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt
the urgency and it was what I felt like I should do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was overwhelming to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It consumed every thought, every moment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The idea of going to Ohio State and becoming
an engineer was gone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That Spring. . . I was really embarrassed
after that Thursday night in my room alone asking God to live back in me, I was
embarrassed to tell my family cuz they were all Christians, went to church,
because I had hurt them so much, and I was embarrassed of who I had been.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I didn’t tell them for about a week or so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then in Youth Group, there’s a verse in the
Bible says if we confess our sins. . .With the heart we believe but with the
mouth confession is made to receive Christ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So I walked forward in my Youth Group in front of all of my Youth Group
and I went forward to pray and say, “Hey, I giving my life to Christ.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was water baptized soon after that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then in that December I felt that
urgency.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I talked to my parents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mom was married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mom got married in January of ’79, this
conversion experience happened on July 25, 1979.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Was the man she married a religious man?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He had never been married before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Now he’s getting four teenage kids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The guys is either crazy or just brave.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We really butted heads.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was
like, “I’m not going to church,” and he was like, “Yes you are.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“No, I’m not.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I saw him making a fist and I was like,
“Okay, I’m going.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was before I
went back to Christ.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That Spring I found out. . .My sister was
actually going to Central Bible College in Springfield, Missouri, for some kind
of teaching degree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I was familiar
with that college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So my parents and I
investigated that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The college now is
been combined with a couple other, a university and a seminary, so it’s all one
big group in Springfield, Missouri.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Central Bible College?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was called Central Bible College.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is it still called that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.. .It’s kind of like one group.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s three. . .They just made the change a
year or so ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was the Evangel
University in Springfield, Missouri, and the Assemblies of God Theological
Seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now it’s all under one
umbrella and, I think, on one campus.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the next step was, I felt that I needed
to pursue what I felt was a calling in my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So I went to four years of Bible College and graduated with a Bachelor
of Arts in Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started volunteering
in churches while I was at school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My
first church was forty-five miles north of the campus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We slept on wooden pews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It had an outhouse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A two-room schoolhouse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A bunch of chiggers and ticks and a hog farm
next door.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was like way out
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t want to be in town where
there were 50 other students doing church work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I wanted to be out there making a difference.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I left there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was required to do an internship, so I took
a church in town, I worked with another pastor there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I really didn’t know what God wanted me to do
yet, so I went through the college education.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I always enjoyed working with kids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Even growing up, if a kid got hurt I’d scoop ‘em up and run ‘em
home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just kind of supervising, taking
care of the neighborhood kids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t
know how that nurturing personality came about, it’s just who I am.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So for the next 20 years or so my wife and
I, I got married in ’84, graduated from college in ’84.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where did you meet her?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At one of the local churches where I was
doing my internship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I invited her
brother to come and do a first aid presentation to our boys group, kind of like
the Boy Scouts, it was called Royal Rangers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They’re in 60 countries around the world, a big organization.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He invited his sister to come and that’s all
it took.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There she was, man!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A year later I was married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Three months later we were engaged and nine
months after that we were married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Been
married 30 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But after that, for 25 or 26 years we were
childrens pastors, I was Christian Education Director of a church organizing
classes and teacher training.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In Missouri?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Various places.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Right after college I couldn’t get really
good jobs, so I went back to Ohio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had
a really good civil engineering company, I worked as a draftsman.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I ended up doing computer drafting and
working in a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then my wife wanted
to go back to school, so we went back to CBC, Central Bible College.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I pastured a church there, I was a Senior
Pastor for the first time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked at
an engineering firm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>From there we ended
up going to Wyoming as a Staff Pastor working underneath another pastor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How did you get to Wyoming?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Let me go back just a little bit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are three levels in the Assemblies of
God, three levels of credentials.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
first one is a Christian Worker, now it’s called Certified Minister.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You need about two years of education for
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I bypassed that because I had four
years and went straight to the next level which is License to Preach.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You take a test, the look at your life, they
evaluate you, they interview you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Who are these people?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where are they?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That was in Springfield, Missouri.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At the bible college?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Actually every . . .The Assemblies of God, there are over 65 million
adherents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s the largest Pentecostal
organization in the world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I say
Pentecostal I mean that we believe in Acts Chapter 2, what happened there with
the speaking in other languages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some
churches that’s their main emphasis, but there’s a lot of other things that
should come with that:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>love, joy, peace,
patience, gentleness, kindness, meekness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>All of these other things that a person should exhibit, not just that
area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So you may see, as you look at
other churches, some churches, that’s all they focus on, is this Pentecostal
experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that’s a very important
thing, but there are so many other things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You can be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but if you’re not showing love,
1 Corinthians 133 says you’re just a bunch of noise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So after two years of licensing I was
ordained.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I that time we had moved. .
.Let me explain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At that time my wife
had done some more schooling.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We left
that Senior Pastor and said, “You know, we’re gonna go back into childrens
ministry, working with kids.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We found a
position in Casper, Wyoming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Interviewed
over the phone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is there a Want Ads?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pretty much.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what I was saying.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the
Assemblies of God, they’ve divided the country into what they call
Districts:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Southern Missouri District –
it doesn’t have to be a state – Tennessee is just the Tennessee District.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where we’re at here is Colorado and Utah,
it’s the Rocky Mountain District.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
look and see where I want to serve and I contact the district office and say,
“Hey, do you have any open churches?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And they said, “Well, send us a Letter of
Approval from where you’re at.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cuz if
you’re causing trouble one place they don’t want you there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I go to the district office.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They gave me a reference letter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I sent it to the district, they shoot me a
list.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I send resumes to open
churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I found out about a church in Casper, a
childrens pastor position.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We served
there for two years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As a Staff Pastor
you’re working underneath another individual and sometimes that’s easy, sometimes
it’s not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The average stay for an
Associate Pastor, unfortunately, is a year and a half.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because of either personality conflicts,
leadership conflicts, could be anything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You need to be called to that area of what we call ministry because if
you have disagreements rather than stirring up people in the church, you just
back off and support the man in authority.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Sometimes you have to, not overlook compromise, I’m not saying that, but
just overlook differences.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Differences
of opinion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the Assemblies of God we
have a Statement of Belief, sixteen basic doctrines, which are very typical for
the Baptists, Methodists, so forth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
Pentecostal aspect is a little different from the Baptist and Methodist.. . .I
think Methodist. . .I can’t recall.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we ended up in Wyoming for a couple
years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We ended up, from there, moving
to Tennessee.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was your position?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Childrens Pastor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you were a Staff. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Staff Pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So this is a larger church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We probably ran about 300, something like
that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you have staff pastors here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Not yet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Does that have to do with the size of the
church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And the affordability.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To be able to afford it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This church had a difficult history.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, we’re not here yet?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So you’ll see. . . My history here has been a challenge for my wife and
I.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two years in Wyoming, we ended up
going to Tennessee.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were there almost
ten years on staff at a church as a Childrens Pastor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You said Tennessee is its own district.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m assuming the Assemblies of God is very
popular in Tennessee.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah, I think so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the Nashville area there were, like, 30
Assemblies of God churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here in Utah
we have one in St. George, one in Washington, one in Cedar City, the next one
is Richfield, the next is Salt Lake.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where is there one in St. George?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>New Life Christian Center over by Silicon
Way, the Tonaquint area, off of Dixie Drive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We were in Tennessee for a good long
time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know how detailed your
want this but my wife and I have been through some great challenges.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Six months after we moved to that church my
pastor’s wife had this epileptic thing where flashes of light would set it
off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Her daughter broke an arm when she
was preparing hot bath water on Sunday morning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There was lightening, she passed out in the bath tub and drowned, on a
Sunday morning.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Marti was
in the hospital, that was her name.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
was serious, I rushed to the hospital and there was nobody there I knew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “This is very odd.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I asked, and they said, “Who are you?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I said,
“Well, I work at the church.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And they
said, “Well, unfortunately Marti has passed away.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I was
thinking, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">broken arm, broken leg</i>,
something serious.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It just totally
floored me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to the church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Marti
was the wife?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Marti and Joel were their names.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We had a
guest speaker scheduled for that day, which is kind of an odd thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His son had drowned in an accident like 12
years to the day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was like, “Okay,
that’s just way weird.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He spoke and I
went to the house to visit my pastor and the two kids that he had, trying to
help any kind of help and council.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A
very, very difficult day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Well, about
8 or 9 years later he ended up having what we call a moral failure with a
secretary, an intimate relationship, she was already married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I found out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The secretary confessed to me and another pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Associate Pastor said, “Let me handle
it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He went to the Senior Pastor and
the pastor sought counseling and had a onetime meeting and said, “I’m good
now.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it really wasn’t good.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that wasn’t really good enough for
us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We waited to see if things would
change, and it was just a mess.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
district came in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They interviewed him
that day and he confessed and they said, “You’re not going back to the
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Someone else will clean out your
desk.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had already began to
transition.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had an interview scheduled
in Ohio for my home church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They found
out about that; that was a shock to everybody.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So we ended
up leaving there and moving to Ohio, my home church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Had a great couple years there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But there is a different challenge when you
have family attend the same church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Jesus had the same issue in Nazereth when they said, “You grew up
here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How can you be the Messiah?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We saw you playing.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was an interesting challenge to my
leadership.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of that even came from
family members.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we had a good
time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The minister there was very
effective.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The minister. . .Where we’ve
been we have seen good things happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We actually
left there, went back to the same church in Tennessee, different pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The church wanted us back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were there a couple years and the
personality of that pastor was very, very strong.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt that there was some compromise going
on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had a dinner theater and some
of the acts that they displayed I thought were inappropriate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wasn’t there, but the deacon said, “Check
out the video.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was VHS back
then.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were shocked!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was cross dressing and cigar and
alcohol.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I was like,
“What is this!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In staff meeting I share
with the staff, I said, “I feel like we. . .”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I used “we” purposefully, I didn’t want to be pin-pointing, I said
“we” as a group, “we have compromised.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That was the beginning of the end for me there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We left there on bad terms.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The pastor said some things about my wife and
I and rallied the board to believe them and we had great opposition.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which is unfortunate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We bowed out and left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Within a year later it was discovered that
that pastor also had a moral failure in that time it was going on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just very unfortunate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">From there
we ended up going to Montana.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whitefish,
Montana.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The most Godliest man. . .And
earlier you mentioned about having religion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There are a lot of religions out there, things that man has created,
having the appearance of Godliness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
our focus isn’t on a religion, an organization, or anything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s on that intimate relationship with God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yes, we call ourselves a fellowship more than
a denomination or more than an organization.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We went to
Montana and an incredible ministry there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This man, I felt such freedom to go to him and share with him my
problems.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So many other times as a Staff
Pastor you felt you had to protect your family and yourself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I had a great relationship with this
man.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were there for three years and
God began to do something to my heart, I had no idea what it was, but I went to
my pastor and said, “I’m struggling because I feel like God is telling me to
leave.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I’m just loving it
here.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was what they call a small
group coordinator.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was in charge of
the educational aspect of the church, and childrens pasturing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Very busy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">That’s
where David was born.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had adopted
Jeremiah back in Tennessee in 1998 is when we got him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>David was born in 2004 while we were in
Montana.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had to Life Flight him,
Life Flight my wife to Missoula.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
doctors didn’t think that my wife of the baby would live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She had a low amniotic fluid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Came to find out that her umbilical cord,
they have three strands, she only had two.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So David wasn’t growing as rapid as possible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had countless ultrasounds thinking that .
. .We thought the date of conception was here, but we’re not sure because he’s
not growing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The doctor was very
negative.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That night they Life Flighted
Lisa to the hospital.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a bad
storm, snowing, icing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Higher
elevations, rain on the lower elevations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My pastor drove to Missoula, leading me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He was going to drop his son off at his parent’s house, cuz he was
getting me there quicker.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If he would’ve
drove off a cliff, I was right behind him, we would’ve went together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I get there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Rush into the operating room and it’s a mess.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But she had a big old smile on her face,
little David came out screaming, he was ticked off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because of that it helped develop his
lungs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was three months premature.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s when the lungs are developing, a very
critical developmental stage, and he came out perfectly healthy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Seven and eight and the Apgar scale, out of
10.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Full term babies score that,
maybe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was off of all breathing
machines in three days.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Was there 2½
months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They took my ring off and put
his hand through there all the way to his armpit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I laid a paper next to him and sketched him,
11½ long, just like a GI Joe doll.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His
body was improportional or unproportional.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>His head was about that big.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His
torso seemed long but his legs seemed short.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was odd.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But what a trooper.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Came home at 4½ pounds.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I struggled
because I didn’t want to leave.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I loved
the snow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was a great place of
ministry for us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t really
understand what was going on at the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Now, looking back, I see the overall picture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We moved to
Illinois to a place called Normal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just
south of Chicago, near State Farm headquarters, Bloomington-Normal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Three-thousand miles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Showed up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Three weeks later that pastor that hired me resigns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the church world that I’m affiliated with
the pastor hires you and fires you and if he leaves you submit your
resignation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had just unpacked the
last box and three weeks later he resigns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m like, “What’s going on?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
leaves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they’re searching for a new
pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re just holding the church
together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was 9 months until they got
a new pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When that pastor came in,
he has the freedom to hire his own staff, which he wanted to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I had
interviewed over the phone with a church in Oregon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It looked really good.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were flying my wife and I out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were one of two candidates that they were
going to consider.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were actually the
top candidate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We get there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Interview.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The other candidate. . .There were five on the committee, deacons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Five said “Nope, you’re not the man.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And out of the other ones, three said “yes,”
two said “no” for us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we got a slap
on the back and they said, “Sorry, you’re out of here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We wanted a 100% vote.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Typically how it goes is you take your top candidate,
you present it to the people, and the people make that decision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the way it’s supposed to run.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because if one guy gets mad at you or if you
remind him of somebody, he may not vote for you and it would jeopardize your
potential job there at the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not
giving everybody a chance to interview you and ask questions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We left
there, no job.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had quit looking for a
job, and I had already resigned from the church in Illinois.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we had to move out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d we were like, “We’re homeless.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We moved to
Springfield, Missouri.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had some
relatives there, we lived in the basement for three months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a finished basement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was really nice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You could hear everybody upstairs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And
you were a family of four?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And one dog.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A beagle.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was not fun.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had to be quiet, for three months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Watch our noise.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was very difficult, two families living
together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we moved out and moved into a
motel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A one room hotel for six
months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two boys and a dog.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was interesting because during that time I
would go out and pray and I’d seek jobs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I contacted people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Networking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I sent out dozens and
dozens of resumes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It seemed that every
door was shut.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nothing was opening up
for us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Month after month after
month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d go out and pray and it was
like . . .In prayer I’ve never heard God’s audible voice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But you’d feel, kind of like your conscience
if you know you’re not going to do something right, something tells you it’s
not right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s kind of how God speaks
to us and through the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t
feel him talking to me at all.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Month
after month after month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I cried out to
Him like, “Where are you?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m in this
place, not because of anything I’ve done, but because of all of these other
situations and men that have forced my family through this difficulty.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I even became suicidal at that time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But life insurance doesn’t pay for that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was at the bottom of my barrel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt like I was abandoned, rejected.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everything that I believed in was stripped
away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you playing guitar this whole time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Well I picked it up in college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
use it as a personal thing between me and God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Then I got to a church that needed music and I was like, “Well, that’s
mine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s between me and God.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I started playing it in churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s where it has gone to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As I look back now I see the bigger
picture and I have a greater understanding, maybe not fully, but God was
removing everything that I trusted in:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>experience, my skills, my network.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Everything that I had relied upon and even trusted in, God just stripped
them away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As I look back, He wanted to
know if I was going to totally and wholly trust Him, even when I lost it
all.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was the hardest thing in my
life to go through because I saw my family struggling.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to get a job as a substitute teacher
in the Springfield school system and they weren’t hiring.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I had to work in a school district that
had six schools.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Very few jobs opened
up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was good at what I did, I’m great
with kids, teens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have a great rapport
with that area of children.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The income
was very, very poor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My parents helped
subsidize our hotel stay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got a job at
McDonalds.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s all part, what I see
now is God saying, “Do you really believe me?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Do you really trust me?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Even when
I take everything away from you, will you trust me?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a story in the Bible about Job, a
worse case than me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of his kids died
and all of his land was taken and all of his livestock and servants were
gone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had sores all over his body.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fortunately God didn’t take me that
direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then I had an interview for a job in
Farmington, Virginia.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Was it
Farmington?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No no no.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Farmville.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Nearing the end they just felt like it wasn’t right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was just a couple weeks away from being a
personal interview.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We just
continued to search.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We ended up going
to a church in Cape Girardeau, Missouri.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>When I showed up it was a non-denominational church, new to the
Assemblies of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had a very nice
facility.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fifteen acres of land.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The pastor had left because of a moral
failure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">By the way,
that Illinois pastor, we found out a year later, he had gone to Springfield,
Missouri and found out it was a moral failure as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why he was asked to leave.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m like, “Where is the integrity?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Very frustrating.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This church
in Cape Girardeau, its pastor left with a moral failure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The church split.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We get there and there are 15 people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were there 2 years, the church grew to be
60.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But they were very contrary to
leadership and authority.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “We
need to do background checks on those that work with our kids.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The board
was like, “No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t need to do
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re a small church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t want to have social security numbers
in the facility.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Someone could access
them.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I said,
“I’m sorry. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re gonna do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because if a kid gets molested I go to jail.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Are
you the senior pastor there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Oh oh!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yeah!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of this difficulty and that inclination
in Wyoming, or Montana when I felt God was leading me someplace.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He brought me through that horrible journey,
through over a year in Illinois and this difficulty.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>About two years of time struggling.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I realized that God was waking me up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was transitioning me out of childrens
ministry into adult ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I see
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He made my life uncomfortable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Next time I’ll just listen.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s much easier.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We went into . . .<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nobody would hire me as a Senior Pastor
because I had 25 years of childrens ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was chancy to hire someone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Plus, two years in Wyoming and two years in whatever.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>PJ TAKES A PHONE CALL.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I STOP THE RECORDING, AND START UP AGAIN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I realize now as I look back that God was
forcing his hand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was difficult.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The church that we were hired into had a
difficult past with the moral failure split.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They went to the Assembly of God which came up on my radar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I ended up there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it worked out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we had a difference in vision, where we
wanted to take the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They voted on
us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For a church to vote out a pastor,
cuz they didn’t really want to follow my lead anymore, it requires a 2/3 majority
vote.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They didn’t get that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we were able to stay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But some of my board members and a host of
other people left the church, took their giving with them, so the church was
going to crumble and go under.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So my
wife and I went ahead and resigned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
as soon as we did they did what is called “disaffiliated,” disaffiliated with
the Assemblies of God, said, “We no longer want to be.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the Assemblies of God, they would step in
and take the property and all the assets and sell them or start a new
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And they just said, “It’s all
yours.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Take it and go.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I communicated with the district and local
churches and friends of mine, other pastors, kind of let them know what was
happening for their networking support.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We weren’t doing anything wrong.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s just that they didn’t want. . .they wanted to leave the way it was
supposed to go.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Anything with two heads
is a freak, you know what I mean?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
just doesn’t operate that well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we left there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We ended up in Tennessee.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Before, I was a childrens pastor south of
Nashville in Murfreesboro.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now we took a
senior pasturing in Ashland City, just out of Northwest Nashville.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The pastor had been there 20 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He became the leader of the whole district,
Superintendent we call it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Well known,
well liked.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Established ministry
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s difficult to follow somebody
in that capacity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I came in as a new pastor and I’m
unpacking boxes.. . something’s gonna happen. . .Four weeks after we got there
Nashville had a flood, in 2010.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had 5
feet of water in our building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We lost
all of our computers, data bases, records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I lost 5,000 plus dollars of my personal stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My guitar was in a hard case on a credenza,
it floated across my office, landed, and the hard case had cracks in it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Water had got in around the Styrofoam but my
guitar, which is about a $1,000 guitar, is totally dry after days and days of
full of water, waiting for it to recede.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Over 20 people died in that flood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Over 12 inches of rain in a short amount of time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Wolf Creek Dam in Kentucky, 2 reservoirs in
Nashville were already full and they said, “We have to let the water go.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They just dumped it, middle of the
night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No warning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just horrible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I went to church on that Sunday morning,
the water had come up to the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
did a phone tree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “Don’t come to
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are flash flood warnings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s too dangerous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The water is out of the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re okay.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I went home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two hours later I
get a call and they said, “It’s knee deep in the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The police are here throwing us out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have put computers on the desks trying to
salvage things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Don’t come.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Well, I
came anyway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “I’ve got to
go.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had a rope tied from our
mailbox to a pole and we were able to get it, but the Cumberland River backed
up and was flowing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nothing we could do.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Several
days later. . .We got in on Wednesday as the water was slowly receding. Knee
deep still.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was Class 3 water.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It had sewage in it, very toxic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We went in with five feet of water it didn’t
help putting the computers on the desks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were all shot.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went into
my office, it was devastating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New
pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Didn’t know what to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I secured an old grocery store.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were going to meet there temporarily.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The city took it over.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They took it from us and said, “We’re using
it as a distribution for blankets and food.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I said,
“You know what, that’s okay, take it.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">A Nazarene
Church called us and said, “You can meet in our church as often as you want for
free for as long as you want.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
didn’t charge us a dime.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met there
for 7 months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I secured a small business
loan through the government for $300,000.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It wasn’t enough to replace everything that we lost, but it was enough
to get us in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To save money, because of
my previous skill, I was a general contractor, I collected bids and through our
group we determined who was going to do the work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of volunteer work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have a ministry in the Assembly of God
called MAPS, MAPS workers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are
retired laborers who have skills and they travel about the country in their RVs
and help churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a finish
carpenter come in and we stripped out all of the cabinetry in the kitchen.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He built cabinets for us for free, we just
provided the materials.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a drywall
guy come in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were being asked for
bids up to $50 to $90,000 to dry out the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That didn’t even fix it, dry it out, which
was key.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was coordinating the fans and
dehumidifiers from all over the state to bring them on site.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Servicemaster, all these guys were coming in
with $100,000 bids and I was like, “You know, I don’t have a dime.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Off they’d go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This other
company, from Virginia drove in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I told
him, “We’re not accepting anymore bids.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">He said,
“Can we just take a look around?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I said,
“Yeah, but I’m sorry, I don’t even have time to give you a tour.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m coordinating a hundred volunteers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The National Guard is on site.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a big disaster.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So they
looked around and came back and said, “I think we can help you.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I was like,
“Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How much is your bid?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I actually said, “Here come some vultures,”
when I saw them driving in, to a friend.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Later I had to repent for that because he walked up and said, “We want
to dry out your building for free.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I was like,
“What?!’<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “Don’t move!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I ran and got a deacon and I came back
out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were there for months to dry
out the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a concrete
block structure, metal frame.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had
beaded insulation, very hard to dry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They brought in a furnace on wheels that pumped 230 degree temperature
for 3 or 4 days into the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
taped off plastic to focus the heat on the concrete to dry out this beaded
insulation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They could test it to see if
there was moisture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They spent well over
half a million dollars to dry out the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They left giant dehumidifiers, four of them, there for months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had a staff there on-site.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They helped us gut the place.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We
only have a few minutes left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How did
you get here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After that, we got the building dried out, we
got it reconstructed in 7 months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was
an amazing construction project.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had
a grand reopening.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a country
artist there, I can’t remember her name.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was an amazing time, because some of them live right there in
Nashville.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I had a great challenge with some of my
deacons through this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m still not at
liberty to share some of those details, but I went to the district, I went to
my pastoral friends and I shared with them, I said, “How do I handle this
situation?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d been senior pasturing
now for just a few years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They said, “You know what, you can stay at
the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have every right to
stay, but if you stay it will probably cause a split in the church and it would
hurt your credibility in the community.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was like, “Man!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here I am dragging my family around the
country, very difficult.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we’ve hit
some difficult things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Instead of making
waves, instead of staying and being right, I took their council and we bowed
out and left.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We sent resumes from Maryland to
Washington State.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During that time, this
church opened up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I found out about
their financial mess, about their moral failure from their previous pastor, the
church split, no pastor for a year and I was like, “Forget it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sounds like the Cape Girardeau church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t want it.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A couple weeks later they said, “Would you
reconsider?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Let me pray and fast,” go without
food, and praying at the time for a decision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>After three days I felt comfortable and I said, “Yeah, consider my
name.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They said, “Good, cuz we never took your
name off the list.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we ended up coming here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A unanimous vote to have us staff here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They didn’t promise us a great salary
package, but when we got here they were able to pay us $2,300 a month that I
didn’t expect.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I substitute teach off
and on through the week to subsidize. . .My wife works to subsidize.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve seen the church grow up to. . .They had
about 50 people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It grew up to about
140.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were some great challenges
being non-denominational.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of
different beliefs that we didn’t really believe in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had to address those people and people
would get offended and leave and the church started trickling.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It got to about 100 and then we had a
conflict last year and a key couple in our church left, our Worship
Leader.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I did it correctly as far as
leadership goes, keeping open communication, getting great council, and
together making a decision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of
times you can make a decision and it burns you and you can’t recoup those
damages.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">But in the
short amount of time I’ve been a pastor I’ve been learning, and with great
council, I’ve made the right decisions and to be able to survive those
challenges.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our congregation went back
down to about 60-65 in attendance with that hit we took in late November.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a church-wide thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were able to survive it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Basically, there was an adult that verbally
and almost physically attacked one of our youth members, it happened to be my
son, my older son, they got into a verbal altercation, but the adult was out of
control, threatened to call the police because they were not helping at a yard
sale like they should have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Teens are
teens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They work a little bit and goof
off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had to handle that in a very
neutral aspect, keep very calm about it and have a good result.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was able to lead the people through that
and for six or seven months later, going through all of these situations keep
coming up, people coming and going and leaving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We dwindled down to about 60ish, 65ish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Now we’re back up to averaging, we had 87 last Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Growing again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This
morning we met at another facility.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re contemplating moving by the end of the year to another facility.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I
was here when this was a restaurant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What happened was a couple that wanted to
help the church, the pastor, the first pastor said, “This would make a great
church.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They went out and cashed-in
their retirement and bought the building and said, “Now the church can buy it
from us.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And through the difficulties,
they’ve never been able to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And they
really want to retire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They said, “You
guys make a decision.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In May our church
people voted not to buy the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
couldn’t afford it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With the price of
the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a $650,000 loan to
refurbish it, and it’s not done yet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
have another $400,000 to finish it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re going to spend $1.7 million on a building that’s market valued at
$1.1.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I sought lots of council, provided
for the people, and was neutral, let them make the decision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They decided not to purchase the
building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The couple that own the
building attend here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Trying to gently
work through these challenges, and it’s been going well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s been a difficult past for my wife and
I.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It seems to be a common pattern.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some pastors, like the guy at the Baptist
Church, he’s been there forever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
Grace Baptist Church in Washington.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s
been here for 30 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Tom has been
there 15 or 20 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then other places.
. .it seems like you guys do a lot of moving around in this profession.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If it is a profession.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe you call it a calling or
something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It very much looks like a
profession.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s a job.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I work on Sundays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I tell you
what, in conclusion, my life was totally changed in 1979.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was filled with fear and anger and
hatred.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was a horrible
individual.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had no hope.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of that changed in a moment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s great evidence, nothing I can put on
the table here, but there’s no evidence of the wind, either.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But you can feel it and you can see its
effects.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To me, that’s enough evidence
to prove there’s wind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What I have seen.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What I have been through.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s amazing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s been incredible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s what
brought me here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Praise God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-72537101547136084952022-05-15T14:07:00.002-06:002022-05-18T14:14:02.596-06:00Interview with Pastor Rick, Grace Baptist Church<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Pastor Rick<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Grace Baptist Church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Washington, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place in Pastor
Rick’s office at the church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">August 19, 2015<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is Pastor Rick of the Grace Baptist
Church in Washington, Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first
basic question, Pastor, is if you could tell me a bit of your biography.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How did you end up here at Grace Baptist
Church in Washington, Utah?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can go
back pretty far, to your childhood if you want.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Pastor
Rick:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I grew up in Western
Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Was born in a hospital just
two blocks from that lake.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I grew up in
a family that was very much church oriented.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My parents were very involved in our small country church, Bible Church,
not a Baptist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For me, my walk with God
started around six years old.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can
still vividly remember, approximately the first grade, in Sunday School the
teacher was talking about heaven and hell.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>She had made it clear that, as the scriptures say, that the Bible says
that all are sinners, we’ve all fallen short of God’s standard of
holiness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I understood that at age
six.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She explained that Jesus came to
the earth a preexistent Son of God that had been eternal, but he came to the
earth as a man and was born in Bethlehem, you know that story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He eventually died on the cross for the sins
of the whole world as the New Testament points out over and over and over and
over again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She made it clear that there
is a remedy for sin nature that automatically separates all of us from
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In other words our sin nature, when
we’re born, which we got from Adam, the first man, is our human destruction to
hell.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bible speaks of being born
again and being saved, various terms, justified, redeemed, born again, all
these different terms that speak about a new life that we have in Christ by
accepting his death on the cross and his subsequent resurrection as the means
of our salvation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In other words, he
paid the penalty for our sins.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bible
speaks of the fact that men in themselves can do nothing by their good works,
by being a good person, giving money, getting baptized, church membership, none
of those things can make a man worthy of heaven.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s all based on Jesus’ death and
resurrection.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So at age six she made
hell seem like a scary place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember after one particular
Sunday, she led in prayer and I silently prayed, I confessed my own personal
sins to God and asked Him to forgive me through Jesus’ death and resurrection.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So at age
six I got saved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It didn’t really mean a
whole lot to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Obviously I wasn’t a
terrible sinner at that age, but it became meaningful to me when I was
fourteen, my father passed away from a heart attack very sudden, very
unexpected, and I began to sense that God had something for me that’s just not
a common thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I figured that it was
God reaching out to me in a very different kind of way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t know what. it meant at that time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Well, when
I was 18, 19, 20 years old, after high school I went to college for a year and
I was dissatisfied about it, for about a year, year and a half.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d gotten a job. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is
this still in Western Michigan?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>. . .Just feeling like I was alone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was never much of a dater.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was shy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think I developed a bad attitude, poor self-image after my father died
for some reason.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never dated
much.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was a loner, at least after high
school when my friends started going to college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I flunked out in about a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t know what I was doing or where I was
going.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After about a year, year and a half, I
tried different things to try to make up for the void in my life and nothing
seemed to work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I met my future
wife.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started dating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our first date was actually in her Baptist
Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a huge, like, 1,000
member church in Muskegon, the big town.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Muskegon is just up from where I lived.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was the name of your town?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Fruit Port.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We started dating pretty much
regularly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We fell in love.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Less than a year later we were married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But before we got married I was starting to
find some spiritual revival in her church because the pastor was very much a
good teacher.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our church, that I grew up
in was more doctrinally related like, “Thus saith the lord.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And this particular Baptist Church, which
most of them are that way, was very practical, “This is how the Bible relates
to your life.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I hadn’t heard a lot
about that, so I really began to grow in my faith, gain strength in my
Christian faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not like it ever
deserted me or I ever wanted to not appreciate it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just that for awhile it wasn’t very meaningful
to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My church had kind of had a
couple splits and it was just a handful of people, I was about the only one my
age.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All that played into it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So after we were married, my wife and I
started getting involved with a junior high youth program teaching Sunday
School to them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Through the Baptist Church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Through her own church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She grew up there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got involved in an Awana Ministry, which
is like a Christian Boy Scouts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
stands for “Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed,” 2 Timothy 2:15.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was a Tuesday night program for
elementary kids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got involved as
leaders in that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we got more
involved with. . .I became a Deacon in the church, eventually.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Through that my secular job, I was working
for General Telephone at that time, started to seem less and less appealing and
I began to sense that God was leading me to something else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Really, I didn’t know it at that time, but I
was being called into the ministry through all that Christian service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was convicted that I needed to <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>go to Bible College to fulfill what God was
leading me to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Through Bible College we
moved to Pennsylvania, near Scranton, Baptist Bible College.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s what it’s called?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, it was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They just changed it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now it’s
Summit University.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Clark Summit is that
name of the town.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of these
colleges are taking the “Baptist” out anymore because they don’t want to . .
.it’s politically not as acceptable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m
not in favor of that at all, but they didn’t ask me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The point is that when I went to that
college, actually they made me proud to be a Baptist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I understood it before, but not having been
raised that way, getting that education made me proud of being a Baptist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why it stunned me this year when they
decided to do that, what they did at that university.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we were done with that we moved back
to Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was thinking I was maybe
going to be a youth pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of
bigger churches have multi-pastor staffs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We have youth pastors in our home church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what I thought at the time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What’s the name of the Baptist Church in
Michigan?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Calvary Baptist Church and they, too, about
ten years ago took the “Baptist” out and became Calvary Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they kind of deserted that Baptist
heritage.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that’s a whole ‘nother
story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We were looking for a ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We found out that if you know people it
helps.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t know anybody.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had, the college would send out our resume
to churches that they knew of.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In our
home church, they supported a Baptist Missionary here in Utah who had been up
in Orem, Utah, for several years before that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He made it known that he was looking for someone to help him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He belonged to a mission agency out of Cleveland,
Ohio, called Baptist Mid-Missions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A mission agency?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That is an agency that sends out missionaries
all around the world, and it helps that local church, like our home church, to
do all the government stuff and taxes, all the red tape.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what they do.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This one is specific to the Baptist Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And it was called Baptist Mid-Missions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It still is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We joined up with
them after our home church ordained me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And ordination is your home church’s acceptance of your calling, having
seen you in action they approve and ordain you into the ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that happened about the same time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You can take that ordination with you to
other places.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s right up there [on his wall, like a diploma].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So what happened is they made it possible
for us to fly out to Orem and spend a couple weeks with him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was, at that time, planning on coming down
here from Orem.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reason why is that
his church up there was almost self-supporting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Missionaries have their own support.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In Baptist circles they have different churches support them financially
and before they can go to the field wherever that might be they have to achieve
a certain amount or level of monthly income in order to survive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Through your home church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They support you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s part of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But then you go around to different churches
to present your ministry and a lot of them take you on and support you for so
much every month, out of their missionary fund.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Which is provided the congregants.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A lot of those churches, depending on the size, some of them have a few
missionaries that they support, some of them have 20 or 30.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sometimes they support you for $50, maybe
$100 per month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They send it to the
mission that becomes your employer, IRS-wise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you go around and try to get a bunch of
different churches. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You try to line up different churches to
speak in and share what God has laid on your heart.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So $50 or $100 from this one and $50 or $100
from that one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We did that for two years to get that income before we came here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>While we were in Orem we came down to St.
George and checked it out for a day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
decided that it was God’s will for us to work with him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So after the two years of raising finances,
they call it deputation . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is in Michigan or Orem?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But we did get into Ohio and Pennsylvania.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s all Baptist Churches, we weren’t
interested in money from other denominations that had different beliefs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, on a weekend you and your wife would
drive down to a Baptist Church somewhere else in Michigan or maybe North Indiana
or . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yep.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I was working at that time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you set it up ahead of time and they let
you give a service. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What we did at that time, we had a slide
presentation, not they have PowerPoint and computers and the whole bit, but at that
time we showed slides to their whole church, and preached and sometimes they
had missionary conferences for a few days where every night they’d have a
service and invite missionaries that they support or some that are looking for
support come in and do their thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>After you’ve been there a lot of times they’ll decide “maybe we want to
take this family on for support.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I will tell you, one of the biggest things
we did on deputation was to show the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Godmaker</i>
film.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Are you familiar with that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m not familiar with it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s called <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Godmaker</i>?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">God
Makers</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It came out in the early
‘80s and it was blasphemy to the Mormon Church because it was a Christian film
put out by ex-Mormons who had accepted Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They put out this film about what Mormons
believe because, I found out in our travels that hardly anybody knew what
Mormons were about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the Midwest we
found out there were all kinds of what used to be the Reformed Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I learned
some about them and what happened after Joseph Smith died.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because we had this film, it was a
powerful tool for us to gain support, really.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We got our support.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That film is
almost obsolete now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got our support
and by that time that pastor was down here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Grace Baptist Church had been in existence six months before we got here
but they didn’t have a building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We used
to meet in. . .down in Washington they have that building on the corner that
used to be a school, it’s now a museum.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We met there at first.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve been
next door in the clubhouse next door while this church was being built.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The RV Park next door.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s their clubhouse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s on the other side of the fence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are two buildings over there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a few baptisms in their pool, that
kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we met in the Star
Nursery, used to be a cotton mill, for awhile.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What’s the name of the other guy?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mike Bardon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He is now somewhere over by Ephraim.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I got here in 1986, in October it’ll be 29 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our building was built between August and
December of ’88.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After the building was completed, our first
service was the Sunday before Christmas that year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The following May, he and his wife left the
area here, they went to somewhere in the middle of Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They wanted to start another church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His wife contacted a disease and part of the
cure is to leave the area that you’re at.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>At that time I became the official pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was in ’89.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Washington was really small then.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>St. George, too.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was no mall.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of things are different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So that’s how I got here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we give our donations in church, you
divide that up into different things?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have a budget.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re incorporated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have so much that we need to take in, on
average, every week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’ve seen that in your program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you support missionaries?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We do not, really.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What we kind of do is try to help those locally that have needs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We get a lot of people, most of them have
some sort of association with us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
have so many needs because of the economy and some of them are young
families.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s kind of our mission
budget.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They give a certain amount to
me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not enough for me to sustain a
living, that’s why I work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What work do you do?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I work for two hospice agencies as
chaplain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just started working the
second one a year ago this month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both
of them are very much part time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So
between three jobs, I live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My wife
works also, for Beehive Homes as activities person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how we get our income.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you’ve been here almost thirty years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yep.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Getting on there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How has the church changed in those thirty
years?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not a lot.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We have taken a lot of . . .we take a lot of pride it not changing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’ll notice we sing what are referred to as
the old hymns of the faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re not
into contemporary Christian music, worship bands, the worship groups they have
up front, that sort of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Obviously
we don’t do that, you’ve seen that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re still old fashion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of
times when we talk about ourselves we describe ourselves as a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Little House on the Prairie</i> kind of
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Family-oriented, more or
less.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m not saying the others aren’t
that way, I’m just saying that we’re different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s very cozy and family feeling.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At Bible Study the other night there are kids
in the hallway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s almost like you’re
grandma and grandpa’s house.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s kind of the way we like it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve never been very big, because the
current trend is contemporary rock music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re just not into that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is the way I’ve been thinking about
things as I’ve been going to different churches, there are the traditional
institutional churches, like Catholics or the Episcopalians or the Lutherans,
and you go to one of those churches and there’s all the symbolism, they wear
the outfits, pretty traditional hymns and such.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Then you go to the more contemporary Bible Churches and they have the
band up there and the pastor is dressed in contemporary clothes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You guys seem somewhere in the middle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I can understand why you’d say that, it’s
true.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Baptists historically are, if I
may use the term, anti-clerical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
don’t go in for the word clergy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That
represents kind of a higher class of Christian that wears robes and sets them
apart from everybody else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Baptists
historically have not been that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
pastor is no more blessed than anybody else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The only difference is he’s called of God to be a pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bible does speak of giving him honor
because of that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But not because he’s
more spiritual or anything else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
thing is that in modern Christianity a lot of churches have forsaken a lot of
the truths of the bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of
denominations have real battles within them over years, going back to the last
couple of hundred years, but especially the last hundred years, between
modernism and liberals compared to the traditionalists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The difference is that a lot of them have,
you know, they don’t believe that the Bible is the entire word of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They don’t hold to some of the truths;
they’ve changed their minds about creation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Like the Episcopalians?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A lot of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I won’t say any in particular, cuz I don’t
always know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just about every major
denomination has had to deal with these issues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Years ago it was the evolution thing versus creationism and the battle
for the Bible which is whether the Bible is the entire word of God with no
mistakes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of them don’t believe
that any more.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then the current
trend towards accepting homosexuals and even women ministers, they’re having
more of that in the LDS Church lately, they’re raising their voices in some
ways to that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All these issues that are
social and the Church has to deal with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What the social world doesn’t understand, or the world in general, is
that, at least for churches like ours, I can’t speak for all of them, our stand
is on the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is the absolute
standard of authority that we believe and base everything on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So when the Bible says something negative
about a current issue then that’s our stand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s never going to change.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do different Baptist Churches has different
interpretations?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s different Baptist groups.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Southern Baptists is a convention.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They have more of a denomination type thing whereas we’re strictly
independent, we’re not tied to any denomination or association.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s different Baptist groups that are
more strict.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Have you ever heard of Bob
Jones University?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I have.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t know about the current trend, but
they have always been very strict.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For
example, boys and girls have to be a certain distance from each other if they
walk down the same sidewalk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Things like
that. Standards is what we’re talking about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And it’s always been that way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Different
Baptists, some of them believe the King James Version of the Bible is the only
Bible there is, period.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most Baptist
churches have gone to some of the newer, modern versions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Obviously we have not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve stuck with the King James, that’s my
personal preference.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So there’s a lot of
different Baptist groups that have different ideas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Earlier you made a distinction. . .you said
growing up you went to a Bible Church, not a Baptist Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What’s that distinction?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The difference in that one, it’s not like the
one that’s over here in Washington, Southland Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This one is almost like Baptists in just
about everything except they didn’t baptize.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were very much opposed to water baptism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And they have Bible reasons for believing
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have a gospel, I mean a
fellowship of churches that believe that way nation-wide.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So it’s very Baptistic in some ways but not
in that way which is the main thing, obviously, main difference between them
and a Baptist Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Being part of that
church was not that different when I started going to my wife’s Baptist
Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I did have to change gears
and change my views on things because the Baptist Church I was taught things
that I had heard preaching against, mainly water baptisms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And that is where “Baptist” comes from,
right?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The name?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Immersion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I changed my view
on that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was actually baptized by
water before we were even married after I had been going there for several
months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It made sense so I did it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One thing, though, you were talking about
a lot of the things that these different churches have in common, all of them
pretty much agree, I just want to say this, on the person of Jesus. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We all agree on the basic gospel as far as his
death and resurrection.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Real
Christianity, you know, no Baptist would say, “I’m going to go to heaven
because I’m a Baptist.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They would say,
“I’m going to heaven because I’m a Christian, or Born Again,” or whatever word
you want to use.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The whole idea of
Christianity is just not religion, which many times is defined as man seeking
God, where Christianity is God seeking man, but Christianity really is a
relationship between a person and Christ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In the Bible we’re told to have a standard of living that would be
pleasing to Him and we’re told, that being in the Bible, as much as we can,
will make us more in His image, as far as our practices in everyday life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why here we emphasize the Bible and
teach the Bible because the Bible does speak of itself as being the means by
which a person can become more like Christ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s the Earthly goal is to be like Him as we go about our business in
whatever job or occupation you may have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s why we put so much emphasis on the Bible, because here we believe
it’s not just God’s word, it’s a standard of living and also our only means of
knowing how to please Him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the
difference.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t look at it as
religion because of the fact, occasionally I’m called religious or something
like that and I understand what they’re saying, but if that’s all I was I
wouldn’t be a Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a lot
of religions that don’t have anything to do with Christ, or they’re misguided
in their views of Christ cuz they don’t really believe the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And may I say also one of the differences
here and a lot of other denominations, is that we believe the Bible is to be
understood literally, interpreted literally.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Most of the other denominations do not do that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have a different form of theology that
came from Luther and Calvin and some of the reformers that is a different interpretation
of the Bible generally than the Baptistic view and even the Bible Church view
and some of the other churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
the difference between some of the denominations is how they interpret the
Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve been taught my whole life to
interpret it in a literal view, recognizing it has figures of speech and
metaphors and things like that, obviously.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s how we read it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Does that literalism change in different
versions of the Bible?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s not that so much, although some
versions, like the New International version that’s so popular nowadays, it’s a
paraphrase.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In other words, it’s not a
literal translation, but it’s a paraphrase.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There are a couple other versions that are very true to the original
manuscripts which are Hebrew and Greek, between the Old and the New, and
they’re accurate as far as that goes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There are some, as I said, Baptist Churches that have a King James only
mentality, that it’s the only Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
am not that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If somebody wants to
use another version that’s between them and God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But, for me, I love the King James.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is the Baptist Church a Protestant Church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Technically not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of the time we’re thought of that way
because if you’re not Catholic you’re Protestant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Actually in the Reformation era the reformers
were persecuting the Anabaptists, the pre-Baptist churches were called
Anabaptists, they were persecuting them because they insisted on baptizing
people after they got saved and not as babies or as infants.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And again were going back to interpreting the
Bible differently.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reformers were
even persecuting what became known as Baptists.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Tell me what Anabaptist means.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t know what it exactly means, but it’s
what Baptists were called before they were called Baptists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It goes back to the Middle Ages and the
Reformation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Historically, there’s
always been Christians who have believed Baptist doctrine, even in the Dark
Ages, and were not part of the Catholic Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was Luther that made the biggest impact.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After him other reformers picked up his
mantle, so to speak, and brought about the changes that needed to be made.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Baptists technically
are not really Protestant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because we’re not really in the same
theological camp as the rest of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Baptists, when it comes to baptism, believe
you have to make a conscious choice, is that right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s because that in the Scriptures, and I’m not talking about John the
Baptist and his baptism cuz that has nothing to do with Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the early Church, the Book of Acts and the
Epistles, people were saved first and then they were baptized as a testimony of
their faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reformers would baptize
infants and youngsters without any knowledge of what the Gospel is or Word of
God or anything else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the
difference between Baptists and a lot of the other denominations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Later baptisms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Upon your profession of faith we baptize people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Saved first.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So what is the purpose of the baptism.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s to identify with the Lord Jesus and his
death, burial, and resurrection.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That
comes from the Book of Romans, Chapter 6. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To identify with Him and kind of make a public
testimony of your faith.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is that your pool back there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We have a tub.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve always
thought it would be cool to do it in a lake somewhere but a lot of them around
here have muddy bottoms, clay bottoms, and are pretty slick, and a lot of them
are seniors and they don’t want to do that anyway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We use to do them in pools before we got this
building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not where you do it but
it’s how you do it and when you do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The immersion part is very important unlike some that sprinkle and
things like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everything is done
with a purpose because that’s what we believe the Bible teaches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And it’s important to have witnesses to the
baptism?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s what we refer to as an ordinance at a
local church, not a sacrament.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a
difference between that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because it’s an
ordinance of a local church it’s sanctioned by the local church and ordained by
the local church, in other words I don’t baptize people on my own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would never do it apart from the knowledge
and the okay of this church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Baptist
circles, not all of them, but most Baptists, when you get Baptized you become a
member of the church, also.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But not
before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What are you called before?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not before they get baptized.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They can be saved but until they get baptized
they are not eligible to become a member.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The only reason for that is because baptism was the fundamental truth
taught by the Lord as the next thing after you’re salvation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To be saved and then baptized.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Therefore, to become a member of a church,
which doesn’t guarantee anything eternally, it’s just God’s way of working, He
workds through local churches, in order to be a member you have to baptized
based on His instruction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>If you’ve been baptized and become a member
of one church, let’s say you move from Washington to Seattle, can you take that
membership with you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our constitution allows, and most Baptist
Churches do that as well, for people that have moved here that have already
been baptized, we don’t believe you have to do it more than once, just like you
don’t have to be saved more than once, we accept by Letter of Transfer their
membership and their Christian experience in that other church wherever it may
be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What if they got baptized in something that
wasn’t a Baptist Church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>If the church believes in the same idea of
baptism as we do it’s okay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If they’ve
been immersed, it they believe that it’s a testimony and identification with
Christ, then that’s okay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We call it
“Membership by Christian Experience.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s room for them in our church, too.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some people, to be honest. . .We’ve had a few
people here that have gotten baptized when they were young and, for one reason
or another, it wasn’t real meaningful to them, or maybe they decided it was
later after that they even got saved, maybe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’ve rebaptized a few people because they felt like it would be more
meaningful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We want to be a blessing
where we can.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You say you haven’t changed much over the
thirty years that you’ve been here, and this is one of the arguments that some
of these other churches make, say South Mountain Community Church, the reason
they call themselves more contemporary, they say, “Look at some of the more
traditional churches, all there congregation are old.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In ten years they’re going to be gone because
they’re all going to die.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re not
attracting young people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why we
have the rock and roll band the neon cross.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We understand all that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We understand that as far as the world, we’re
set apart from it in practice as well as belief.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we don’t have anything here to attract
people other than the Word of God itself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>People aren’t going to come here just to sing hymns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The people that come here love the Word of
God and what they can get here that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They appreciate it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have
nothing to . . .We’re not interested in attracting people through entertainment
or the circus or whatever you want to call it that a lot of churches seem to be
doing to get people to come.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Word of
God is, the Bible teaches us that the Gospel itself is foolish to those who
don’t know Christ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It says that
definitely to the Corinthians, which wasn’t far from Athens which was the
center of culture in the ancient world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It basically says that the unsaved mind cannot understand the things of
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The whole purpose of church, then,
is primarily for believers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of
these churches probably wouldn’t agree with that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why they do what they can to get
people to come.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re not interested in
advertising in the sense of selling ourselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re not interested in that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If
we can get people to commit to Christ out and about where we live and work then
they’ll come in and they’ll be able to find the spiritual sustenance to grow
and be fruitful and the whole bit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re
not trying to attract unsaved people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If
they come in on their own, even like yourself, that’s great.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God bless you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it’s not like we’re reaching out and
trying to program our whole church to attract them because that’s not even
Biblical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you’re not, and I’m ignorant,
evangelical?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or are you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s a broad term.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Evangelical, to me, is a movement that
emphasizes the unity of all Christian churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Whereas fundamental, that’s what we would be, believe that while the
Bible teaches not to even associate with those who digress from God’s word.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve been called separatists, we’ve been
called . . .Because we’re not involved with traditional other churches and a
lot of cooperation, different ways of cooperating with each other, the
fundamental churches in general have been picked apart because of that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Evangelical Church is so broad that
they’ll say, “We don’t care if you don’t believe the Bible.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where fundamentalists would say, “If you
don’t believe the Bible as true in what it says, very, very definitely what it
says, then you’re wrong.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where the
Evangelical Church would say, “We’ll agree to disagree.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s a poor way of saying it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Again, evangelical is such a broad word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It seems that evangelical connotes the idea
of actively going out and recruiting new members.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not recruiting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s the rub, because the word
“evangelize” means to witness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are
told, and we do that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it’s become a
catch term.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Evangelical, in the last 50
years. . .Another word has come up called neo-evangelical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s based on the church fitting in more with
the culture in various ways, and fundamentalist is known as more of a strictly
Bible, whereas the evangelicals are more culture related and culturally
concerned, maybe, then, what fundamentalists would traditionally be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not something I think a lot about every
day, so it’s hard to even define it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As far as evangelizing, that’s about good
Bible word, and it speaks of witnessing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re not recruiting for the sake of getting people to come, we’re
interested in souls, like deep inside you, your soul.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We want people like you to be saved so you
can eternal life and go to heaven.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
believe that through Christ is the only way to go to heaven.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not a church or belief or a doctrine or
anything else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s strictly a saved or,
as you said, born again relationship with Christ and that’s it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We will, by any means, look for opportunities
to share that with people, that they need to know Christ.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Baptist Church doesn’t have a missionary
program like the LDS Church, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I talked to you about that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s
just not centered around one church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
other words, this agency, like Baptist Mid-Missions that I was speaking of that
is headquartered in Cleveland, and churches from all over the country and
Canada and other places have missionaries that are associated with that
agency.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When they gain money, like I
said, they get churches to support them, it all goes to the agency, and they
funnel it to every missionary every month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They’re all over the world being missionaries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are told to be missionaries at home as
well, right where we are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We consider
all of us to be missionaries, per se.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>These missionaries I’m talking about are lifetime missionaries, they
don’t just go out for two years like is popular here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So it’s a different idea than the LDS
Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Different process.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here, young people that for a couple years. .
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s very much an expectation, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It is in their church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most churches are training their kids to be
missionary minded, to be evangelizing minded.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In other words, being a witness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I can remember when I was just a little guy, I played a 45 rpm record of
George Beverley Shea singing “The Old Rugged Cross,” my best friend who
happened to be Catholic, he was appalled.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Didn’t like it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought, “How
can it be possible that anybody,” at age 8 when I thought this, “how anybody
couldn’t like that song.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was my
first instance in sharing my faith.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s what you mean by witnessing?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Sharing your faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sharing what
the Word of God says about being saved and going to heaven.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our desire is, God’s desire, too, is that all
of us get saved. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His desire is for all
of us to have a relationship with Him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we are missionary minded.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just that with our budget we have a hard
time affording to send, you know, to help somebody somewhere else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we try to do what we can locally.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How is it been?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have a unique experience running a
Baptist Church in Southern Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A place
that, especially, 30 years ago was even more. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not as many other churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Have you run into any struggles with that,
in a predominately LDS culture?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Not really.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You had enough people when you got here to
start the church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’ve seen miracles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We borrowed
a lot of money to build the building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Not compared to today, but then it was a lot of money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We saw that paid off with a big miracle
offering over ten years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
determined we didn’t want to be in debt anymore.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We felt it was a vow to do so and we had a onetime
offering who gave plenty of money to pay off the debt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just about everything we have in the building
has been donated, like the pulpit, the communion table, piano, originally our
lawn out front which gone to pot this year, all that grass came from across the
street for free.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Stuff like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve seen God working a lot of things out
for us along the way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Even the pews have
were free a couple years ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">When you
see all that stuff it encourages you to keep going and do what you can.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re no different than anybody else in that
we’re all people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re all human and we
all go through things and struggles and good times and bad times and in between
times.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The only difference is that those
of us that know the Lord are encouraged and comforted by Him in ways that other
people probably wouldn’t understand. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">But in the
same way, like I said, we’re all in the same boat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s been a lot of talk lately about, I
don’t know if you’ve heard much about the blood moon prophecies and things like
that in recent culture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s been
books written about the blood moon that’s coming up in September and every time
that comes up, about every certain number of years, there’s some big event that
happens, usually concerning Israel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There are books written that maybe this is beginning of the
Revelation/Apocalypse and all that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Different things with the Mayan calendar, Omega Code, various things
like that that have come out over the years have all been flash in the
pans.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They come and go and then they’re
forgotten.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I imagine this current
phenomena will be, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">On the
other hand, if it did happen, it wouldn’t surprise me, cuz we’ve seen a lot of
Biblical prophecy coming true in my lifetime that were spoken of by Jesus a
long time ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of it is coming to
pass in my lifetime.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a pretty
exciting time to live in that sense.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
only question is, How long will it keep going?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what nobody knows.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And God’s time might be different than our
time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It definitely is different.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Even though we see signs of the times in
certain things, we still don’t know how long this could seemingly drag on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It could last for a long time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most generations see certain signs, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Even in the 1<sup>st</sup> Century writers of some of the New Testament
Epistles spoke of themselves being in the, quote/unquote, last days.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think the last days started when Jesus went
back to heaven, myself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think there is
scriptural evidence for that in the New Testament.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As we’ve gone on we’ve seen things like
Israel becoming a nation in 1948, it was huge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s a Biblical prophecy come to pass.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The fact that they’re still here, they’ve had successful wars in the
last fifty/sixty years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God’s hand seems
to be upon them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All that is Biblical,
Old Testament prophecy coming to pass.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It makes a lot of people believe that maybe the current events are
significant in that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve always,
not, been skeptical but just skeptical of what people say and some of what they
believe and why believe it but, like I said, nothing would surprise me if
Rapture occurred tomorrow, a lot of us wouldn’t be here anymore, we’d be in
heaven.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I liked your Bible Study talk the other
night, the people in the Old Testament.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s faith.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That is so amazing, what they accomplished
with so little.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The New Testament speaks
of the Law of Moses which they operated under religiously, as just a shadow of
reality.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Literally.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And yet they still accomplished what they
did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like I said the other night it
makes me wonder why we, which have so much more through Christ as outlined in
the New Testament, why we aren’t doing even more so than they did.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Makes us a little lazy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think that’s an attitude that isn’t maybe a
conscious one a lot of times, but it’s imbedded.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“I’m safe, I’m going to heaven.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s been a lot of criticism of people that
believe we’re saved by faith, not by works, because it means you can pretty
much say, “Hey, I’m saved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can do
whatever I want.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which is directly
against the Word of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nobody that’s
saved would believe that at all.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we
do have a lot of freedom to work out our salvation in the sense of practicing
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have a lot of freedom.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t have a Prophet or a Pope or a
President or anybody else telling us “This is what you have to believe and how
you live” and all that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We go strictly,
like I said, by the Bible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s between you and god.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PR:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Which is anti-denominationalism, I suppose.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how we interpret the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s been a great experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In recent years, as I’ve gotten a little bit
older, my experience in my faith has been so much more rich because of the fact
that I’ve, in several different ways, it’s even kind of hard for me to talk
about it, I’ve grown so much closer to the Lord.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s been amazing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Several years ago, for an example, seven or
eight years ago, I wish I would’ve kept track being an amateur historian I’m
almost ashamed that I can’t nail it down, I began to sense that my prayers were
going nowhere.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In that time. . .We have
one Deacon, he was the young man that was up front on Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We pray every Saturday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Seven or eight years ago I was sensing that
my prayers were just a bunch of words, not a whole lot.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wondered sometimes if they went any higher
than the sound of my voice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I began
to study a little bit more about prayer and the Bible is just full of
information all the way through about that subject.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I began to actually ask God to give me the
words to pray so that I wouldn’t, in my way of thinking, waste words.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That I would feel like I was actually praying
what God wanted me to pray, instead of a rote saying words and things like that
which are totally meaningless, or repeating words or phrases all the time that
we have a tendency to do sometimes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
didn’t want to be that way, I didn’t want to pray that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God opened up my eyes, so to speak, to be
able to learn some things about prayer that made it a whole lot meaningful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not long after that, just as a matter of
studying the Bible mostly for my messages here, I can’t really explain it in so
many words but it seems like the Bible itself became more real, more of a life
changer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not like it hadn’t
affected my life before, but in a fresh way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Revival is a word we use sometimes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m saying it was more than that, it was more of a . . .What happened
practically speaking is that different words, sometimes a verse but sometimes
even words would be like neon signs on the pages that seemed to come out of the
page and hit me between the eyes, became very real and meaningful in ways that
I never experienced before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This last May we went to Illinois.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We went to a mission conference that my wife
and I actually joined up with at that time, not the Church, but my wife and
I.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s called CUME Baptist Ministries
and it’s a committee on missionary evangelism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s only like 20 missionaries in the group.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s out of Pontiac, Illinois.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of them are evangelists where they do travel
around the churches like Billy Graham kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But local churches, not stadiums.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’d share the Gospel and, you know, people
would grow in the Lord and they’d get saved, and things like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of them are that, but they recently
changed gears and they have regular pastors like myself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We wanted to do that because we have a couple
churches that support us financially, back in Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It gives us a little bit of an agency who’s
an authority over us financially, who we feel more accountable to now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This just happened in May.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>While we were there, they had this
conference for 3 days, Sunday to Wednesday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Every night and during the day they had one of the missionary speakers
do a sermon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had a regular church
service every night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Through that God
just illuminated my life, made my faith so much more real than even before,
like I was saying, a few years before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’ve just not been the same ever since.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My study habits have changed, I haven’t picked up a Civil War book in 3
months, which for me is the fifth grade the last time I did that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not like I don’t care for it or like it,
it’s just . . .I’ve just been more engrossed in the Bible, to be honest.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m not trying sound corny or weird, I’m just
telling you it’s been a real experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s been so much better for me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’ve been told that my messages reflect that, before I went compared to
after.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know for sure, but I’m
just kind of praising the Lord right now, for lack of a better way to say it.<span style="color: red;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-41491888942439939072022-05-13T14:14:00.002-06:002022-05-13T14:21:44.792-06:00Interview with Rabbi Helene, Beit Chaverim<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Rabbi Helene<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Beit Chavarim<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">St. George, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place at
Rabbi Helene’s Home Office<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">April 12, 2016<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m here with Rabbi Helene Ainbinder the
Rabbi for the Beit Chavarim of Southern Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Please, Rabbi, let’s start with your biography, as young as you want to
go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Rabbi
Helene:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I was young, I’m from New
York City and Long Beach, Long <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Island
and then, eventually, the Huntington area of Long Island, New York, and
Centerport.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I lived in an Orthodox
family, meaning they’re very traditionalist in Judaism in their
observances.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we moved to Long Beach
I was exposed to a diversity of different Jewish people but we still stayed
within an Orthodox portion of religious observance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So were there lots of Jewish people
where you were at?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A huge amount.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just as there were huge amounts of
Christians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t see Muslim
communities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did you have Jewish neighborhoods?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not where we grew up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We lived within communities that had large
Jewish communities, but not like Burough Park where there is just isolation or,
you could say, Little Italy or China Town.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Where I grew up it wasn’t that kind of a setting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we moved to Long Beach I met
and married my husband.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was a
Conservative Jew, but didn’t practice.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What does that mean?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That means he didn’t keep kosher,
didn’t go to synagogue, didn’t believe in an organized religion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we were married Jewish, traditionally.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, secular.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Secular.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Absolutely secular.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When he decided to retire we moved
to St. George, Utah, only because we looked for a couple of years in the West
where we would like to retire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Altitude
levels, because we were at sea level so I had altitude sickness in Santa Fe,
New Mexico.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>St. George had a city and a
community and there were Jewish people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was retiring so I figured, “That’s that.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Getting to how I became a Rabbi. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, tell me a little bit about your
childhood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You were born into an active
Jewish family.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Very active.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My father was a Kosher butcher and later,
after my grandfather passed away, he worked in the meat industry but not in a
religious setting like he was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had a
brother, also a secular Jew.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is that a term people use?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s a term I’m using for your clarification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Does that mean the same thing as
Conservative?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Secular people are . . .It’s a broad scope.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are Jews that might take part in the
High Holiday services which are Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They might not keep Kosher.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They might never go to shul, or the services,
or a synagogue or a temple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are
the different classifications of our houses of worship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They might just show up once in awhile if
it’s someone’s child becoming a bar mitzvah or a wedding or if, unfortunately,
they lose a parent or a sibling or, heaven forbid, a child.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What I would call “life cycle events” bring
them back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There’s three forms of religion,
sects, in the Jewish community that are dominant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Up until the 1850s all Jews practiced
traditional Judaism and there was no such thing as Conservative, Reformed,
Reconstructionist, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, you know, all the different
things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Germany there was a
reformation, a reform movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
wanted to be part and parcel of the society.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They figured that instead of only praying in Hebrew, “We’re gonna get
rid of that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re gonna pray in German,
they native tongue of the country we live in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That way we’ll be more accepted into the society.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The very Orthodox, meaning traditionalists,
said, “Absolutely not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hebrew is the
only language which we’re using in services.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s a holy language.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We won’t
even speak it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They spoke Yiddish or
German.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You could read Hebrew and study
it, but you weren’t allowed to speak it out loud like a common language like
French or Italian.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Conservative movement said,
they’re forming their theisms within Judaism, they felt, “Maybe we’ll do a
little German,” or whatever the language of that country would be, and
predominantly it would be Hebrew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No
music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Reform movement said, “We
could add music just like the Christians and we don’t have to keep Kosher.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Conservative says, “No
music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re gonna keep Kosher.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is Conservative the same thing as
Orthodox?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I call certain Conservative movements
“Conservadox” because they lean more towards the Orthodox even though they
don’t have to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They don’t accept women
as part of their minyan, which is a representation of 10 people of the
community; in order to pray, in order to, if someone dies, to have a service
within the mourners home, only men.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Women are not allowed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Conservative
also can swing as far as totally egalitarian, meaning men and women in equal
roles, equal participation, equal everything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Then there’s the one’s in between where they pick and choose how
observant or how not so observant to, what we would consider, the traditional
beliefs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reform Movement throws it all out
the window.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’ll use music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Anything to enhance the service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Instead of Friday night and Saturday morning
until Saturday night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here in Utah they
have one Friday night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Traditional
Judaism or Orthodox and Conservative will not take the Holy Torah, the Five Books
of Moses, out of the Arc.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the Reform
movement felt, if you have people there, and they’re only coming on a Friday
night, then you can take the Torah out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some Reform Movements do have Friday night services and a short Saturday
morning, but it’s mostly all English, very little Hebrew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Each division, or each sect of the religion
has how they want to practice because we have boards, too, that hire rabbis, or
hire cantors that lead services.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
more or less tell you, “This is what our congregation’s like.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is what we want.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we’re like an employee, and yet we do
give spiritual guidelines and try to stick with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">halakhah</i> Jewish law rather than <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">minhah</i>
which is customs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So there are these three main
divisions:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Orthodox, Conservative,
Reform.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There is also a Reconstructionist,
which I think, but don’t quote me, they’ll keep kosher and they’ll adhere to
certain aspects of the traditions but they’re Reformed in other ways of their
practices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s a matter of where you
live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now I’m going to take you more or
less into the modern era because we have people like Madonna, who wants to
study and be a kabbalist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s part
mysticism, part philosophy within the Jewish faith.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Madonna the singer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Madonna the singer is who I’m talking
about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We even had Sammy Davis, Jr. who
converted to Judaism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have a lot of
celebrities who are Jewish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m taking
her because she wanted to reach her inner soul or spirit or whatever and she
felt that the Jewish mysticism of kabbalah will help her attain whatever her
philosophies were.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have all these little new things
that are coming up within our religion; makes it more flexible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was told last week, the Orthodox community
ordain a woman Rabbi.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s unheard of!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That means, just so you know my background,
because I was Orthodox, I was the first woman in my family to go to
college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Up until 18, regular public
school. . .Maybe there were other Jewish people that I know of that did go to
college, but in my family, my father’s father, my mother’s father and mother,
were secular-type Jews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Non-practicing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Didn’t keep
kosher.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was like the two
extremes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In our house we were kosher.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Your family was Orthodox?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In their traditional. . <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The men in your family went to
college, but not the women.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But none of the women.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I broke a barrier.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did that concern anybody?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It concerned my father’s father.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Aren’t you gonna get married?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Aren’t you gonna have children?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I said, “Eventually.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My cousins, who the oldest one
didn’t go to college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the others,
one’s a lawyer, one’s a psychologist, one’s a teacher, I think.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The rest are all men.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re professionals or businesspeople.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you family went to Synagogue
regularly?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Weekly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Oh, yes!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Friday/Saturday. . .From
Friday night to Saturday it was Synagogue and then the Sabbath.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we moved to Long Beach it wasn’t so
rigid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were able to play with our
friends after services.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But women sat on
the other side of a wall or barrier called a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">mechitza</i>, a separation of men and women.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Could you see each other?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Unless I stood up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wasn’t
allowed in that section.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of the
Synagogues that were Orthodox, the women would be up a level, and you could
look down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our voices would be too alluring
and they shouldn’t be heard because the men have to really devote their
attention to praying to God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And the women are just there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, we pray quietly and privately.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I imagine, with these divisions, there
is quite a bit of discussion within the Jewish community about these things,
like the role of women.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Within each seminary, women have been
striving over the last 40 years to get our voices heard, to be full
participants within the religion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I wasn’t brought up that way; to
learn Hebrew, to learn about the real studies of the Jewish faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew how to light candles and do blessings
over the wine and the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">halal</i> and
everything like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But not to read
Hebrew, not to worship in Hebrew.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The other thing is that. . .I’m like
a unique person because when we moved, we had children, my son blew out, he was
about 5 or 6, he blew out my <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">hanukiah</i>
which is the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Hanukkah menorah</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wasn’t affiliated with a synagogue back
then.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I called up my father.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “What do I do?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do I light the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">menorah</i> again?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He says, “Do you light your <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Shabbats</i> candles every week?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Well, you know, not
really.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He says, “How do you expect him to
understand who he is as a Jew if once a year you go to synagogue on Rosh
Hashanah or Yom Kippur, and now there’s a holiday of Hanukkah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s torn apart because there’s the Christian
holiday of Christmas and he sees all the lights and his friends who aren’t
Jewish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If he doesn’t have a good
foundation,” I guess my father was trying to say, “or knew his Jewish identity
what would happen?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then I joined a synagogue, an
equalitarian one at the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t
know men could sit next to women.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where is this?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Long Island.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Huntington.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What happened was, my father said,
“You belong to a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">shul</i>?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I go, “No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s the Huntington Jewish Center,” it was called.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And he said. . .This one had an
organist who was an older woman and they didn’t want to fire her, so she would
do some of the music on a little organ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Then the old Rabbi left and a new Rabbi came in and said, “No more
music.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a division on that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I became part and parcel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “Gee.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This is interesting.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But, once
again, I didn’t know Hebrew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You could
learn the melodies and you could learn some of the words by rote because they
do it each week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you go each week you
pick it up.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When my son started religious
school, he was learning Hebrew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I told
my husband, “You had a bar mitzvah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You
can do this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I haven’t seen this since I
was 13.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At this point in time, I wanna
say early-80s, the men used to be the teachers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Hebrew schools decided to do it directly from public school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of men can’t leave their jobs before 5
o’clock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a void of
teachers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Women started to fill that
need.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we didn’t have the education.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What kind of teachers are you talking
about?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Religious teachers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Rabbis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Rabbis would primarily do the teaching, or learned laity would teach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But at this point there was such a
shortage that the Jewish community, through UJA and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Koger</i>, these different philanthropic organizations, developed a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">marsha</i> (?) for the conservative movement,
and I think the reform movement, also, but I can’t speak for them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went through the conservative, so I’m
speaking with a conservative point of view.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s free of charge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s called
a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">marsha</i>, it’s a teachers learning
institute.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was at night, two nights a
week – 2 and 2 - for about 4 hours.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My
husband said, “As long as the kids showered, bathed, and in bed, go
ahead.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He didn’t want to deal with the
children at night.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Fine.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He figured it would be a passing phase.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Within 6 months one of the educational
directors or teachers of the school, one of the lecture individuals, she hired
me to teach in her school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “I
really don’t do Hebrew.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>She says, “I’m letting you do an
early grade where they’re just learning the letters.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just like I was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“And all the vowels.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked for her for six years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I moved up in different levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>These are schools outside of. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They’re usually in congregations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Synagogues have schools and they teach their
congregants.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After they go to their secular-type
school they come to religious school?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some are once a week, some are twice a week, some are three days a week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But they aren’t like, say, Catholic
schools where they learn math and. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have, in the Conservative Movement,
a Solomon Schechter kind of set-up where you’re in a setting where you have the
secular and the religious together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
for the secular Jews, which could be Reformed, Conservative, and even Orthodox,
and they don’t go to one of those specific <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Yeshivas</i>
or <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">(hay.ders)?</i> that cater just to
religion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’ll go to the public
schools during the day and then, from let’s say 4 or 4:30 to 6-6:30, they’ll be
in a religious setting and they’ll learn about their religion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not all people participate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So this is that kind of setting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They go to public school and then I would be
teaching in the evening or afternoon, 4:30 until 6:30ish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now what happens is, I was intrigued and I
wanted to learn more.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had an
advanced class.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went for three
years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started with about 20 men and
women.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Out of those 20, 6 of us
graduated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were all women.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of us had teaching jobs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You were teaching while you were
taking the classes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how bad the shortage was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Over the course of time there was no more
shortage, nor more need, and no more funding and the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Marsha</i> closed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I graduated
with, I think it was the second class.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What happened was that I went to Hofstra University, cuz they had a
Judaic Studies department.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In New
York.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Hempstead, New York, on Long Island.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you want to know my schedule:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got up in the morning, got the kids on the
bus, went to Hofstra which was about 45 minutes to an hour away, depending upon
traffic, from where I lived.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Took
various courses.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Came home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Picked up the kids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Either they stayed home or, I had a neighbor
who we did a carpool.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would drive them
to the religious school on my way to my job – I couldn’t work within my
congregation, it was not allowed, for many reasons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She would pick them up and I would come home
and make dinner, do their homework, do my homework.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And the routine would go.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was only about two days a week, during
the week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sunday School, when I taught
on Sunday, my husband took them to and from the religious school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got a bachelors in Judaic Studies and a
minor in Fine Arts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was a fashion
designer and merchandizing buyer in New York City.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I graduated Fashion Institute.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how I met my husband, in the city.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What did he do?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He was a furrier.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met on the Long Island Railroad.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You meet people, you talk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how I met him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When you were young, what kind of
school did you go to?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did you go to
public school?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Public school.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>An integrated school?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My brother went to religious school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His Hebrew school was three days a week plus
he had to be in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">shul</i> Friday and
Saturday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t think they did
Sundays.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you went to the public schools, and
then did you go to religious school.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I did not go.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went one day and told the wrong grandfather
that I went to a religious. . .And he goes, “What does she need it for.?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I didn’t go.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not saying that my mother and father didn’t
want me to experience it, it’s just that it created a riff within the
family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Other girls went.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It depended upon their families.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, from having my bachelors I was
very content teaching and I was happy that I had all this extra knowledge on an
academic level.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then they needed, the
communities of the Jewish people grew in such volume, they needed, the larger
synagogues and temples, needed not one Rabbi but two Rabbis, because there were
so many families.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If they couldn’t
afford a second Rabbi, one would be the head Rabbi and the other would be,
maybe, the Assistant Rabbi that would take care of family needs or family events.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The head Rabbi would do the traditional 24/7,
if you need a clergy, he did everything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What happened was some of these institutions and religious houses of
worship couldn’t afford the salaries of two Rabbis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They instituted what became a Jewish Family
Educator.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s like a Masters within the
religious community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was another
two years of study of Sociology, Psychology, methodology, how to deal with
certain situations within an institution and how, of course, to deal with
people in various situations throughout lifecycle events.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yes, we don’t get paid as much as an
Assistant Rabbi or a Rabbi.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was very
happy doing that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Helping out and doing
that kind of a thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I never was
hired.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were hiring men over
women.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I said, “Oh well.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was teaching in, if you can imagine, three
different schools, part-time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Monday and
Wednesday was one school, Tuesday/Thrursday was another, Wednesday night I
taught art at a regional Hebrew high school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I raised my family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Everything was moving smoothly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Everybody was happy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was also
part and parcel of the Women’s League for the Conservative Movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I moved my way up to being the president of a
region in New York which they called branches back then, but now they’re
regions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I sit on the board of the Torah
Fund, which is the fundraising aspect of the Jewish Theological Seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We make donations and help give scholarships
to students that can’t afford to go to the Seminary, and other things that we
do with the funds.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was very much into
that and I might lecture once or twice for them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you parents from the United
States?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were from the United States.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My father’s family, all but four of them, died in the Holocaust.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reason that I’m alive is that when my great
grandmother, my father’s grandmother died, she died at childbirth of my
grandfather.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When he became 13 he was in
Poland and his new mother said, “Go live with your mother’s family in New
York.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have to understand that my
great great, my grandfather, great grandfather, was a Rabbi, married to a
Rabbi’s daughter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had to have more
than one child so the second grandmother, great grandmother had another 11
children.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Out of those 11, which are
half-brothers and sisters to my grandfather, two made it to, after the
Holocaust, which we found out many years later, to Palestine which is now
Israel, on got off the boat in Cuba, the boat to nowhere that’s called the St.
Louis, the other one wound up in Argentina.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>All the rest of the family perished.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My father studied to be a doctor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He was just shy of. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Your father was born here?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And your mother, too?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Born here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lived here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Both Americans.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Born here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Legal Americans.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact my mother’s mother was born in
America.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So your grandmother was born in
America.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My grandmother was born in
America.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But not my great grandparents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>All in New York?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>All in the New York City area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What happened was that my father couldn’t
afford medical school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He graduated
college with an economics degree, he’s an economist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He wanted to be in the medical field so he
joined the armed forces.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said that he
won the lottery.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He talked very little
about the war years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What happened was
he went into General Bradley’s division as a medic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When the war broke out, General Patton said,
“I want your trained people.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He fought
along side General Patton for 5 years through the war.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was part of their medical team and he
liberated 5 concentration camps.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
last one, he found out, all his family were killed there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He never went back to practicing
medicine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s sad.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Stephen Spielberg called him a few
times.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was doing a documentary on the
liberators of the camps.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My step mother,
after my mother passed, she said that his secretary’s or people would call, and
he just wouldn’t talk about the war.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Towards the end of his demise, I have little snippets of
information.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the old war map of
the 9<sup>th</sup> Division [she is showing me a map that she has framed], 1<sup>st</sup>
Infantry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The photographer died and
that’s how my father got the map.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This
is the Octofoil.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are all the
battles and the movements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s the original?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is original.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What I have to do is contact
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you go through something
like that, he probably had what we call today, Post-Traumatic Stress
Syndrome.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That probably made me part of
who I was, not knowing until later in life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But now, years gone by, I’m a Rabbi 7 years now, 6 or 7 years, what
happened was one of my friends, her son was going to get married to a
non-Jew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s said, “You can marry
them.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “I’m not a Rabbi.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And most Rabbis won’t do an interfaith
marriage.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Yes, you can do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Go finish your degrees.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “I really don’t want to do
all this.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With the invention of
computers I could do a lot online.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you’re not in New York, anymore?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was still in New York.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m only here about 3 ½ years full time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But you were in Mexico for awhile?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s a second home.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Alright, I’ll look into it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can’t go to the Jewish Theological
Seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They require a year living in
Israel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can’t uproot and live in
Israel for a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Same with the Reform
Movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But there’s this online
seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I gave them all my
information.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked 8 years, like I
said, with the Israelis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
grandfathered it in.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You worked 8 years with the Israelis?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was on a grant where I went up and back to Israel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked on educational programming.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>While you were doing your teaching?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They needed a team from different synagogues and different sects of the
Jewish community, and my Rabbi said, “Did you look at the papers?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“What papers on my desk?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He goes, “It’s a trip to Israel.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Whoa whoa whoa!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What does it entail?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It entailed once a week meetings learning
about Israel:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>the culture, what we
needed to do, how to form relations, how to build better understanding within
the congregations (Israelis and Americans), and how to develop programs within
our educational system to bring everybody together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wrote a lot of educational
programming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was written up in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Haaretz</i> and in the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Jerusalem Post</i>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So this is how I was able to fulfill
working with the Israelis and doing all this kind of study rather than living
and being part of the culture in Israel for a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The other parts are writing, I don’t have to
tell you, to go through a ordination.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Doing it via the computer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That
took awhile.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was confirmed or ordained
by a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Betin</i> or Rabbis of a seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They confirmed my ordinations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When you say you don’t have to tell me
about the writings, what do you mean?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You have to write thesises and reports
and school work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are other things
that you have to do as a Rabbi.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have
to follow another Rabbi around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Certain
things that it entails for a clergy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So it was an online program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Does it have a name?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Esoteric Theological Seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Esoteric meaning “all encompassing.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They’ll have different religions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So it wasn’t just a Jewish place?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No no no.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was all different religions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Her son didn’t want me to marry him because
he wanted me just to be a guest at the wedding.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So I said, “Okay,” and somebody else married them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I told one synagogue I was
working with and they refused to recognize my <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">smicha</i>, my ordination.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
other synagogue I was working in wished me a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">mozel tov</i>, good luck, great, and I was their educational director.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Why wouldn’t one recognize it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because I didn’t go to what they call
the JTS.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Privately, that other synagogue,
their Rabbi didn’t graduate the JTS.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
graduated from the Reconstruction Movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Yet he was the Rabbi for a Conservative synagogue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So my husband says, “Just leave the
synagogue.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Absolutely not.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Also, the
cantor, who was Orthodox in his ways, a very Orthodox man, he said, “I didn’t
speak Hebrew well enough.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I said, “I’ve been leading your
family services for six years or seven years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think I speak Hebrew well enough.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I’ve been teaching your young grade all the way up to seventh
graders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not only can they read the
Hebrew, they know the words and they understand the Hebrew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You teach them the melodies.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “Fine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You want me to study.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You want me to do this, but I also corrected
Chancellor Ismar Schorsch, who was the chancellor of the Jewish Theological
Seminary not once, but twice, because of little discussions and lectures he was
doing and Vice Chancellor Labo (?), or his secretary, printed the wrong
tractate.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I said, “Before you write
this in the journal for the Conservative Movement, I could be wrong, but. .
.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I wasn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By the way, Chancellor Schorsch got his
ordinations and doctorates in Semitic Languages.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was so engrained at the time and
studying so hard.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like my husband says,
“You were probably the only one that read the Hebrew of the tractate or
whatever papers you had while everybody else was just listening or leaving the
lecture.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I said, “Fine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You want this cantor, you want me to do this”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And my husband says, “Why are you doing
this?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You don’t need the job.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just leave.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I said, “No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because if there’s another woman who gets
credentials and it’s not to their liking, then she’ll have to go through what
I’m going through.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I don’t think that’s
fair for another woman to do that.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
stayed the whole year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unfortunately
they lost the grants in Israel, they lost the money, they lost the
connections.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I still maintained it
at the other place where I was the educational director.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Now I still have to deal with this small
Jewish community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I was in Israel they
found out who I was and what this cantor did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Eventually the whole grant system went to another area in the United
States where the Israelis were working with another group of people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which is fine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I felt that my teachings and program
could’ve gone further.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Better relations
and connections with the children who are now in their early-30s would’ve made
a big impact in both communities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M: <span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Fast forward to today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did you just decide to retire to St.
George?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did you research it at all?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My husband and I are golfers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
wanted a community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted a city.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted a Jewish community where I at least
could pray with fellow Jews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I Googled
(God bless Google) “Jewish Community of St. George, Utah.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Beit Chaverim came up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I met with one or two of the people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “I’m not a pulpit Rabbi, I’m a
educational Rabbi.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I ran a school.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They said, “You’re the only Rabbi in
town.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “I’ll advise you.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At this point you’ve already moved here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was still going up and back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When they finally approached me at that time.
. .I’m here full-time, but I’m still going to go back to New York.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought we were gonna do six and six.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Six months here, six months, or four or five
months when it’s hot, back to the east coast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I needed eye surgery.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that
first year I didn’t want commitments and I still wanted to get acclimated to
the society that I’m dwelling in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said
to this nice lady, “Okay.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>She says, “Would you be interested in
being part of the Interfaith Council?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Sure.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Oh, good.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The meeting is this Friday.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
didn’t even unpack my boxes and I became part of the Interfaith Council.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got to meet all the different various
clergy and the different religions that are in the community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After my surgery and came back, my husband
said, “We’re not going back to Long Island.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It costs, number 1, a fortune.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re gonna stay here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re gonna
golf.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He started to play Bridge, that’s
where he is now, more than golf.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I golf
and he’s a Bridge player.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said to their lay leader, who was moving
back to Florida, she said, “Good!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re
here full-time.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She and her husband
moved back to Florida.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Alright.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll be your Rabbi.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a matter of, when I first came to
their congregation they would do one line in Hebrew and I was continuing in the
Hebrew, and they would go, “No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We do
the rest in English.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was like, “Oh, okay.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I realized it’s a Reformed congregation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When they asked me, it was a matter of
meeting with their board and saying, “Look, this is what we expect of you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t want you to do so much Hebrew.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then over the last year or so, I added more
Hebrew because we have an Orthodox Jewish man who can’t go up and back to Vegas
anymore and he wants to feel comfortable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We have Conservative Jews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
have Reformed Jews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have Jewish
people who are interfaithed married and want to have their spouses feel
comfortable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“And we want you to do the service in one
hour or less.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What’s a typical. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A typical service on a Friday night could be
an hour, hour and a half.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Outside of
Utah, in most synagogues, temple, whatever, houses of worship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Orthodox is longer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Saturday morning, they could start anywhere
from 9 o’clock and go all the way to 1:00.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some could go from 8 in the morning to 1:30.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And this is every week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Every week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So I said, “If we’re meeting Friday night. . .”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Someone brought a Torah back from Israel and
wanted it used.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The woman who is in
charge, which was Reesa Baum?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can’t..
. .I think Baum was the original Reformed Rabbi who opened the synagogue.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But when she went back to California they
took pieces of how to do the service but had no rhyme or reason or flow to it
to make it meaningful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it was good
for the group, the congregation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
went with them over the service and I said, “I know it goes against my grain to
take the Torah out on a Friday night because I’m used to it being out on
Monday, Thursday, or Saturday morning only.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But when in Rome.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And if you’re the
only synagogue or temple in town, you’re Reformed, the Reformed movement says
you can have it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have your people
and you want them to be closer to the Torah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And it’s permitted.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So now I’m
Reformed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now I’m reformed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said to them, “If I take the Torah out there’s
blessings you have to do before, blessings after, and it’s in Hebrew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I have to wear a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">tallis</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of them were a
little against it because I was becoming too religious.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “It’ll be fine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll do it as I’d do a family service, like I
do on a Saturday morning way back in the day in New York.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On a Saturday morning, there’s three parts of
the morning service:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Shachar</i>, which are the morning blessings
and prayers; then you have the Torah service, with the what was happening in
the Torah; and the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">haptorah</i>, which is
the Prophets and the writings at that time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>When we couldn’t read the Torah, practiced reading and studying the
Torah because of persecutions through the centuries, we would read the Prophets
and their writings and what happened.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Now we do it together on a Saturday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We finish with an afternoon service because a lot of people don’t want,
Conservative people, don’t want to go up and back for an afternoon, and they
put it all together within 3 ½ hours.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You don’t do that here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
do it all on a Friday night in one hour. You witnessed the rosh chodesh which
is the announcing of a new month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
why I was like, “Wait, don’t go there.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some people are anxious and they think they know, and they have an
outline of our service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I go,
“Nope.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have to announce a new
month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re leaving one month and we’re
coming into Nissan,” which is for the month of Passover.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then there’s other stipulations that go with
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “That’s what you get with a
Rabbi.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m a volunteer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I do not get paid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It seems to be working out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They kind of like me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is my second year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This past September, 2015, I started my
second year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I go from September to
September, not January to December.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
seems to be working.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now I’m a Vice
President of the Interfaith Council.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There was a shortage of a diversity of chaplains and I took courses and
became a chaplain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now I’m the Jewish
Chaplain at the regional hospital.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also,
we invite people from the church that loans us, or lets us pray. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Presbyterian Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH: <span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Presbyterian Church that allows us their educational
buildings to worship in or use in our holidays when we get too many people and
it’s overflow from the small little room, we use their bigger, educational
wing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We invite their members to our
Passover Seder.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Anybody’s welcome to
come to our services, it doesn’t matter if you’re Jewish or not Jewish, it’s
just open to the community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One of their
members said, “You should do ICL.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “I don’t know what ICL is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Let me look into it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And about a year and a half ago, this will be
finishing my second year with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>ICL
is the Institute for Continuing Learners; you have to be 55 and older.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I became their Judaic Studies lecturer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have all this knowledge and what do I do
with it?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt there was a need in the
community and I wrote a book, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">A Novices
Guide through the Jewish Holidays</i>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I need to get a copy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’ll give you one and sign it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I wrote it primarily for the people who
are interfaith married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both my
children, by the way, are interfaith married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My daughter’s raising her children, my two grandsons, Jewish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re going to the after school religious
schools.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where do they live?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They live in Pennsylvania.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s married to an Englishman.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Half English, half American.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His mother is English, his father is . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He’s Christian of some kind?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RH:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He’s Protestant but he believes now in the
Jewish faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was never totally
taking on the faith.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My son married a girl from Holland, the
Netherlands, whose mother’s Dutch, she was born in Holland, became
American.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Her father’s British.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re also Protestants in their
belief.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My son’s Jewish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yeah, she’ll put up the Hanukah Menorah but,
like he says, he’s not eating Matza.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Wharever, Ian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just as long as the little one knows that
there’s two religions.” <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My
daughter-in-law tries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m happy as long
as they’re happy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I wrote the book so that they would have
an understanding of the . . .Why are their holidays not on Easter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had so many phone calls from the community,
religious people of different faiths, “Why wasn’t Passover this Sunday?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “Did you not read my
article?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I write articles for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Spectrum</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Why are the Jewish holidays so late this
year?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because it’s a Leap Year.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In my book I wrote about the calendar
system.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re lunar as opposed to the
secular calendar that’s Gregorian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All
the holidays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I put it so people could
have a guideline, an outline, what they would need for the holidays, what the
holiday’s are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some are in the Torah,
most of them are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we have what are
known as, after the Torah was codified and finished, Hanukah came after.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hanukah was made into a festival
holiday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we have Israel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And before Israel we have the Holocaust.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It became part and parcel of our beliefs and
culture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have holidays, observances,
and memorial for what’s gone on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
in the book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People don’t know why they
eat certain foods at certain times of the year, so I put in the recipes that
pertain to the holidays and why you’re eating them and why you’re doing certain
things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And since I’m an artist I put an
artwork so that if they wanted to make masks or things for Purim or if they
wanted to make a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">halakuh</i> because you
cover your <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">hala</i>, it’s in there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then some background of .. .a
bibliography of books to read if you want further.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s geared more for interfaith,
multigenerational, type of families.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
publisher I used didn’t have a davka which is like a Hebrew printing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “It doesn’t matter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Jewish people probably can’t read
Hebrew,” so I wrote it in transliteration.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I felt it was a need and I think the Jewish community here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hopefully it comes full circle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-73979132662596003112022-05-11T12:29:00.005-06:002022-05-11T12:31:08.739-06:00Interview with Reverend Josie, Center for Spiritual Living<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Reverend
Josie<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Center for Spiritual Living<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">St. George, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place in Josie’s
office at the Center<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">December 17, 2015<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reverend Josie of the Center for
Spiritual Living, St. George, Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Reverend
Josie:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Reverend Josie De Los Santos.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Please tell me your biography and how did
you end up in St. George, Utah, at the Center for Spiritual Living?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was born in San Antonio, Texas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m Mexican-American from a family, a migrant
family I might add, of 6 girls and 2 boys.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My family travelled from San Antonio and worked the fields from San
Antonio all the way to Wisconsin.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I’m the
youngest of that family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I was
starting school, kindergarten, I had heat sores on my hands because I had been
in the cold and then the heat, I had these little blisters on my hands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My first day of school and they sent me home
with a note.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They didn’t say anything to
me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was one of these little children
that walked around with a tablet and pencil.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In fact, I called myself “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Maria
Lapiz,</i>” which is Mary Pencil.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
would talk to the workers on the roof, and I would say, “Ask me my name!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ask me my name!” in Spanish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“My name is <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Maria Lapiz</i>.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was so
anxious to go to school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then to
have that happen was devastating. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
didn’t understand it as a child.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">My mother
said, “It’s okay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Stay home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re traveling to Wisconsin and when we get
to Wisconsin you can go to school there and we’ll see if you like it.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And I was
the youngest, spoiled.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It worked out for
me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Wisconsin is where I went to school,
where I started school and did my elementary, junior high, high school, did my
undergraduate, and then eventually did my Masters in San Diego.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What
part of Wisconsin were you living in?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We moved into Kenosha.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My father died when I was 15.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He went into the hospital when I was three
and he died when I was 15.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mother
moved us to Racine with another family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Another interesting story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
were a family of all boys and we were a family of all girls.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Three weeks later my mother said, “This is
not working.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have to move.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we moved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Like I said, I got all my education in
Wisconsin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did part of my work at UW-M
and part of my work at Alverno College.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I started at Alverno because they had a weekend college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For me. .. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where is that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In Milwaukee.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I lived in Kenosha, Racine, Milwaukee.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I lived in Madison.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked in
Madison.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I lived in Chicago for awhile.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Northwestern University.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When I finished, in 1984, when I finished my
undergraduate in Milwaukee I couldn’t wipe the smile off my face I was so
excited.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was your degree in?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Business Management and Communications, cuz I
had a double major.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “I’m moving out of Wisconsin” cuz
I’d been there all my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t know
any other place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I began to take
vacations to different areas to see where did I want to move to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It turned out to be San Diego.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I grew up in San Diego.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Chula Vista/Bonita.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I know that area very well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My husband is from that area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was raised there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He went to school there whereas I
didn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to school in
Wisconsin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was something we had in common.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was looking for a Masters program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted to do an MBA and I thought, “How am
I going to use that?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started. . .I’ve
always been spiritual.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I come from a
Catholic family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My parents set a very
good example of, “You can’t do anything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You absolutely have to go.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
was mandatory that we went to church on Sunday morning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And the same with taking us to confession on
Saturday evenings, and so forth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I didn’t have my parents and my sisters
had all gotten married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I moved by
myself to San Diego and began working.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Eventually someone at work invited me to go to a Center for Spiritual
Living which is located in Encinitas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s very big.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was one of about
60 practitioners.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What you do is you study.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You take classes, which appealed to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You take a class to learn.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If anybody wanted to tell me something I’d be,
like, “Why don’t you give me something in writing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d like to evaluate it myself and see if
that’s something I would like.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where did you go to college in San Diego?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was Ernest Holmes Institute.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Center for Spiritual Living.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But you were looking to go to a Masters
Program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s not what you were
looking for, or was it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
started to go to the Center in Encinitas and I entered the classes and when I
had done the practitioner work I had to decide whether I wanted to become a
minister and at the time I didn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
did about 10 or 12 years in Encinitas as a practioner.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What you do as a practitioner is you serve
the Center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I taught classes there, I
was President of the Board, I was very active.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How many members does that Center have?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>About 400, 500.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Big.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Between 400-600, I think.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I guess my question was that I thought you
said the reason you moved to San Diego in the first place was to do a Masters?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You moved there because it seemed like a
nice place to go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I had lived too long in Wisonsin.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you still a practicing Catholic at that
point?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Moving to San Diego made me look at it differently.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew that after my parents had died that I
would not follow the Catholic Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was already referring to God as Spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was seeing a bigger picture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
was a feeling that I wanted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew that
a feeling or experience belonged to that God that I was searching for.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I went to the Center there in Encinitas,
I said, “Oh, I’m home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is what I
want to study.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m just a school type person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I like to learn.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t decide to do a Masters until after I
had gotten married, I had met my husband.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That was in . . .I finished in 2012, so I started in about 2009/2008.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And the Masters program is Ernest Holmes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s an accredited program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have to do the work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just like any other university.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s in San Diego?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They have schools, institutes, in different
areas, like Northwest, and then they have one in Southwest, in San Diego, they
have one in Northern California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
have one in Denver, I think.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are
all over the U.S.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s wonderful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I loved it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you were living in San Diego, working.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was working, I was in international business.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Initially, I worked for QUALCOMM when they first went to Mexico with
their cell phones.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was one of the
sales people that would travel that area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I had a friend that did strategic planning, she had her own business.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was my buddy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She moved me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The work that I did was contracts, government contracts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Project management.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So before you found the Center you weren’t
going to any kind of organized religion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>When I first got to San Diego. . .I think I’ve always been a spiritual
person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did look around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I must have gone to 7 Catholic Churches and I
thought, “This is not me, anymore.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
need to find something that speaks to me.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That was the Center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I continued
to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Your friend invited you. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Somebody at work invited me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A
couple that had met each other at work and they were attending this particular
center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was very curious when I
arrived about how different it was from the Catholic Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I asked a lot of questions, “What’s the book
that I read?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How do I get myself
familiar with?” <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The minister was very
good at calling me by my first name, so he had already pointed me out as a
potential leader for the Center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was
already being asked.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first thing
that I did was a chili cook-off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had
never done anything with a microphone and here I was organizing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was his birthday and they were giving him
a gift, so I had to take the microphone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think I was President of the Board at the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think I was President of the Board before I
was a member of the Center, actually.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was being pushed to do all of these things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I’m a very “yes” person, cuz I think that’s Spirit, I think it’s
something pushing you to be more than you think you are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Don’t play little.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would say “yes” and then I’d go, “What am I
doing?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here I am in the middle of this
chili cook-off and I don’t know anything about chili.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Oh, you’ll have people to help you.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was successful and good.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How many times did you attend before you
started volunteering to help them out?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I signed-up for the first Foundations Class,
they have a Foundations Class that speaks to the ten spiritual laws.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What it is, it’s a philosophy, it’s a way of
life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had this written and I thought,
“Maybe. . .”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>[She now reads for a small
page of notes she’s written {you have a copy of these notes in your Documents
notebook}].<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We describe Science of Mind
as a philosophy of life that integrates spiritual truth with science and
philosophy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It teaches you how to live
your life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a foundation class, it’s
a wonderful class.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which is behind me as
well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>[she points to a poster on the
wall].<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is the spiritual mind
treatment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is the symbol for
spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re subconscious.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then the result is what you create.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This describe pretty much the. . .This down
here is the levels of consciousness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It sounds like we’re starting to get into
the basics of what the Center for Spiritual Living is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>From San Diego and the Center I started to grow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t make my decision to go to the school
of ministry until I was here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt
that, “What am I doing here?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I could
look out my window and it was amazing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was beautiful here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And the
reason that I told myself was, “I’m here because I’m supposed to have all of
this quiet,” which I didn’t have in San Diego.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In San Diego, the counseling and even my spirituality was noisy and busy
and full of people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To come here it was
all quiet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Why did you move here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I met my husband. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In San Diego.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
met my husband.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We bought a . . .we
made, like, 5 decisions at one time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
retired.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He retired.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We looked to move.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t move here because this was a
wonderful place, we moved because we wanted to . . . Since I graduated in
1986.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I graduated in ’84, and in ’86 I
moved to San Diego.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Since that, until
2004 was when we moved here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had done
a lot there and it was time to move, to have a new place, a new life, and
everything else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I arrived here
there was nothing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s only the
Mormon Church and I’m going. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What year did you move here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>2004.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So in 2004 I was already helping a lady who had written a book,
accompanied by classes she taught on the book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’d been working with her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d
translated that from English to Spanish.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I went to be a Practitioner in Las Vegas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started to get calls from different people
in the area that wanted to do the classes for that book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That book is here. [she pulls the book from
her shelf]<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Her name is Diane Harmon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a book on abundance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started to work with her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I became a Practitioner at one of the Centers
in Las Vegas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 2008 I started a study
group here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met at the Meadows
Nursing Home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That group was 20
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They kind of grew with me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the steps in becoming an official
Center are to have a study group, especially here where there’s nothing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I had a study group and then I moved into
a teaching chapter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They wanted a
building, they wanted a place where they could meet on Sundays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That became the teaching chapter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was 2008 to about 2010.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 2010 the teaching chapter was about 2 ½
years before we became an official Center.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Again, teaching classes, teaching this
class.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This became a certified class
with the Center.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So my reasons. . .I’ve written my reasons
for how to change my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Teaching.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I want to give it to
others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With all these different steps, it sounds
like there is a bit of a hierarchy or bureaucracy involved with the Centers for
Spiritual Living.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are ministers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we do have a main office.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ernest Holmes is not a guru.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s not somebody who . . .he was a
genius.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was an amazing man who was so
brilliant that he could synthesize everything that he learned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is the late 1800s and early 1900s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He didn’t want a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said, “What am I going to talk about?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They want me to come and talk on Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What am I going to talk about?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Well, they talked about each other and what
they were doing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of the early folks,
like Mary Curtis Hopkins, Mary Baker Eddy who was Christian Science, and the
other New Thought group here is Unity, the Fillmores.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Myrtle Fillmore and her husband.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were talking to each other.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were trying to figure out, is it true
that you can change your thinking, change your life?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How can we make that?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People were coming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Los Angeles, that was the first Center, 3
or 400 people would gather in different places, and he said, “I don’t want this
to be a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is just a
teaching.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are things that I’ve
gathered.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He could pick up things so
easy that he could go teach it to somebody, teaching something new, he could
synthesize it and put it into perspective with everything else that was
happening.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We just say he wrote books and . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He wrote <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Science
of Mind</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you have a copy?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>[she goes to her bookshelf and grabs a copy]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It has its own shelf.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We get these and then we sell them to the
students that take their foundations class.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They’re bought used and we charge, like, $10 for them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He was such a genius that his ideas are
incredible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This was 1930-something?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Early-1900s, right.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So there was a community of people in the
late-19<sup>th</sup> and early-20<sup>th</sup> centuries who were, what,
disgruntled with Christianity?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ernest Holmes was born in Maine into a family
of 7 or 9 boys.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was just
curious.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like you, “I want to
read.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And like me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I want to know this, I want to know what is
it?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What do I believe?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that’s what we do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I speak up there it’s not, I’m not
telling them, “Follow this or follow whatever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But here’s what I’ve learned and here’s what’s for me and what can work
for you if you want to change your life.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the first three chapters of that book
are the basics, three or four chapters.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What is it?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How is it used?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is what we teach starting in January
which, you know, now it’s gotten basic for me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s like, I’d like to teach something and grow myself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And then you’re pretty much independent
when you have a Center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re not
obligated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For example, when I first
started here in St. George, I knew that these people come from the Mormon
Church and that’s the teaching that they know and I don’t want to judge that in
any way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just want to share what I
know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I still believe that because I’m
new to this area that I should go to them not to get to know this philosophy or
this teaching but that they should get to know me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I’m doing their activities so they can get
to know me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because they’re the majority
and it’s okay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what I believe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For me to move into the community it would
have to be that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what I
think.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you went the Ernest Holmes. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Institute.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s a 3 to 5 year program, accredited.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you come out with what?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A Masters degree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This one [pointing to a diploma on the wall],
“School of Consciousness Studies, In recognition of the successful completion
of the requisite course of study as accredited by the Distance Education and
Training Council hereby confers upon the degree of Masters of Consciousness
Studies with all the honors, rights, and privileges thereto.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And this one [pointing to another] is
provisional because I will be ordained in February.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I remember you speaking about that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you have to take more classes to become
ordained?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You have to be a Senior Minister at a Center, you know, you’re in
charge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You go before a panel or Senior
Ministers who have been in the movement forever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They decide if you’re ready.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where will this happen?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This will happen at the convention in
February in Salt Lake.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is it always in Salt Lake City or does it
move around?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No, it’s all over the country.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is it a pretty big convention?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>All the ministers attend, all the practitioners attend.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s hundreds of folks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a big deal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s pretty exciting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I love it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Would you call this a religion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Tell me why you said “no.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Okay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I have had somebody in our movement say that we’re modern Christians,
but we say that we’re a philosophy or a way of life, because what we teach, and
I said a philosophy and way of life that integrates spiritual truths with
science and philosophy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
philosophers, you’ve had some of those classes, I’m sure, in some of your
studies, as we have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We study all the
religions to become ministers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
wanted to know the same things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Who am I?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Why am I here?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How do I fit into
the scheme of . . . </i>The metaphysical part of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s who we are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t use the Bible per se to say “This is
what God wrote or preached or believed.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But we use the Bible as a metaphor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>If we say that Jesus was an avatar, we use Him as an example of who we
would like to be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s used that way
when we speak, when I speak on Sundays.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I imagine you use others, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes. But we try to interpret it in a way that
we know it, what we think of it, as metaphors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Like this is the month of light, I’m using the energy to talk the whole
month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is who you are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And you can hear them when they’re speaking
and ask questions or when they attend here that sometimes they don’t know the
very basics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what we try to
repeat and say, “Let’s get you knowing that you’re much bigger as a human
being, who you are and how you can relate this life that you’re living and
change it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because maybe they’re coming
here for whatever reason.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are some things that look like
religion, obviously.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For one thing I
found you, on Saturdays there’s a thing in the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Spectrum</i>, “Religious Services” that has a bunch of different. .
.You must have advertised there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I found
you in the religious section of the paper.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You meet on Sundays, which is a Christian thing to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is there a necessary thing for Sunday?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what our audience wanted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I cater to my audience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What they
want.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They want a place to meet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They want to gather.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And they’re used to Sundays.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And they’re used to Sundays.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But there’s nothing sacred about Sundays?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We say that whenever you gather, like I say
on Sunday mornings, wherever they’re gathered on Sunday mornings it’s to
remember who you are, that you’re recognizing Spirit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We all sit in the chairs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But that could be like a classroom, too, not
necessarily a sermon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It is a classroom, yeah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you consider what you do to be sermons?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t call them sermons, I call them
messages, a message on Sunday morning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Something you take away with you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And if I say I’m not an inspirational speaker, not a motivational
speaker, but inspirational, cuz I bring you, hopefully, something new that you
haven’t heard and that you want, that my audience wants.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I would like to have live music, most of
our Centers have live music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a
gal that wanted to, she’s studying, taking the classes online, cuz we have all
our classes online.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I also had an
Affiliate Minister, she’s over at the hospital creating a program there, I
guess her area is growing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was
here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s a New Thought Minister like
I am.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was supporting her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She has a Focus Ministry, which is. . .She’s
a Minister but the Focus Ministry. . . a Practitioner can have a Focus Ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All you’re doing is developing your own
interest in something and you’re growing it and you have people that are coming
to it or you have some kind of a study group.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the “focus” means you have, what?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A certain area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hers would be nature.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She calls herself “New Thought Nature
Ministries.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She takes people up in the
mountains and does, you know, the nature thing with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were supporting her here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s been here only a couple years, she’s
going, maybe, on her second year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She
had an office here and just recently decided, “I need to focus differently than
your audience here.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’d like to focus
all the ministers throughout the U.S. so that they could come here and do
retreats and whatever she has planned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We also had a young adult ministry which
is called Launching Pad.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Launching Pad
meets, they’re young adults 19 through, I’m not sure, 35 I think, I don’t know
if they go that high, 30 maybe, I don’t know what the limit is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They continue to meet on two Fridays out of
the month.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The person who was in charge of it, the leader, just left to
Berkley.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had an office here as
well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He spoke once a month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They both spoke once a month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It would free me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But now both of them have left.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Elijah, who was in charge of the young
adults went back to Berkley.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s
accepted a paying position, full-time position, to supervise or facilitate the
Launching Pad there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was a
ministerial student.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the young adult ministries are always
called “Launching Pad” if they’re affiliated with the Centers?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s a group of young adults.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
group that meets here continues to meet without that leader.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was introduced to who’s taking that job
over and she’s a minister that’s coming in from Las Vegas to do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’ll be meeting with the young adults here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But you are the Senior Minister?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Administratively, you’re in charge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m the founding minister here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They wouldn’t be housed anywhere. . .They’re asking to be housed
here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m probably the only Center for
Spiritual Living that’s housing the Launching Pad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How do you pay for your space here?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re not paying for it with the donations
you get from members.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
have various groups that come in and meet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We have somebody occupying an office.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re making another office available.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They pay us on a monthly basis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everybody
pays for use of the space when they come in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We have a course in miracles that meets on Monday nights.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We teach classes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re teaching a prosperity class on Tuesday
nights right now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have the drumming
circle that meets once a month; there’s about 25-30 people that come.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They just met last, what’s today?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Last night.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the drumming circle takes donations?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They pay for the space.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I only
charge, like, $20 for the use of the space.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>If they’re collecting, then give what’s collected.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They make a decision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My leadership really is, my board, we have a
board here as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is usually 5
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve had 2 people leave
recently.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t elect President, Vice
President. Treasurer, Secretary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot
of the Centers do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m more structured.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re kind of new.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I haven’t done membership either, cuz
there is something in me that says, “I don’t know how well I want to do
membership.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It just doesn’t feel right
yet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know that eventually it will have
to be a membership of some kind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
upkeep itself calls for people that want to. . .We call it intentional
giving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know that it’s called tithing,
and that’s what everybody is familiar with.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re familiar with tithing and we know the definition of it, except
that we translate it into intentional giving which means that it’s a spiritual
practice that you are that center of giving and receiving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In your own heart, when you give from a place
of joy and love, the divine takes care of you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It comes to you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know it from
experience because I’ve tithed, or I’ve given intentionally for years and years
and years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And my husband has learned it
now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you have a partner you have to
teach a partner.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s learned it now and
he goes, “Oh my gosh!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because this is
who. . .This is what it is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re
spiritual beings having human experiences.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It happens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you don’t
understand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>. .You want to understand it
because you want to live abundantly, you want to be prosperous, you want to
have all the things in life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you do
that, depending on your spiritual growth, how big of a container are you?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Are you putting just this little cup and
saying, “I’m giving intentionally,” or is your container huge and give, and
you’re not afraid to let that law of circulation, let it go.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My husband was a great believer of, “We have
to have savings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have to have. .
.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the mentality of a lot of
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now he says, “I don’t even worry
about it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It just comes.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you let go and let God. . .It’s
surrender and trust.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where do you get your member?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are people that are still attending the
Mormon Church and they’re attending here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>When we have special events we fill this space here of 2600 square
feet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We fill it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are just people that are hearing about
us, that we’re here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They just want to
come when we have special events.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They’re not coming on Sundays.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Like tomorrow night.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We have to charge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a
fundraiser.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we, I, write
proposals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did have a gal that was very
helpful to me in writing proposals but she’s also left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You know, people move.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They grow and they want to change and they
want to do other things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Her and I did
the business plan together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We wrote
proposals together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What do you mean by proposals?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The most recent proposal we had is. . .We
have a Center in Seattle that brings in $2 million a year, so they fund
beginning Centers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They funded us for
one year at $2,000 a month for a full year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That ended in June.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It shouldn’t
be my job, there should be somebody on the board that could help with some of
these things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s difficult to get
somebody from the community that would, cuz I asked my board members, “What can
you contribute to the board?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You need
them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I come from an administrative
background, so I know the different areas that I need to fill, the spots that I
need to fill in what areas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I need to
look at the community and see who would be interested and do they know our
philosophy and how quick can they come on board so that they can learn all
these things?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our accountant was just my
neighbor and she is not charging us at all to do our accounting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s wonderful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now she’s deciding that she might want to
come on the board.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Why?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because of our conversations, not because of
the teaching.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She said, “I might be interested.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re getting older.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s their time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People come to this teaching when it is their
time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You have a few regulars.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Have they been coming for awhile?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How do you think they found you?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re older, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I started the study group.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So some of those people have been with me
since then, 2008.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They follow me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I initially started I would go speak, to
Kanab, Mesquite, to different areas that had groups that maybe were calling
themselves . . . there was a group in Mesquite, we had 60 people coming
together on Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were calling
themselves Mind, Body, and Spirit and they were meeting on Wednesday nights and
they wanted me to go there on Sundays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s before I had a Center myself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There is a need in Mesquite.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
would still help out if I could.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There’s the Centers for Spiritual
Living.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it seems like there’s also
something larger that you’re talking about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You talk about New Thought ministers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You talked about this group in Mesquite. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mind, Body, and Spirit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do they consider themselves a Centers for
Spiritual Living group?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When the movement first started, the New
Thought Movement meaning Ernest Holmes, Mary [sic: Emma] Curtis Hopkins, Mary
Baker Eddy, Unity here in town, there’s a Unity group that meets.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And they have their roots back to that same
time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>New Thought.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>New Thought Movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That means
they’re all familiar with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Science of Mind</i>
and Ernest Holmes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These were all people
who were coming together. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They all knew each other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were all friends.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mary Baker
Eddy was very much, “I want only this to be taught and we’re calling his
Religious Science.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Emma Curtis Hopkins
was a student of Mary Baker Eddy’s but Emma Curtis Hopkins had her own ideas,
added ideas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She said, “I guess I have
to go over here.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Emma Curtis Hopkins
had Ernest Holmes coming to her to learn.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The first Phineas Quimby had thousands of people coming to him to be
cured because of his ideas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like you
coming to me, you would tell me that you’re not feeling well, whatever detail
you wanted to give, and his idea of a prescription, because it’s called a
mental equivalent, he would tell you how you should change your thinking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And he would write it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He would take, like, $2 for each, thousands
of people, and he would say, “If it doesn’t work for you, come back and I’ll
give you your money back.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was one of
the people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also, Emerson influenced
Ernest Holmes a lot.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ralph Waldo?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A
lot.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The New Thought Movement. . .New
Thought because of the timing, not because . . .There’s a lot of old thought in
New Thought.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We go back to the Eastern
philosophies, we teach the Hindu and ritual, all of that stuff is done in Centers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’d be surprised.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Movement, specifically, that came out of
the founder, Ernest Holmes, is called the Science of Mind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But all these other people, because they grew
up, started their own movements at the same time with some of the same, not
exactly the same, but some of the same.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Even Science of Mind kind of split because they didn’t want all of the
book stuff that was coming up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
classes and the . . .Some people didn’t believe that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They believed in a philosophy and the way of
life. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But they didn’t want to be put
into classrooms and that kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The two pieces went like this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They came back together now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That
became international. . . They called themselves International Religious
Science, or something like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
they eventually came back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now one of
them has got this great big Masters program, fully developed, and the other
one, they did everything just studying under Senior Ministers, on-the-job
training kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now this group
has to catch up with this group so that you have the same philosophy with your
teaching style.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So there are a whole bunch of people out
there, like yourself, calling yourselves the New Thought Movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But they’re not all part of the Center.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They’re all Centers for Spiritual Living.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Well, Centers for Spiritual Living is Science
of Mind.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the Christian Scientists. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They wouldn’t call themselves Centers for
Spiritual Living.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But they would call
themselves New Thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because they’re very much tied to the Scriptures
and the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They call themselves
Readers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re actuall biological
sisters and one of them will read a part out of Mary Baker Eddy’s book, and
then the other one will read parts from the Gospel that are similar.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’ve never known the details, I’ve never
attended.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I know that they were part
of the Movement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They predate Ernest Holmes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mary Baker Eddy’s book is, like,
1860-something.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But they were all friends.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He must’ve been kind of old when he wrote
this?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He died in 1960.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just a genius.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s very interesting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I love the teaching.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So tell me, and this is the difficult part
for anyone with a Christian background, your idea of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You say, “God,” and then you always say, “by
many names.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You also never give It a
masculine or feminine, you never say “He” or “She,” you say “It.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Energy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because God is in, as, and
through everyone and everything.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is God a Being?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>God can be Love, Peace, Joy, Divine Intelligence, Source.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s your experience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How do you experience God?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Science and Mind teaches the unity of life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What does that mean?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Unity of life is exactly what I’m teaching in
December.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That energy, that impulse that
happened 14 billion years ago is in, as, and through everyone and
everything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everything has . . .The
cosmos.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what happened,
right?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It contains that impulse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m trying to get to the idea of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is God something to be prayed to?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Does God think or does God think because we
think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The god that’s within you is that place, that
cosmos, that energy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We pray differently
than the Christian Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We pray
affirmatively.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We pray that everything
is already established, that 14 billion years ago, the Big Bang, and that’s
how, up until now, we’re creative beings, that impulse is within us, that
impulse is in our sexuality by the way, very basic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s who we are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re creative beings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When people discover that place that has not
manifested, that place is where they can move in consciousness because the
ground of everything is consciousness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s not just human beings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Everything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you study quantum
physics, which we do in the studies that I did, Amit Goswami, he’s one of the
professors in a few of the classes that I had on quantum physics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every industry right now is finding out that
. . . Medicine is finding out that there is consciousness, that it takes an
observer and a, a giver and a receiver, that we can observe something and
change it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Quantum physics, that’s the
new science.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Discovering consciousness
in everything.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Everything <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">has</i> consciousness?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That there is that ground of being, which is
consciousness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It sounds like a different kind of
consciousness than “I think, therefore I am.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m conscious because I know I’m here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because you’re thinking of it as a human
being.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But if you think of it as
impulse, as a pulse, as energy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nothing
was created without an idea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the
ground of being.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everything has a ground
of being.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We pray that that already
exists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we pray affirmatively we
know that, first of all, we believe, me as a minister or me as a practitioner.
. . Practioners are usually the ones that do the prayer work for the Centers. .
.That It already is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We just invite
It.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a law.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If I think negatively, that’s my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If I think positively, that’s my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Words have power.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whatever you say goes out into this life that
we live and it’s created whether it’s negative or positive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you find any trouble existing in a
culture like Southern Utah that’s dominated by a specific religion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not when I understand it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not when I know that they’re believing in
something separate of themselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
don’t judge it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I invite them to come to
. . .We are an open, loving, inclusive community that supports thinking
creatively and living a deeply spiritual life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We invite them in and I have found that sometimes they can’t bear to be
told they are wonderful and special.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what we tell them, “You’re unique.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have had even men walk away crying, “I
can’t do this.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As opposed to having a god that puts
judgment. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That I need to be punished.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That
was my own search when I found that I had . . . That the god that I was praying
to was within me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What a change that
made in my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was praying to
something that couldn’t experience, I couldn’t find, I couldn’t. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s dualism, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Separation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And your answer to that is unity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Unity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Because we’re all one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We’re all part of the same thing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Like a drop of water in an ocean.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we’re each a drop of water in an ocean.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Umm hmm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s interesting, huh?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Something
to think about.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s like some of the Christian mystics,
like Father Richard Rohr, who’s very popular.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He talks of an earlier Christianity where everything is one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He says, “Non-dualism.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s an awakening, huh?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m talking about the 21<sup>st</sup> Century
when I’m talking about Andrew Cohen.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Very practical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have no
victims in Science of Mind, no victims.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You’re responsible for your own life, your own spirituality.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And you have a responsibility, like I said
last Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now God needs us to change
our ways.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Look at nature now with some
of the things we’ve done.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This coming
Sunday I’m gonna be talking about a greater understanding of that, the idea of
our culture, that we are very me oriented.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And that’s caused a problem in trying to evolve because you’re so deep
into this culture and never been curious.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I’ll be talking about the ego and what that means within us that
keeps us from moving into . . . evolving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s very interesting.<span style="color: red;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-80508064085653119792022-05-10T14:04:00.000-06:002022-05-10T14:04:33.779-06:00Interview with Pastor Tom, South Mountain Community Church<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Pastor Tom<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">South Mountain Community
Church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">St. George, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place in Pastor
Tom’s office at the church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">July 23, 2015<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Tom, South Mountain Community Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Tom, I’d love to know your biography.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can go back pretty far if you want.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How does one become the pastor of a church?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It might go back to your childhood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What kind of childhood did you have, Tom?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Pastor
Tom:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was born in the sixties, ’68.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I went through the whole divorce craze,
the Brady Bunch families of the seventies and eighties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Kind of grew up really disgruntled with
life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I’ve always, from the earliest
childhood I’ve always had a sensitivity to God, to the idea that there was a God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where
did you grow up?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Royal Oak, Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was born in the city of Detroit and raised
primarily in Royal Oak, Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All
throughout my younger years my parents were not very religious but went to
church, my mom did occasionally, my dad did not at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What kind of church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was a Presbyterian church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t remember anything from the
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My brother and I went because we
liked riding the bus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We found the bus
to be an interesting ride.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t
remember hardly anything I was taught in the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They barely exist today because they haven’t
changed with the times.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re too
traditional and they have, like, probably 70 people left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I was there there were several hundred,
when I was a kid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Anyhow, I always had a sensitivity for
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A desire to want to connect with
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Even as a kid I prayed, I talked to
God all the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a natural thing
for me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know that’s not the case for
everybody to the sense it was with me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But I had a very extreme God consciousness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I didn’t know what it meant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I went through life, lots of
difficulties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Parental divorce.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both my parents got remarried.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mom moved to Florida.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I turned 17 and graduated from high
school, I was kind of rebellious and the way I showed it was I wouldn’t study
in high school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some drinking and stuff
but wasn’t really into drugs and things like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wasn’t an overt trouble-making, getting
arrested, rebel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I went through a
rebellious phase.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I joined the military right out of high
school, two weeks after I graduated from Dondero.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had my diploma and I went to the U.S. Navy
bootcamp in Great Lakes, Illinois.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Was this something you wanted to do or you
didn’t have other choices?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I wanted to get out from under my dad’s
authority, and my stepmother.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My
stepmother was a very demeaning woman, henpecker.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She henpecked my dad all the time and I was
very much the red-headed stepchild.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She
had a way of irritating like a woodpecker, constantly at you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think more so her than anything else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I resented my dad because he let my
stepmother do that, he didn’t call her on it unless it got extreme.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just wanted to get away from her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My dad had had some health issues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had a massive heart attack two months
before I went in, he was 43.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He ended up
having a heart transplant a couple years later.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I went into the boot camp, went into
the Navy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the Navy, when I was out on
my own for the first time, I realize that I was actually smart and I could
study, I could ace any test, I had skills.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I rose in rank very quick.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went
from E1 to E5 in three years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When I was in the Navy I would go to
church, kind of like you said you were doing, I would just go to any
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d visit Presbyterian Church,
the Baptist Church, I’d go to the Southern Baptist Church and it scared the
hell out of me with the hellfire brimstone preaching and sometimes I’d get up
and walk out because I’d be so afraid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I always had the sense, in my heart and my
experiences I just knew there was a god.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But there was also something through, you know, the human conscience
where I always had this sense that if something went wrong and I stood before
God, I felt like that’s not going to be a good meeting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had this sense of sinfulness about myself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How did you choose which churches you were
going to?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t remember.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think just driving around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sometimes I would just drive around, I had a
car.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was more after I got my car.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was the last year I was in the Navy, I had
a car and I would drive around and listen to music just to be by myself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where was this?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Charleston, South Carolina.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a church on every corner.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would just go find a church and attend
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d been to the crazy Pentecostal
people speaking in, supposedly, tongues, which is nothing but a human
manufactured thing, if you ask me. . .they way they’re doing it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a biblical tongue.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But when people just start speaking
gibberish, that’s not what’s presented in the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was an actual known language that had to
be learned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a short term
miraculous event for the apostles time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s my opinion anyway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
wasn’t going to any of the charismatic churches, but I went to mostly, I think,
Baptist churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What’s charismatic?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Charismatic is the Pentecostal, the speaking
in tongues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They tend to focus on
emotions and experience versus our method, you’ve been here, we focus heavily
on the mind, connecting the mind and the heart.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So if it’s not called charismatic, what’s it
called?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We don’t have a term for it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I guess we don’t label ourselves but we label
the charismatics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They label us as
non-charismatic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a delineation, the
charismatic churches are not the predominant side of the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of the truths we hold to, they would
hold to everything with the exception of, they would believe that certain
people can still act as prophets and perform miracles and heal people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not that God doesn’t do healing, but when you
see faith healers. . . a lot of them are charlatans, like that Benny Hinn or
whatever his name is, they’re just getting rich.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s all phony, bogus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those faith healers on t.v. have been proven
false by Barbara Walters.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never went
to any types of churches like that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When I was a kid a lady took me to a
church cuz my mom told her that we had had a big fight the night before, I was
in junior high visiting my mom on one weekend in Rochester, Michigan, and this
lady, Pat, well-meaning, she’s really the first person that ever told me about
the Gospel, but she was so crazy that it didn’t ever click with me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll explain what I mean by the Gospel
later.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She shared that with me and then
took me to church on Sunday morning after I’d had a fight with my mom the night
before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was like 13, 12, 13, 14,
probably more like 12, 13.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She drags. .
.takes me to this church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This was
before the Navy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She would just
occasionally take me to a church because I was interested.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted to talk about God even as a
teenager.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You know, when the Gideons are
out in front of the school, those guys handing out Bibles?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I actually read it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve been reading the Bible since I was in
elementary school, not understanding a word it said but interested
none-the-less.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This lady would take me to church and she
took me church, and it was a Pentecostal church, and at the beginning of the
service she told the pastor, she said, “This young man has a demon in him and
he fought with his mother last night.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And these crazy, crazy Pentecostal preachers and deacons forced me to
the ground and started screaming and shouting and commanding the demon to come
out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They performed and exorcism on
me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It scared the crap out of me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was like, “That’s too over the top.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never went to that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When I was in the Navy, that was during
the Iran-Iraq war, 1988.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to the
Persian Gulf.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were called up on emergency
to go to the Persian Gulf.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were
supposed to go to the Mediterranean but things were heating up in the
Gulf.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For a couple years we had been
escorting ships in and out of Kuwait, American flagged tankers going into
Kuwait.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There had already been some
incidents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Iraqi’s had already
launched the Exocet missles and hit a U.S. ship just a couple years prior to
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So there had been some
circumstances that had went on over there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was very much a combat zone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>With things heating up they sent us over there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were supposed to go spend six beautiful
months in the Mediterranean, instead we spent six months in hell in the middle
of the Persian Gulf where it’s 120 degrees and dust completely piles up on the
decks of the ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have to
constantly paint and chip off dust.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s
just terrible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We were a cruiser.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked in the Combat Information
Center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We worked with radars, combat
systems, tracking, detecting, destroying, that’s what we did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We fought the wars from where we were.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The nerve center of the ship.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One night, April 14. . .We sat in a little
box in the middle of the Persian Gulf.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We were in a little half mile by ten mile long box.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s all we did is went back and forth,
back and forth at about five knots.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Back
and forth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Back and forth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were there to provide anti-air warfare
coverage cuz we could shoot aircraft down up to a hundred-plus miles away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were times where, in the middle of the
day, the scouts would report mines.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
had mines, those big old mines just floating by.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’d break loose from wherever they were
laid in the Northern Persian Gulf by either the Iranians or the Iraqis, cuz
they both had mine fields.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had
trained on the way over to blow them up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You can shoot them from a half mile away, between a quarter to a half
mile way they can explode them or sink them with a .50 caliber or other
weapons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They practiced doing that, but
our job was too important as anti-air warfare coverage because they were every
so weeks they would run these what they called Earnest Will, code name Earnest
Will 1, Earnest Will 2, Earnest Will 3.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We didn’t participate in those.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
only participated in one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We just ran
cover.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We went in there to shoot down
Iraqi, well, basically Iranian aircraft.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>From our perspective, and I think history has proven out, we were
actually connected to the Iraqis during that war.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had made our bed with the Iraqis, we
pretty much supported them even though officially we were there considering
both of them belligerents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were there
to protect tankers that would fly and American flag.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>On April 14 the Iranians had at some point
in time over night, they think within a 24 hour period of time. . .our mine
sweepers. . .We had key routes that we never deviate from, we always take the
same routes because the mine sweepers go in and sweep for mines.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They make sure that there is no anchored
mines, not like floating mines.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We used
to joke about the floating mines because, I slept in the bow of the ship, you
just never knew, you couldn’t see them or detect them at night, and we just
never knew when we were gonna hit a mine in the middle of the night and that’d
be it, you’d be dead.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You just live with
that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">There is
constant fear in a combat zone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every
several days we’d have Iraqis firing missiles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Literally their jets flying overhead, the Mirage jets, firing missiles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our lookouts are reporting “missiles
away.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re watching on radar, watching
ships slowly disappear that get sunk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Big tanker ships getting sunk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You got the Iranians attacking ships in the Straits of Hormuz, then
you’ve got the Iraqis attacking ships.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So if the Iraqis think a ship is going to Iran, they sink it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If the Iranians think a ship is going to
Iraq, they sink it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You got all these
hostilities.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Combatant ships all over
the place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re constantly being
harassed by Iranian aircraft, F4s, F14s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You’re in a combat zone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re
getting combat pay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You just live with
that combat stress 24/7.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re hardly
sleeping cuz you’re working constantly, you’re on watch all the time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">April 14,
the mines are laid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nobody knows
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The USS Samuel B. Roberts hit a
mine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s one of our frigates.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We immediately are notified.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We locked our station to go provide coverage
for them, because nobody knows what it means, we just know it hit a mine and
that they’re in a minefield.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were
actually multiple mines they noticed just below the water.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how they found it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The lookout reported a mine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They came to all-stop and they got a
propulsion system that allows them to do that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They came to all-stop and noticed that there’s mines all around them and
they tried to get out of the mine field.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So we show up the next morning and the ship almost sunk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The damage control from my ship flew out
there via helicopter and actually saved the ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They stopped it from sinking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">That was
when Reagan was in office and it wasn’t four days later that we retaliated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But my space was immediately turned into a
top secret space.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They planned the
entire combat engagement on ship, in Combat Information Center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We knew what was happening, we weren’t
allowed to tell anybody that we were going to go into combat operations with
the Iranians in retaliation on April 18.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That morning. . .the reason I bring all
that up is because that’s where my God consciousness and my fear of dying and
not knowing how that meeting with God would go, that’s where it really grated
on me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got up that morning and I had
one of those little Gideon Bibles, I think it was a King James version, I had
one of those.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We knew we were going to
General Quarters at 0800, we knew that we were gonna almost immediately engage
the Iranians in combat within mere minutes, which turned out to be a couple
hours because our captain was gracious and gave the Iranians a chance, cuz we
were gonna shell an oil transfer platform that they used as a military base,
and they had military armaments and soldiers and whatnot on it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He gave them an opportunity to abandon before
he started shelling, and they had order to abandon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had to bring a tugboat out to get as
many people as possible on before we started shelling it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">That
morning I went into the head, the bathroom, and I’m sitting on the stall, and I
had that little Bible, and I’m, “Okay God, I don’t know what to do.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m closing my eyes and flipping through the
pages and pointing my finger.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“If you
have something to say to me, this is the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m really open right now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cuz
we’re going into combat and everybody is scared out of their mind.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I kept doing that and I came up with no
conclusions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just went into that day
super fearful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Things heated up real
fast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got into it with the
Iranians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We blew up that oil transfer
platform.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were shooting from ten
miles out cuz we had a bigger gun.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
our other ships are dodging.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re being
fired at from the platform cuz they were in a little bit closer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had a .76 millimeter gun.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">After we
had destroyed that, we’re heading out, back to our station.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was going to be it for us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the meantime, the Navy is engaging from
one end of the Persian Gulf to the other, the Navy, the Marines. . <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This
is ’88?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is ’88.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Look it up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Operation Praying
Mantis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s the largest naval
engagement to this day since WWII.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s never been a bigger naval engagement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was the first time, some of the first
naval engagement, major navy ships have seen combat since WWII.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Actual exchange of fire. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Combat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some of the units in Vietnam saw combat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But they didn’t have ships being attacked by the Vietnamese, or the
Koreans.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>While we were going back to our station we
picked up radar on an Iranian ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
didn’t have video on it, but we had the radar, the radio transmission from the
radar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We closed on the Iranians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As soon as we picked them up we had a
helicopter, two Apache helicopters with Marines, flying cover for us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They identified it, identified the ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We knew it was a combat ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They started coming right at us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re closing a constant bearing decreasing
range.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On radar it looks like you’re
coming right at each other.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our captain
kept telling them . . . It wasn’t one of the identified ships to necessarily
sink.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were only going after key
ships that day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that changed
everything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Once we engaged that it
changed everything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It became a free-for-all
from one end of the Gulf to the other.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There were a couple other ships, I think the Sabalan. . . Because they
had recently been destroying tankers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So my captain, and he’s literally sitting
15 feet from me, he goes over the open radio and says, “Iranian war ship this
is U.S. navy warship, abandon your course.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They would come back and say, “American warship, this is Iranian
warship, we are excersizing our rights to freedom of navigation,” which is what
we say when people challenge us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were
just echoing our words back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He gave
them about three or four warnings over five minutes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can go. . . there is video footage out
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can hear my captain, he says,
“Iranian warship this is U.S. Navy warship, abandon your ship, I intend to sink
you out.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As soon as he said that our
electronic warfare shack, which is 7 or 8 feet in the other direction from
where the captain’s at, a 90 degree angle to the captain, every alarm in there
starts going off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we’re locked up
with fire control radar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All the bells
and whistles are going off, that’s the same piece of equipment that detected
the radio to begin with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our captain is like, “Keep an eye on those
scopes.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And no sooner than he said
that, OSSN Dunlap said, “I got video separation.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They fired a missile at us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re sitting there sitting ducks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You put your nose into the missile, you
launch chaff, things like that, but the missile is on radar being tracked, it’s
on radar coming at us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re sounding
the collision alarm which they sound.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The officer of the deck is out there, “Brace for shock throughout the
ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is not a drill.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Brace for shock throughout the ship.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everybody is trying to get away from, you
know, grab onto something, bend the knees and get away from anything that’s
gonna bash your face in if it explodes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You’re gonna get thrown violently or the ship is gonna be heaved
upwards.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We’re all waiting for it to hit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Instead of hitting, we get a burst of rf
energy, as they detected later the missile passed, it was a Harpoon Cruise
Missile, one of our missiles sold to them by Jimmy Carter, thank you Jimmy, it
ended up missing us, it missed us by 75 yards.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was within 75 yards of the ship and you heard it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re in the ship and you hear, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">whoosh</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The whole ship shook.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One of our sister ships that wasn’t
engaged, she had already hit that ship with a missile.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we turned, freed our bow, we can’t shoot
a missile off the bow, you can’t shoot off the bow, you have to shoot the sides
of the bow, or a 90 degree, but you can’t shoot right off the bow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The whole ship feels like it’s flipping over
cuz they went right full rudder.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As soon
as they unmasked our batteries we fired an SM1 missile and we hit it and then
the Simpson fired another missile and hit it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The ship was still out there floating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We were going to close it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t mean to cut you off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are fabulous stories.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re going to tie this in, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is where it ties in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By the time the day is over we’re engaged by
aircraft, we shoot an aircraft down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
the week to follow we’re continuously engaged and harassed by the
Iranians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just super fearful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A week’s worth of intense fear.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was expecting to die.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was tremendously afraid when we went
through the Straits of Hormuz.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They get
really narrow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m thinking, “This is
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is where they’re going to hit
us.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have all these Silkworm
batteries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hundreds of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re going to finish us off right
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fortunately they never did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They never tried.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That experience, that intense fear.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>More so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“I know there’s a God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know
that I’m guilty before Him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I almost
died this week.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That event is so etched
into my mind.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What ended up happening . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is like a week long period?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s a several months long intensity because
you’re in a combat zone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But then you go
into combat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It just does things to
you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That fear.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Your body can only absorb fear for so long
until it affects you, everybody’s affected by it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When I got back from the Persian Gulf, when
we got back you’re just thankful to be alive, you almost died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That missile could’ve sunk the ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a powerful 250 pounds of hg.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It would’ve devastated that ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was right in the center of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have that intense fear and I think that
fear kept working on me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I was
looking for answers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I got out of the Navy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I probably struggled with some PTSD for about
a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had a lot of nightmares, I’d
wake up screaming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No flashbacks or
anything like that, just had really bizarre, fearful experiences and
anxieties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Only for about a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got out in ’89, in June of ’89.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Had a rough transition to civilian life,
maybe because of PTSD but I had a rough transition.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had almost a loathsome, “there’s no purpose
in this.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the military everything had
a purpose.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That purpose for me, all that
training, even sweeping decks, everything had purpose.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It all came together on April 18 and we lived
because of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Had we not followed our
purpose, our training, we could’ve died.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you got out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did you move back to Michigan?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I moved back to Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Moved in with my brother in East Detroit, now
Eastpointe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started feeling like,
“There’s got to be a purpose out there.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was looking to date, interested in dating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just couldn’t find the right girl.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I always was attracted to these really
beautiful blondes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They just didn’t want
to have anything to do with me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One girl
told me one day, she said, “It sound to me like the girl you’re looking for is
in church.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then I thought, “Maybe I ought to try to
reconnect with church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe I’ll find
some purpose there.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>On the ship there’s a chaplain, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I never did anything on the ship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We only had a Catholic chaplain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t have a Protestant chaplain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had friends that would talk to me about
going to church and things all the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I just wanted everything to be on my terms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So that’s what ended up happening.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got to the end of myself and on November 4
of 1989 picked a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The company I
worked at, I was a driver, I’d pick up parts, drop off parts, pull parts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did a lot of driving so I was very
familiar, extremely familiar, after a couple of years, with the Detroit
area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a church that always
drew my attention.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was two miles away
from where I worked.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started calling
churches, looking for a place to go to church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Just calling them on the phone, asking them
questions?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Calling them on the phone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of the churches didn’t even have an
answering machine, no one even ever answered the phone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This church, First Baptist Church of Sterling
Heights, Michigan, they at least had a phone answering machine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I listened to the message and I thought, “If
these people are smart enough to at least have an answering machine, maybe they
want people.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t know if I’d be
wanted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I went to that church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For me, I had heard the Gospel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We believe in the Gospel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We believe the Gospel is really simple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are born into this world. . <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When you say “we” what do you mean?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Orthodox Christianity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of
your mainline churches have broken from orthodoxy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Orthodoxy is just another way of saying the
fundamentals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Orthodox, or Christianity,
or Evangelical Christianity is really simple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We born in this world separated from God and there is nothing humanly
possible that we can do to fix it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
cannot will ourself to be accepted by God, we can’t be good enough to be
accepted by God, we can’t obey enough laws – get baptized, go to church – we
can’t. . .It’s a doctrine we call “Total Depravity,” and what it means echoes
back to the Calvin days and earlier.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
Total Depravity is, every single human is totally depraved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It doesn’t mean they are as bad as they could
possibly be, but they are less than the perfect thing that God created us to
be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In every sphere, in every area of
our existence – mind, body, soul, and spirit – we are less than perfect and we
fall short of God’s glory.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we would say Adam was our Federal Head
of the human race and he failed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because
he failed, the fruits of his failure have been meted out to every human to
descent from him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re all born
cursed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But Christ came as the second
Adam, the Bible calls him as the Son of God the second Adam, God of human
flesh, he came and did what Adam failed to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He perfectly obeyed God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not just
the one commandment of “don’t eat the fruit from this tree,” but all of the
commandments.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He satisfied the Father’s
requirements for justice on the cross, when he died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He satisfied righteousness and justice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So when a person puts their trust in Jesus
Christ as the “one who lived the life they can now live and then died the death
they deserved to die to pay for their sins,” that’s faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And by putting your trust in God and making a
commitment to follow Jesus Christ, God eternally forgives you of all your sins,
He basically takes what Jesus paid, you know, He paid the penalty, and God
takes that payment and applies it to your account.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why the last words Jesus spoke on the
cross were the words “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">tetelestai</i>"
which, translated in most of our translations, “it is finished.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said, “It is finished.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He bowed his head and gave up the ghost.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That word, “It is finished,” is <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">tetelestai</i> in the Greek market place in
Jesus’ day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you paid a debt, when
you finished paying a debt at the market place, to the merchant, he would write
the world “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">tetelestai</i>,” which means
“paid in full.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s the debt is paid in full.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what we believe the Gospel is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what distinguishes us from many other
churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t believe you can do
anything to save yourself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have to
rest in what Jesus did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Whosoever shall
call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or by grace.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re saved through faith, not of
yourselves, not of works, it’s the gift of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Lest any man should boast.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what we believe.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I had heard that I don’t know how many
times.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We used to have those little
Gospel tracts on the ship, just a little pamphlet that has all the verses on
how to become a Christian in it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
were right next to the Bibles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would
constantly go down and pull one of those off and read it when I was in the Navy
to try to figure out, “What do I do.?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
really wanted to know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“God, I want to
know what you want me to do.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was
called “God’s Simple Plan of Salvation.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was anything but simple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
tract was very detailed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It always had
“The Sinner’s Prayer” on the back and I’d always pray it, but I didn’t really
know what I believed at that time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
wasn’t willing to really submit to God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I wanted to come to God on my own terms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For me, that day, November 4 of 1989, when
I was traveling to that church, I went to an evening service, I was just
driving, you know, it’s November, it’s dark, darker, I was just talking to
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Praying, cuz I prayed all the time,
read the Bible all the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said,
“You know, God, I’m going to this church, but from here on out you have all of
me.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I really felt like God was telling
me to go to this church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like I was
being pulled in that direction, more pulled, not told.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew that I needed to go there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I went to
that church totally dressed wrong, for a more traditional Baptist church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was wearing a Polo shirt, khakis, no socks,
deck shoes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Deck shoes are coming back
by the way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m happy about that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I miss Deck shoes from the 80s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I went to
that church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sat in the front row.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just felt at home.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don't remember what the Pastor preached,
but I literally was like in the very front row, right in front of the pew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was like, “If this guy has anything from
God, then give it to me.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">That very
day I showed up and this beautiful blonde-haired woman, very petite, that
looked like an angel and sand like an angel, got up and sang a song.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s one of the moments, I have very few
times in my life where I feel like God said something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a lot of debate over god even
prompting people or saying something, but I felt like God just said in that
moment, “That’s going to be your wife.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You’re going to marry that girl.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I was like,
“Where did that come from?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">That’s the
day I mark, that’s the day I became a Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never prayed another “Sinner’s Prayer.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I already believed in Jesus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t quite understand the Gospel and how
we can really truly rest in what Jesus did and not have to try to earn his love
or acceptance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On that day I fell in
love with the church and Christ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
committed my life and my life changed overnight.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to work the next day not quite
understanding everything that had taken place the night before, but I went to
work and I walked in the door, and my boss asked me something and I lied.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did it a million times.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People lie, right?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then I suddenly felt horrified that I
lied.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“C’mon, Tom, you shouldn’t be
telling lies.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Something within me is
talking to me in a non-verbal way, “You can’t lie.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re not doing this lying thing.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I thought, “That’s really weird.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then, an hour later, I swore.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I dropped the f-bomb and again I had this
horrifying sensation come over me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
thought, “Okay, this is getting weird.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Because I always swore and I never cared.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This kept
happening all week long.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On Thursday
I literally thought I was losing my mind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So I called up the Assistant Pastor of that church, cuz he had given me
his number that Sunday night, he came up . . .I mean, like, I was walking out
of that building and I felt like something had happened that never happened to
me before. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt a connection on that
Sunday night.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just prayed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “God, if you are real, if this is
really happening, if you’re real, if you’re really trying to connect with me,
then I can’t have this night end.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
no sooner than I said this prayer, Dave Dersch came up, put his arm around me,
and said, “Hey. . .”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He asked me who I
was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “Tom.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">He said,
“I’m Dave Dersch.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m the Assistant
Pastor here and I work with the youth and the college age students.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You look like you’re a college age student.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I said,
“Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just got out of the Navy.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">He said,
“We’re having a get together tonight and we’d love to have you come.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I saw that as an instant answer to prayer
that made all the difference in the world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then
later that night. . . I just couldn’t keep my eyes off this beautiful blonde
girl.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was just captivated by her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I felt like I can’t even talk to
her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s like an angel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t even deserve to look at her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That night when I was leaving, I prayed
again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m like, “God, please.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’s walking the opposite direction and I’m
like, “Have her say something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can’t
talk to her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Have her say something to
me.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And, literally, like right after I
prayed, from like two or three hundred feet across the parking lot at this
apartment complex where we had all gathered, I hear, “Yoo whoo.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Tom.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Thanks for coming.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I was like, “Wow!”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I began pursuing her, pursuing
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was November of 1989.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got baptized in December.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No sooner than I got baptized I started
sensing that God wanted me to be a pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Immediately.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted to be an
electrical engineer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was taking
classes at the community college.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was
working on a two-year degree that would set me up to go into electrical
engineering at one of the bigger universities; the programs are all joined
together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I wanted to be an electrical
engineer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just, all of a sudden, in
December, I felt like I got a call.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For
me, I call it a call.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some people
disagree with it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s never been a
verbal voice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s almost like a thought
in the back of your head that you’re going to be a pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No matter how hard I fought it or tried to
get around it, it was like a roadblock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I just couldn’t get over the sense that as long as I’m unwilling to do
this I’m not doing what God wants me to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Not that he doesn’t love me or I’m not longer saved, but “this is what
you’re going to do.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I fought
that for nine months and then finally said, “Ok, God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll go.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I changed my major.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I shifted
over to a Bible College, a Christian college.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What
college is that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Midwestern
Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I
started training for the ministry, theological training.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Transferred all my credits from Macomb and
credits I had from the Navy and started my training.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Anita and I, the young woman, our
relationship grew, we got married and then I started school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got married in ’91 and then I started
school at Midwestern in ’91, as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Had my daughter in ’92.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Are
you still married to her?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She passed away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So I had my
daughter in ’92 and then my son was born in ’94, but after my daughter was born
my wife had . . .she had always had like a little peanut-shaped lesion, flat
but as black as this, right, you know, where the sun don’t shine, and after my
daughter was born she noticed that there was a raised bump in the center of
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She went and had it removed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It turned out to be melanoma, they said
“don’t worry about it, we caught it early.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A year and a half later, when she was pregnant with my son it just came
back with a vengeance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had to
deliver my son 6/7 weeks premature.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
ended up in the NICU for 10 days at a hospital in Pontiac, Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then my wife as immediately transferred over,
they took the baby early, they did petosin, it wasn’t c-section.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She went to University of Michigan Medical
Center where they did a radical mole dissection, removed a whole bunch of lymph
nodes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the cancer had spread and she
passed away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was September, she had
surgery in September of ’94 and she passed away in January of ’95.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I ended up
a junior in college with two kids, no wife.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I had to take time off from school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Fortunately my boss gave me all the time in the world I needed off,
paid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He would’ve let me take a whole
year off paid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a really good work
place situation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Eventually
I met Amy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is Amy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She became the mother of my children.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In
Michigan?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>At the same church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My wife was a
school teacher at a Christian elementary school, and Amy was the school teacher
in the high school at the same place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But they were in different areas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They knew each other, but they didn’t, like, interact in the same
department.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started dating, we got
married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I reengaged in school.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At
the same place?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Midwestern?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That time I went to Bob Jones University.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both my wives had graduated from Bob Jones,
and getting married and having that big shadow of the past experiences we felt
it would be best to get a fresh start.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where is Bob Jones located?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Greeneville, South Carolina.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In ’93, I was already training for the
ministry, I was in school for about a year and a half, and we had a Missions
Conference at my church where we just talked about missions work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d do it once a year and missionaries would
come in, wherever they’re going – New Guinea, Brazil, Germany, whatever – they
would talk about their work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d have
different missionaries every single night for a week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every night you’re in church:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
everything but Saturday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’d stay there
until Friday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That year we did an
emphasis on church planting in the United States of America.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was intrigued, I was already a Bible
college student.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought, “Well, this
is interesting.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We’re in Michigan right now?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah, we’re in Michigan, Sterling Heights,
Michigan.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There was a guy who came out and talked
about Utah and Mormonism and making a difference in Utah, reaching Mormons
because obviously it’s a big sticking point with Mormons, but Evangelical
Christians don’t consider Mormons Christians cuz of the differences.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It drives Mormons crazy, “But we even have
the name Jesus Christ in the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How
can you not be Christian when we have the name Jesus Christ?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s reasons why.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We won’t be getting into those deep waters,
but there are reasons why we disagree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we came out here to reach people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At the end of that week, after all these
preachers talking about planting churches in the States and one guy talking
about churches in Utah, I really believed that that’s what I needed to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I needed to go.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I believe God wanted me to come here and
start this church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that’s what we
did.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Wait.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You went from Michigan to South Carolina then to here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then to here, yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Well, we went back to Michigan and then to
here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In ’93, when my wife got sick and then
died, and then I got remarried.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I always
thought about commitment to come out to Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I told God, “I will go to Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
believe that’s what you want me to do.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you hadn’t been here yet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Never been here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And that was ’93.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A long time went by.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I got married and I’m in Bible College I
felt a little beat up by circumstances when you go through something like I
went through.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I used to sit there and
think, “Man, is that really what God wants me to do?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Was it indigestion?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I made a commitment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I want to follow through on my
commitments.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I committed to God in
prayer but it seems like so much water under the bridge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One day, in ’97, one of the chapel services a
guy preached a sermon based on an Old Testament text where Elijah. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At the same church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This was at Bob Jones University.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So 8,000 students in the chapel service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And this guy said, he preached a sermon on an
Old Testament text where the prophet, the students of the prophet’s school, I
believe it was Elijah, were gonna build a new dormitory.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A new dormitory means new students, because
the prophets would have students and they would teach them theology, almost
like a seminary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The larger the facility,
the more people they can house, the more people they can teach, the more of an
impact they can make by sending out preachers into Israel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the guy’s preaching the sermon, and
while they’re getting ready to build they borrow an axe head which is made of
bronze which is extremely costly, and they lose it in the Jordan River, cuz
they’re cutting brush along the side of the Jordan River, they’re cutting trees
down and they lose it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that is a
deal killer because they don’t have the axe head, they don’t have the resource
to pay it back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The preacher is going on
and on and on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said but then Elijah
comes and they’re like, “What do we do?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Help us.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He prays and throws a
stick in the water and it causes the axe head to float.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the axe head floats.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It isn’t an axe head like we think of an axe
head, but similar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They probably beat on
it with something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It wasn’t attached to
wood.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So he said, his application was really
simple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God gives you a vision, a
prophet school, God kills the vision, the loss of the axe head, God resurrects
the vision so that what you accomplish is in the power and strength of the
Lord, according to His will, not according to the strength and will of man.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I just sat there dumbfounded.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t leave for 10-15 minutes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just sat in that seat in an empty
auditorium just thinking, “Was that about going to Utah and planting a
church?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I prayed about it all
week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Later that week, the next week, a
guy came in, talking in the preacher boy class, and he said, “We need preachers
in the Southwestern United States.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Utah
needs preachers.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I’m like, “Okay. You have my
attention.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I called my wife on a pay
phone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I told her the whole quick story,
“1993, never told you this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Missions
conference.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Made a commitment to go
plant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Never told you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of water under the bridge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What would you think about going to Utah and
planting a church?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>She said, “I don’t know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll have to think about it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was the end of the conversation cuz I’m
in seminary now, I had to get to class.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Long story short:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I came home and there’s hundreds of books all
over my house.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She went to the, she took
my two kids, they went to the library and cleaned-out every book on
Southwestern states.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They got them all
out of the retirement section.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And she’s
pouring through, she’s got post-it notes everywhere.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So in no time at all we made a trip to
Utah and we just believed that this is where we need to come.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was 1998.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Somewhere in the middle of the state of Texas
as we were driving back, to avoid the snow, we came in on the northern route
around Christmas time and we went back in January through the Southern route.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You came directly to St. George?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How did you choose St. George?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because we knew someone here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We knew a pastor here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So that’s what happened.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had to raise support so we went back, put
our house up for sale in South Carolina, moved to Michigan, spent a year and a
half, almost two years raising support to come out here, and we arrived here in
1999, did a two-year internship to get our feet wet with ministry styles here
in Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What’s an internship?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Like an adjunct professor. . .not even that.
. . Like a graduate assistant student.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was getting additional training working for a guy for free, cuz we had our
resources coming to us, we had our pay coming through our missions work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we worked with this guy on the other side
of town, the Westside Baptist Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
October of 2001, the first Sunday in October, 2001, we started this church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It slowly took off.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I know there are, like, four campuses of
this church in Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But we started out as Desert Springs Baptist Church, cuz I started what
I knew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the Baptists are really good
theologically, we believe probably all the same things, I never changed my
theological beliefs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we really felt,
like, methodology, I really felt like God wasn’t offended by music that’s
contemporary, whereas they only did hymns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Their music was fifty to one-hundred years old.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we wanted to go a different
direction.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Once we got the church up and
running we broke from the mission board and we went completely independent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We dropped the name “Baptist” because people
actually would not come to this church because of the name Baptist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Ah, your Holy Rollers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hellfire and brimstone.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’ve been here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t use hellfire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t use guilt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t believe in guilting people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s not my job, to guilt people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Was it always in this building?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We started in Sandstone Elementary school, behind Deseret Industries
thrift store.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started in Sandstone in
2001.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were there 2001-2003.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our first service we had 15 people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were some Sundays in the first year
where we had 7, and 5 of them were my family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But we slowly took off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Every
year, you know, we doubled in size.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
was really slow for the first several years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We took over this building, only that portion, not this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just one little 2500 sq. ft. space.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We eventually outgrew that so we expanded
into that space over there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s our
childrens ministry, coffee lobby, nursery, all that, junior high.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we expanded into this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have about 10,000 sq. ft. space total
between the three and the dual floors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How many years before you officially broke
off from the Baptists?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Pt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We broke in 2005.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We dropped the name when we were still
associated with the Baptists, we dropped the name, which irritated some
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were making small changes,
only small changes, but the mission board would be, like, “Hey, we think that’s
going to be offensive to some of the churches that have supported you.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally we just said, “You know, we can’t
sit here and worry about offending everybody that assisted us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re here to reach people.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we orchestrated an exit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “Let’s just call it what it is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re the one’s changing, not you.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we weren’t even doing anything
crazy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think it was November, 2004, we
told them we were gonna end our deal with them at the last day of December.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which we did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We went fully independent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Then we
went through several name changes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
went to “Desert Springs Church,” but I thought the word “Desert” was more of a
negative than a positive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We then
dropped the word “Desert” and we just went to “Spring Church,” which we very
successfully branded over the period of years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re still known to this day as The Springs Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s on the building, which doesn’t
help.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re actually taking it off
tomorrow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re like, “We gotta just
drop that thing.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In 2009,
January 1, we merged with South Mountain Community Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How
did that happen?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were already in
existence up north?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were already in existence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was introduced to them from some people that knew Paul Robie, who’s the pastor
up there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got to be friends.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He gave us resources like crazy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He just believed in what we were doing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He wanted us to be successful with no strings
attached.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They paid for that space.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were paying $2,000 a month to rent that
space.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We couldn’t afford it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The auditorium?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not the auditorium.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The one where our childrens space and the
lobby and all that is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were paying
for that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were giving us
equipment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Anything we needed, they
provided it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would constantly go up
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Paul just has . . .I was
attracted to their style of ministry because we wanted to reach people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t want to be a church that reached
Christians who were already reached.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
wanted to reach people, we wanted to build a church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Obviously when Christians come here we
accept them, but don’t want them. . .we want them to<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>adapt our mission and vision, we don’t want
to adapt their mission and vision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When
people come here we’re very specific about how we go about things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just easier to reach someone that’s
never been part of a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And Paul
was doing that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was reaching LDS
people like crazy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Just our church last year, we baptized 52
people and only a couple of them were not LDS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we merged in 2008.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was sitting in Paul’s living room, cuz I
would go up there all the time, and he said, “You know, Tom, everything you guys
are doing you’ve borrowed from us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
don’t have a spare piece of equipment up here that you haven’t taken down
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s like your DNA is South
Mountain Community Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What would
you think. . .”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He wanted a campus, he
wanted to have more churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s our
vision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how we want to
spread.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whether it’s through starting
campuses or assuming existing churches that are going through difficult
times.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had gone through difficult
times but we were fine, we didn’t need to merge with him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But he said, “What would you think about you
guys becoming a part of our church family.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I was honored by it because of what they were doing up there and
that he thought that we would be a fit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We sort of disbanded and joined with South Mountain Community
Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hard start in Fall 2008 with a
full-on legal merger in January, 2009.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So, since January 1, 2009, we’ve been the St. George Campus of South
Mountain Community Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were your congregants okay with that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They loved it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We immediately . . .We went from around 116
attendance to 220 in, literally, 5 months time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re one of the fastest. . .we’ve had a couple. . .you always have
hiccups in churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People leave.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sometimes they leave en masse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had to fire a guy who wasn’t popular and
he and his wife went and shot their mouth off all around town, made all sorts
of crazy lies, not even true, accusations, especially about my assistant, Jake VandeBrake,
he said things that are just absolutely atrocious and not true.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we had a little bit of an exodus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we grow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re back into a growth phase.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We had to reclaim some people that we lost last year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But this Fall, we’ll be kicking off September
with probably 550-575 people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Over the two services on Sunday?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The two services.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And there are
some double counts in there, but it’s easier to leave the double counts in,
create a new baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People come to both?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We tell them, attend a service and serve a service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got people that attend the first service,
serve in the second, or vice versa.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Serve meaning. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like the childrens ministry, nursery, or
music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We probably have. . .it takes
30-40 people to make everything happen on Sundays.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have dedicated people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They believe in reaching people with what
we’re doing, they want to be a part of it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s kind of how we got to where we are
now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What kind of church are you?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re a Christian church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We are a non-denominational church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are what we call an Evangelical Christian
Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That word, “evangelical,” it
comes from a Greek word <i><span style="background: white; color: #252525;">euangelizo</span></i><span style="background: white; color: #252525; mso-bidi-font-style: italic;"> (note:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>this is not the exact word PT used, but it’s
close) which means “to proclaim Christ.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A proclaimer, a heralder.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
what the word means.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i>Evangelion</i>
is another term for it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There is a
herald.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we herald the truth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>An evangelical church is a truth heralding
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The truth is the gospel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Churches that are very centered in telling
people how to become a follower of Jesus Christ and how to live their life for
Christ, they’re called evangelical Christian churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And even some of your Pentecostal churches
would be evangelical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s in
juxtaposition to the Protestants because the whole Catholic-Protestant, you
know, Reformation is kind of a thing of the past.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We would technically fall on the Protestant
side of things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the mainline
churches in America have deviated from what we would call the fundamentals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’ve gone extremely liberal
theologically.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s no big secret that
churches tend to be conservative on issues of sexuality and marriage and all of
those other factors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The mainline
denominations just kind of lost their heart and from our beliefs they kind of
lost their soul, too, because they kind of sold their soul, they sold out their
doctrines and beliefs in order to be accepted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They want to be accepted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
want the community at large to look at them and say, “Oh, you’re just like us.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span>But Christ says, “No.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They communities at-large are not supposed to
look at the church and say, “The church is just like us.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re supposed to see. . . We’re supposed
to be the city on a hill, a shining light, the candle that’s not put under the
bed, but put on a lamp stand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re
supposed to be the salt of the earth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That doesn’t mean we’re supposed to be combative.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You know, some churches are in your face or
mean.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just had a guy yesterday, he’s
LDS, and he put a picture of one of the temples where people are holding signs
saying “You’re gonna go to Hell.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s
just not . . .that’s not the shining light on the hill.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s better ways to dialogue with people
and win people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">While many
churches do a terrible job at it, the Protestants pretty much gave it all
away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not all of them, but most of
them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So the Protestant churches have
just died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Episcopalian churches
have died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Methodist churches have
died.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Lutheran churches have just
died on the vine all across the country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In a place like Utah, like St. George, they do well because you have a
lot of retirees moving here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And you have
a lot of, like, the Lutheran, the Methodist, the Presbyterian, they’re all
old.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re like 60, 70, 80 year old
congregants.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those churches are going to
die.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Within twenty years those churches
won’t exist because they’re not reaching younger people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And
you think it’s because. . . why?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They don’t stick to the truth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It doesn’t mean they don’t have any truth, but they kind of compromised
on what the truth is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They don’t stick
to what we used to call the fundamentals of the faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nowadays that’s a terrible word.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Especially in Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fundamentalists, you know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Baptists call themselves, some of them
call themselves the Fundamentalist Baptists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They don’t mean . . .all it means is that there’s key teachings of the
Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They basically have thrown those
things aside and a lot of the mainline Protestant churches went back to the
Roman Catholic Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Lutheran
churches have become very much more so like the Catholic Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not to poo poo the Catholics, but there’s a reason
you had a reformation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of them even
celebrated the “REformation.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So the
principles for which the reformation were fought in the Church have kind of
been lost on those churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the Protestant churches, they seem to be,
and this is my own thought process, more interested in tradition and making
sure the service goes a certain way rather than focusing on what you see as the
truth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They follow, you know,
they have their liturgy, they got their formalism.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I was in the navy I did join for a
period of time a Presbyterian Church because as a kid I went to a Presbyterian
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They never preached the Gospel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never heard a sermon on how I could become
a follower of Jesus Christ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Your
takeaway from these churches often times is, “Just be a good person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Join the Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Be baptized in the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Be a good person, obey the Golden Rule and
earn your way into God’s Grace.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Martin
Luther, he’s one of the founders, he’s often times called the founder, but
there was already a reformation movement underway, Luther just happened to nail
his 96 theses on the door there in Wittenburg at just the right time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The fighting words of the Reformation were <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">sole fide</i>, which if Latin for “faith
only.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Only by faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what distinguishes today many of the
Protestant churches from the Evangelical churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Evangelical churches outnumber, I believe,
the Protestant, per se.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Southern
Baptists, which number in the millions upon millions in this country, they’re
the largest Christian organization.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most
of them would fall under the Evangelical Christian category.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Evangelicals . . . probably the largest
blocks, you’ve got Catholics and then you’ve got Evangelicals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those would be the two largest blocks
today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the Evangelicals have broken
from the Protestants and they’ve gone about to do their own methods of
ministry, trying to embrace people where they are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’ve removed the formalism, the
structure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re just trying to make
it easy for people to come to God, remove the hindrances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not just remove, but it seems like churches
like your and others, in my mind I call the Bible Churches, you’re more willing
to morph into a more contemporary kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Even your page says that you’re a
contemporary church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have more
contemporary music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Your cross in neon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s glowing!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And you got the screens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And when
we build our building, the building that we’re gonna build is phenomenal, the
technology that’s going into that thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But where are people?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where do
you see people today?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re on their
phones.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why we have a web
app.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can look at my notes on your
phone while you’re in church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can
fill notes out on your Ipad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And the Catholics or the Episcopalians
haven’t, even the screens, they’re not interested.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s funny because now that they’re dying,
and the word sounds harsh, but that’s what’s happening. .<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>. Like my aunt, that church in Michigan, Star
Presbyterian where I went as a kid, my aunt’s an elder in that church and she
comes out here and she’s like, “Can you talk to my pastor” because she feels
like maybe we could keep more of the kids if we started putting some screens or
tvs in the auditorium.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I’m like. . . there’s no technique
that you do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not like you’re gonna
add a tv and you’re gonna keep people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s your entire mindset, you have to have a growth mindset, not a
closed mindset.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you have a church
that says there are zero sacred cows in this church, there is nothing in this
church, except for the scriptures themselves, there is nothing sacred to us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God and scriptures.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Come hell or high water everything else we do
is subject to change in a moment’s notice if it keeps us relavent with the
culture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where we draw the line, though,
and where the next big battle’s coming, is most churches still draw the line at
gay marriages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s not gonna
change.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s just gonna be a big old
fight that’s gonna destroy this nation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think it’s gonna divide us like we’ve never been divided and it’s
already happening.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I wish we could all just learn to get
along and respect one another and love one another and let God be the judge on
that, but that’s not the way it’s going.<o:p></o:p></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-19931497623157760582022-05-09T14:15:00.002-06:002022-05-18T14:14:49.772-06:00Interview with Pastor Tim, Southland Bible Church, October 30, 2015<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with Pastor Tim<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Southland Bible Church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Washington, Utah<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview takes place in Tim’s
office at the church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">October 30, 2015<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have Pastor Tim at the Southland Bible
Church in Washington, Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 1.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Pastor
Tim:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Correct<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Tim, please tell me your
biography.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Start as early in your life
as you can.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How did you end up here at
the Southland Bible Church in Washington, Utah?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Let me just start with. . .I was raised in a
home where we were taken to church, where we were taught the Bible from a very
young age.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was taught the Gospel that
is in the Bible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Briefly, the Gospel is that first of all
there’s some bad news for all of us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God
created man.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Man sinned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That sin became a barrier between a holy god
and sinful man.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you were in Michigan?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Grand Rapids, Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s where I was born and raised.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to this
Earth for the purpose of being our sacrificial lamb.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When John the Baptist saw him he said,
“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But unlike the Old Testament lambs which were
a picture of Christ, Christ was a fulfillment of that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When he went to the cross of Calvary,
willingly, knowing what he was doing, he paid for the sins of mankind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In full.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>When He said, “It’s finished,” it wasn’t that his life was finished,
he’d finished paying for sin and then it says he gave up his spirit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He died on the cross for my sins, for your
sins, for the sins of all mankind.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
was buried and rose again the third day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He is seated at the right hand of God today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Through the Bible, through His word, He has
made it known to us that we can be saved from the penalty of our sin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What is that penalty?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bible says the wages of sin is
death.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not just talking about
physical death, it’s talking about eternal death.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you go to the book of Revelation it talks
about the second death where people who did not put their faith and trust in
Christ as their Savior, stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment, God demonstrates
to them that they didn’t get saved, and he then gives them their sentence which
is the Lake of Fire, eternal separation from God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I tell you
all that to say that I knew all those facts as an 8 year old child but I
somehow hadn’t related the fact that this is a personal decision that I had to
make.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Even as an 8 year old I knew I was
a sinner.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do
you have brothers and sisters?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One sister and 2 brothers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was the oldest boy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So your parents were religious from the beginning
from the time that you can remember.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where they a specific denomination?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Was there a specific church that you went to?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was similar to the one I’m in right now,
an independent church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That means that
we don’t have a hierarchy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My dad was raised in a denomination, the
Methodist denomination.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They began
changing their belief system when he. . .he became a pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They started getting directives from the
Methodist organization:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“We no longer
believe in the Virgin birth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We no
longer believe that the Bible is necessarily the word of God.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is in your dad’s time?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that would be, what, the first half of the
20<sup>th</sup> Century?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This would be the 1940s and 50s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My dad believed the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So as these directives came he finally got up
in front of his church and said, “I can no longer be a pastor in this
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are some of the directives
that I’ve been told to teach, and I can’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m resigning today as your pastor.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well the people of the church, they’ve
been taught the word of God and they said, “If you can’t stay, we can’t stay.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Methodist Church owned the building,
so they had to vacate the building and they began an independent Bible Church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The whole purpose in their mind was, “We
don’t want ever this to happen to us again where the hierarchy tells us,
‘You’re going to change your belief system.’”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So the independent church movement actually began, this was happening in
a number of different denominations all at the same time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then they thought, “Where are we going to
get our pastors?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they began
developing independent Bible institutes:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Moody Bible Institute in Chicago is one of those.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Multnomah in Oregon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Grand Rapids School of Bible and Music in
Grand Rapids, Michigan, where I was from.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Dallas Theological Seminary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So these are. . .Can you call them Bible
Colleges?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They call them Bible Institutes because there
purpose was not to give a secular education or a degree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their purpose was to train pastors and
missionaries in the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In order to
do that they couldn’t be accredited as a school, but they could offer diplomas
and that type of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s where
independent churches began looking for their pastors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Coming back to my story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was sitting in Sunday School one time as an
8 year old boy and the teacher was teaching about the fact that we’re sinners
and that because of that sin we’re separated from God, we’re condemned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But Christ came to pay for our sin and He’s
offering us salvation as a gift.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Salvation from the penalty of our own sin if we will believe He is the
son of God come down from heaven.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He did
pay for our sins.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As an 8 year old one thing I understood
was I am a sinner.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew I’d lied, I
knew I’d stolen things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I could go down
the list.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew, “Okay, that applies to
me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I haven’t personally made that
decision.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I felt the weight of my
sin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nobody told me, “Now Tim, you need
to go do this.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I knew what I needed to
do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So in the privacy of my own heart,
nobody there knew what took place that day in me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I said, “Lord I know you are the son of
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know you came to this earth and
you died on the cross.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You paid for my
sin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You offer me heaven as a gift.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I accept you as my savior.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It wasn’t a big emotional experience, I just
felt relief.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That weight of sin I felt
was lifted from me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That decision as an
8 year old boy changed the course of my life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There were a lot of new things that were
happening in me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d never really cared
about knowing God’s word before that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
began to desire to know His words.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d
look at it on my own, ask a lot of questions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I wanted my friends to know about this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I began sharing with them and I had some bad experiences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did you go to public schools?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I did.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They were not as excited to hear the
things I was sharing as I was when I heard it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So I experienced that first rejection and even mockery.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But God continued to bring experiences
into my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to work at a camp
when I was 14.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was supposed to work in
the kitchen but when the counselors didn’t show up I ended up counseling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A Christian-type camp?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Part of our duties as counselors were to teach the Bible, devotions, and
answer questions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had the privilege of
leading some kids to Christ that summer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That gave me a taste . . “This is the most important thing I’ve done in
my 14 years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nothing compares to
this.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The difference between heaven and
hell is that decision.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember at
that age saying, “God, I’ll do whatever you want me to do with my life.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was very shy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought, “Well, God knows that so he’ll
never call me or ask me to do something that would require me to be up in front
of people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But he’s got something for me
to do,” I thought, “maybe a camp director.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I loved camps.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I eventually went to Bible School.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got to between my junior and senior year
and I still had no idea what I was going to do with my life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is the school in Grand Rapids?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Grand Rapids School of Bible and Music.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is it still there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It has now merged with a Baptist college and
is called Cornerstone University.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I prayed and was pleading with God, I
said, “God, I just want to know what you want me to do.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was reading Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 that night
and it says “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own
understanding.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the second part
of that verse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And it says, “In all your
ways acknowledge Him and He’ll direct your paths.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I stopped when I read that second part, the
part that says, “Lean not to your own understanding.” <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought, “That’s what I’ve been doing.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To my understanding God would never call me
to do anything that would involve public speaking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never was good at it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It terrified me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I remember climbing out of my bed,
getting down on my knees, and I said, “God, if you want me to do something that
involves speaking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you want me to be
a pastor, I’ll do anything you want me to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’ll trust You to give me the ability to do whatever that is.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I added this to my prayer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “In fact, if You give me an
opportunity to preach this summer I’ll take it.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was 19 years old.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nobody had ever asked me to preach in their
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought that was the safest
prayer I’d ever made.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My dad actually
worked at the Bible School.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He came home
three days later and he said. . .People called the school during the summer
time and asked faculty members to fill pulpits when the pastor is on
vacation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said, “All of the teachers
are committed in three weeks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I told
them you would come and preach.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
remembered what I’d promised God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
said, “Okay.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I had three weeks to prepare.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was terrified.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But when I went and preached that Sunday at
that church. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A non-denominational church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was a little Baptist Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I remember getting up there and suddenly
the fear was gone and I was far more interested in people understanding God’s
word than I was what they thought of me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I felt an ability that I had never felt before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the process of preaching that Sunday I
knew that “This is was God wants me to do for the rest of my life.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>From that point forward God threw open doors
to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had opportunities to preach in
churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One of the churches that I
preached at actually called me to be their pastor when I graduated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I graduated from school the last of May and
started pasturing the first of June as a single pastor, 23 years of age.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span> A single pastor?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I wasn’t married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Which is unusual.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I met my wife six years into my ministry
there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In Grand Rapids?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This was between Jackson and Ann Arbor,
Michigan; a little town called Manchester.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Faith Community Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We were married six years into that
ministry.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you were a head pastor?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The preaching pastor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That wasn’t specifically a Baptist Church?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That was an independent church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s 42 ½ years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve only been a pastor of two different
churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That one for 12 years and this
one for 30.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we were married.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was there 6 years and then we felt led to
come to St. George, Utah, to start a church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We did that 30 years ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, you can’t speak for Joy, but does she
have a similar religious background as you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Her family were missionaries in Chili and
Argentina, church planting missionaries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>She was raised in South America, she speaks Spanish as well as she does
English.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact, she’s a Spanish
interpreter here in St. George.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So she
grew up in that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She came to the same
Bible School that I came to a few years after I was there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But my home is in Grand Rapids and I often
went back and was around the school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So
we met there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, this is my ignorance, traditionally
women aren’t pastors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So when they go to a Bible School what was
she studying?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A lot of people went to the Bible School just
to get a Bible education.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s our
belief that if you get a good strong Bible education it’ll stand you in good
stead whatever you do in your life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’ll stand you in good stead as a husband or a wife, or a Sunday School
teacher at a church, whatever, even an occupation that you choose.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The school is actually set up with the
Freshman year what they call the Basic Christian Training Year and a lot of
kids came to get the Bible teaching and then they would go on to a secular
university to get trained in whatever career they were headed for.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were those who felt called to remain
there and prepare for ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
girls that were there were not there necessarily to prepare for pastoral
ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are areas of missionary
work that women are involved with, and a lot of different types of
ministry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For example, Hope Pregnancy
Care Center, here in town, was started by a lady from our church and it’s run
mostly by women, but it’s an outreach to girls who are in a crisis pregnancy;
seeking to help them and reach them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s lots of different types of ministries that gals can be involved
with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How did you come up with St. George?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You didn’t throw a dart at a map.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How did this come about?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We loved the church we were in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had no intention of ever leaving
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A friend of mine that I met when
I was 14 years old at that camp, the first time we met, he told me, “I feel God
wants me to be a church planter in Utah some day.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s a common term?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A “planter”?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It means starting from scratch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That never changed in him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were the same age.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We went to Bible School together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We roomed together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I took the pastor at Michigan, he came
out and started a church in Kaysville, which is Kaysville Bible Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Any idea of why he thought of Utah?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That goes back to a man who came to visit him who has become a good
friend of his and mine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His name is Dick
Manion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Dick was a church planter in
Idaho, from Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He shared in that
church and Ron felt like this guy, “This is what God wants me to do.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He walked up to him and told him after the
service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Dick has later said, “I saw
this young kid come up, he was 11 years old, and told me, ‘I’m gonna be a
church planter some day with you.’”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
he said, “Oh, okay.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ron went to Bible School.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ron kept in contact with Dick.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He eventually came out and worked summers
with him in Idaho.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then he felt burdened
to go to Kaysville, Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that’s
where he went.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That church is still in
existence, still flourishing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He planted
three churches in Utah. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now he’s the
head of a church planting mission.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Anyway, Ron was one of the missionaries
from our church in Michigan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He came to
Michigan and said, “I’d like . . .”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
had just moved to Cedar City and were planting Valley Bible Church which is
still there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said, “I’d like you to
pray two other Bible Churches get started in Southern Utah in the next five
years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One in St. George and one in
Richfield.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Would you as a church pray
for that?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We took that on as a prayer
project, and our family did as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
had family devotions where we read the Bible and prayed together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started praying that God would send
someone to start these churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was
preaching through the Book of Acts, and if you’re familiar with Acts, it’s the
story of Paul, who was a church planter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He went from city to city sharing the Gospel, planting churches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I’m praying for someone to go to St.
George, I’m preaching, and it’s like the messages I’m preaching to the
congregation are hitting me more.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
started thinking, “Maybe God wants me to be an answer to one of those
prayers.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Eventually I thought, “I got
to tell my wife what I’m thinking.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
came home one day and we were eating Sunday dinner and I said, “Joy, I think
God may call someone from our church to missions work.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>She said, “Who?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “I think it might be us.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I knew she loved the church there and I
thought, “She’s gonna say ‘No way.’”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
she said, “Maybe it is us.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’d been
thinking along those lines.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Eventually we came out . . .Ron had asked
us to come out for a week of meetings in Cedar City.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We came out and came down and saw St. George
for the first time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We put an ad in the
paper that just said, “Anyone interested in a Bible Church in St. George call
this number.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The day we were going to leave
we got a call from a guy and he said, “What is this church going to be like,
that you’re talking about?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And he said, “I’m a new Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I accepted Christ a couple years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve been praying for that kind of church to
come.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What year are we talking about here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We’re talking 1984.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>By the time we’d got done talking he said,
“I’ll be a part of this church if you come.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We kept contact with him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went back and started pasturing again, but
I’d be sitting there preparing messages but I’d be thinking about planting a
church in St. George.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Eventually I had
the assurance that this is what God wanted for me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we announced to our church, “We’re going
to be leaving in 6 months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>While we’re
here we’d like to go out and share this with other churches every other week
and then you can have pastoral candidates in in the meantime.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Why are you sharing it with other churches?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>To raise. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you’re officially coming out as a
missionary?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In an independent
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So this isn’t like the Baptists
who have these organizations. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Exactly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Each church makes their own decision whether. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you, as individuals, just kind of put
yourself out there and say, “This is what we’re doing, can you help us out?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Exactly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we left Michigan there was $400
committed to our support, per month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what we knew we were going to have, but we felt God wanted us
here at a certain time and I knew I was going to have to get a job and work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we arrived.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the three days it took us to get here that
support, once people heard we were on our way, went up to about $900.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s where it stayed during the time that I
received support.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I worked part-time
doing different jobs here in town and starting the church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That went on for 7 years, but the church
grew in that period of time that in seven years they were able to take on our
full support.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I could stop the
part-time work and devote myself to this completely.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were you at this location?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We started out in the conference room in what
was the Four Seasons Convention Center, which is now a youth, for troubled
teens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Right on St. George Boulevard.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Red Rock.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s a whole story in itself, how that
happened.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ron Thompson in Cedar City, he
knew one guy in St. George and he said, “Just stop in, I’ll tell him you’re
coming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ask him any questions you want
about the city.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After we were done talking with him we
thanked him and got up to leave, he was the manager of the Four Seasons, he
said, “Do you guys have a place to meet yet?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We said, “No.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “Let me show you something.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He took us down and he opened the door and
turned on a light and here’s this long conference room with chairs set up and a
pulpit up in front.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said, “Will this
work for you?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I said, “Yeah it would, but what would
this cost to rent?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “For you guys, nothing.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So God just dropped in our lap a place to
meet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He did something else, he offered
the people who worked for him, if they wanted to go to church on Sunday, they
could go that hour and he’d pay them for that hour.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So some of the first people coming to the
church were people who actually worked at the Four Seasons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first people who got saved were some of
those people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That was our beginning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Three years later we were able to purchase
land and build the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s that little. . .It’s
actually our nursery now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It sat 70
people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were there houses here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s to twin homes over here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That was all that was here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
fact the street ended there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had to
put a street in, in front of the church and run the utilities out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We built that first little building in 1987,
no, ’88.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Three years after we were
here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met in that conference room for
3 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How many congregants did you have at that
point?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We had, when we started the building project,
we only had about 30 people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By the time
we were done we had 45.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two years later
we had 90, which required us to build the second phase of the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is the fifth stage of this church that
has been added on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Does that all represent growth in
membership?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We only added on out of necessity, when we outgrew what we were meeting
in.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With Utah being 70% or so LDS, were there
any particular challenges or advantages to church planting here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We never faced any outward animosity from any
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our neighbors were very kind to
us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact we had, and still have good
friendships with, we don’t live in the same neighborhood anymore, but we still
have good friendships with those people, and they’re LDS.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The only thing we ever really faced was when
we were looking for property.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People
would find out what it was for and then say, “We’re going to take our property
off the market.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How this first building came into being,
we finally found a piece in Bloomington Ranches that a guy was willing to sell
us and he was willing to carry the contract on it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to the head of the architectural
control board and I said, “We need to know what you require in a building and
he said, “What kind of church is it?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I knew what he was asking but I said,
“It’s going to be a white colonial-style church.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “This isn’t an LDS church?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I said, “No.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “We don’t want you here and I’ll
do everything I can to keep you from being here.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The planning commission passed us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The City Council, when we got to that
meeting, he was there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’d obviously
talked to some of the council members and they turned us down and had really no
reason.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember the city manager
stood up in the meeting and said, “This makes no sense to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is how we’re going to get sued as a city
if you guys make decisions like this.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This was the city council of St. George.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There was a newspaper man there and he
wrote the article about it, and he wrote everything down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I cut the article out and made copies and
sent it out to the people who were on our prayer list and one man that I’d
never met before came across that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
happened to be a Christian lawyer and he called and said, “I’d be willing to
come to St. George to take this to court and we’ll keep appealing it until we
get it out of Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll do this <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">pro bono</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll get the city to pay for your church.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We prayed about that and thought, “That’s
gonna send a really wrong message cuz people aren’t gonna know all the
circumstances.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re just going to
know this little church is suing the city.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We thanked him and we said, “No thanks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We don’t feel that’s the way we want to go.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “I tell you what.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you find property, I’ll be your
bank.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll loan you the money to buy the
property.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we found this property we called him,
I said, “I don’t know if you still mean that but, if you mean it, we’d be happy
to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You just tell us what our payments
are going to be, what the interest rate is going to be.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He said, “I’ve been thinking about that,
praying about that, and I don’t think God wants me to loan you that money, I
think He wants me to give it to you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
I’ll loan you the money to build the church.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we immediately made plans to build a
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Had a builder from Michigan come
out and help us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “We’ll stop at
this guy’s house, cuz he doesn’t live anywhere near here and pick-up the check
and ask him what our payments are and what the interests it.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did he live in Utah?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
lived in Colorado.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When the builder got here he said, “This
isn’t a loan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is a gift.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So our first building was debt free.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Since then the church has been able to . .
.It comes from the congregation, nobody outside.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve been able to build and we’ve built with
cash all the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The people give what
they want to give.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s no
pressure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve been able to remain debt
free.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One of the things I said to our
congregation when we got into the first building was, “We’re not in debt, but
we really are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Someday if we can do this
for another church, we need to do this.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And Mountain View Bible Church in La Verkin, a few years later, we’d
outgrown this building.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had about
forty people coming from the La Verkin/Hurricane area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We felt like it was time to repay that
debt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We found land and the church
bought it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This church built Mountain
View Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I spoke at their dedication service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I said, “You’re not in debt but you are in
debt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Someday, if you can do this for
another church, you need to do this.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s how things started.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We just saw God’s hand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We came into this town with nothing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He provided me jobs and a place to live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s been a neat ride.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t take any credit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re just thankful we were able to watch it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Over 30 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Thirty years last June, when we arrived.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How many people attend a typical Sunday
service?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the winter time, that’s our big time of
the year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have Snowbirds that come
in, we run about 375.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the summer
time, about 325 on a Sunday morning.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s pretty good size for this town and
not being LDS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yeah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’re very thankful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you, this being your job, the pastor of
the church, it’s your job to find money as cheaply as possible to build new
buildings. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People can’t believe how we do this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As you’ve been here you haven’t heard me
mention money once.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You did once in saying that “We don’t ask
for a tithing, you give what you want.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I preach through books of the Bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are passages that talk about
giving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I get to those passages I
preach them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the New Testament does
not teach tithing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It teaches that each
man gives as he feels led of God to give what he feels he should.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a couple principles that God gives in
his word.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One is, instead of waiting to
the end of the week after you’ve spent everything on your pay check, you pray
about it up front and you set that money aside, then you give it on the first
day of the week, which is Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have
no idea what people give.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have a
treasurer and they have to take the offering and count it up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No one ever tells me what people gave, who
gave, and that is totally up to them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
tell that to people and they say, “That can’t work.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I say, “It’s worked for thirty
years.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My belief is this, if the church
is being led of God to do what it does, and people are being led of God to give
what God wants them to give, then it will always be enough.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve seen churches that I felt like ran ahead
of God and got themselves in trouble.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’ve seen churches where there’s a high pressured plea for money every week.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It seems the more you do that the less people
want to give.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Giving ought to be
something that we’re excited about, that because we’re giving to God’s work and
God is using it to change lives of people, that’s a great investment, so it’s
something we’re excited about doing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But, no, we don’t fundraise, we don’t beg the people to give.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They give what they want to give and, as I
said, for 30, well for 42 years because that’s the way it was in our first
church I pastured, we’ve seen God balance it out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="color: red;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you make some kind of paycheck from
pasturing, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The congregation determines what that is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They have a board?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have a board.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have congregational meetings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One of the things that they vote on is our
salaries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are aware of what we
make.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can tell you there have been a
lot of times when the whole pastoral staff has said, “We don’t want any
more.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have enough.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During building programs, and those types of
things, there have been, I think, seven years where none of us took any pay
increase whatsoever.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It happens at Dixie too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our desire is to see what’s best for the
church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If our families’ needs are met.
. .We’re not looking to get rich and we certainly are not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On the other hand I’m thankful that we
usually have to slow them down in their desire of what they want to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have said, “No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d rather see it go other places.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How many people are on the staff?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have three pastors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Myself and Dan and . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Dan spoke the other night?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He is the Assistant Pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Jason
is our Youth Pastor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those are the only
paid people on staff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Treasurer is not paid?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Everything else is volunteer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How do you find other pastors?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How did you find Dan and Jason?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Dan came to this church. . .He wasn’t a
believer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact, neither he nor his
wife were believers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were from two
different religions and when they moved to St. George they thought, “This is a
compromise.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a Bible Church, it’s
not a organized religion.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they
started coming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both of them accepted
Christ as their savior and then Dan grew by leaps and bounds as a
Christian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He devoured the Word of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He, voluntarily, was doing all kinds of
things around the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we needed
an Assistant Pastor I said, “We actually already have one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve got a guy who knows the Word of God,
who is involved with so much here.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So
we recommended to the church, the board did, the church voted unanimously to
have him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So he didn’t go to a Bible. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He has no formal Bible training, but I would
put his knowledge of God’s Word up against Seminary graduates.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He is that conscientious about studying and
knowing the Word of God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Jason went to Liberty College where Jerry
Falwell . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where is that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That is in Lynchburg, Virginia.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He came out here on some mission
trips.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had a friend that lived in
Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They came out to do different
things, like Vacation Bible Schools, pass-out literature for churches, that
kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He knew he wanted to be a
Youth Pastor and he had a desire to come to Utah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we were looking for a Youth Pastor, he
was just graduating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d met him and
knew him and he was highly recommended.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We had him come here as an intern first, to just, you know, get their
feet wet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If it doesn’t turn into
something more, then you thank them for their internship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it became clear to us that this is a
great Youth Pastor and we hired him after that internship.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What kind of church are you?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How do you, in the great tree of Christian
churches. . .and you’ve mentioned a number of other churches that have “Bible”
in their name, is that a type of church that has “Bible” in its name?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because there are other churches that, say,
might call themselves “Baptist” and still say that the Bible is the Word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For example, there are some Baptist Churches
here in town that, if you were to compare our Docrinal Statements, they’re
identical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We look at them as brothers
and sisters in Christ and we have a good relationship with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Calvary Chapel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They don’t necessarily have a hierarchy, but
they do have. . .Each Calvary Chapel, they call themself the Calvary Chapel,
they have a school out in California and they have a guy that kind of started
Calvary Chapels, but we recognize them as brothers and sisters in Christ, that
they are here for the same purpose as we are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Springs, the same thing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are some churches that there are
significant doctrinal differences in beliefs that we don’t work together
with.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t fight them, but we know
that we don’t see eye-to-eye as far as what we believe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re not someone that we necessarily
endorse or try to do things with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Practically speaking, then, what are Bible
Churches?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Good questions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I tell this to people and I really mean
it:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A Bible Church believes the Bible is
the Word of God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what we teach.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you come to any of our services it’s going
to be Bible related, everything that’s being taught.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of the time, what I preach and what Dan
preaches, we take them through a book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We start at the beginning and preach all the way through it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We believe that the Bible is the inspired
Word of God, it’s God’s message to man.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There is nothing more important that we can teach.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We don’t claim to be the only ones who do
that, there are a lot of great Baptist churches and there are a lot of great
Calvary Chapels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We like the word
“Bible” in our name because that is all about who we are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is our final authority, not me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I tell our people all the time, “I do my very
best to preach what is in the Bible, but if you see that I am departing from
what the Bible is teaching, you stick with the Bible and you reject what I’m
saying.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are times when I’ll give
my opinion on a passage and I’ll say, “This is my opinion, take it for what
it’s worth.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of the time the Bible
is really clear in what it’s saying.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As far as your actual services go, there a
division in my mind, there are more contemporary-type services which I place
you in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They usually have a band as
opposed to traditional hymns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have
the screens as opposed to everybody reading.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Have you always been doing it that way?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This had to be a conscious decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we started we sang out of hymn
books.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had piano and organ and one
man up there leading the singing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Baptist hymn books?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There’s just good hymn books out there that
Baptist Churches use, different Christian Churches use them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sometimes you change because you see
something better.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our song service, to
me, was getting very liturgical, very staid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I visited a church and they were using the screen, which got people’s
heads up out of the books, looking up toward the front.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They didn’t have a full band, but they had
people up there singing different parts and they did have some guitars and
drums and things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it isn’t that,
necessarily, it is the words of the music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what I talk with our guys that lead, I said, “To me the message
has got to be clear and good.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
started trying a few different things and our singing improved 1,000% and
people were much more involved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Sometimes you just see, “This works better for us.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t have a problem with anybody still
using piano and organ and a song leader if that’s what they feel is best for
them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We try to include one or two hymns
because we don’t want people to lose touch with the hymns because they have a
powerful message to them but a lot of the new songs have a powerful message to
them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Part of the challenge is to try and get
younger people to come, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’ve been to a few churches where, I’m 50
years old, and I’m the youngest guy in the room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fifteen years from now they might not exist
anymore.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But they’re strict, “We’re
gonna stick with the piano, organ, hymns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I suppose as it’s preaching God’s word, you don’t want to talk just
to old people, you want to talk to everybody.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Absolutely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And I’ve noticed this, this is just a fact of life, as I’ve come up
through the ministry from a 23 year old pastor to a 65 year old pastor, the
bulk of your congregation tends to be the age that you are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know why that is, but it tends to be
that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we were young we were
praying for older people to come into the church cuz we had all young people
and we wanted that balance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the last
few years we’ve started turning that corner and we’re praying for more young
families to come into the church.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We try
to do some things to reach out to them and meet their needs specifically, as
well as the older people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s one of
the challenges.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Anything I haven’t asked you that you want
to talk about?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You’ve hit exactly what I’d hoped to talk
about.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Like I told you, I don’t even know what I’m
asking at this point. I don’t know this world that well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are surface questions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">PT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Probably on Wednesday night you picked up
that our world views are always based on what we believe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Creation vs. evolution.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That has so many ramifications to where our
thinking is and where we stand and what we believe, which often means we stand
against where the culture is going and what’s politically correct.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We believe the Bible is unchanging and
therefore our beliefs are going to be unchanging regardless of where the
culture goes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s not always an easy
place to be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we believe that’s what
God put us here for.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For us the biggest,
most important thing of all is that people know what Christ did for them and
that they know that that offer of salvation is extended to them no matter where
they’ve been and what they’ve done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I run into two types of people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s the people that think, “I could never
be saved because of the life I’ve lived.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I talk to them about the apostle Paul.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The apostle Paul, before he became a Christian was a Pharisee and it was
his job to eliminate Christians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was
traveling around arresting, imprisoning, and consenting to their death.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then he met Christ and then Christ used
him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why I always use him as an
example to anyone who says, “I could never be saved.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I say, “Have you killed people?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Innocent people?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Have you killed people who didn’t believe
like you believed?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If God can save Paul,
He can save you.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then you have the opposite, the people who
believe they are so good, they’ve been such a good person that they don’t need
Christ.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s where you have to go to
the other, “All who’ve sinned come short of the glory of God.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Romans 3:23.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We all need a savior.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why
He came.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s why he loved us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That message, that Christ can save you, He
can change your life, He can give you a brand new beginning if you need a brand
new beginning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Bible says that if
any man be in Christ, he’s a new creature.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Old things are passed away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All
things are become new.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s here to give
you a fresh start in life and a purpose.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s why we’re here, that’s what we’re seeking, that’s the message
we’re seeking to get out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The joy for me
is actually seeing lives totally transformed by that message.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think that you’ve seen that in your
brother.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This isn’t just platitudes and
words, this is God doing the work in the hearts of people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what’s exciting to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After 42 years I still get up excited about
going to work and preparing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-38033408456681145252022-05-08T12:46:00.000-06:002022-05-08T12:46:31.747-06:00Belief Stories: Religion and the Social Construction of Reality<p> </p><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 26.0pt;">Belief
Stories: Religion and the Social Construction of Reality<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt; line-height: 115%;">By<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt;">Matthew
Smith-Lahrman<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt;">Professor
of Sociology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt;">Dixie
State University<a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Table of Contents<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief Stories, Religion in Washington County, Qualitative
Research, Reasoning by Analogy, and the Sociology of Religion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">2.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Moral
Order, Identity, and the Maintenance of Social Structure<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">3.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Formal Belief Stories: The Case of Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran
Synod Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">4.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Religious Services as Places Where
Belief Stories are Enacted and Observed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">5.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Belief Stories and the Social Construction of Reality<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">6.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Distinctions: Us versus
Them, One True Religion, Believers and Non-Believers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">7.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Being Religious, Acting Religious: The
Connection between Belief and Behavior</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">8.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Literary Belief Stories: </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious Texts Provide Stories for Living</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">9.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Stories
about God</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">10.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Externality of Belief Stories: The Case
of </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Born Again Stories</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">11.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Dealing with </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Contradictory
Stories: How Religious People Counter Challenges to Their Expressed Realities</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">12.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Conclusion/Discussion</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 16.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span></b>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Chapter 1<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Belief
Stories, Religion in Washington County, Qualitative Research, Reasoning by
Analogy, and the Sociology of Religion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is a book, grounded in observations
of the activities of religious people, about the social construction of reality.
More precisely, it is an examination of one way that people construct and
maintain identities within perceived realities, the enacting of belief stories.
Belief stories are interactional behaviors usually, though not exclusively, in
the form of spoken language people use to tell others and themselves what they
think is real. It follows that people act in situations based on what they
believe to be real. Therefore, this is a book about people’s actions, grounded
in an examination of the behaviors of people in religious settings. This
chapter serves as an introduction to my argument. In it I establish the concept
of belief stories, tell how I came to do this research, describe the setting
and methods I used in doing the research, go over the research process itself,
make a case for reasoning by analogy, and briefly summarize the sociology of
religion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Belief
Stories: An Introduction<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">A basic
sociological question revolves around human perceptions of reality: How is it
constructed and maintained? This book addresses this question. One way reality
is transmitted is through belief stories, tales about perceived realities.
Through situated behaviors we present to others our versions of reality and our
places within it. At the same time, we attempt to convince others of the
actuality of our expressed realities. Of course, others are doing the same
toward us. Coordinated actions occur because people, for practical purposes,
agree about realities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Following
W.I. and Dorothy Thomas’s famous dictum</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, our
actions are based on our perceived realities. If we belief it to be real, we
act as if it is. Thus, the stories we tell have consequences. In specific
moments they are meant to help us achieve desired goals. On a larger societal
level, stories are used by some to maintain power over others, to justify
stratification systems, to point out enemies. They are also used to create
cohesion among group members: if we act the same, then we must believe in the
same reality, and we are therefore, members of the same group.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We use
stories as presentations of our personal identities. By talking about ourselves
we tell others who we are. By presenting our beliefs in certain realities, we
present ourselves as types of people within those realities. By suggesting we
are types of people within realities we are presenting our beliefs in types of
groups, because personal identity is integrally tied to memberships in groups.
Because we believe we are types of people, because we believe we are members of
types of groups, we act as if we are.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Belief
stories express to self and others that one believes in certain things. For
instance, by stopping at a red light I signal my belief that red means stop and
I agree to the rules of the road. By attending a particular church and engaging
in shared rituals, I signal my belief in the church’s creeds.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In another sense, belief stories signal to
others our interactional intentions. When I enter a classroom and declare
myself the instructor, I signal to all in attendance that I will act like one.
I will be in the room from 11:00-11:50 every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I
will lecture, give assignments, grade assignments, and answer students’
questions. I am also signaling, of course, based on the previous proposition,
that I believe others in attendance are, indeed, students in my class. By
attending a particular religious congregation I signal my intention to act like
people in that congregation do: engage in particular rituals, sing along to
hymns. At the very least I am signaling that I will act reverent because that
is what people at church do.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Expressions of belief stories signal our
expectations that others will act in particular ways. By acting as if I am the
instructor in a class, I am signaling to others I expect them to act like
students. I expect them to take their seats, not talk over my lectures, do the
work I assign, and ask questions of me when they are confused. By presenting
myself as a congregant at a religious service I simultaneously signal my
expectation that others will be faithful to their statuses and roles: pastors
will preach, other congregants will perform rituals during the service, drink
coffee, and socialize before and after the service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>By signaling our intentions to act in
particular ways and our expectations that others will act particular ways, we
signal our belief in particular realities and, therefore, make known our
definitions of situations; we signal to others what we think is happening in
the moment. By behaving like a congregant and expecting others to behave in
their appropriate roles, I signal my belief that a religious service is
happening in the moment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Part and parcel of our signaling beliefs
in realities and definitions of situations is the presentation of personal
identities to self and others. By acting as if a reality is true we tell others
that we are particular kinds of people; we also confirm to ourselves that we
are particular kinds of people. I act like a professor, therefore I am. I act
like a congregant, therefore I am. Similarly, we recognize the identities and
perceived realities of others by observing their enacting of belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The enacting of belief stories signals our
intent to convince others of perceived realities. It is in our best interests
to convince others to agree to our realities in our attempts to achieve goals
in situations. We are more likely to achieve our goals if others do what we
expect them to do rather than act contrary to our presented realities. It works
to my benefit, for instance, if others in my class act like students rather
than disco dancers. It will be difficult for me to give a decent lecture if
there is loud music, disco balls, and others are dancing rather than taking
notes. Similarly, it benefits the pastor when others in the room act like
parishioners rather than, say, bull fighters. We want others to go along with
our realities so we can do whatever it is we intend within the situation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This book
is about belief stories: actions we take that present our understandings of
reality and our places within it. A ground-level sociological concern is with
reality and how it is shared and passed on by people. Belief stories are how
this is done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">My Research<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When one thinks of religion in Utah
generally, and Southwest Utah specifically, one thinks of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and since roughly two-thirds of the state’s
population are members of the Church, this is a legitimate thought. However, as
I found doing fieldwork in the area, St. George and its surrounding communities
host a plethora of weekly worship services in addition to the Sacrament
Meetings of the LDS Church. Not surprisingly most of these services are
Christian, though there are Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist services, as well.
Some of the congregations have 500 or more participants while others consist of
only two or three.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I work at Dixie State University (DSU), an
open-enrollment bachelor’s and master’s degree granting college in St. George,
Washington County, Utah. As a “teaching” college there is little pressure to
publish. Faculty members’ advancements up the ranks are based primarily off
indicators of teaching effectiveness. Research, especially of the non-student
oriented variety, is not part of our job descriptions.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I write this about my university
employment because it has played an important role in my research and writing
career. I have always researched and written about whatever I want,
sociological or not, and done so at my own pace. I am an ethnographer, a
fieldworker, a qualitative sociologist. Some areas of life I have studied
include a university Gay Academic Union, the peripheries of a radical
environmental group, dart throwers, behaviors in coffee houses (Smith-Lahrman
2010), Chicago’s indie rock music scene (Smith-Lahrman 2010b), and the lyrics
of Curt Kirkwood and the Meat Puppets (Smith-Lahrman 2014). I choose my
research topics based on personal interest rather than substantive consistency:
I am not a sociologist of religion, or rock and roll, or the Meat Puppets. I am
a fieldworker who imbeds himself within the life worlds of groups of people. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As an ethnographer it is not the substance
of people’s activities or the specific meanings they attach to their worlds that
are of primary interest. I am concerned with the interactional processes by
which substance and meaning are constructed to shape activities and create
structure, and the ways people use meaning to get through their everyday lives.
For example, as a graduate student in the late 1980s I suggested that there are
places, like Northern Arizona University’s (NAU) Gay Academic Union, where
people go to be themselves. LGBTQIA+ students at NAU constructed an arena where
they could be “out” without care. The Gay Academic Union was a dramatic example
of a basic social process (Glaser and Strauss 1967) that ordinary people do in
the courses of their ordinary lives.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My study of micro-behaviors in Evanston,
Illinois, coffee houses serves as another example of how specific meanings in
specific situations serve as dramatic examples of basic social processes (Smith-Lahrman
2010). In it I show how coffee house patrons create meaningful personal spaces
for themselves through the positioning of their bodies or the arrangements of
their jackets and books, as well as how they invade each others’ spaces through
violations of these same meaningful activities. Such behaviors are not unique
to coffee houses. People construct private spaces for themselves all the time
in all kinds of places.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A third example of how people use
meaningful gestures to create practical structure lies in my dissertation where
I outline Chicago’s indie rock music scene of the early 1990s (Smith-Lahrman
1996). Here I show how low-level rock musicians and support personnel created a
hierarchy of clubs and nights of the week as a yardstick to measure their success
(or lack thereof) within the scene. Creating meaningful social hierarchies is a
basic social process that occurs in the everyday worlds of many people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A final example of how I discovered basic
social processes within empirically dramatic examples is within my study of the
Meat Puppets (Smith-Lahrman 2014;<span style="color: red;"> </span>2011; 2015a,b,c,d,e,f).
Although the book focuses on the lyrics of the band’s songwriter, Curt
Kirkwood, there is also some band history thrown in for good measure. In the
history sections I show how a group of artists, in conjunction with a revolving
set of industry support personnel, created a meaningful career trajectory that made
sense for them. It is a trajectory that emphasized the band’s eclectic musical
tastes as well as their adamant do it yourself attitude gained from their
experiences in punk rock art worlds of the 1980s. As with the above examples,
the case of the Meat Puppets is a dramatic example of the ways that people
construct meaningful careers in a number of different professions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This Book<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Following
Robert Wuthnow’s argument in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The God
Problem</i> (2012) I, as a reasonably educated person, have difficulty
reconciling the idea of a personal god with a reasonable understanding of the
way things are. I was raised in a none/atheist family in Chula Vista,
California. At the age of five, I was given the option of staying home on
Sundays with my father and watching football or going to church with my mother.
I chose football. As a high school punk rocker in the early 1980s much of my
suburban middle-class “anger” was aimed at the faux sincerity of organized
Christianity. As a college sophomore at NAU I had an epiphany that, duh, there
is no god. For the next 30 years of my personal and professional life I was
adamantly pro-reason (i.e. science) and anti-delusional fantasy (i.e.
religion).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Twenty or
so years ago my younger brother was born again. His story is similar to many I
have heard in the course of my research. He was living a life of partying and
carousing. Somewhere in the process of sobering up he found God. It was not
long until he was the co-founder of an independent Christian fellowship in
Chula Vista. He is also the founder of an outreach organization that provides
meals and daily living supplies to people in need.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I finished
my Meat Puppets book in 2014 and was looking to engage in a more sociological
project. I wanted to do some ethnography. My brother’s recent acceptance of
Christianity, and what I perceive to be the good works he does as a Christian,
piqued my interest. Maybe I could soften my stance on religion and hang out
with some self-identified religious people and see how they perform religion
within their lives.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">My interest
in the social construction of meaning and the use of meaning to create
structure sealed the deal for me. Because substance does not matter at the
heart of the type of research I do, it does not matter whether or not religious
people’s thoughts and actions are perceived as irrational and absurd to those
of us who claim to be rational and reasonable. What matters is there are people
who live their daily lives within a structure created in part by their
religious beliefs. Behaviors within religious settings seem perfect for
observing the social construction of meaning; a dramatic example of a basic
social process.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In this
book, then, I highlight the importance of belief stories in the social
construction of culture, identity, and behavior. Religious services and
ideologies provide dramatic empirical examples of belief stories, but such
stories exist in all sorts of arenas. Therefore, it is not religion that I am
most interested in presenting here; this is not a book on the sociology of
religion. It is a book on the basic social process of the use of belief stories
to make sense of everyday life. Religion and religious services are springboards
from which I make a generic sociological argument.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Setting and Methods<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For 14 months in 2015-2016 I engaged in
fieldwork among religious congregations in Washington County, Utah, mainly in
the cities of St. George and Washington. Washington County sits in the
southwest corner of Utah along U.S. Highway 15, 120 miles northwest of Las
Vegas and 303 miles south of Salt Lake City. Its population in 2015 was
estimated to be 155,602 and it grew by 12.7% between 2010 and 2015. Its growth
rate at the time was more than that of Utah (8.4%) and the United States (4.1%)
(U.S. Census Bureau 2015). Washington County had a “Persons 65 and Over”
population of 19.6%, higher than both Utah (10%) and the U.S. (14.5%). Ninety-three
point seven percent of the county’s population was white, 10% “Hispanic or
Latino,” 2% mixed race, 1.7% American Indian/Alaskan Native, .9% Asian, and .8%
African American. The percentage of Washington County residents with bachelor’s
degrees or higher was 27.1%, below the Utah (30.6%) and national (29.3%)
percentages. A median household income of $49,498 placed Washington County
lower than both Utah ($59,846) and the U.S. ($53,482). Washington County’s
poverty rate of 12.9% was higher than Utah’s 11.7% but lower than the U.S. as a
whole (14.8%).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">These data
not only paint a demographic picture of the population in which I did my
research, but also show correlations between demographic data and religious
activities such as congregational attachments and service attendance. For
instance, in 2015 the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints had a
membership of less than 50% college graduates, as did Evangelical Protestant
congregations (Religious News Service 2015); both of these groups also had
relatively young memberships. On the other hand, mainline Protestant churches had
older and better educated memberships.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What I found in my research agreed with
these findings. People’s perceptions of Utah in general and Washington County
specifically as being predominantly LDS are correct. In Utah in 2010 the
adherence rate</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> of
Latter-day Saints as a whole was 691.2, twelve times the group with the next
highest rate, Catholics at 57.9 (Association for Religious Data Archives).
Washington County is not much different. The adherence rate for the LDS Church,
at 682, is only slightly lower than Utah as a whole, with Catholics in second
with a rate of 42.3. The third place group for both Utah and Washington County
is the same, Non-denominational Evangelical Protestants, though the rate in
Washington County (8.8) is higher than that for Utah as a whole (5.6). This
last fact is explained by the fact that Washington County has a lower
percentage of college graduates than Utah as a whole; Evangelical Protestant
churches have congregations with high percentages of non-college graduates.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My research began in January, 2015, when I
dedicated myself to reading deeply, widely, and exclusively religiously-based
literature, sociological and otherwise. I also began free writing memos
concerning my readings. My fieldwork investigating religious groups in
Washington County began in June, 2015, at which point I attended a different
congregational service each week for a year. In that year I attended services
with two different Episcopal churches, a Bible church, two Assemblies of God
churches, three Baptist churches, a Methodist church, a Calvary Chapel, two
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints wards (in the same building), a
Presbyterian church, a Foursquare fellowship, two Catholic churches, a meeting
of Quakers, a Jewish congregation, three different Lutheran Church synod
churches, a The Religious Science Institute, a Muslim congregation, a Church of
Christ Scientist, a Unity congregation, three non-denominational Evangelical
churches, a Church of Christ, a Unitarian gathering, a Buddhist gathering, and
a Jehovah’s Witness Kingdom Hall service.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn5;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The sizes of the congregations I visited
varied greatly from 700 or more at the St. George Catholic Church on Easter
Sunday, to a regular summer clientele of 350 at The Bible Church, to 200 or so
attendees at the Washington City 7<sup>th</sup> Ward of the LDS Church (there
are 236 Wards in Washington County), to the 85 people at the New Life Christian
Center, 65 at the Desert Ridge Baptist Church, 35 at the Muslims of St. George,
18 at the Church of Christ, 8 at the Unity Center for Positive Living, 4 at the
Dixie Drive District SGI Buddhist service (2 attendees made the 2-hour drive
from Las Vegas to pray), and 3 at the meeting of the Southern Utah Friends.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn6;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Some of the services I attended were in
buildings owned and operated by the religious organization performing the
service. For instance, The Episcopal Church, the St. George Catholic Church,
and the Calvary Church all owned their buildings. A few congregations met in
rented buildings: The Fellowship and The Community Church were in this
category.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn7;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Some were
granted space in the extra rooms of already existing churches: The Synagogue
Jewish congregation met in the back classrooms of the Good Shepherd
Presbyterian Church while the Unity Center of Positive Living met in the small
chapel of The Episcopal Church. The Muslims of St. George met in a room at
Dixie State University, the Southern Utah Friends rented a room in a private
arts building. A number of groups had “storefront” residences: The Religious
Science Institute and Desert Ridge Baptist Church were two. Finally, the Dixie
Drive District SGI Buddhists met in the home of one of their members.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Through my year of “church hopping” I
gained an understanding of what religious services in Washington County looked
like. Yes, there are many Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints wards
with a lot of members who meet regularly, but underneath this veneer of a
dominant religion is an active and diverse religious community. The largest of
these congregations were Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical Christians, but
there were active Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims, as well as some New Thought Religious
Science organizations. Most services, no matter the religion, lasted about an
hour, with some as short as 40 minutes and others as long as 2 hours. Some
services followed a strict liturgy with no improvisational activities while
others seemed to fall into interactional and spiritual anarchy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 375.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I interviewed nine religious leaders as
part of my research. I defined “leader” as whoever was conducting the service
of a particular congregation. My interviews included preachers/pastors from The
Episcopal Church, The Community Church, The Baptist Church, The Fellowship, The
Bible Church, The Religious Science Institute, The Four Square Church, a reader
from the Church of Christ Science, and the Rabbi at The Synagogue. The
Christian Science reader later asked that I not use material from our interview
in my writing and presentations, so I deleted it from my data base. Eight
interviews is not a lot, but it adds to my understanding of what it means to be
a member of a religious congregation in Washington County, Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 375.0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The next stage of my research, which began
in June, 2016, was to engage in an extended residency with a single
congregation in the county. By doing so I became familiar with how one
congregation, The Lutheran Church, operated not only within themselves, but
also within the larger milieu of organized religion in the county. A member of
the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, The Lutheran Church was a relatively
new member of the Washington County religious community. It was planted in 2015
and had a regular Sunday attendance of about 15 people. I attended Sunday
services and Thursday Bible lessons at The Lutheran Church from June through
August, 2016.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">When
I began my research I was ignorant of what happens in religious services. This
is why I chose to study and write about them. I wanted to write an
all-encompassing treatise about religion, a grand sociological theory that
covered everything religious. This would require a broad understanding of the
empirical realities of religion. I wanted to come to an understanding of all
religions everywhere: Christianity (and its variants), Islam (and its
variants), Judaism (and its variants), Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Santa
Muerte, Spaghetti Monsters. All of it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One way to do this
would have been to immerse myself in a specific empirical faction of a religion
– a congregation, maybe - and describe it in detail, but I was not in a life
stage where such field work made sense. It would take many hours of time spent
with a congregation and then many more hours at the computer writing about it.
Maybe someday this would be possible, but not then.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another option, the
one I ended up pursuing, was to come to a cursory empirical understanding of
many different religious congregations or services coupled with a sociological understanding
of religion. These are two different things. The first is an empirical
understanding of as many religious services as I could handle. It would be
great if such an understanding could be empirically thick. The second is
theoretical, what sociologists have to say about religion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Much of my understanding of religion was going to be through
secondary data. I was confident that I am good at this, but I would have to
make it clear in anything I write that I am using secondary data, that “so and
so says this about this religion,” rather than “this religion is. . .” I would
stick with the data I had and make it clear to readers what kinds of data I was
using.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">So I began by doing a lot of reading about religion. I listened
to podcasts about religion, I watched a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Great
Courses</i> series about religion, I tried to pay attention to things people
said about religion, and to things in the news about religion. The goal was to
write a sweeping theoretical treatise answering the question, “What is
religion?” I thought I could do this with a passing understanding of the
multiple religious services I observed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Eventually I realized
I could not define “religion” outside of people’s definitions of it. I cannot
define anything, if I am sociologically honest, outside of people’s definitions
of anything. But I would have to try. I had to go somewhere and interact with
some people within some type of setting that I and, presumably they, think of
as religious. I would have to go to a church, for instance. I would have to
observe how churches work. That is, I would need to observe people interacting
with each other in situations that they define as religious.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the end I have not
defined “religion” except to use the term within the interactional contexts in
which the people I observed used it. Instead, I discovered a basic social
process I call belief stories. Within religious settings people tell stories
that solidify, or not, their perceptions of themselves and other people as
religious, or not; as members of such-and-such congregation, or not; as
believing in something supernatural, or not. As a basic social process, belief
stories are told in many interactional settings: rock music fans tell them as a
way of classifying the music they listen to as of one genre or another; sports
fans use them as a way of defending their status as a fan of one team over
another; families use them as a way to identify themselves as a coherent unit
with a unique focus.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 375.0pt;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Research Process<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My
research progressed through five stages. Stage One, the Preparation Stage,
began in late 2014 and lasted until June, 2015. It was during this time that I
committed myself to, first, reading whatever I could on the Sociology of
Religion and religion generally. I wrote analytic memos during this stage, a
practice that continued throughout the entirety of the project. This was the stage
in which I prepared for primary data gathering.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Stage
Two was the Data Gathering Stage. It began in June, 2015, with my first visit
to my first church service, The Episcopal Church’s Wednesday meeting. Stage Two
lasted for fourteen months, ending in August 2016. The first 12 months involved
me visiting a different religious congregation each week, the last three with
an extended research internship at The Lutheran Church. I interviewed nine congregational
leaders during this stage.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Nestled
in toward the end of the Data Gathering Stage was my preparation and
presentation of a paper on August 20, 2015, for the Association for the
Sociology of Religion (Smith-Lahrman 2016). </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">In
the presentation I gave a description of the empirical reality of religion in
Washington County, Utah, similar to the one I gave in this chapter, and moved
into a discussion of “moral order reality structures,” ways the people make
sense of their worlds so as to give meaning to their lives.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The next stage was the Literature Review Stage. In
this stage I wrote memos about each of the books and articles I read in the
course of doing this research. I was selective in deciding what sections of
which books and articles helped with the story I wanted to tell while also
allowing the readings to help shape the story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next came
the Organization Stage. Here I coded and arranged my data. This included
reading through and coding all of my interviews and memos. I then read through
the codes and organized them into coherent and logically consistent sequences
of ideas that might resemble a book. </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">I
used the qualitative software program In Vivo to help with the organizing of my
data; it allowed me to do on the computer – create and group conceptual
categories – what I have previously done by hand using three-by-five cards.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally
was the Writing Stage. At this point I smoothed out the edges that existed in
the rough structure of ideas from the Organization Stage: I added or deleted
sentences and paragraphs where needed, rearranged sections where necessary, and
generally put together a book, like putting together Legos, out of the
disparate parts I had already created.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Reasoning by Analogy<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The sociologist’s job
is to document how people construct and maintain order. Sociologists also
document the order that people say they perceive, because this perception is
what they are trying to maintain. To this end I distinguished between formal
and informal observations in my research. Formal observations were those where
I dedicated a week to one congregation. I attended as many of that
congregation’s sessions as possible and interviewed its leader. Informal observations
were visits to services that I did not plan to write specific field notes
about; no interviews took place related to informal observations. Informal
observations happened every week. I tried to attend at least one service per
week, varying the congregations I attended. Informal observations happened
mostly between interviews associated with formal observations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Howard S. Becker (2014)
refers to this type of research as “reasoning by analogy.” I attended the
services of numerous religious organizations and hashed-out how they were
similar to and different from each other. But I also wanted to know how
religion is similar to and different from other things that people do. I wanted
to isolate a certain human activity and highlight its generic qualities. I
wanted to write that religion is a unique activity while at the same time
showing how it has things in common with other activities. In parts of this
book, for instance, I compare religious services with live rock music events. As
an example, rockers utilize belief stories in the same ways religious folks do,
to maintain group and individual identity and, thus, have a purpose for acting.
I use my “construction of rock” as an analogically comparative case to
understand religious belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reasoning by analogy
provides the researcher with “a collection of connected researchable questions
about a family of related phenomena” (Becker 2014: 60). All of my sociological
research has focused on identity: how is it that one comes to see oneself as a
specific type of person and, consequently, how is it that one comes to see
others as types of people who are like or unlike oneself? My rock research
focused on how rockers defined and enacted “rock” as a part of themselves and,
consequently, themselves as a part of a larger “scene” of rockers. My religion
research focuses on how people come to define themselves as certain types of
religious persons and how, consequently, they define themselves as members of a
larger congregations of people who are defined similarly. For both groups of
people identity comes about the same way: through the construction and
maintenance of belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Sociology
as Science<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Scientists
often allude to things as if they are so obvious as to require “neither logical
argument or empirical proof” (Becker 2014: 168). “What about Murder?” asks Howard
Becker. Is not murder obviously an evil act? Well, the taking of life can be
defined in many ways. In specific sets of circumstances defined by certain
groups of people, certain activities called “murder” are, indeed, evil acts.
One cannot empirically prove that the taking of life is an evil act other than
to point out the subjective nature of the label. What about Mozart? Surely he
was a musical genius. Well, if one accepts certain definitions of what music is
and what competent musicians do then, yes, Mozart was a musical genius. But not
everyone agrees to this definition of music. One cannot show empirically that
Mozart was a genius other than to say that some people created some rules of
music and perceive that he mastered these rules as only a “genius” could.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Is
it possible to be too scientific?<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> </b>Peter
Berger (1967: 128) suggests that increasingly complex scientific methods
constrain rather than enhance the sociological agenda. Sociology has put itself
in a methodological hole which minimizes micro-interactional processes and
qualitative research at the expense of multivariate analysis and quick
statistical presentations (Smith et al. 2013). Complex methodological
techniques take us away from sociology’s purposes of describing, explaining,
and predicting interactional behaviors. Such a purpose is best realized through
direct observations of real people interacting in real situations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Becker continues that
the goal of the best social scientific research is to reason from specific
empirical cases which lead to the discovery of social processes and the details
of social organization that produce them. Good researchers collect enough data
to allow them to go beyond guesswork in explaining what is going on in the case
being studied. (Becker, 2014: 5) Religious people and their activities, the
empirical data for this book, provide dramatic examples for a more generic
basic social process (Glaser & Strauss 1967): the construction and
maintenance of belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Robert Wuthow
suggests sociologists should spend less time focused on the periphery, on the
extremes of expression, and more time at the center studying the mundane
(Wuthnow 2012: 252). If we want to understand what people do, what normal
people do, then we need to observe normal people doing normal things. The
virtue of survey/questionnaire research, argues William Bainbridge, is in its
ability to map variations in beliefs, attitudes, and behavior across groups in
a population (Bainbridge 1997: 42). The weakness of such research is that it
overlooks, by design, the real-time empirical interactions of people within
those groups. Becker (Becker 2014: 157) suggests that survey results and
frequency distributions do not tell the whole story of any behavior. We must
get close to the data, compare our findings with a multitude and variety of
cases, and see how real people in real situations behave. Church attendance
numbers, for example, do not tell the whole story of what it means to be
religious. To get this one needs to be in the presence of people being
religious.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we do
sociological research comparing cases we should make our typologies more
complex rather than simple (Becker 2014). We look at a case (say, a local
church), describe everything we can about it, then look at another case that is
similar to the first in some ways (say, another local church). We should then
describe everything we can about Church #2 with the exception that the things
we described in Church #1 guide our focus for Church #2. We continue on with
this for as many cases as we can.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Becker's
methodological point is that sociology should be about describing complexity,
not reductionism. We are not looking for that one variable relationship that
describes everything, because it does not exist. Human behavior is much too
complex for this. Instead, we should set a goal to describe all of the possible
ways that different instances of similar cases are manifest, the way that a
particular activity occurs in different cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reasoning by analogy,
I asked the same two questions of every observation I made, and I found as wide
an assortment of examples as I could (Becker 2014: 66). I asked, “How does this
case lead to the recognition of personal and or group identity?” and, “What
kind of belief story is this?” The answers to these questions provided a large
assortment of belief stories that all lead to the same place: the creation of
personal and group identities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Traditional
social science, Becker writes, looks for correlations between input and output,
independent and dependent variables. The sociologist tries to account for the
existence of the values of one variable by measuring its relationships to the
values of another. For instance, years of education is negatively correlated
with number of children for women in most developed countries (Pradhan </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">2015</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">)<span style="color: #212121;">. The independent variable, years
of education, is seen to directly influence the dependent variable, number of
children. Of course, since this is an example of correlation rather than cause,
the variables can be flipped; number of children (independent variable)
directly influences women’s years of education (dependent variable). The
problem, argues Becker, is that such reasoning is too simplistic. It reduces a
complex social phenomenon down to a few variables without trying to understand
just how those variables work together.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Becker
suggests the methodological idea of a black box to deal with the complexity of
human behavior. In this technique the researcher identifies an outcome (say,
the construction of identity), studies it intensely over a number of similar
and different cases, and discovers variables that seem to influence the outcome
(say, belief stories). Instead of running a correlation, however, they try to
explain, in as much detail as possible, all the ways the input is related to
the output in as many different cases as possible. The black box is what sits
in between the input and the output, all the ways the input is related to the
output. The researcher should find as many inputs as possible, there is no
limit. Each new input is, as with the ones before it, examined in as many
different cases as possible (again, there is no limit to the number of cases
the researcher should use except for the researcher’s own physical and
psychological capabilities). It is what happens inside that black box that
should interest the sociologist. The attempt is to explain all the ways the
input variables work with the output variable and with other input variables.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
data I gathered suggest an outcome of personal and group identity. We present
ourselves to others as certain types of people and as members of certain types
of groups. We act within specific situations as if we are these types of
people. The input, the inside of the black box, is belief stories. The things
people say and do, their stories, mix and mingle in myriad ways resulting in
presentations of self as types of people and members of groups.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Sociology
of Religion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In 2013 Christian
Smith and colleagues published an article in the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Journal for the American Academy of Religion</i><span style="color: red;"> </span>“on the status of religion in American Sociology.”</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn8;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">. In it, they argue that standard sociological methods “reflect
assumptions about and treatments of religion that are so thin, skewed, and
misleading that they constitute a serious obstacle to understanding and
explaining the complexity of real religious phenomena” (Smith et al. 2013:
909). Most studies enter a limited set of variables into their multiple
regression equations that result in reductionist understandings of complex
phenomena. The solution, of course, is to engage in deep ethnographic analyses
of specific empirical cases and, through comparison, the creation of
theoretical insights about human basic social processes.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #00b0f0; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Smith et al suggest the continued interest in the sociology of
religion is driven by the fact that religion in American life is not going
away. Sociologists of the nineteenth century predicted religion’s demise as
societies industrialized (modernization theory), but they were wrong. By numerous
measures, religion in American life is as strong as ever and sociologists are
realizing that if they want to understand modern human interactional behaviors,
they must account for religion (Smith et al. 2013: 907).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There needs to be a
two-way stream between religion and sociology (Smith et al. 2013: 926).
Sociologists need to stop thinking they know more about religion than religious
folks do (which, in some ways, they do), and religious folks need to stop
thinking that sociologists are out to destroy faith (which is, unfortunately,
what some want to do). Sociologists need to start listening to and involving
religious folks in their studies; they need to start taking them seriously.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sociologists should
be open to the role of religion in shaping current beliefs in science as a way
to explain the world. (Smith et al. 2013: 930-31) Scientists, social and
otherwise, tend to see religion as <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">less
than</i> science as an explanation for things. For a more thorough
understanding of what religion is and what religious people are up to,
sociologists must start listening in an honest manner to the things these folks
say. Sociologists need to take the belief stories of religious people
seriously.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sociologists must be
conscious of their motivations for studying religion in the first place (Smith
et al. 2013: 922-23). We all have reasons for doing what we do. We all have
definitions of the situations in which we act. This is as true for social
scientists as it is for anyone else. If we are searching for the truth in our
studies of religion, we must also acknowledge the truth of our studying it in
the first place.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 375.0pt; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Organization of the Book<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">My
motivation for writing this book was to discover basic social processes within
the activities of religious people. As mentioned, this is not a book on the
sociology of religion per se; it is a book about the social construction of reality
within religious interactional settings. Chapter two is theoretical. It covers
some salient sociological ideas about interaction, social construction of
reality, moral order, and identity. In chapters three and four I describe the
religious services I observed, including data garnered from the religious
leaders I interviewed. In chapters five through eleven I describe the types of
belief stories I discovered in my observations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span></b>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Chapter 2<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Moral
Order, Identity, and the Maintenance of Social Structure<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
thrust of my argument about belief stories and identity has to do with the
social construction of reality as a moral order. People have beliefs. They act
based on their beliefs. They believe what they believe based on interactions
and experiences they have in their lives. They negotiate present definitions of
situations with self and others based on the beliefs they bring to the
situation. Others believe the situation to be something, self believes the
situation to be something, too. Interactional negotiations are based on
individuals in the situations trying to convince each other of their beliefs
about what is going on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Peoples’
definitions of situations <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">are </i>their
realities. Their definitions of situations include claims to self importance.
Therefore peoples’ definitions of situations are beliefs about morality.
Specific realities validate individuals’ claims to legitimate existences;
therefore individuals have vested interests in convincing others to accept
projected realities. Those who deny realities deny others’ rights to exist.
Individuals want to have their existences validated, therefore they do what
they can to convince others of the validity of certain realities. Others’
realities are more or less congruent with one’s own. Others who are perceived
to hold different realities are seen as wrong to greater or lesser degrees.
Those whose realities are seen to be way different are seen to hold identities
that are way wrong, those whose realities are seen as a little different are
seen as a little wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">One feels more or less dignified in a situation to
the degree one’s perceptions of others’ perceived realities mesh with one’s
own. To the degree that one perceives others’ realities to be different from
one’s own one will act to restore one’s dignity. To the extent that people feel
a need to dignify their own existence through the enforcement of their peculiar
reality also must they spend time acting so as to confirm them. People spend a
lot of time interacting with others in ways that confirm realities, beliefs,
definitions of situations. Reality confirming interactions are some of the most
common of human behaviors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Reality confirming events create cohesion or,
rather, the desire for membership in cohesive groups is a driving force behind
reality confirming events. Religious services are reality confirming. The
rituals contained within them, the participation of congregants in doing the
rituals, create a sense of cohesion or attraction to the group. This attraction
comes from the belief that others acting like one acts within the service
believe the same things that one does and, thus, live the same reality as one
does and, thus, support one’s identity presentations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Levels of Thought<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Social Mindscapes</i> (1997), Eviatar </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Zerubavel<span style="color: #212121;"> argues there are three
levels of understanding thought. The first is “cognitive individualism” where
all thoughts belong to the individual and are completely unique. Second is
“cognitive universalism,” there is something about thought that all humans share
that separates us from the thought processes of other creatures. Cognitive
individualism and cognitive universalism are seen as polar opposites on a
continuum. At one end (individualism) all thoughts are unique, no two
individuals think the same. At the other end, all thinking is the same, the
thought <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">processes</i> of all human beings
are the same.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Zerubavel
suggests there is a level of thought that rests between individual and
universal, thought at the social level. “Thought communities,” as he calls
them, are evidenced by the fact that we share our thoughts with other people.
The words we use in thinking to ourselves are the same words that other people
who speak our language use when doing the same, but they are different from the
words that people from other language communities use when thinking to
themselves. Furthermore, the things we pay attention to are things that we
share with a culture of people for whom these things are important; people from
other cultures pay attention to other things.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Zerubavel’s
thought communities are similar to Tamotsu </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Shibutani’s<span style="color: #212121;"> (1955) “reference groups” and Edwin </span>Sutherland’s<span style="color: #212121;"> (1939) “</span>differential association<span style="color: #212121;">.” The idea is that our thoughts are the same as those
with whom we associate. On a grand level, for instance, Americans think of
leadership in different ways than, say, Saudis do: achieved versus ascribed
statuses. On another level, African Americans generally think of the police
differently than white Americans do. A botanist and an archaeologist will
notice different things while hiking in the desert.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Rather
than focusing on the cognitive similarities of people, argues Zerubavel,
sociologists should pay attention to cognitive diversity, the understanding of
the ways people have different thought processes based on the communities of
which they are members. The differing belief stories of different religious
communities, for instance, account for differing thought patterns among
congregational members and, thus, differing behaviors based on these differing
thought patterns.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What Zerubavel calls
cognitive socialization allows us to enter the intersubjective worlds of
others. Becoming social implies learning not only how to act, but also how to
think. Through socialization we come to assign the same meanings to the same
objects as others within our environments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Zerubavel continues
that<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> </b>the roots of modern cognitive
pluralism are partly structural. Modern mobility patterns create people who are
members of multiple thought communities and, thus, have multiple ways of thinking
about things. Thought communities compete with one another for the allegiances
of people and their thoughts and actions; religious congregations compete with
one another for members’ thought allegiances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Optical
pluralism is the idea that there are multiple lenses through which we see
objects (Zerubavel 1997). Optical pluralism is a direct result of cognitive
pluralism. People of different communities use different words to label their
worlds. Therefore, people of different communities actually see the worlds
around them in differing ways. As members of different thought communities we
become receptive to different views of reality. Members of different religions
are receptive to different ideas about what is true and what is not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
presence of society is ubiquitous in our minds (Zerubavel 1997). We adopt what
we believe to be the realities of our community members as our own beliefs, and
they are always there, and we always act as if they are. Our private thoughts
are not so private after all. We tell ourselves the same stories that our
community members tell each other and, presumably, themselves. What actually
enters our minds, then, those things we are attentive to, are by no means
entirely personal. They are the product of our interactions with others in our
thought communities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
normative delineation of our attention is a form of social control (Zerubavel).
The communities of which we are a part, through socialization (through the
telling of belief stories), essentially control what we see and think and even
what simply crosses our minds. Of course, we are complicit in the dissemination
of these same belief stories and, thus, complicit in the control of our fellow
community members.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Social Construction of Reality<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sociologists have a
conundrum. They agree there is such a thing as social structure. The problem is
that we cannot actually see it. We see some of the physical world. We see the
moon. We see ice. We hear coyotes singing. But can we see society? Can we see race?
Or gender? Or class? We agree that these things exist, that they exist above
and beyond individuals, that individuals are born into already existing
societies that have races and genders and classes into which they are placed,
into which they move in and out. But can we see them?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The answer is no. We
cannot see social structure. Empirically speaking society does not exist, race
does not exist, gender and class do not exist. What exist are people who
perceive that such structural entities are real. People perceive that race
exists above and beyond themselves. They perceive that there are some number of
races out there and that everyone belongs to one or two. Therefore, within
individuals’ own thought processes one belongs to one particular race or another,
a particular gender or another, a particular class or another, one society or
another.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Individuals share
their ideas about social structure with each other. We tell each other what we
think about race or gender and class or society. We talk about “America” as an
entity. We have symbols, like flags, and rituals, like the Pledge of
Allegiance, that stand for the structural entity “America.” We socialize our
young people, in school for instance, to recognize “America” as something that
exists out there, as something we can see just like rain or gravity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People act by
projecting meanings onto their experiences. Things happen to individuals: they
touch hot stoves, light shines in their eyes, dogs bite them, girls touch them,
horns honk. People exist in worlds in which things are happening; some of these
things happen to them, most things happen around them. One of the things that
happen in the worlds in which people exist is that other people act toward them
and, in turn, people act toward other people. To understand how people act in
relation to things happening to and around them, we must understand the
meanings people place upon them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One of the ways
people act is based on goals they have in situations. This is pragmatism.
People want to attain their goals (though they do not always succeed in doing
so); they pick out things in their environments to help them do this. They then
act toward these things in ways they think will help them attain their goals.
Thus, things have meaning based on how people intend to use them within
situations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have vested
interests in encouraging each other to recognize the existence of objects and
goals, for in order to attain our individual goals we need others to act in
ways that make such attainment possible. Therefore we actively encourage others
at every interactional moment to take on a perspective of the situation that
fits our own.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People act as if
structure exists. They use structure to attain their goals in the same way they
use other objects in the situation; they manipulate objects (structure
included) so as to succeed in accomplishing tasks. We are all doing this at the
same time. I manipulate situational objects, including you, while you are doing
the same to me at the same time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We share perceptions
of objects and structure with others. We are often after the same things; our
goals are complimentary. Together, through interaction, we label the objects in
our realities similarly so as to accomplish goals together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People’s religious
beliefs, then, are perceptions of social structure. We believe God exists “out
there,” that our religious group (i.e. Catholic, Muslim, Mormon) exists “out
there,” outside of ourselves. We present our selves as types of religious
people. We have goals within situations, often of a religious nature. We
manipulate objects in situations in attempts to attain our religious goals. We
share perceptions of religious structures with others we consider members of
our congregations. Together we create goals, we share realities, we act.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">World Building<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Using
religion as an extended example of the social construction of social structure,
Peter Berger (1967: 3) argues that<span style="color: red;"> </span>society is an
enterprise of world-building that provides stability for individuals. Not
having the biological stability of other creatures, people build stability for
themselves in the form of culture (Berger 1967: 6). Culture thus becomes
“second nature,” though it is the construct of men, not nature. People’s
cultural worlds confront them as facticities outside themselves (Berger 1967:
8-9). Culture stands outside the subjectivities of individuals just like rocks
or oxygen. Cultural worlds are perceived by people as not created by people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Human built
societies, then, provide worlds for people to inhabit (Berger 1967: 13). These
worlds encompass the biographies of individuals which are only seen as
objectively real so far as the worlds in which they live are seen as such.
Individual’s own lives seem objective only as they are located within worlds
which themselves are seen as characters of objective reality.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">This
“cosmization” of reality provides individuals with subjective senses of their
own rightness (Berger 1967: 37). People’s roles are reinforced through their
interactions with supporting others who believe in the same cultural worlds. To
place their realities within a larger ordering of the cosmos allows people to
place themselves within that order, giving them a sense of purpose, a role to
play.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Social Structure as Moral Order<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The vested interests
we have in maintaining our perceptions of reality work at many levels. This is
what sociologists mean when they say that culture is shared. We align our
perspectives with others in order to maintain realities, in order to maintain
moral orders. But the alignment is not enacted at a structural level. Order is
always maintained at an individual level. I maintain my view of reality that I
am a teacher, for example, in my individual acts as what I believe a teacher is
(which is, of course, tied to what I think others I am acting with think a
teacher is). Others help me maintain this reality, not because they care that I
am a moral character in a moral order, but because they want to maintain their
place within what they perceive to be a moral order. The students within a
class, for instance, want me to perceive them as “students” within a reality in
which students are valued. They act like students because they want me to act
like an instructor who acts toward them as students. In this way they can
achieve their goals within a situation they perceive as being morally correct.
We cooperate. We try to be compatible. We are complimentary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> is more to the story than simply people wanting to maintain
their sense of a moral order. People have other reasons for acting with one
another than simply wanting to maintain a perceived reality of some kind. It is
more empirically complex than I am suggesting. Sometimes people interact with
one another because they genuinely want to help each other, or they genuinely
want to engage in an economic transaction, or because they genuinely want to
make love to one another. They probably never think, “Hmm. . .I should interact
with this fellow because I want to maintain my perceptions of a moral
structural reality.” Instead, they simply feel that such and such a behavior is
appropriate for such and such a situation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Cooperation also
happens within relationships that are not in the immediate presence of others.
For instance, the cashier at my university who runs the program that direct
deposits money into my checking account twice per month does not know me and I
do not know her. I do not know that we are ever even in the same room together.
When we are, we do not acknowledge each other or our structural relationship.
The cashier and I, however, unintentionally maintain each others’ perceptions
of reality and moral order. Her job exists because there are people at Dixie
State University who act like they do (teachers, custodians, registrars)
because they get paid to do so. My job exists because someone (a number of
someones) agrees that a job like mine should exist within a particular reality
and moral order. The cashier does not consciously think about me when doing her
job and I rarely think about her. But we are both participants within a shared
moral order and reality. By acting like a cashier she allows me to act like a
teacher, and by acting like a teacher I allow her to act like a cashier, even
though we are buildings apart, have different hours of work, and never see each
other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Even further, the
cashier and I act within a larger social structural moral order of people that
recognize a university as a legitimate bureaucracy, as a legitimate place to
act like something (a teacher or a cashier). Beyond this we act within a social
structural moral order of people that recognize having a job as a legitimate
thing, and that “teacher at university” and “cashier at university” are
legitimate jobs to have, legitimate ways of acting that are deserving of
receiving resources in the form of money; they are ways of acting that are
deserving of positive sanctions because they support and maintain a shared
perceived moral order.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have vested
interests in maintaining perceived realities. By acting like a teacher who gets
other people to act like students and cashiers I get other people to pay me. In
getting paid I can do some things and have some stuff that I perceive of as
being worth doing and having within my perceived reality and moral order. By my
acting like a teacher who gets others to act like students and cashiers I allow
others to act like, say, football coaches and provosts and administrative
assistants. Our cooperative actions are complimentary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is what
sociologists mean by “structure.” It is the cooperative and complimentary
repetitive patterns of behaviors that we all engage in that support and
maintain shared realities. The key empirical reality to remember is that all of
this moral order and reality maintenance is done at the interactional level. It
is by acting like a teacher in a specific classroom with specific students at a
specific time that I play my part in maintaining the order. I project my vision
of a desired reality upon that situation and act in certain ways in an attempt
to attain that reality, and so do the students in that classroom.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We have vested
interests in the maintenance of perceived moral order reality structures. Their
continued and successful existence means our continued and successful
existence. The alternative, suggests Berger, is chaos and the end of reality.
If things were not the way they are then things would cease to be. If things
cease to be, then we cease to be. We must do what we can to maintain the status
quo so that our perceived moral order reality structures can continue on. At
the very least we must continue to act within our perceived place because that
place has a part in maintaining reality as it is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Within our perceived
moral order reality structures is the belief in the interconnectedness of
everything. We think that not only do we as individuals have a place <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">sui generis</i> within the order, we think
that everyone else does too. We believe there is a “purpose” to it all and that
“proper” behaviors are self-evident in accordance with this purpose and
“improper” behaviors are self-evidently not in accordance with it. To this end
we come up with ideas like “nature” and “religion” and “science” to legitimate
our perceived moral order reality structures.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We say things like,
“It is human nature” to eat meat. The implication is that, within a shared
moral order reality structure, humans eat meat. It is as if we have no real
choice in the matter. There is a purpose to life and, in this example, eating
meat is part of it. Importantly for my argument here, using “human nature” to
explain eating meat legitimates meat eaters’ meat eating activities. “Of course
I eat meat. I am human, am I not?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My perceptions of
reality legitimate myself to my self. “Why do I act this way?” I ask myself.
“Because this is who I am. I have no choice.” Also, “I act this way because it
is the right way for someone like me to act.” We place moral evaluations on the
ways things are and the ways they could be and, therefore, judge our own
actions based on these evaluations. We believe ourselves to be good or bad
based on our perceptions of our actions as they align with our perceived moral
order reality structures. We also evaluate the actions of others based on our
interpretations of them within our perceived moral order reality structures. We
notice others doing things, imagine how those things fit within our perceived
moral order reality structures, and then judge them as good or bad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">The Maintenance of Moral Order<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We are born into
worlds that are populated by people who have ideas about reality. They are more
or less convinced that their ideas about reality are correct. Being newly born,
we have no ideas about reality. The people who inhabit our new world have
vested interests in convincing us that their versions of reality are the
correct ones.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our parents, for
instance, have a vested interest in convincing us that their form of parenting
– their rules, their arrangement of furniture in the house, their dinner time –
is correct. They have invested a lot of time and energy into accepting this way
of doing things as the right way and to suggest otherwise is to challenge their
moral compasses. Adherence to the norms and values of a situation is adherence
to a moral order. Our parents do things a certain way because they believe it
to be the right way. They openly criticize other ways of doing things as
immoral. Letting your children run around the neighborhood unsupervised, for
instance, is just wrong (from the perspective of parents who do not let their
children do this). To think otherwise is to suggest to one’s self and to others
that one’s way of doing things is the wrong way, that one’s vision of reality
is the wrong one, that one’s existence is wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The same notion holds
true for other segments of “society.” Americans believe their ways of educating
children (public education for all kids ages 5-18, for instance) is the right
way and, therefore, other ways of educating children are wrong because morally
righteous people educate their kids this way; it is the right thing to do and
good people do it this way. We believe our economic system, capitalism, is the
best not just practically, but morally, and that other systems, socialism for
instance, are morally wrong. We believe that our ways of choosing political
leaders, democratically, are right and other ways, theocratically maybe, are
wrong. We invest our identities in these morally held beliefs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our understandings of
our selves are wrapped up in our understandings about reality. As Berger (1967)
suggests, we project our internal/psychological beliefs out onto the world.
Included in these projected beliefs is a place for our selves. We fit our
selves into reality in the same way we fit everything else into it. The table
goes over there, the lamp goes on top of the table, I am a certain kind of
person. So in attaching moral beliefs upon one’s vision of reality one is
attaching the same beliefs upon one’s own existence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Thus we have vested
interests in actively maintaining our visions of reality because we have vested
interests in maintaining our visions of our selves. We actively negotiate our
selves in all situations. I am a teacher. I am teaching at the moment. I am
manipulating my students (and others) into seeing me as a teacher. I arrive at
class on time. I wear a button-down collared shirt and corduroys and dress
shoes. I keep my hair a certain way. I turn on the computer and write something
on the board. I open my notebook and go around the room saying “hello” to my
students. I do these things because it is what I believe teachers do and I
believe myself to be a teacher. I do these things to maintain a moral order. I
do these things to maintain a reality.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People do not go
through their lives thinking this way. That is, they do not usually arrange
their living rooms or wear corduroys because they are consciously trying to
maintain a moral reality. Rather, they just do things. In fact, people will
often challenge such sociological mumbo jumbo when directly confronted with it.
For instance, I shared some of what I have written with Pastor Gordon of The
Lutheran Church, and he commented on my suggestions that “religious people”
(“This needs careful definition & handling,” PG) “must act” as if they are
religious. He suggests that “If the ‘act’ is an act or simply to gain a notice
or nod from my peers I would be far less than what Jesus made me.” When I list
some things that religious people do in their religious performances (e.g.
knowing hymns, having well-worn Bibles), Pastor Gordon responds, “I personally
do not need to show myself in these activities for fulfillment. I need my lord
to show me (thru his word) how Christ himself is my fulfillment.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Gordon is
saying that he does not act for others. He is who he says he is. He acts for
his Lord. His Lord Jesus made him this way. Indeed, he says he needs for his
Lord to show <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">him</i>, rather than the
other way around. God shows Pastor Gordon how to act and Pastor Gordon follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
above taken into account, Pastor Gordon must believe in the Christ story for
his behaviors as a Pastor to make sense and for him, as a person, to have
dignity. Indeed, for the entirety of his life to make sense and have dignity he
must believe whole-heartedly in the Christ story. His entire life, from the
time he was in his teens, has been based on the Christ story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Weber (1978: 399<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">)</b>
suggests that with religion, as with just about everything else, we can only
understand people’s behaviors from a subjective perspective. To understand why
a person does what they do, one must understand why said person thinks they did
what they did. This is the thrust of my argument, people act based on how they
see the world. They see the world through thoughts that consist of symbols they
have picked-up through various types of participation within various types of
interactional situations. Since we have vested interests in having other people
act in ways that further our own subjective agendas, we attempt to convince
others to see the world in ways complimentary to our own subjective definitions
of situations. The world is a morality play, and we have a moral place within
it <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">as we see it</i>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What is an
alternative to all this perceived moral order reality structure? The absence of
order, or at least the absence of a moral order. There is no reason to be.
There is no particular reason to do anything in particular. There is no reason
to have a particular relationship with any particular person. There is no
reason to share, to love, to respect other’s property or life. No reason not to
kill or steal or plunder or destroy. No reason to support or help or build or
learn. In our thoughts we would see no reason for acting in any particular way.
We would, therefore, see no particular place for ourselves within any type of
preexisting social structure. We would just act, “animal” like. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The perceived
possibility of the lack of a moral order reality structure seems to be at the
root of our active maintenance of the same. We are afraid of a lack of
structure or, more accurately, we are afraid of the lack of something to
legitimate our own being. We are intensely interested in our own individual
existences having a purpose. We dearly want a reason for our being.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is this wanting a
reason for our being a social construction of its own? It is hard to separate
the chicken from the egg. Does our subjective projection of reality come before
our being socialized into having a particular projection of reality? This
cannot be answered. But it does seem to be true that we, people of many different
cultures, spend a lot of time convincing each other on an
interaction-by-interaction basis that a certain type of reality does indeed
exist and that we each have a particular place and reason for being within that
reality. Consequently, we tend to perceive that this reality is true and, on an
interaction-by-interaction basis, do our best to convince others that this is
so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Group
Identity<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Our
presentations of self as part of moral order reality structures are claims to
memberships in groups. Others’ acceptances or rejections of our presentations
signal their acceptance or rejection of our claimed group memberships. Groups,
like all objects, are things toward which we act (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Hewitt 2000<span style="color: black;">). They exist because we
perceive them as existing, and we act as if they exist. We make real decisions
about what to do, how to behave, and who to consider friends, based on the
groups we perceive to exist. The groups we want to be members of are the ones
we behave so as to stay members of.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
action orientation of a group, the agreed upon activities in which group
members engage, consists of its meaningful objects and, of course, the symbols
members use to refer to the objects (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Blumer
1969<span style="color: black;">). The more formal the group, the more well
defined are its objects. In less well defined groups objects are more
ambiguous, there are more objects that need to be defined through spontaneous
interactional negotiation and belief stories. Thus, members in less well
defined organizations spend more time negotiating the meanings of group objects
(rules and procedures) and less time pursuing stated group goals.<br />
<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The continued existence of a group
in a stable form depends upon the flow of negotiated behaviors by those who
perceive themselves as its members. We reaffirm our group memberships with
other members everyday and all the time. By behaving according to group
expectations we communicate our willingness to be group members. Our conformity
to group expectations and agreed upon rules and procedures establishes our
level of group membership. In more formal groups (the military, for instance)
we are more convincing in asserting our membership because the rational nature
of the rules and procedures validate our membership claims. In less formal
groups we must engage in intense interactional negotiations to ascertain
membership statuses, there is no formally written down evidence that backs-up
our membership claims.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When
situations become problematic, when groups’ definitional existences (and thus
people’s definitions of self) become ambiguous, group members insist on
orthodox behaviors from other members (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Dewey
1922<span style="color: black;">). When we do not know what to do, we refer back
to the rules and procedures of our organizations for guidance, and insist that
other members do as well. If group rules do not supply us with appropriate
behavioral responses, then we negotiate new behaviors, we work with other
members to bring definitional clarity back to the group situation.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Some
groups, our reference groups, provide our everyday actions and behaviors with
consistency because, no matter what the interactional situation, we look to
reference group objects, and role-take reference group people and roles, in
making our own roles and supporting our perceptions of reality (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Shibutani 1955<span style="color: black;">). When viewing
ourselves from the perspective of others, in knowing ourselves as members of
groups, our reference groups come to mind more often than other organizations.
Reference groups consistently influence our behavioral choices, whereas less
referenced group memberships influence our behaviors only in isolated
incidents.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reference
groups serve as social controls on our behaviors, they limit alternative types
of behavior for us (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Shibutani 1955<span style="color: black;">). When making decisions about behavioral choices in
isolated incidents, we must select between a myriad of choices, each espoused
by different others, different group members, and members of different groups.
We will most often choose the path, the behavior, we feel will fulfill our
membership in our reference groups, and least often choose the paths preferred
by members in our most isolated groups. Reference groups provide consistency of
behavior, and thus the reaffirmation of reality structures, because we will
make the same choice, with regards to similar situations, on a routine basis, choices
that reflect our view of members in our reference groups.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reference
groups, therefore, provide us with our most consistent motive talk (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Shibutani 1955<span style="color: black;">) and storytelling. We
use reference group motive talk in numerous situations, whether we are in the
midst of reference group actors or not. What motivates and influences us to
make the choices we do comes more often than not from our reference groups, not
from isolated groups.<br />
<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we are in the company of our
reference group members we feel “like ourselves.” We see objects, and see
others seeing objects, in a comfortable, seemingly natural way; in a way we
understand and enjoy. We share visions of reality with these others.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conclusion</span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #00b0f0; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">People
have the ability to transcend their subjectivity and adopt others views as
their own. We see the world from an impersonal perspective (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Zerubavel</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997). A group identity is a collection of people who adopt
each others’ views of reality as their own, they share identity belief stories.
If, as I argue, people perceive their constructed realities as moral orders and
their selves within those realities as moral selves, then they will do what
they can to convince others to share in their perceptions. People’s
pronouncements of religious beliefs are dramatic empirical examples of the
process by which we use belief stories to announce our understandings of moral
order reality structures. We announce we are one religion rather than another,
we read one good book rather than another, we observe certain holy days at the
expense of others, because we see our selves and our professed religion as
morally right.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In what follows I
detail the types of stories the religious people I observed tell in their
efforts to create and maintain their realities. I begin with a discussion of
belief stories on a programmatic level, literally analyzing the layout of a set
of Wisconsin Lutheran Church service programs. I then provide some ethnographic
data describing features of some of the services I attended, features that factored
into the stories the religious folks were telling. In the second half of the
book I outline some salient categories of religious belief stories told by the
people I observed. It is through these stories that they maintained their
realities, gave each other guidance on how to act within them, and supported
each other’s identities in a moral social structure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Chapter 3<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Formal
Belief Stories: The Case of Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod Services<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-top: 12.0pt; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I focus on the empirical
reality of religious belief stories for the rest of this book. First, in Chapter
3, via an examination of a few service programs, I describe what a typical
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) service looks like. In Chapter 4 I
provide snapshots of the goings-on of a variety of the religious services I
observed during my fieldwork. Finally, in the last seven chapters, I describe
some categories of belief stories that religious people use in defining their
religious realities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Wisconsin
Evangelical Lutheran Programs<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In this
chapter I compare some Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) service
programs. I compare The Lutheran Church (LC) “Eighth Sunday after Pentecost”
service with that of Prince of Peace Lutheran Church and School (PoP) in
Taylorsville, Utah. I attended the service at PoP and have the program from LC.
I also compare the LC “Eleventh Sunday after Pentecost” with the same service
program from Mt. Calvary Lutheran Church (MCLC) in Flagstaff, Arizona. As I
show, there is uniformity in the programs from the three churches, suggesting a
top-down, formal belief story, one that is tightly controlled by people at the
higher reaches of a status hierarchy. This top-down style ensures standardization
of stories across WELS churches, thus creating evenness of religious realities
among members from different parts of the country and world. Most of what
follows comes directly from my field notes, with some editing for clarity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Eighth Sunday after Pentecost 2016<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
first thing I notice has to do with the writing on the programs themselves. All
four programs write “The Eighth [or Eleventh as the case may be] Sunday after
Pentecost” in the same way. Block letters, though different fonts, all first
letters in capitals <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">except for</i>
“after,” which is lower-case on all four programs. The only difference in the
four versions of the Sunday after Pentecost is that PoP writes “The” in front
of the line, LC and MCLC do not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Why is
the printed program title interesting? Well, it suggests a formality in the
presentation of the services; a cultural code, if you will. All three of these
churches are WELS churches. As such, each one is under the “leadership” of the
larger centralized WELS bureaucracy. It is apparent that proclaiming the Sunday
in writing in this way is standard practice in the WELS cultural community.
Cultural codes, no matter how small or subtle, are parts of belief stories.
Whether or not anyone consciously notices that the Sunday after Pentecost is
written in this way, and it could be that I am the only one, it is still “the
way things are done” in this cultural niche of the world. It is part of the
story of “who we are” if, of course, we are a members of a WELS church or, if
not, it is part of the story of “who they are.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>All the
programs, including MCLC’s, are printed on 8 ½” x 13 ¾” paper, folded into
booklets that are anywhere from 7 (LC, both booklets) to 20 pages (PoP, “The
Eighth Sunday after Pentecost”). Pastor Gordon of LC said he uses Microsoft
Publisher to make his programs; it looks as if the others do, too. All programs
have on the front page, along with the number of the Sunday after Pentecost,
the date (“July 10, 2016” [Eighth Sunday] and “July 31, 2016” [Eleventh
Sunday]). The date on all four programs is placed immediately below the Sunday
after Pentecost line, centered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Along
with the Sunday after Pentecost line, and the date, PoP and LC give a title to
the week’s sermon. For the Eighth Sunday after Pentecost the LC program prints
the title “The Parable of the Good Samaritan”; PoP titles theirs “Christ’s Love
Moves Us to Love.” This title refers to the content of the day’s sermon. The
sermon for the Eighth Sunday after Pentecost for both churches is Old
Testament: Deuteronomy 24:17-22 & Colossians 1:1-14 and New Testament Luke
10:25-37. The PoP program titles the Old Testament readings as “Scripture
Reading” while LC calls them “FIRST” (or “SECOND”) “LESSON from HIS WORD.” That
PoP and LC are using the same Bible readings suggests they are on the same
place in the WELS Lectionary: “Lectionary: Three Year Series, Year C, Pentecost
8 (</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Wisconsin
Evangelical Lutheran Synod </span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">2014<span style="color: #212121;">).<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another
commonality that LC and PoP have on the first page is in the form of a picture
that illustrates the day’s New Testament teaching. Pastor Gordon told me that
he simply Google searches the name of the lecture for the week and there are
tons of images he can use for the cover. Indeed, when I Google “Parable of the
Good Samaritan” I come across a lot of images related to the story. The story
is of a man beaten and left to die by some brutes. Many travelers pass the
beaten man who lies near the path. But one man, from Samara, riding by on an
ass, stops and helps him out. The images on the front page of LC and PoP are
substantively identical. Each has a shirtless beaten man, eyes closed, being
cared for by a robed and turbaned man with oil or wine. An ass is a few feet
away, staring at the two men. A path, the path they had been traveling, hugs
the side of a cliff behind the men. There are two travelers on the path in each
image; travelers we assume have passed by the injured soul. In the far distance
we see the city of Jericho, to which both men were traveling and to which the
Samaritan took the injured man and paid for his stay in an inn. The only
difference in the images is in style. The LC program has a more “realistic”
drawing than the PoP image, which is a wood engraved-type image.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There
is a belief story being told across WELS churches, and part of that story has
to do with how services are presented to parishioners in the programs. On the
eighth Sunday after Pentecost, in the “Three Year Series, Year C, Pentecost 8”
Lectionary series, the Parable of the Good Samaritan takes center stage. The
people who create the programs for the day are presenting the service in much
the same way, with one notable difference: the title of the sermon. Other than
this, the first page of the programs is virtually identical. Reality structures
are being maintained through the telling of identical stories, on the same day,
in distinct churches. “We are Lutherans and we know this because we are enacting
the same stories at the same time.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>PoP
counts their title page as page 1 whereas LC does not start page 1 until the
first page after the title page. The first thing in both programs, after the
title page, on the first inside page, is the title of the church and a symbol
as the church’s logo. MCLC does not do this quite as PoP and LC do. They wait
until page 3 (second inside page) to post their logo. They do announce the name
of their church as the first order of business, but they do it in a more
conversational tone rather than professional, as do LC and PoP, and they wait
until the second inside page to introduce their logo.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next
for both PoP and LC is some general information about the church. LC manages to
do this in half a page, whereas PoP takes two pages. LC mentions “Rev. Gordon”
as the minister and states that LC is “a member of the Wisconsin Evangelical
Lutheran Synod (WELS).” It then provides web addresses for the WELS Synod and
for LC specifically. It lists the day and time of worship services and Bible
Studies. They then again mention it is the eighth Sunday after Pentecost, the
date, and the time of the worship service. They provide a “special greeting to
those joining us for the first time or who are joining us as our guests.” Then
a “Key thought for this Sunday.” That is the LC half-page general information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>PoP
starts with a “Welcome” which is similar to LC’s welcome in that it gives a
special welcome to guests. It directs readers to the “end of this worship
folder” for church contact information, which is in the form of phone numbers
for the ministers rather than email addresses as LC did. Next PoP provides a
section of “INFORMATION FOR OUR GUESTS” where they explain how to use the
program – “The parts marked <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">M</b> are
spoken or sung by the minister.” – a paragraph explaining there is a “cry area”
outside, with speakers, for parents with a “restless child,” information about
the restrooms, an invitation to sign the “Friendship Register” later in the service,
and an invitation to join the congregation for “coffee and conversation” after
the service. This section, consisting of five paragraphs, takes up
three-quarters of a page and takes us to the end of PoP’s page 2, the first
inside page.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>PoP’s
page 3 is equivalent to LC’s three-line “Key thought for this Sunday,” only it
takes up the entirety of a page. PoP provides segments introducing both the Old
Testament readings – “TODAY: CHRIST’S LOVE MOVES US TO LOVE” – and the day’s
Gospel readings – “CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL: THE LETTER TO THE COLOSSIANS.” These
are a paragraph each. A third section – “THE SEASON OF THE PENTECOST” –
discusses, well, the meaning of the Pentecost. This section takes two
paragraphs and brings us to the end of the PoP Introduction and readies us for
the service to come.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Both
programs begin with an “Opening Hymn.” LC simply lists the name of the hymn and
what number it is in the hymn book. PoP introduces the hymn in a couple
sentences and provides musical notation for it in the program. Therefore, PoP’s
hymn takes up 1 1/3 pages whereas LC’s takes up one line. The two churches have
different hymns. Pastor Gordon told me he picks the day’s hymns, I assume the
PoP pastor does the same, the result being different hymns for different
churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
next step in both the PoP and LC programs is a “GREETING,” which is practically
the same in each:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">LC:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">“P: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love
of God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">C: And also with you.</span></b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PoP:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">“<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Minister</b>:
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of
the Holy Spirit be with you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Congregation: And also with you.</span></b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Other than a comma instead of an “and,” and a “God
the Father” instead of simply “God,” and “<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Minister</b>”
instead of “P,” the greetings are identical. Not only are the lines the same,
the minister’s lines are plain in both while the congregations response is in
bold.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">There is formality here that suggests a top-down
enforced belief story. WELS churches are following a set liturgy which, in
turn, provides a way to formally worship the Lord. Pastors see this more
clearly than congregants. Pastors have gone to college, they have ministered at
numerous churches where they have seen and participated in this systemic
liturgical belief presentation. They have been indoctrinated into the formal
liturgy belief system. There are presenting a moral reality in a formal
fashion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Congregants, on the other hand, may only be
familiar with the church they attend, they may not pay much attention to the
similarities between church services. On the other hand congregants, when
traveling, probably seek out WELS churches to attend. If they have attended
enough “other” churches, they would pick up on the liturgical similarities.
Indeed, being familiar with a formal liturgical belief presentation across
churches is part of what it means to classify oneself as belonging to one
religion or another, as believing in one reality over another.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Next in both programs comes the confession of
sins. LC writes “Confession of Sins,” PoP writes “Our Confession of Sins.” This
begins on page 1 in the LC program, going on to page 2, and on page 4 in the
PoP program. The organization of the sections is similar. The pastor or
minister invites parishioners to confess their sins to God, then the
parishioners read a confession from the program. The written messages in the two
programs are a bit different, but they have the same point: We are sinners and
deserve your punishment, please forgive us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next,
“OUR LORD’S ABSOLUTION,” written the same in both programs. Note: LC includes,
in small font off to the side of the “Confession of Sins” and “Our Lord’s
Absolution” sections, annotations. For instance, to the side of “Confession of
Sins” is the following: “God’s grace allows us to directly approach Him for
forgiveness. We do so directly at this point in our worship.” PoP does not
offer annotations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Our
Lord’s Absolution” section is explained by LC as “For the sake of his Son,
Jesus, the Lord has forgiven all of our sins! It is pastor’s joy to proclaim
our full pardon in Christ.” After confessing that we are sinful creatures and deserving
of God’s punishment, we are pardoned. It is the same in both programs, though
it is written differently. They both end with “I forgive you in the name of the
Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Congregants: “Amen.” The pastor,
according to each program, though written a bit differently, is a “called
servant of Christ” (PoP) and thus has the authority here in this service to
forgive congregants of their sins.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is
a beautiful part of the Christian belief story. We are sinful by nature. We
cannot do good in God’s eyes. We throw ourselves at His mercy, as Christians,
pleading for forgiveness knowing He does not have to give it to us, though He
has promised it. Then, the pastor, with the authority of Christ Himself,
forgives us. This is attractive. It is social psychologically healing. We are
all bad. We feel bad about all sorts of things we do during any day or week.
But if we are a sincere Christian we know, with God’s authority, our pastor
will forgive us each and every week. It takes very little on our part for this
to happen. Simply be sincere in our confessions. Be sincere in our belief in
the story and we can be confident in our absolution. The moral order of the
WELS universe rests on this belief.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next in
the programs are similar but different segments. LC has a section titled
“RESPONSE TO HIS MERCY” where the congregation sings verse six of Hymn #376
from the hymnal (“Jesus, Your Blood and Righteousness”):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Jesus, be worshipped endlessly!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Your boundless mercy has for me,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">For me and all your hands have made,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">An everlasting ransom paid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>PoP, on
the other hand, has a section here called “LORD, HAVE MERCY” where the pastor
says a line, and the congregation responds with “Lord, have mercy” or “Christ,
have mercy” or, on the fourth and last round, “Amen.” There is not a lot in
common between the two segments here, other than they both have “mercy” in
their titles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>PoP
next has something completely missing from the LC program, a “SONG OF PRAISE”
titled “O Lord, Our Lord.” In the two previous sections at both churches
congregants confessed their sins and were absolved by God. In these mercy and
praise sections the congregants are thanking God for His mercy, thanking Him
for absolving them of their sins. Because He does not have to do this, He does
so voluntarily because He loves us. That is the pattern: confession,
absolution, praise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After
the praise sections in both programs comes the “PRAYER OF THE DAY.” (We are now
on page 2 of the LC program and page 9 of the PoP program.) Both prayers have
two sentences. The first sentence and a half is different for the two, but the
last half sentence is similar with God/Jesus living and reigning with the
Father and the Holy Spirit, the last nine words being the exact same: “and the
Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever.” The “mother ship” (as Pastor Gordon
jokingly refers to the higher-ups in the WELS hierarchy) leaves some discretion
to individual pastors and congregations in the first part of the prayer, but
the end is institutionalized. A check with the July 31, 2016 programs from LC
and MCLC confirm this suspicion; unique opening prayer lines, standardized last
nine words.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Both
PoP and LC’s “Prayer of the Day” segments end with the congregation saying
“Amen.” The LC program simply has:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">C: Amen.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PoP, on the other hand, has amen played out musically
which encourages the congregation to sing the word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
next six sections of each program are virtually identical, only differences in
the titles and explanations, as well as the substance of the hymn and sermon,
separate the two. First comes a reading from the Hebrew Bible (Deuteronomy
24:17-22), then a New Testament reading (Colossians 1:1-14), then the “Alleluia
Verse,” then a gospel lesson, a “HYMN OF THE DAY” and a “SERMON.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>LC
titles the scripture readings “FIRST LESSON from HIS WORD” and “SECOND LESSON
from HIS WORD” whereas PoP calls these sections “SCRIPTURE READING” and
“SCRIPTURE READING.” They both, on the same lines as the titles of the
sections, provide the chapter and verse for the readings. They both then
provide a summary of the readings. The summaries are different in the two
programs, suggesting that pastors write their own. LC’s summaries are short,
once sentence each, whereas PoP’s summaries are longer, two and three sentence
paragraphs. Then each program provides the written scripture in the program so
that congregants can read along with the pastor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next in
the LC and PoP programs is, in LC, the “VERSE OF THE DAY,” and in PoP, the
“ALLELUIA VERSE.” The gist of the section in both programs is the “Alleluia”
verse, printed exactly the same in each program, including music notation. As
mentioned, they have different titles. In addition, they have different
introductions to the verse. PoP, right-justified on the same line as the title,
has printed “John 20:31.” The verse suggests that by reading John’s gospel one
will believe that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye
might have life through his name.” The point is that believing in Jesus gives
one life; believing in Jesus is a key component in the WELS moral order reality
structure. So, too, the PoP introduction to the “ALLELUIA VERSE” suggests that
“through these words God gives us faith in Jesus.” These lines are congruent. LC’s
introduction does not suggest faith in Jesus as much as fealty to Him: “The Word
is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.”
Obeying is similar to faith, but LC’s introduction to the section puts the
parishioner in a more subservient role than does the PoP one. Again, after the
introduction to the section, both programs provide the same Alleluia verse, to
be sung by the congregation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief
stories are told by individuals who are members of groups. Members more or less
align their stories with those of the group as a whole. Some members have more
influence and authority than others in the crafting of stories. In the
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, liturgy is pronounced from on high and
has gathered through the centuries. This creates rigidity to the service
stories WELS members tell and the realities to which members adhere. The
programs described above give evidence to this. They are similar in structure
and content. To call oneself a member of this church is to proclaim one’s
belief in the stories told in the programs and at the services.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Chapter 4<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: center 3.25in left 383.25pt;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Religious
Services as Places Where Belief Stories are Enacted and Observed<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 269.25pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Services are a place
where religious belief stories play out. In this chapter I provide detailed
observations of some religious services I attended, annotated with how these
represent stories about reality and identity. I describe formality of dress and
service liturgy, contents of service programs, structure of physical space,
political nature of services, forms of praise and worship, modern versus
traditional services, familiarity of congregants with each other, music and
hymns, and the diversity of parishioners, as places where belief stories are
enacted and can be observed.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Services<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Episcopal Church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Episcopal Church
has three services during the week: Wednesday afternoon, Saturday evening, and
Sunday morning. Wednesday Eucharist happens in a small chapel in the complex.
The service I attended consisted of only women except for me and Father Tom. It
was a short service with few ritual formalities save for communion. The
Saturday evening Holy Eucharist was in the church sanctuary and had all the
ritual of a full service, though congregants and celebrant dressed casual, some
wearing shorts and t-shirts. The Sunday Holy Eucharist was a full service as
well, mimicking Saturday’s but with congregants in their “Sunday best” and
celebrants in formal church attire.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">June 10, 2015. Wednesday Eucharist.</b> Because Wednesday services draw
a small crowd it is held in the small chapel, rather than in the sanctuary.
Here is a description of the Wednesday service direct from the EC webpage:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;">We gather in the beauty of the chapel for a mid-week worship service.
Using readings from the new “Holy Women, Holy Men” (formerly, “Lesser Feasts
and Fasts”), the service deepens our knowledge and understanding of the
communion of Saints who have gone before us, as we learn how their life stories
influence our own. This accessible, informal service provides a refreshing of
spirit for many, to stay centered in God’s grace during the week. Usually 15-25
attend this service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">I gather from looking at the EC webpage that the three Eucharist
services have different themes. The Sunday service, according the web page, is
a “traditional service, done well.” It includes choirs, songs, and a formal
sermon. The Saturday service is described as contemplative, done in
candlelight, with an informal gathering afterwards.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In today’s sermon, Father
Tom held true to the description of Wednesday services as deepening our
knowledge of communion saints by discussing Ephrem of Edessa in Syria. Ephrem
lived during “the all important 4<span style="mso-text-raise: 2.5pt; position: relative; top: -2.5pt;">th</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>century”
(Father Tom’s words). He ended up “retiring to a cave,” eating flax and seed,
drinking nothing but water, his clothes full of holes. But he was not a hermit.
He went into town and preached.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The chapel is about 625 square feet in size</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn9;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">. There were around twenty chairs set up, with a small table in
the front for the Father to speak at. A large cross (for the size of the room)
on the wall behind the speaking table; nails in the cross where Jesus would be
affixed. Candles representing the light of God were burning. The table was draped
in a green cloth. The Father wore a white robe with green sashes coming down
each side (the colors of the sashes of Episcopal teachers change with the
changing of the religious seasons). On each chair were two pieces of paper: (1)
“Prayers for Healing Body and Soul,” (2) “PRAISE & THANKSGIVING for
answered prayers. . ./PRAY FOR THE REPOSE of the souls of . . .”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Somewhere around the
middle of the service (which lasted about 25 minutes total) the two papers
mentioned above were put to use. The “Prayers for Healing Body and Soul”
pamphlet has, inside, a “Litany of Healing.” According to the hand-out, the
Celebrant (Father Tom) introduced the “Litany of Healing” with a bidding: “Let
us name before God those for whom we offer our prayers.” At this point we, “the
People” in attendance, went around the room reading the names of people on the
prayer list (“PRAISE AND THANKSGIVING for answered prayers. . .”). There are
roughly 70 names on the list. Each of us, in turn, said four or five of the
names out loud. The list is divided into three sections. First is the “CURRENT
PRAYER LIST.” This has about 24 people on it. Next is the “THOSE IN ACTIVE
MILITARY SERVICE” list; it has only one person on it. Finally is the “LONG-TERM
PRAYER LIST” which expressly states that these people “Will be mentioned in the
Healing Prayers of the People at weekly Wed Eucharist. Please continue to
remember these people in your prayers during the week.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Once we were done reading the names of the people on the list, Father
Tom led us in the “Litany of Healing” prayer in which he would read a line and
then we, the People, would offer a response. All of this is written down in the
“Prayers for Healing Body and Soul” pamphlet. The prayer is one in which we
first recognized God the Trinity, then ask Him in a number of different ways to
heal people in different types of situations (sick, depressed, people in
difficult relationships), and to help those who work in the healing
professions, to help the dead have holy deaths, and to help the nation and the
world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Wednesday Holy
Eucharist that I attended at the EC was attended by elderly women only. I and Father
Tom were the only men there, and the ladies were all in their late-sixties and,
mostly, beyond. I will tack this up to the day and time of the service:
Wednesday at noon. Younger folks are mostly working at this time on this day of
the week. One lady in the front, who seemed like the oldest of the bunch, did
not do most of the standing and sitting with us; my assumption being that she
physically was not able, though she did go up for communion. One of the ladies
had a name tag that identified her as a worker or volunteer within the church.
She made sure to introduce me to every lady in attendance; she knew all their
names. The ladies engaged in small talk while waiting for Father Tom. They
talked about what would be for lunch after the service (“chicken salad”). They
talked about how the Wednesday Holy Eucharist is “feast or famine” as far as
attendance. They asked me about my attending. Was I a visitor or member? It was
obvious that they knew this was my first time in attendance. They, especially
the lady with the name tag, were kindly figuring out who I was and what my
purpose was for attending.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was greeted
immediately upon entering the chapel. I said I had talked with Carol the day
before, so the lady with the tag went out to the connecting corridor and found
Carol for me. Carol and I exchanged pleasantries and then Carol left back into
the hallway; it was obvious that Carol had stuff to do. Indeed, Carol sat in a
seat to Father Tom’s left during the service. She, as well as the lady with the
name tag, helped Father Tom prepare and administer the sacrament.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Once Carol left I was
told that I could sit wherever I liked. Remember, it is a small room, not a lot
of space to hide. I sat in the middle of the second row (there were only three
rows), two seats away from one of the helpful ladies. At different points in
the service one of the ladies gave me instructions as to what to do. For
instance, when it came to me in the reading of the names for prayer, I looked
at one of the ladies and she nodded that, yes, it was my turn to read some
names. Shortly before communion was taken, one of the ladies told me I could
take it or not, it was totally up to me. At one point one of the ladies told me
a page to turn to in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Book of Common
Prayers</i>. She was wrong about the page, but she was trying to help me out.
At the end of the service the ladies invited me to go to lunch with them. They
ate at the church’s soup kitchen. I regret that I chickened out on the chicken
salad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">June 13 and 14, 2015. Saturday and Sunday at EC. </b>I attended the EC
Saturday Holy Eucharist and Sunday Holy Eucharist. The church provides a
hardcopy program for each of these services. The Saturday service, according to
the program, is “3 PENTACOST – B” and the Sunday service is “3
PENTACOST/TRINITY – YEAR B.” Both services were in the sanctuary of the church
rather than the chapel. The sanctuary is a much bigger room than the chapel,
with formal pews rather than fold out chairs. The sanctuary has a more
elaborate pulpit, still with a cross on the wall behind it (many congregants,
upon entering the aisle between the pews, and facing the pulpit and cross,
would genuflect to the cross). There is a stained glass window in the
sanctuary, a series of fairly large images of the passion of Christ across the
walls on the right and the left. The pulpit is elevated on a stage with
kneeling boards in front of it (the congregants, at both services, would get
out of their seats and move to and surround the pulpit to receive communion).
There is a lot of space behind the pews in the sanctuary where, both Saturday
and Sunday, there are portable tables set-up (on Saturday the congregants had
pizza after the service, on Sunday there was coffee, lemonade, and various
coffee cakes shared by the attendees; they sit at the tables and/or mingle in
the back portion of the sanctuary at this time). There is a window that
separates a kitchen attached to the sanctuary where, on Sunday, coffee and
lemonade are made available. The pews have retractable kneeling benches
attached to them and pockets on the backs on the pews in front of them with
copies of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Book of Common Prayer</i>
and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Hymnal 1982</i> as well as a
supplement to the hymnal (in the Sunday service we sang hymns from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Hymnal 1982</i>, but on Saturday we did
not). In the front of the sanctuary, behind the pulpit where everyone could
see, were the numbers of the hymns we were to sing so we could turn to the hymn
number in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Hymnal 1982</i> and sing
along. Some of the singers were loud and proud, others were subdued.<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Sunday service was
more formal than Saturday’s, which was more formal than Wednesday’s. On Sunday,
for instance, there was a greeter immediately as one entered the courtyard,
this being a good twenty yards in front of the doors to the sanctuary. She gave
sincere and convincing hugs and greetings to the three or four people who
entered the courtyard immediately before me. She talked with them and asked how
they were, then gave them big hugs. She asked me if, maybe, I usually attend
Wednesday’s or Saturday’s or if I was a visitor. I told her I was just
visiting, she welcomed me, telling me “we give hugs here,” and we embraced. The
Saturday service did not include the courtyard greeter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There were a number
of folks dressed in “formal” church garb at the Sunday service, they engaged in
various and sundry duties throughout the service. For instance, a couple
different times one of the assisting clergy carried a ten-foot tall cross on a
staff down the aisle between the pews, from pulpit toward the back. Other
clergy and vestries helped prepare and serve communion. Again, all of these
helpers wore formal garb during the Sunday services; such garb was absent at
the Saturday service, not that the helpers were absent, just the garb.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Coming into the
Saturday service there was a man (Craig, according to the program) playing the
piano. He also played it a couple more times during the service. The musical
accompaniment for Sunday, however, was an organ played, according to the
program, by Carla. The EC webpage suggests that for much of the year there is a
choir as well, but they take a break in the summer months. I do not remember
any actual singing in the Saturday service, but we sang at least four hymns
during the Sunday Eucharist.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The content of the
two weekend services were similar. They both opened with “THE WORD OF GOD,”
“THE COLLECT FOR PURITY,” “THE GLORIA,” and “THE COLLECT OF THE DAY.” Numbers
1, 2, and 4, of the above have the Celebrant, Father Tom, speaking a line, and
the People (the congregation), answering him. “THE GLORIA” was recited by the
congregation as a whole. I get the feeling that these first four segments of
the service are prescribed by the Episcopal Church beyond the EC; Episcopal
churches across the land/world say these same collects in the same order. Next
came readings from the Old and New Testaments. Instead of having someone from
the congregation read them, as was done on Wednesday, a predetermined Reader
came to the front and read them. The readings were the same (1<span style="mso-text-raise: 2.5pt; position: relative; top: -2.5pt;">st</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Samuel 15:34 – 16:13; Psalm 20; and Mark 4:26
– 34) for both Saturday and Sunday. Then, both Saturday and Sunday, Father Tom
taught us about these readings (the temple is here, on Earth in our physical
bodies, not in some far off spirit place). This was the most creative part, for
Father Tom, of the service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Fellowship<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A unique
characteristic of The Fellowship (TF), at least among the services I attended
in Washington County, was the praise and worship segment of their service. For
an hour or more congregants and celebrants alike were taken over by the Holy
Spirit. There was crying, speaking in tongues, fainting, moaning, and the
laying on of hands during this time. Many participants seemed to truly be “out
of their minds” for awhile. Nothing remotely similar to this occurred at other
services and I can only assume this praise and worship was an attractive
feature, a pull, for members of the church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">July 5, 2015. </b></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Fellowship had a distinct feeling of
conservative style patriotism. One congregant, a man who sat in the front row
of the service, was wearing a red, white, and blue shirt with an eagle on it.
He was active in his behaviors during the service, raising his hands, palms
out, closing his eyes, getting into it. There </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">were
flag-style bandanas around the service room, on the stage, around the church.
The service began with a video that paid homage to veterans of war. The
preacher asked for anyone in the congregation who was a veteran to stand, and
we gave them a round of applause.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A main reason this
patriotism occurred on this particular Sunday at the TF was because it was July
5, the first service following Independence Day. It is interesting, however,
that the priest’s lesson on that day and, so he said, for a few weeks to come,
was on the end times of Revelation and that on the Wednesday church meeting
they would be discussing things one should have at one’s disposal in
preparation for the end times. I got a feeling that the TF leaned toward a
conservative cultural outlook, that they are actively pro-military and
untrusting of the federal government.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The TF was the most
ethnically and racially diverse of the churches I visited. There were a number
of Latino members (a fifth or so of the entirety), and an African American
family of four or five were there. One of the helper/band members sang a song
in Spanish (translated on the screens for non-Spanish speakers).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The TF also seemed to
have more of a lower/working-class congregation than the other churches, though
I have a hard time writing how I came to this conclusion. I suppose their dress
was a little more less than casual than the other churches. There were a few
people in the TF congregation that looked as if they came in direct from a hard
night’s partying.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The height of the TF
prayer session was cacophonic. There was quiet prerecorded piano music playing
over the speakers, two or three people were in the front being prayed over,
hands laid upon. Pastor George introduced one woman as having recently lost her
husband and she was now a single mom. Earlier in the service, while a song was
playing about falling to one’s knees in the presence of the Lord, this woman
actually did fall to her knees. She was at the service on her own,
sitting/standing/singing in the very front row. At one point, while singing,
she fell to her knees, hands reaching upward, her face looking upward though
her eyes were closed. She sang.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was this same
woman who was introduced as having lost her husband; this was after Pastor
George “stood in for” a woman in the hospital in Las Vegas; as in the former
instance, so too with this woman. Pastor George came up to her, as did Elder
Lee and a number of women from the congregation. They prayed for her. As with
so many other instances during this service, all of the people around her were
praying individually, but aloud. The woman being prayed for began to cry,
loudly. She was wailing, her body convulsing. She fell to her knees and the
prayers followed her down.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The men would only
physically lay their hands upon men and women only upon women. When not
physically laying hands upon someone, the prayer will place their hands close
to, as if, but not actually, touching.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>During an early song
at TF one of the back-up singers moved from stage left, where the singers were
stationed, to stage right. She began to “sign” the song for the audience. The
thing is I do not think she was using any standard sign language.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn10;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> I think she was signing in “tongues.”</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor George saves
his Bible sermon for the end of the service at TF, and this part only lasts
half an hour of the hour and forty-five minutes service. Ten minutes or so are
spent with greetings and morning business. An hour and fifteen minutes are
spent in the prayer session described above. The praying is the key component
of the TF service; it is what attracts people to it. The Bible sermon is
secondary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>During the height of
the prayer session the room is ecstatic, like the middle of a good rock show or
a party where people are on psychedelics. There are behaviors going on that are
frowned upon when exhibited in everyday life. To lose control of one’s body,
mind, and language in this way is contrary to the self-control expected of
adult people. Pastor George’s role is to be both member and conductor of the
prayer session at TF. He begins by getting people into the mental state to
engage their spirit selves. Last Sunday he began the prayer session by standing
in for the hospitalized woman in Las Vegas. Well, he starts even before this.
In between the first few songs, he prays quietly, but loud enough for the
microphone to catch and, thus, for the congregants to hear him, “Praise Jesus.
Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.” Quietly. But he is setting the mood.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The sign language
woman began her thing early on during one of the first songs. Her presentation
was very much public. She was standing behind Pastor George, who was playing
the guitar and singing, signing in tongues. At the same time the guy to my left
was praying and crying. Some in the crowd presented their spirit selves before
the “official” prayer session began.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Once the prayer
session reaches a point of self-sustainability, once Pastor George can stop
stoking the spirit fires, he becomes one of the participants. He stays quite
for ten minutes with one of the people being prayed for and then, seemingly
satisfied their needs are taken care of, moves to the next person for an equal
amount of time. Sometimes he moves away from any spirit circle and does the
quiet prayer thing before moving to another circle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There is activity
throughout the room. Some congregants sit in their chairs, heads down in
personal prayer. Others move around the room from congregant to congregant,
hugging, talking. Some pray out loud. The lady three or four chairs down from
me, with a young girl (her daughter) would be quiet for a few minutes and then
break into fairly audible prayer of unintelligible words interspersed with
“Jesus,” her hands outstretched toward the stage and pulpit. Pastor George’s
wife, sitting directly in front of me, with three teenage boys (one being her
son) behaved much the same as the woman just discussed: “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.”
Some people simply watched. At its peak, it is a sublime event.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At some point Pastor
George decides to wind down the spirit praying. He mentioned that we were on
God’s time, not man’s. While on the surface this seemed like an open and
transparent statement, letting others know that we would keep spirit praying
until everyone was satisfied, it was also a subtle suggestion that the praying
has a finite amount of time. At just the moment when it seemed like the spirit
prayer session was to end, Pastor George’s wife came forward from her seat in
the middle of the room and walked up to Pastor George. She whispered in his
ear. He did not seem to hear her too well, so he leaned forward and she leaned
inward, whispering more. The fact that his wife came up at this point, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">after</i> his statement about time, affirmed
that we could go on for more time, and we did. Who more could we trust in the
room than the preacher’s wife.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Community Church</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most religious
services occur in distinct physical spaces.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
Baptist Church (BC) had the smallest building of any of the churches I visited,
but at least it was a building made to be a church. The Community Church (CC)
had more space than BC, but they inhabit a building made for generic purposes,
any old business might rent it out. The Catholic churches, both in Tucson and
St. George, have vast complexes compared to other churches I went to. The
Catholic Church in St. George, for instance, has a thrift store attached to it,
a three-story business center, and one or two other buildings. It is,
literally, a complex that takes up half a square block. The same is true with
St. Francis Catholic Church in Tucson, but it takes up a couple of square
blocks due to its much larger congregation. The Fellowship (TF) houses itself
in an old restaurant. It has a lot of space, but the building was not made for
a church. The Bible Church (TBC) has a decent amount of space in their own
building. It was much smaller until a couple years ago when they added on a
large chapel/auditorium. They come close to having a complex. They take up
three-quarters of a square block in a suburban neighborhood in Washington City.
They also increased the size of their parking lot a number of years ago. Living
Christ Lutheran Church in Flagstaff was housed in its own church-specific
building. It was of medium size compared to other churches I attended.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most all the churches
were much more than just chapels. Some have coffee break rooms, nurseries, and
teen hang-outs. Most have office space for the pastor and helpers to work. The
Episcopal Church (EC) has a working soup kitchen, a large chapel, and a small
chapel. Pastor Morty holds Bible Study in a smaller, more intimate section of BC.
No church is simply a chapel, all are multipurpose establishments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">July 19, 2015. </b>Common to most churches, there were a number of
greeters at The Community Church. There were two greeters at the front door, I
shook their hands and said “good morning.” As with many churches I attended,
there is a foyer that separates the auditorium, where the service takes place,
from the outside. CC is in an office building, it does not look as if it were
built to be a church. They have their offices through a door next to the
entrance of the church proper, offices and church being in the same building.
The members of the church seem pretty excited that next week they will be
officially breaking ground on a new, designed for church, building.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn11" name="_ftnref11" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn11;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> Pastor Scott mentioned this many times during his sermon. He
really wants as many congregants as possible to attend next Sunday’s ground
breaking, he even invited the mayor!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Outside the church
there is a banner strung between two trees that announces the name of the
church and the times of the services. The church webpage suggests there are
other meetings that happen, such as a men’s Bible Study. The first speaker
today, the one who gives announcements after the second or third song of the
morning, mentioned that the church is putting together a “1929 Initial Interest
Meeting” (the announcements are also listed on the back page of the day’s
program). The “1929” is a college age group common to many churches that meets
separately from the regular Sunday services. The announcer mentioned this new
group would be meeting next Sunday after the service, if anyone is interested.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Inside the foyer
there are tables and shelves with CC related material. A number of people are
milling about (it is five minutes before the service starts). There are greeters
who hand out programs in front of each of the two entrances to the service
auditorium. The auditorium is off to one side of the foyer. Off to another is a
welcome room complete with a desk staffed by a couple of helpers (two today,
one last week, all of them women; the front door helpers today were one man and
one woman; the entrance to the auditorium helpers were both men). There is some
coffee in the welcome room and a regular flow of people filling their cups. Off
of the welcome room is a room with a split top-bottom door, the top open,
staffed by a helper. A sign on the door announced it was for kids 5-15. Another
room, this one off of the foyer, announced itself as a preschool age room.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most of the bible
churches had children’s rooms and, sometimes, teenager rooms, places where
parents could drop off their kids while the adult service took place. There was
an understanding that the general service is not a place for kids. They are
seen as either not mature enough to get it, or there is a certain type of
presentation of self expected in general service that kids cannot maintain.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The CC service starts
with the worship team playing a song. The lead guitarist says, “Good morning.
Please stand and sing with us.” The band had two electric guitars, bass,
keyboards, drums, and two singers (both women, neither of whom played an
instrument). One of this week’s singers was different from last week, as was
the bassist. Last week there was a singer who sang lead on all the songs, she
was not here this week. This week the two women took turns singing lead and
harmony. The band played a song, we were then asked to say “hello” to each
other (greetings) while they played another, the offering happened while they
played a third. There were five songs before announcements and then Pastor
Scott gave his sermon. A song or two was then played at the end of the sermon,
after Pastor Scott left the stage.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Baptist Church<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Baptist Church (BC),
like The Episcopal Church, has a number of services during the week, each one a
bit different than the other. For instance, BC’s Sunday evening service is more
informal than its Sunday morning service, and the Wednesday evening Bible study
is less formal still. Furthermore, BC has a homey feel. It has existed for 30
or more years with the same pastor, it is small in size, and has a group of
congregants who enjoy each other’s company. This homey feeling fosters a
personal type of belief storytelling, one immersed in the personal relations of
its members.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">August 16, 2015. </b>The Baptist Church falls between contemporary Bible
churches and traditional institutional churches. They have hymn books, for
instance, which are placed in the backs of pews in front of where congregants
sit. There are King James Bibles in the pews for everyone to read along with
the Pastor. Pews, hymn books, and King James Bibles, are characteristics of
more traditional, institutional churches. Bible churches (TBC, TF, CC) have
live worship teams playing “contemporary” pop/rock Christian songs the lyrics
to which are broadcast on screens in the front of the church for all
congregants to read and sing along. The institutional churches (EC, St.
Francis, LCSC, BC) have organ/piano players playing traditional songs (or no
accompaniment at all) that congregants sing along to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>To start the service,
Pastor Morty asks if there are any announcements. Different congregants raise
their hands and make them. One woman offered that Walmart was eliminating an
entire shift, of which she was a part. Workers were given the choice of leaving
the company or changing to a less attractive graveyard shift. Congregant Laura
raised her hand and said that her husband, congregant Larry, had made it
successfully through his surgery. They had spent much time during the last week
at the hospital for various complications of the surgery, but things, “Praise
God,” are looking better. However, they have a granddaughter in Illinois who
has been diagnosed with cancer, and she is pregnant. Most of the announcements
are of this sort, asking congregants to pray for the easing of rough times,
although they never come right out and ask for the prayer. Laura did thank the
congregants for the prayers they had in relation to Larry’s illness. Pastor
Morty said, in the first example, he does not usually pray for corporations,
but in this case he will pray for Walmart to make the right decisions in
relation to their workers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After the “prayer
announcements,” Pastor Morty announced some upcoming events in the church:
Bible Study on Wednesday, quarterly business meeting next Saturday. Both Sunday
mornings I have attended BC Pastor Morty is waiting on his wife, who plays the
piano, to arrive. She shows up a few minutes late to both services. She rides
in an electric wheelchair.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After the
announcements, and his wife is in place, Pastor Morty calls a hymn number out
and, moments later, she plays and the congregants sing, Pastor Morty leading
the way. Sometimes he tells us to only sing versus 1,2, and 4. Sometimes he
shouts out, at the very end of one verse, “verse 3,” indicating to us that we
should skip verse 2 and go straight to number 3. We sing three hymns and then Pastor
Morty tells us that after verse 1 of the next hymn we are to greet one another.
Now, at BC (and here is a difference between BC and other institutional
churches) we do not say “peace” to one another, we simply greet each other with
a “good morning” and “nice to see you.” This takes awhile. Indeed, this morning
Pastor Morty was ready to resume the singing but the congregants were busy
greeting one another and he had to wait. At both the beginning of the morning’s
service and in trying to end the greeting session, Pastor Morty could not get
congregants to stop interacting with each other. It seems this is one of the
joys of going to church for the BC folks, saying “hello” to friends they have
not seen all week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most of the male
congregants at BC wear ties, probably 12 of the 15 in attendance on Sunday
morning, less at the evening service. Pastor Morty told me, when I asked about
the difference between Sunday morning and evening services, that the evenings
are less formal. Pastor Morty did wear a tie for both the morning and evening
services, though I do not know if it was the same one, and it was catawampus
for the evening service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Morty told me
there was less singing at the evening service, but (although I did not count
the songs) it did not seem that way to me. For the morning service there is a
program that lists all the songs we will sing, and Pastor Morty sticks to this.
There was no program for the evening service and, after two or three songs, the
congregation started shouting out what songs they wanted to sing. First the
pianist suggested one or two songs and Pastor Morty decided we would sing them
both. Then Pastor Morty thought out loud, “Why don’t we sing one more,” and
someone in the congregation shouted out a song and Pastor Morty agreed. In the
end, we sang as much at the evening service as we did in the morning, it was
just a more spontaneous decision on the part of Pastor Morty and the
congregation to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For the morning
service Pastor Morty stands behind a permanent podium on a stage in the front
of the congregation, he brought a portable podium up front for the evening
service. There were fewer of us at the evening service than in the morning: 10
adults at the former, 25 at the latter. Both services included numerous
children who were “dismissed” after the singing. They went to a back room with
some of the adults who, I presume, supervised them. The evening service was more
intimate than the morning one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After the
announcements and singing in the evening service, Pastor Morty opened up a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Fun Bible Quiz Book</i>. He asked trivia
questions of the congregation and we answered. A kid (maybe 10 years old)
behind me (one child of, probably, five, who was there with his parents)
answered a number of the questions correctly, more than anyone else in the
room. His face was full of concentration; he enjoyed this game. He was
obviously into the Bible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The family mentioned
in the above paragraph came to both services on Sunday. The father was an usher
at the morning service, his wife made sure to say a warmhearted “hello” to
everyone during the greeting period. The father went back with the children
during the evening service while the wife stayed for the service. Laura and
Larry made it to both Sunday services as well. Pastor Morty’s wife, as the
pianist, made it to both, along with her daughter and her daughter’s
infant/toddler child.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There was no greeting
period for the evening service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It is worth going
back to the friendship exhibited at BC. I entered the chapel for the morning
service about six minutes before the start of the service. The congregants were
circulating and jovially talking with one another. They were pretty loud. They
hugged and asked about each other’s medical conditions and discussed the state
of politics. Pastor Morty, as he had trouble getting control after the greeting
period, had trouble getting the congregants to calm down to start the service.
One or two people walked in after the service started and would say “hello” to
others as they found their seats. The same happened at the evening service, but
there were so few congregants that Pastor Morty was able to wait them out as
they talked. The evening service took an informal beginning as Pastor Morty
stood at the podium for awhile waiting for the chat to die down and then, as a
matter of course, started into the service. At the morning service Pastor Morty
sits on a bench behind the podium for five minutes prior to the service. He
then comes to the podium and waits, only kind of patiently, for the congregants
to get seated and quiet down (he is also waiting for his wife the pianist to
arrive).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The BC building
itself is kind of run down. The lot is dusty. There is a marquee out front that
announces the name of the church and its service times. The parking lot is
small (no need for a larger one) and cracked from time. The windows have
stained glass coatings or stickers on them that are wearing/peeling off. The
general feeling is that the building is pretty old and has not seen a lot of
repairs. Pastor Morty mentioned in his Sunday evening service a story about a
Dixie College basketball coach who used to come to the church maybe 15-20 years
ago, the point being that Pastor Morty and the physical church have been here
for a couple decades at least.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Many, though
certainly not all, of the congregants at BC seemed to be in their
late-seventies, eighties, and nineties. There were a few young families, and a
few middle-aged folks. I estimate that 60% of the congregants were elderly, 25%
were between 25-55, 10% were children under 10 (at church because they came
with their parents). BC had the congregation with the oldest average age of any
church I attended save the Wednesday The Episcopal Church (EC) service, and EC
had probably the second oldest congregation overall.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">August 19, 2015. </b>The Wednesday evening Bible Study at BC was held
in a room that looked like a public study located towards the back of the
church building. There were maps of biblically significant regions of the world
past and present on the walls. There was a rectangular foldout card table in
the middle of the room and a number of chairs spread around facing the podium,
some comfy, others not. A piano was in the southeast corner and another foldout
card table with coffee and treats also on the east wall. On the west wall was a
stool behind a podium standing on a small (6”) stage. There were bookshelves
with books.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Overall, the BC
church building has a dog-eared, used, time-worn, old but comfortable family
kind of feel, like a grandma’s house. The atmosphere of the church is
family-like. Everyone knows each other by name. Of the fifteen or so people in
the Bible Study room, at least seven of us had been to both Sunday services as
well. Laura and Larry were there. The husband and wife with the numerous kids
were there. This time, as I came in through the chapel, the wife was in the
chapel foyer talking with some other women. They welcomed me and pointed me in
the direction of the Bible Study. The wife did not come into the study, only
the husband and his older boy who was a wiz at the bible trivia game on Sunday
evening. Actually, the couple’s younger son “entertained” (he used that term)
us while we waited for Pastor Morty to come lead the study. The young boy
introduced himself as the pastor, sat on the chair, and with a little prodding
from his father who was sitting at the card table in the middle of the room (he
and the older son being the only attendants to do so) started singing a
memorization song about the books in the Bible. He first sang one naming the
books of the New Testament, and then one of the Old Testament. This family
seems to be very church-centered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>While 15 or so of us
were in Bible Study with Pastor Morty, an equal number of people, including a
fair number of kids, were playing, running, and chatting in the hallways and
byways of the building. Some people brought kids and other people, wives
mainly, watched the kids while we had Bible Study. For instance, the wife in
the family of a lot of kids stayed in the hallways with the kids while the
husband and the oldest son attended Bible Study. There was another couple who
sat together near the door and had kids (I do not know how many) playing in the
hallways. At one point the mother got up and checked on them, occasionally the
father (who was right next to the door) would look out and wave at them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As soon as the study
was over, Pastor Morty walked out to what is, I assume, his office and took
hold of and held an infant who, I assume, is his grandchild. His wife, the
pianist in the wheelchair, started talking to me immediately as I left the
study room and walked the ten feet to Pastor Morty’s office. She welcomed me
back to the church. I told her I missed her piano playing at the study group
(there were no songs at Bible Study). She went on to tell me how she has never
had lessons and that the playing is good for her hands (which seem to be
arthritic or otherwise “deformed.”). The tattoo father, the one who sat next to
the door and occasionally looked out at his kids, was standing at Pastor Morty’s
door and chatting with the pastor and his wife. As I got in my car to leave a
woman cheerfully smiled and waved at me; this woman had been to at least one of
the Sunday sessions and at the Bible Study. Her smile was sincere, like you
might give to a family member.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The study itself
consisted of Pastor Morty leading us through sections of the New Testament:
John and, mostly, Hebrews. The focus of his lecture was about the blind faith
that characters in the Old Testament had to have. They knew nothing of Christ
(He hadn’t happened yet) but searched, traveled, journeyed, and lived their
lives on the promise that something like Him would happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Calvary
Chapel<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">August 9, 2015. </b>Calvary Chapel (CaC) is physically the largest and
“nicest” chapel I attended. It had a large entry way, a coffee stand (with a
barista), a bookstore room, a hallway with numerous classrooms to the sides and
upstairs, and a large parking lot. It did not have pews, but instead
comfortable folding chairs, pockets on the back. One of the Calvary Chapel
greeters insisted that I take a copy of the Bible (free of charge). CaC has a
large hall. There were more people at the service than any service I have
attended (and they have two per Sunday). Even with all the people in attendance
at CaC, the pastor picked me out as new to the congregation. He said “hello”
after I had made my way into the chapel. The overall feeling at Calvary Chapel
was of a grand happening, as opposed to the homey, family feeling of BC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Part of the CaC
service consisted of sending off a family to serve a mission in North Africa.
The pastor’s son, his son’s wife, their two young children (and child-to-be),
and who I assume is a nanny, got on stage with Pastor Morty who told us of the
type of mission they would be serving (planting churches), how dangerous it
might be (“Christians are persecuted in some of the places they will be.”), and
how we as a congregation can support them. There are cards at the church where
congregants can pledge regular prayer, organizational activities, gift boxes,
and, of course, money. They were leaving in two days. Pastor Rick anointed each
member of the missionary team on the forehead with oil: “Father, Son, Holy
Spirit.” In sending this family on a faraway and dangerous mission, the church
tells the story that Christians take risks in order to spread the Word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A salient feature of
services for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and, as I will
show, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, is the feeling of routine exhibited by the
congregants. There is talking, mingling, and kids roaming the aisles of the
hall. Part of the story seems to be that this is a normal, routine part of our
lives. It is not something set apart from everyday living, it <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">is</i> everyday living.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">September 6, 2015. </b>I went to the Main Street, Washington, Utah,
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Sacrament Meeting assuming that a
9:00am session of the LDS Church on a Sunday is the equivalent of a 9:00am (or
other morning time) service of any other “Christian” church. It had more a
feeling of a meeting than a church service. The room was loud. Many of the
attendees were families, parents and children of all ages. Therefore there was
a lot of noise, mainly in the form of infants, toddlers, and preschoolers
crying or talking, and parents not being overly concerned with this, in ways I
did not witness in other churches. Most of the congregants behaved as if the
noise was natural and welcomed. No one ever gave parents a dirty look for
having loud children. The speakers at the meeting went through with their talks
never missing a beat for the loudness in the room. They spoke through a
microphone so that all could hear, and the noise continued unabated. At one
point a child (maybe 5 years old) made it all the way from the back of the room
to the front and started to plunk on the piano while a woman was giving her
testimony; the woman looked down at the child and smiled while never missing a
beat in her testimony; it was as if the child was absolutely within her rights
to do this. The mother of the child slowly made her way from the back of the
chapel to the front, picked up the child, and made her way back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The noise at the LDS
sacrament meeting made for a different atmosphere than in other services I
attended. It felt more like a community gathering than a church service. The
congregants were comfortable to the point of nonchalance. This was a normal
place for them to be, a regular place, like a community picnic, and everyone
liked it this way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I arrived just before
nine. As with all the other churches I have attended there was a greeter in the
foyer between the outside doors and the chapel. He shook my hand and gave me a
program, just like every other church. Also, just like every other church, I
told the greeter that this was my first time to this church, that this was my
first time to any LDS service. He welcomed me and introduced me to another man
who happened to be standing nearby. As I entered and sat at a pew (there were
pews, with fold-out chairs in the back to handle overflow and late coming
attendees) an elderly woman introduced herself to me and I told her my story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As with other
churches, one of the first things people asked was if I was visiting; it was
obvious to the congregants that I was a stranger. The tone of their inquiry
suggested that they were wondering if I was a Church member just passing
through or visiting a friend in the neighborhood, rather than a non-member
person passing through and choosing a church at random to attend. They asked if
I was new to the neighborhood. There seemed to be an assumption that I was a
member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The LDS Sacrament
Meeting was run entirely by lay folk. A small choir sang hymns as the
congregation filed in. We then sang a few hymns, a conductor (woman) standing
in front helping us along (I did not see this conductor role at any other
church). Then a member of the congregation (man) came forward and gave an
opening benediction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">May 29, 2016. </b>Both Church of Latter-Day
Saints services I attended included programs that provide a schedule of the
meeting for congregants to follow along. They also provide a list of the
important characters who directly participate in the service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
September 6 service was the first Sunday of the month and, like all similar
Sundays, it was a Testimony meeting at which members of the congregation are
encouraged to go to the front of the room and give their testimony about their
relationships with Jesus. The program for the meeting has the title “Importance
of Receiving a Personal Testimony.” It has a picture of Joseph Smith in the
woods speaking to Christ and God the Father, and a lengthy quote from Robert D.
Hales (a member of the Quorum of 12) about the importance of having a personal
testimony.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>On page
2 of the September 6 program is a list of the important actors in the service
(Presiding, Conducting, Chorister, and Organist) at the top, under the name of
the church and the date. There is then listed “Welcome and Announcements,” the
“Opening Hymn” and its number in the hymn book, the “Invocation” and the name
of the person giving it, “Ward Business,” the “Sacrament Hymn” and number, the
“Sacrament Service” given by the “Aaronic Priesthood,” the “Bearing of
Testimonies” (which took up the bulk of the meeting), the “Closing Hymn” and
number, and the “Benediction” and who would give it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>On page
three of the program is a “Calendar and Announcements” including “Relief
Society,” “Primary Activities,” “Ward and Stake,” “Ward Choir Practice,” and
“Weekly Birthday Greetings.” The fourth and final page asks us to “Please Pray
for our Missionaries” and lists four such people, lists the “Ward Leadership”
including the Bishop, Bishop’s Office, First Counselor, Executive Secretary,
High Priest Group Leader, Elders Quorum President, Ward Mission Leader, and the
people filling these positions and their phone numbers. Page four also lists
the “Auxiliaries” including Relief Society President, Young Men’s President,
Young Women’s President, Primary President, Sunday School President, and the
names of the people filling these positions. It also lists the Building
Scheduler and, finally, the names of two Sister Missionaries and a Senior
Missionary Couple.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>From a
dramaturgical perspective, the programs of the LDS Sacrament Meetings offer a
script for congregants to follow. The Bishop in the May 29 meeting acted as a
director, reading from the program to begin the meeting, then coming up between
each act to announce what would happen next. The quote on the front page
provided a narrative that any regular (lifetime) attendee would understand:
today’s meeting was about the priesthood. The woman who gave the opening invocation
reminded us of the narrative, and both speakers spoke along the priesthood
narrative as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The Religious Science Institute<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Religious Science
Institute (RSI) represents a hybrid of existing religious stories while not
being connected to any one tradition. Structurally their services look like
those of mainstream religions but the content and theology borrows from
Christianity, Islam, and Native American totemic spirituality, while adding
parts of their own. They offer a novel experience reminiscent of familiar
pieces.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">December 6 and December 13, 2015. </b>The Religious Science Institute
is a non-traditional (i.e. non-Christian, Jewish, Muslim, LDS, Buddhist, Hindu)
type religion. Indeed, they seem to be a mix and mish-mash of these. Reverend
Joan and the RSI do believe in God, but they have interesting ways of referring
to It. First, she does refer to God as “It.” She does not use masculine or
feminine pronouns for It. She also says “God who is referred to by many names.”
The implication is that there is only one God (monotheism) and that all the
different monotheistic religions are worshipping this God, just in different
ways.<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Before the RSI
service is a meditation session. The Institute is located in a store front of
office buildings in St. George. It looks to me that the other store fronts in
the strip mall are also occupied by religious-type organizations. The main room
does not feel like it was built for religious services. It has a number of
chairs arranged in a semi-circle (or U) around a podium. There is a video
screen to the right of the podium. The room is nicely decorated with plants, a
bookshelf. The seats are pretty standard semi-portable metal chairs with padded
seats and backs. The two restrooms have signs on them proclaiming “Whichever”
rather than “Men” and “Women.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most of the music
during the service is played from Reverend Joan’s smart phone plugged into a
speaker system. It is easy listening popular spiritual music. During the
meditation session Reverend Joan’s husband, Ricardo, played a Native American
flute. This is the only time I witnessed live music at the RSI.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are no direct
signs of Christianity at the RSI: no crosses, no images of Jesus, no colors, no
stained glass. There are words around the room like “peace” and “spiritual.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The message of the RSI
was focused on the idea of One. There is one god and It is everywhere at once.
It is within us and outside of us. It is non-dualistic. We are not separate
from God, we are God and God is us. We are the consciousness of God. We are Its
eyes and ears.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Muslims of St. George<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Muslims
of St. George (MSG) is an example of a global belief story enacted in a local
context with a diverse array of congregants. Participants in MSG services are
from many places and speak many different languages. MSG belief stories are
told in the one language common to them all, English.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">November 20, 2015 and June 27, 2016. </b>The
Muslims of St. George meet every Friday at 1:30 in the Dixie State University
(DSU) North Instructional Building (NIB). I arrived eight minutes before the
service was to begin. Both times the NIB building was pretty darned empty. The
second time a young man walked by and said “hi.” He seemed to be there for the
service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The MSG
are a diverse and international group. A number of them are students at DSU,
from Nigeria. But there are others: a doctor from Bangladesh, two people from
Pakistan. On the whole, there do not seem to be many MSG congregants born and
raised in the U.S. There is one man, the only noticeably white person at the
service other than me, who seems to be from the United States, though I have
not spoke to him and have not verified this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Maybe
of more interest than what the attendees at the MSG looked like and where they
may or may not be from is that the services are conducted in English. It was
the one language common to them all. This said, they do parts of the service in
Arabic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Eventually
a man and his three kids (two boys and a girl) go into the room and turn on the
light. I still wait a minute or two before entering. For a couple minutes we
are the only ones in the room. Then others start to trickle in. These early
birds brought their own prayer rugs to kneel on. At some point another guy
comes in who has a bag of prayer rugs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
prayer rugs are set in rows; a row in front for the men, and one in back for
the women. One rug is put in front for the service leader. I was told there is
nothing really special about who runs the service. He (both times a man) must
be an experienced and knowledgeable Muslim is about it. They do decide ahead of
time so that the leader can prepare a talk.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
leader’s talk is not unlike the type of talk heard at an Episcopalian,
Lutheran, or Catholic service. Members engage in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">salah/</i>prayer (in Arabic and in almost total silence) then the
imam/leader gives a sermon. At the 2016 MSG service the sermon was about the
significance of fasting during Ramadan. According to the imam it is a way of
reminding oneself that self control is essential to being a Muslim. The
Christian denominations I mentioned also follow liturgy and then, in the middle
of the service, allow the preacher to give a sermon, followed by more liturgy.
The MSG is similar.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At some
point, and I do not know what triggered it, one of the men in the congregation
(not the leader) began a call to prayer. He stood and “sang” some things in
Arabic, a number of men and women stood on their rugs and did some ritual
motions (touch their faces, bend down and put their hands on their knees, got
on their knees and kneeled, faces to the floor, stood back up). This went on
for a minute or two. Then they all got on their knees and started doing some
very quiet praying, breathing words rather than actually speaking. They would put
their faces to the floor, sit back up, look back and forth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Church of
Christ, Scientist</span></b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief stories at the
Church of Christ, Scientist (CCS) do not allow for embellishment on the part of
service leaders. They have a set liturgy and stick to it. Attendance at the St.
George CCS was low and, between the time I attended and the writing of this
piece, the Church abandoned the building and stopped offering services.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">November 13, 2015 and</b> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">January
10, 2016. </b>I went to two Church of Christ, Scientist – Christian Science
Society – services within a couple months. Both were at the church in St.
George. The church itself is housed in a modest, skinny, old house in St.
George’s downtown area; it is probably no more than 1000 square feet in size.
They have a small parking lot and a sign outside declaring who they are and
that the public is welcome. “Christian Science Society” (CCS) is written in
large black letters on the building, facing the street. The building itself is
all white. There is a covered plastic pocket attached to the outside of the
church that offers “Free Literature” to anyone interested.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are two doors
to the church, one of which is the official entrance. Maggie (Second Reader)
greets me by opening the door as I arrive. She and Becky (First Reader) run the
church. There are two rooms inside: The service room and the reading room. The
service room consists of 14 or 15 rows of comfortable “church chairs,” evenly
distributed on two sides of a small aisle. There is an organ covered by a
blanket with flowers and books on top of it; I would be surprised if the organ
has been played recently. The paint in the service room (and reading room, for
that matter) is all white. The chairs are an off bluish brown. There is a nice
looking wooden podium behind which Becky and Maggie read for the congregation;
it is ornate and looks solid and expensive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The first time I
attended CSS there were a total of five attendees, including the sister
Readers. This last Sunday there were seven of us. I dare say I was the youngest
attendee save, maybe, Becky. In the church chair pockets there were Christian
Science hymn books and a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Christian
Science Quarterly</i>. The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Quarterly </i>contains
all the lessons for all the CSS churches, I suppose, in the world for three
months. The Readers follow this word-for-word in conducting their service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As with many
churches, there is a “marquee” in the room that lists which hymns we will sing
for the day. Becky, the Reader, welcomes us according to the welcome required
of her by church dictate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Readers at CSS do not
stray from the readings. The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Quarterly</i>,
for instance, tells which Biblical passage to read and which <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Science and Health</i> correlatives to read.
The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Guidebook</i> tells how a service is
to proceed. The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Quarterly</i> provides
the “call and response” readings for the Readers and congregation. There is no
straying from the readings. There is no interpretation of the readings by
Readers or congregants. The service is entirely scripted from beginning to end.
There is no greeting session within the service. The Readers never even really
tell us the service is over. No “goodbyes” or “go be fruitful.” Becky simply
gives a little smile, nods and, since we are following along in our <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Quarterly</i>, or we know the routine, we
know it is over.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For the hymns, Becky
stands and tells the congregants which hymn we will sing. She then reads the
lyrics to the hymn, then sits while Maggie starts the song (on a CD player I
think, but it may be an MP3 player). The opening refrain plays, then we all
stand and sing. There were three, maybe four hymns sprinkled throughout each
service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Church of
Christ</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Consistent with
national data (Pew Research Center 2021), evangelical congregations in
Washington County have a conservative political bent which plays out in their
services. I have already shown what this looks like in The Fellowship, here it
is again in the Church of Christ.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">February 7, 2016. </b>The Church of Christ owns its own building on the
west side of St. George. I got the strong feeling that the folks in attendance
at the church were in line with the perspective on government held by the
occupiers of the Oregon preserve.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn12" name="_ftnref12" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn12;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> The wish for religious freedom from government was mentioned a
number of times in the lesson and prayers. Leaders asked, in the prayers, that
we continue to be a nation that allows its citizens the freedom to practice
religion in any way they choose. The underlying theme is only through God’s
Grace can we keep government from infringing upon freedom of religion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Jehovah’s
Witnesses<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-top: 12.0pt; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Jehovah’s Witness
(JW) services have some similarities with those of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-Day Saints. As mentioned, there is an air of familiarity among
members in both services. Ironically, also in both services, members dress more
formally than in any other congregations I observed. The JWs, however, had a
stricter liturgy than the LDS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">March 20, 2016. </b>Jehovah’s Witnesses’ dress was formal. Men wore
full suits, coats and all, ties, and fancy shoes. Women were in dresses. The
service I attended was the Riverside Congregation (there is also a Red Cliffs
Congregation that meets in the same Kingdom Hall in the college area of St.
George). The inside of the hall was set-up much like other traditional Christian
churches. There was a pew at the front on a slightly elevated stage. A chair
and table sat on the stage on either side of the pew. There were then rows of
standard “church chairs” arranged in a standard U-shape facing the pew</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn13" name="_ftnref13" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn13;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As opposed to most of
the other services I attended where older women are the ones to make me feel
“at home,” the men were the aggressors at the JW service. One would engage me
in conversation and then, most naturally, lead me to another who would, in
turn, lead me to another; this was all before the service began. At one point I
was introduced to a retired university scientist. He proclaimed that he was a
scientist who “believes.” “Do you believe, Matthew?” he asked.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was lead to the
back of the room where a bar was manned by a Witness (at one point I was asked
by someone if I was a “Witness”). He gave me a Bible and a book of JW songs so
I could follow along with the service. First he asked if I would be following
along on my phone or tablet. When I said “no,” he gave me a copy of the Bible.
He asked if I had a Bible of my own. I said I did, a KJV. He said this version,
the JW version, will be much easier to follow, not so many “big old words.”
After the service one of the Witnesses showed me the apps, and they are
impressive. The JW Books app includes numerous versions of the Bible in many
languages and, with easy to use buttons, one can quickly get to whatever book
and chapter the sermon leader asks the congregants to follow along with. I was
left to fumble through the pages of my hard copy Bible and, sometimes, did not
find the verse in time. It was impressive to see how many people in the
congregation followed along with their smart phones and tablets as opposed to
the few of us who had hard copy bibles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The service began with
a song. The songs were on recordings that we sang along with. I did not know
any of the hymns. A director of sorts then came to the pulpit and told us how
the service would be conducted. First there was a guest speaker from Cedar
City. I honestly do not remember of what he spoke, but he would ask us to
follow along with him as he read passages from the Bible. The bible from which
he read was oversized. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next, the part of the
service that was unique to the JW as opposed to other Christian faiths, was a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Watchtower</i> discussion. The unique part
was how it was conducted. A young man, a Witness, who was now sitting in a
chair on the stage to the director’s right, could come to a microphone and read
a paragraph from the day’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Watchtower</i>
reading. There was an entire reading, four or five pages, designated for the
week. The director would say a word or two about the reading and then
congregants were invited to comment on the paragraph. The director would ask if
there were any comments and then wait until someone raised their hand
(sometimes this was immediate, other times we wait 20 or 30 seconds). He would
call on them, usually by name (“Sister Smith”) and an usher would give the
congregant a microphone and they would say what they thought about the
paragraph, how it applied to their lives. Men and women of all ages were
allowed to comment, the youngest was no more than 5 years old. Many of the
congregants had underlined parts of their <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Watchtowers</i>
and written notes in the margins; they were assigned the week’s readings
beforehand and were prepared. The director would allow for some number of
comments and then move on to the next paragraph. I got the impression that he
would allow a certain amount of time for each section without concern for how
many comments there were. This went on for about an hour and then the service
was over (there were two or three more hymns thrown in and a brief section of
“Announcements”).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The comment portion
of this particular service was about how to tell the anointed ones among us
and, importantly, how to tell if you are one of the anointed (“If you have to
ask, you are not.”) Apparently God chose 144,000 people, in the history of all
people, as the anointed. These people ascend to Heaven to be with God while the
rest of humanity, the great crowd, will exist for eternity in paradise on
earth. One lady claimed that her uncle was one of the anointed, he told her
that “He just knew, without a doubt, that he was.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 387.0pt 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The JW service
reminded me a bit of an LDS Sacrament Meeting I went to. Both were attended by
full families (no childcare separate from the service). This resulted in lots
of child noises and parents moving around with their kids during the service.
Both services seemed well-orchestrated; a certain amount of time for this and a
certain amount of time for that. Also, and I see this in the Catholic service,
too, a certain number of congregants seem bored, as if the services are routine
week after week. Also, the formal dress in the two (JW, LDS) are similar; most
other congregations I went to were casual wear (though the Baptists like to
dress up, too).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">The Lutheran
Church</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
Lutheran Church (LC), a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) church,
presents a longstanding and traditional religious service. They fall within
what can be referred to as mainstream Protestant Christianity. The rituals and
stories they enact go back centuries. They are the stories from which more
recent religious movements derive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">June 17 – August 13, 2016. </b>The Lutheran
Church (LC) is on the second floor of a modern-looking office building in St.
George that houses a number of other businesses. On the first floor of the
building is a day spa that is not open on Sunday. There is an elevator and
stairs to the second floor. Upstairs there is not only LC, but a yoga class
that happens at the same time as the church service. LC closes their door for
the service. We hear nothing from the yoga folk and I imagine they hear nothing
from us.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Chairs
in LC are arranged in typical Christian church fashion, a U-shape around the
pew from which Pastor Gordon preaches. They are not typical church chairs in
that they do not have pockets holding Bibles and Hymn books in them on their
backs. They are portable chairs, however, that get placed back up against the
walls when the service is over. The room is well-lit with east and west facing
windows. There are a number of restaurant or coffee house type tables with
chairs in the room. These tables are pushed to the sides for the service, but
placed center stage around the room after the service, once the chairs are put
back against the wall. There is a billiard table in the room. Against the south
wall is a table with symbolic-type stuff on it. Three banners hang above the
table. The one on the left is a picture of Christ’s tomb with the stone
entrance pushed aside; written on it is something to the effect that “He has
risen.” The banner on the right states “It is done.” The center banner is raised
a little higher than the other two, which are on the same level as each other.
To the right as one walks in is what looks like a bar, complete with barstools.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
overall physical atmosphere of the LC space is of a coffee house or restaurant,
a place where one can hang out. Indeed, LC advertises in their monthly and
weekly bulletins that they have a “Morning Refreshment Lounge” Tuesday through
Friday mornings from 8:30-11:30. I get the sense that this is when Pastor
Gordon gets much of his preparation and office work done, but it also supports
the feeling of LC as a hangout.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A small
table sits front and center as one walks in the door to LC. On the table is a
“Voluntary Offering” plate (no collection is taken during services), a stack of
hymn books, and the day’s program. Another couple of tables against the north
wall, to the left as one walks in the door, hold a host of literature,
including Bibles, videos and monthly bulletins.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Bible Study at LC is more organized than studies at other
churches. Pastor Gordon created a course. He has PowerPoint slides and a binder
that follows along with the presentation that each student receives. He puts
all of this together himself. My first impression was that the WELS
administration put it together for him, kind of like how book publishers put
together presentations that go along with their books for college instructors
to use in their classrooms. But Pastor Gordon assures me that he puts the
classes together himself. The class Pastor Gordon is currently teaching is
called “Course 1: Essential Old Testament Accounts.” It is organized around a
number of “Parts”: Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham. It takes Pastor Gordon a number
of weeks (one class per week) to get through the entire course.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Course
1 is part of a larger ongoing Thursday night study called “THEIR STORIES: our
story: An examination of Biblical Christianity via Bible History.” Course 1 delves
into the books of Moses. Pastor Gordon was also offering a Wednesday night
course called “Digging Deeper” for a month or so. The course did not last very
long, and I am not sure why. Maybe it is because LC congregants are not ready
for courses on Wednesdays and Thursdays, it might be too much for them. He says
he might bring the Digging Deeper course back on Thursday nights once Course 1
of “Their Stories: Our Stories is done.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At one LC
Bible Study Pastor Gordon introduced me to congregant Jim. Jim’s home church is
the Desert Ridge Baptist Church (DRBC). Somehow Jim came in contact with Pastor
Gordon. Jim really likes the LC Bible Study classes and wants to start coming
to LC for Sunday worship, but he does not feel he can do this right away. I get
the feeling that for Jim at least, changing churches is a big deal. He is not
simply going to stop showing-up at DRBC cold turkey. He wants a transition of
some kind. It was Pastor Gordon that told me Jim attends DRBC. When asked, Jim
told me that he goes to a church “on the other side of town.” He was not
specific and I did not press.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Jim
told me he likes the overall atmosphere at LC better than other churches. He
said he thinks going to church should be an experience all to itself. It should
not mimic outside secular activities. Too many other churches, he said, have
brought in contemporary activities that feel less like church and more like a
social activity. Church should be a spiritual sanctuary separate from the
world.</span><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">At one service, Pastor Gordon served the Lord’s
Supper for the first time “publicly.” He told me that he has done it privately
a few times since opening the church but, since he does not (or did not) have a
liquor license, he could not do it publicly.</span><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I did
not do the Lord’s Supper because Pastor Gordon would not have wanted me to. He
and I have talked about this during Morning Refreshments, and he reiterated it
to the congregation as a whole today. He says that one should not take the
Lord’s Supper if one does not fully understand what it is about. It is a most
sacred activity and should not be taken lightly. He told them that if they feel
they truly understand what the Lord’s Supper is about then they are welcome to
take it. If you want to learn what it is about, he continued, then tell him and
he will make sure you come to understand it. He has an entire “class” devoted
to it. One who wishes to take Lord’s Supper at LC would first take this class
with Pastor Gordon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Those
of us who could not confidently say we understood the meaning/importance of
Lord’s Supper were still invited up front where the wine and bread were
offered, but instead of taking Lord’s Supper Pastor Gordon blessed us by
putting his hand on our shoulder and saying a blessing. This is what I did. He
administered Lord’s Supper to the two people on my right and, when he got to
me, put his hand on my shoulder and blessed me. A family that sat behind me
today did not go up for Lord’s Supper or a blessing. I noticed the husband
asking the wife if she wanted to go up with the children, she said she could
not or was not supposed to. I do remember a girl of 5 or 6 going up with my
group, she must have been with that same family, and Pastor Gordon blessed her.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In
comparing his church to Pastor Gordon’s, Steve, a pastor at a WELS church in
Pennsylvania talked about the Biblical sophistication of the congregations. His
congregation is more Biblically sophisticated. “I can throw out passages from
the Bible and they are right on top of it. I don’t need to explain.” But Pastor
Gordon’s congregation is not so. “And Pastor Gordon does a good job of helping
the congregants through Biblical passages,” said Steve, insinuating that since LC
is such a new church its congregants probably are not in tune with how a WELS
preacher understands the Bible. Thus, Pastor Gordon needs to help them through
it. This shows how ministers need to read their audiences and preach based on
numerous variables. In this case the variable is how well the congregants
understand the Bible. Indeed, the last part of the sermon today was Pastor
Gordon calling on congregants to read their Bibles. “Know your Bible,” he said,
“and then share what you know when the opportunity arises.”</span><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I
arrive at an LC service five minutes before it starts. Shelly, Pastor Gordon’s
wife, is playing Christian hymns on the piano. There are a few people sitting
in the u-shaped rows of chairs, a husband and wife I recognize from Bible
Study, a family of four (two small children) I do not recognize. A few more
people are standing, mingling. Pastor Gordon talks with a young man and woman
(boyfriend and girlfriend), then moves on to someone else. He recognizes me as
I walk through the door. He nods in my direction, welcoming me to the service.
Eventually he gets around to shaking my hand and saying “hello.” Small talk. He
tries to make the rounds in the few minutes before the service starts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
church itself occupies the southern third of the second floor of an upscale
business office building on Bluff Street in St. George. I park in the west side
parking lot. A sandwich board sits in front of the door announcing that LC is
in session. I walk in the west door, past the day spa on the north side of the
first floor, up the stairs on the east side, and onto the second floor. A hair
salon is on the north side (behind me as I walk south down the hall to LC), a
yoga studio on the right (west). Two sets of double-glass doors must be passed
through to enter LC. They are both propped open until the services begin. Pastor
Gordon starts the service right on time. We all take a seat quickly once he
does this. Pastor Gordon is in a suit and tie. Shelly stays at the electric
piano. Some of us sit alone, others with families or partners. Pastor Gordon’s
sons and daughters (those in town, anyway) sit to his left. There are 14 of us
here, including Pastor Gordon and his family.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span></b>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief stories are
constant and omnipresent. They happen in all interactional situations. We are
always in the act of convincing others and self of what we believe to be real.
It follows, then, that religious belief stories take many forms and happen in
many places. In this chapter I described the events of some of the religious
services I observed. The point of all the services was the same. They were rhetorical
reality performances. They happened in different places and consisted of
different rituals, but their goals were the same: believe in these things and
act in these ways.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Chapter 5<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Belief
Stories and the Social Construction of Reality<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief stories are socially constructed and interactional. They
are created by people acting as if a particular reality exists. In this chapter
I discuss the nuances of belief stories and their importance for people’s
perspectives of self, others, and situations. Along the way I detail some
religious belief stories as examples of their socially constructed nature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief
Stories<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A pastor on the
Christian Satellite Network (CSN) told the New Testament story about Jesus
being in a house with Martha and Mary (Luke 10: 38-42). Martha was working in
the kitchen, Mary was at Jesus’ feet. Who was in the best place? Mary was. It
was not that Martha was not doing good work, she was. It is that Mary was doing
better work. Mary was having a relationship with Jesus. The pastor then related
this story to our own everyday lives. We are often so busy that we do not make
time to develop personal relationships with God and Jesus. It is not that we
are not doing good works, we usually are. But the key to salvation is having personal
relationships with Jesus. Satan loves it when we spend inordinate amounts of
time on good works because they distance us from God. We need to make time for
Jesus. We need to take time out of our busy days for Jesus, otherwise we are
just going through the motions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the movie <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">God’s Not Dead</i> (Cronk 2014) a believing
young man attends a traditional university where the academically liberal
philosophy professor challenges his students, on the first day of class, to
write “God is Dead” on a piece of paper. The Christian student refuses to do
so. The professor presents himself as an atheist throughout the movie.
Eventually the student manages to get the professor to confess that he is mad
at God for letting his wife die. He takes out his anger on his young graduate
student wife, on his students and, really, on anyone else who will listen to
his atheist rants. The final scene of the movie has the professor being hit by
a car as he tries to cross the street. As he lay in the street dying, with his
last breath, he admits that he believes and makes right with God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The point of this
story is that it does not matter when one renews one’s relationships with God
and Jesus as long as one does. We have all been given God’s grace, otherwise we
would not be here in the first place. All that is needed to get to heaven is
belief. If one believes then one will naturally lead a Christian-value life. If
one does not believe then one will not live such a virtuous life. Remember,
though, from the Martha, Mary, and Jesus story that living a virtuous life is
not enough in and of itself to reach salvation. One must also believe. One must
also develop a personal relationship with Jesus and God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Nouman Ali Khan<span style="color: #212121;">, an Islamic internet
teacher, recites a story of a woman who tells him how Allah has always answered
her <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">du’a</i>. However, recently she has
been going through some rough times, she is engaged in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">du’a</i>, and Allah is not answering. She does not understand why. Ali
Khan’s answer was that Allah does not answer <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">du’as</i>. He does whatever he wants, when he wants. This is a
misperception many Muslims have, says the teacher. They think they can call out
to Allah and He will answer, immediately.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
full answer Ali Khan gave was that Allah takes care of us. He makes sure we get
what we need. It may happen immediately upon our calling out to Him, it may
happen in a few years or decades, or it may not happen until heaven, but Allah
provides. He may or may not provide relief for what one is asking for, but He
will provide.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
importance of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">du’a</i>, according to Ali
Khan, is to communicate with Allah. There must be dialogue, and that comes
through personal <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">du’a.</i> Sometimes we
do not believe the messages Allah sends to us, what He tells us. Ali Khan tells
the story of Mary, Mother of Jesus. Allah told Mary, an unmarried virgin, that
she would become pregnant. She did not believe Him. How could she get pregnant
when she is not married and, thus, has not and will not have sex with anyone?
“Trust me,” says Allah. “What I say is true.” Add to this that Mary knows she
will be scorned by her community for being unwed and pregnant. She does not
want this to happen. But Allah says it will happen, so it will. It is such a
horrible situation, in Mary’s mind, that she leaves her village so as not to be
seen by anyone, she wishes to be forgotten by everyone in the village, forever.
What Allah has done to her, she believes, is horrendous.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mary’s
story reminds us that Allah often acts in ways we do not understand. What
appears to Mary to be a bad thing is, indeed, a good thing; the prophet Jesus
is whom she births. It is in our open communication with Allah that we better
understand how He uses us for good, but we have to believe. We have to believe
that Allah is working good in us rather than bad, and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">du’a</i> is one of the ways this happens.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
above stories are belief stories. Their purpose is to lay out what it means to
be Christian, in the first two, and Muslim, in the latter. What do Christian
do, the stories ask. They develop relationships with God. What do Muslims do,
the story asks. They trust Allah to do the right thing. Belief stories give
directions for what to think and believe, and how to act. They are internalized
by individuals and presented to others as identities.</span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #00b0f0; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief Stories and Definition of the Situation<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here then
is the organizing theoretical principle of this book: belief stories. People
behave based on belief stories. They organize their definitions of situations
on belief stories. They pay attention to some objects in situations and not
others based on belief stories. They attribute meaning to the world’s many
wonders based on belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief
stories are created through interaction. People talk to one another using
belief stories. Thus belief stories are always in transit, never stopping and
settling down. Pieces are added and subtracted to the stories, adjusted this
way and that by individuals in interaction with their selves as well as with
others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Individuals
embrace numerous belief stories, some grand and overarching, others miniscule
and situation specific, that get them from situation-to-situation and
day-to-day. Additionally, societies of people, whether large or small, share
belief stories. The intersubjectivity of belief stories is what allows groups
of people to act together. When people share definitions of situations,
including definitions of selves within situations, they act in coordinated
fashions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A basic
symbolic interactionist assumption is that the cause of action is definition of
the situation. People act in specific situations based on their specific
interpretations of the reality of the situation. All the noticed and assumed
parts of the situation play a role in how it makes sense to the individuals
involved. Indeed, the individuals involved work together to maintain certain
definitions of reality in specific situations. To complicate the matter, each
individual pursues their own line of action, puts forth their own definition of
the situation supporting their desired goals, against the lines of actions of
all other actors in the situation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Definitions
of situations are part and parcel of belief stories. Belief stories contain
definitions of situations within them <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">and</i>
they are definitions of situations. Definitions of situations arise from belief
stories <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">and</i> they are belief stories.
Belief stories and definitions of situations are analytically distinct as ideal
types, but they are indistinguishable in the actions of real people in real
situations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Analytically,
belief stories are macro-culture. They occur in situations in which “the
meaning of life” is being presented: in church, for instance. Here large scale
meanings are presented in well-structured settings. Pastors, believed by
parishioners to be experts in interpreting and explaining reality, expound upon
what it means to be Christian. “Christianity” is a reality to be believed and
parishioners listen to pastors as experts on the subject. “To be a Christian,”
the pastor says, “is to believe that Jesus is God, not just the Son of God, but
God Himself.” Then they will point to passages in the Bible where Jesus tells
his followers that, for instance, “before Abraham, I am” (John, 8:58). Here is
the cornerstone of Christian reality. Jesus is God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A
pastor on CSN was discussing this very point when he argued that Mormons are
not Christian. They do not believe, he argued, that Jesus is God. They focus a
lot on God the Father, but not on God the Son. Therefore, they are not
Christian and, thus, they are heretics. “</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">They’re
making stuff up<span style="color: #212121;">!” said the CSN pastor about members
of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. What makes religion a
dramatic example of a basic social process (</span>Glaser and Strauss 1967<span style="color: #212121;">), the construction and implementation of belief stories,
is that their stories are based on non-empirical premises. Many of the things
that religious folks believe are not within the realm of observation, that is
why we say they are based on “faith.” One just has to believe these things are
true, and then act as if they are. For one group of Christians, the CSN call-in
radio show experts, to claim that other religious folks (Mormons) are making
stuff up highlights my main point: Empirically speaking, both groups are
“making stuff up.” Observationally, both groups believe things that cannot be
verified.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Peter<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> </b>Berger tells us what passes for
“knowledge” in any community of people serves to explain social experiences and
social order (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1967:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 29<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">)</b>. Belief stories create, maintain, and
justify community knowledge. It is through the telling and acting out of belief
stories that people reinforce what they believe they know.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
belief stories legitimate human realities by locating them within sacred and
cosmic frames of reference (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Berger 1967:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
33-34). They are used by tellers and listeners to make sense of it all. Belief
stories give justification as to why people act how they do. Our behaviors are
God-ordained, just like us. If we act differently we are acting against the
meaning and purpose of our existence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">This
“cosmization” of reality provides individuals with a subjective sense of their
own rightness in the world (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Berger</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1967: 37). People’s roles are reinforced through interactions with supporting
others. To place their realities within a larger ordering of the cosmos allows
people to place themselves within that order, giving them a sense of purpose, a
role to play. Cosmization is enabled through the telling and acting out of
belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Cultures,
norms, stories, and reality are established and reestablished against the
threat of their destruction (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Berger</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1967: 53). Belief stories are how realities are established and reestablished.
By telling and acting out stories we support each other in our perceptions that
perceptions are real.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief
Stories are Socially Constructed<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Sociologists
focus on interactions of individuals rather than imputed properties of single
individuals (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Coser</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1956: 56).
Belief stories exist as interactional constructs, as parts of people’s
collective definitions of situations. They are not part of individuals’ psyches
except as the people see them as such and, thus, act towards others as if they
are such.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">As
Goffman tells us, “(W)hen a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">multitude</i>
of independent signs tell the same story, this can be taken for the way things
are” (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Goffman
1969: </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">61). When one is in the presence of a
multitude of others who express the same belief stories, one internalizes the
stories, believes them to be the way things are, and acts as if this is true;
one presents oneself as the kind of person represented in the stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
construction of belief stories happens through language. The construction of
religion happens through language. Language assists in resolving the
relationship between uncertainty and faith (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 36). Belief stories create certainty. Where uncertainty
rears its head, belief stories are created to crush it. The construction of
certainty of belief is a key component of human interaction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">People
in conventional United States society tend to believe in an afterlife, though
these beliefs take different forms (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 155). Ideas about an afterlife are social constructions
based on empirically specific belief stories (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 167). Heaven is cultural because it is discussed in
public (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 168). People talk about it, write about it, sing about
it, make art and movies about it. The certainty of heaven as a destination is a
social construction. It is a publicly negotiated belief story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Evidence
that our mental horizons and belief stories are socially constructed stems from
the fact that they vary by culture or, in this case, by religion (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Zerubavel</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 42). Different belief stories “cause” people to see the
world in different ways. Separating the relevant from the irrelevant is a
social act (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Zerubavel</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 47). We
learn what to ignore and what to focus on. Our preferred belief stories contain
rhetoric suggesting what to pay attention to and what not to, what religious
accounts to believe and which to deny.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Different cultures
create different islands of meaning, they cut the world into different sorts of
pieces (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Zerubavel</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 56). Belief stories are what create these islands,
expressions of stories maintain the islands. Language is a signifier. It
represents, or stands for, something else (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Zerubavel</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 68). Belief stories contain culturally created signifiers
that point to objects in the world “out there.” Religious belief stories
consist of denominationally specific signifiers which point to denominationally
specific realities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
belief stories are bound by the social, spiritual, and cultural stories in
which they arose (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Aslan</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
2005: 17). Particular belief stories do not exist in isolation from other
stories; they are part and parcel of each other. Therefore, religious stories
work because they reflect conventional cultural themes (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Aslan</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2005: 21). Indeed, all successful cultural belief stories (even
unsuccessful ones, for that matter) arise as reflections of extant stories. The
better they mimic extant stories the more successful they will be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">If
the above is true, belief story innovators rarely create brand new stories;
rather, they assemble existing components into new configurations (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bainbridge</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 259). Again, group cultures arise within and, in turn,
influence larger cultural systems. Cultural belief stories more or less
resemble other belief stories. Theoretically, then, one can trace the histories
of cultures by examining the similarities and differences between stories.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
careful analysis of even one conversation can contribute to a deeper
understanding of how belief stories are embodied and mediated (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ideström</span><span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">2016: 66-67).
The enactments of stories are interpretive, they are translations of stories
heard and told by the actor based on those heard and told by others. The connections
between belief stories are unending and link all human beings together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">In
writing about the Adventist movement, as an example, William Bainbridge
suggests that for spirit compensators to work, both (or more) of the parties
witnessing the spirit must accept the belief in the spirit (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bainbridge</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 104-05). For people to accept that spirits are active in
their world they have to buy into the story that they exist. These stories, of
course, come from others in one’s community successfully convincing one that
they believe that spirits are active. If we believe it to be real, it is real
in its consequences; if we believe it to be real we act as if it is real.
Reality is created through the interactional enactment of belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">To
understand belief stories one must understand the cultural historical context
in which they originate. Barrett writes that Rastafarian culture is indigenous
to Jamaica (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Barrett</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>viii). Rastafarianism must be understood as a
continuation of Ethiopianism within Jamaican culture, which has existed since
at least the eighteenth century (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Barrett</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 68).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Bainbridge<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> </b>shows how<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> “</b>The culture of The Family is American secular culture reborn” (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bainbridge</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 239-40). They are part and parcel of the countercultural
movement that occurred throughout the United States in the late-60s. Therefore,
the principles presented in The Family belief stories resonate and complement
those told in the wider youth movement of that generation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
Belief Must be Absolute<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
idea of belief implies a lack of certainty (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 175). If one knows something for sure, as a fact, one
does not say that one “believes” in it, one says “it is.” The very existence of
belief stories, then, suggests an underlying uncertainty about identity and
belief. People either do not know who they are or they are unconvinced about
the identities of others. Either way, people are constantly engaged in the
interactional maintenance of belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
service program for June 26, 2016, at The Lutheran Church (LC) aligned well
with </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Martin Luther’s<span style="color: #212121;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Bondage of the Will</i>. The focus of the
sermon was “All In.” Through Bible and Gospel passages it urged congregants to
be full Christians. Do not get into this in a half-ass way. Jesus did not. His
apostles did not, and if they did, He told them to get in line or get out. So,
too, </span>Luther (1957)<span style="color: #212121;"> criticizes Erasmus for
being half-ass. He tells Erasmus that if he is not a full Christian, then they
do not need to have the debate they are having. If he is a Christian, however,
he needs to be all in. He needs to believe it all – Jesus as God’s son, paying
the price for our sins on the cross, coming back to life as our justification –
or get out.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon of LC used an argument to this affect during our Morning Lounge
conversation on June 17, and I have heard others make this argument as well. He
said that his entire faith rests on the actions of Jesus. Either Jesus was
crazy, or He was a swindler, or He was the real deal. If He was either of the
first two then Christianity is a sham. If he is the third then Christianity is
the real deal. Pastor Gordon chooses the third.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In a
Bible Study Pastor Gordon made a similar statement. He said there are two
religions in the world. The first is the Jesus story, including the idea that
God has freely given us His grace for no reason other than He loves us and that
there is nothing we can do to earn it, it is a gift. Then there are all the
other religions. The latter are religions created by man. The former, true
religion, is created by God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People
invest themselves in cultural practices. Their senses of self are based on
ideas of reality they see as correct. If reality is correct, then their self is
correct because they have a place in such a correct reality. But if reality is
not correct then their sense of self is incorrect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon of LC speaks of being all in or not at all. One day at Morning
Refreshments we talked of people who call themselves Catholics but do not go to
church or participate in any church activities. He says these folks are a
farce. Why would you call yourself a Catholic if you do not behave like one. It
does not make sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon’s statement about non-practicing self-labeled Catholics is a statement
about his self. He is suggesting that he is all in. His sense of himself as a
Christian Lutheran is consistent with his perception of reality of
Christianity. He is a Christian because he believes in Christianity
wholeheartedly. His perceptions of his Christian behaviors fit with his
perceptions of what a Christian is and does.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Conversely,
people who call themselves Catholics but do not participate in Catholic
activities are a “farce,” they are fake. Their perceptions of themselves as
Catholics do not fit Pastor Gordon’s perceptions of reality of what a real
Catholic (Christian) is and does. He is defining what he is by defining what
they are not. His perception of a correct reality/correct self is consistent,
theirs are not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Nouman
Ali Khan<span style="color: #212121;"> teaches a story from the Quran about the
Prophet Muhammad and how Allah chose to make one of the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">surahs</i> known to him. He went to a cave and encountered an angel.
The angel asked him to read. The Prophet said he could not. The angel gave
Muhammad a bear hug and asked again, to which the Prophet said, again, “no.”
This happened three times. When the angel told the story to Muhammad he
remembered everything, as he did with all the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">surahs</i>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Muhammad then went back to his wife and asked her
if he was crazy. “Am I really speaking to angels and Allah, or am I crazy? I do
not know what to believe.” His wife told him he is not crazy. In fact, Allah
informed Muhammad that the stories are true and that he is not crazy at the
beginning of their correspondences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">In this story, the Prophet is questioning his own
beliefs. He wants to believe the commands of Allah, but normal people do not
have such beliefs. Usually, if someone makes claims like those of Muhammad,
they are called crazy by others. Muhammad had to convince himself (with his
wife’s help) that his beliefs were true and then he had to convince others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief stories are
behaviors. Therefore, reality is a behavior. People act so as to convince
themselves and others of some version of reality and, of course, those with
whom we interact are doing the same. In this chapter I detailed these basic
tenets of belief stories using examples from the realm of religion to make my
point. The rest of the book will focus on categorical types of religious belief
stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Chapter 6<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Distinctions:
Us versus Them, One True Religion, Believers and Non-Believers<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The religious
communities I observed struggle with how to distinguish themselves from other
communities (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Beck</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2010: 59). On
the one hand each community occurs in a specific block of time and chunk of
space and thus, de facto, are unique from others. Each community has its own
belief stories, more or less, that depend on whether the community is
independent or whether they are members of larger denominations. The former
create their own stories and subsequent identities, the latter have belief
stories and identities handed down from higher-ups in their bureaucracies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
distinction between we and them, in-group and outsiders, is established in and
through conflict (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Coser</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1956: 35). Public, private, and everyday discussions concerning how we are
right and they are wrong are the backbone of belief stories. “We are not like
Mormons,” a Christian story might read, “because we know the Bible is the final
Word of God. We are not like Catholics because we know there is no purgatory.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief
stories are full of us versus them components. In this chapter I detail, mainly
through empirical example, how folks make distinctions between their own
religious realities and those of others. I will first give examples from my
observations from a variety of places, including but not limited to, religious
television and radio shows. I will describe the “one true religion” story that
most religious folk adhere to, discuss the omnipresent story about believers
and non-believers, and then provide a description of “distinction stories.”
Finally, I provide a series of vignettes that highlight religious leaders’
views on religious realities and distinctions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">One True Religion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The Christian Satellite Network has a show late on
weekday afternoons where callers ask Christian-themed questions to a couple of
experts who help solve whatever problem the caller is having. One day I turned on
the station in the middle of the experts’ answer. The gist of the question was
“I am born again, but used to be Catholic. How do I discuss my Christianity
with my Catholic friends? They say they are Christians just like me.” The
experts’ answers to this question went something like this: “Catholics are a
lot like Christians. We believe in many of the same things. But they have some
readings that are not biblical. They do things that are not biblical. Real
Christians believe that all the answers are in the Bible. We do not need any
other sources.” The experts went on to a more widespread discussion of
non-biblical “Christianity.” “</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">It is
non-Biblical,” they said, “that a Catholic priest can turn wine into the blood
of Christ. It is nowhere in the Bible. It is non-Biblical that Mormons baptize
the dead. It is not in the Bible.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"> </span>They are
making stuff up!”<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121;"><o:p></o:p></span></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Members of all three of the above mentioned groups
(Christians, Mormons, Catholics) stake claims on the stories they make up. They
have vested interests in promoting their belief stories as “fact” and painting
other belief stories as fiction, when, in fact, they are all fiction. The
experts on CSN radio have their credibility at stake. Either they are speaking
the truth that the Bible is God’s word and all truth is within its pages, or
they are making stuff up, which would make them con-men or crazy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The CSN experts believe what they are saying.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe theirs is
the “one true religion” and that all others are false. Catholics believe their
stories to be the ultimate truth. The telling of belief stories is how people
maintain each other’s beliefs and get others to buy into their beliefs at the
expense of other stories. They are how distinctions are made.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The “one true
religion” focus of Christianity and Judaism goes back a long time. The
Pharisees were a group of Jews in the few centuries before Christ who lived
their lives by Jewish Law. Paul, from the New Testament, was originally a
Pharisee who lived in the 1<span style="mso-text-raise: 3.0pt; position: relative; top: -3.0pt;">st</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Century
BCE. Jesus (according to Matthew and others in the New testament) believed the
Pharisees to be wrong. In his view the Pharisees were right to follow the Law,
but they did not live according to the self-same Law. They encouraged people to
follow them as teachers when, in fact, there is only one teacher and that is
God. They encouraged people to see them as fathers and leaders when, in fact,
there is only one true Father and Leader and that is God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Members of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that God and Jesus spoke with
Joseph Smith and told him that everyone else was wrong and left Joseph golden
plates to transcribe the true story of Jesus. Latter-Day Saints, then, believe
themselves and their religion to be the one true religion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>People act based on
their beliefs: they believe it to be true so they act as if it is true. Young
members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints serve missions
around the world because they believe they are spreading the truth. They
believe that the Book of Mormon is truer than any other version of the truth.
Romans persecuted Christians in the first few centuries CE because they
believed them to be atheists. They thought Christians believed in a false God.
Jesus went around telling Pagans they were wrong, they needed to believe in
this one God because He is the true God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Much
of the content of the belief stories I observed, especially from Christians,
were of a competitive nature. “This is why we are the best.” “This is why we are
the one true faith.” “This is why they are false and we are true.” This talk is
the result of competition for members. Churches, like other products in
capitalist societies, use rhetoric to pull members toward themselves and push
them away from others; one true religion being a most common form of such
competitive rhetoric.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Believers
Versus Non-<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
people divide others into the world of believers, for whom humanity is granted,
and unbelievers, for whom it is denied (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Beck</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
2010: 61). A perpetual state of conflict exists between these two groups.
Religious belief stories are rife with such comparisons. Ulrich Beck suggests
Christianity is an intolerant religion, always has been (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Beck</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2010: 99). They rebuked Greco-Roman polytheism, broke off from
Judaism, and rejected Islam. They condemn heretics who, though believing in
Jesus, disseminate information that contradicts settled Christian doctrine.
There are elements of this intolerance in Christian belief stories and
identities. Again with the boundaries: Christian or not. Believe in Jesus
Christ or not. There is only one way to get to heaven, all other ways lead to
hell.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Believers
have shared experiences like baptism (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Beck</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
2010: 111), which is an important part of the belief story that leads to a
recognized Christian identity. A number of Protestant pastors told me about the
importance of baptism as a public performance of one’s belief in Christ. Pastor
Gordon added that baptism is an act not to be taken lightly. He requires his
parishioners to complete a baptism class and show him an understanding of what
it means to be baptized before he will perform it for them. Many pastors
require something similar to what Pastor Gordon does, at the very least
requiring members to publicly profess their belief.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Stories
about heaven tend to contrast it with the undesirable aspects of life on earth
(</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 184-85). This is true for both Christian and Muslim
stories: life here is rough, but by behaving appropriately one can make it to
heaven, which is beauty beyond imagination. Christian and Muslim belief stories
focus on heaven as a better place than earth as a way of committing people to a
way of life that will get them there. Only believers get into heaven (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 200). Buying into, expressing, and enacting belief
stories are how one gets to a place better than this, but only if one believes.
How do we know if one believes? How does one know oneself if one believes? By
acting as if one does. No one can know what another actually believes, but they
can see how others act.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Distinction
Stories<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A
significant aspect of belief story realities is the identification of
distinctions between one’s own correct reality and others’ incorrect realities.
A few stories from Pastor Gordon can help with this. In one Sunday service Pastor
Gordon made a special point to emphasize how God has revealed His entire plan,
cleared up the entire mystery, in the Bible. The whole story is there. Nothing
else needs to be told. He then said that “here in Utah” some people do not get
that (the “here in Utah” being a thinly veiled reference to the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints). That LDS theology suggests the story is not
finished, that they have “another testament of Jesus Christ” is not Christian,
was Pastor Gordon’s message.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another
story comes from Morning Refreshments with Pastor Gordon. I asked him if he
knows much about Rastafarianism, he said he does not. I told him what I know,
including the bit about how they believe that God comes to Earth in different
forms – Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Halie Salasie. Pastor Gordon stopped me and
said, “Then they are not Christian.” I agreed and said that </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Barrett (1997)<span style="color: #212121;"> agreed, too. Correct
Christianity, according to Pastor Gordon, is tightly defined by the accounts of
the Bible; nothing more, nothing less.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A final
Pastor Gordon distinction story starts with a paper written by a student of
mine. The paper was an ethnographic sociological description of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints based on her own fieldwork. In one section
she writes about how members of the church pay attention to who is and is not
taking communion in a particular meeting. LDS members who perceive of
themselves as being unworthy, having engaged in sinful activities, will refrain
from taking communion. The student wrote that, in high school at least, those
who did not take communion the previous Sunday are often shunned at school. LDS
members who see themselves as being worthy do not want to associate with those
who are not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I told
this story to Pastor Gordon and he suggested this is indicative of a religion
of people, not of God. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints are too concerned with each others’ Earthly activities and not concerned
enough about God. He makes the same argument when we talk about Born Again
Stories (I discuss these in an upcoming chapter). He says that to put too much
emphasis on these stories, on one’s conversion experience, is to put too much
emphasis on oneself and not enough on God and His Word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
above stories are examples of the construction of distinction. Religious folk
emphasize how their theology, their correct reality, is different from others’
theologies, others’ (in)correct realities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A television show
called <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The ExMormon Files</i> on Dish
Network channel 20 aired an episode with a host, a “Bishop," and a guest,
an ex-Mormon. The Bishop, also an ex-Mormon, and the guest now have Christian
ministries of their own. The Bishop was asking the ex- how he came to leave the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The guest said how at some point
he decided to truly investigate the Church, as members are asked to do. First,
he says, they ask you to investigate it to see if it is really the one true
church. But then they ask members not to investigate outside of Church
doctrine. The guest saw this as a contradiction; investigate and question, but
only within the bounds of Church doctrine.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The guest had some
things to say that help to understand his distinction between Mormons and
Christians. First he told of how Mormons believe in stages of progression.
Everybody, Mormons believe, go through these stages. We start as spirits
(created by Heavenly Father and Mother), move into a mortal body and life, move
into a post-mortal body and life and, eventually (hopefully), move into an
exalted God life. Important is that even Jesus and God the Father went through
this progression. Those Mormons who follow celestial law the closest get to
become Gods themselves.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Based on the guest’s
understanding of LDS doctrine, God and Jesus started out as just regular guys
like you and me. Jesus is our big brother, God is our father. Christians, on
the other hand, believe that Jesus is God and that God is the creator of
everything in eternity. God, for Christians, is an entity separate from
humanity. God, for Mormons, is Father. Jesus is brother.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The guest told a
story about how, as a Mormon, Jesus was a great guy and he hoped to meet him
someday and shake his hand. As a Christian he expects, if he ever does meet
Jesus, he will fall flat on his face because, since Jesus is God, he will not
be able to handle the immensity of it all. “I knew a lot about Jesus,” the
guest said, “as a Mormon, but I did not <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">know</i>
Jesus.” He continued that, for Christians, the relationship is between the
individual and God. For Mormons it is a relationship with the Church. This
leads to the distinction between a church of salvation (Christianity) and a
church of works (Mormons). Mormons progress through the stages based on their
adherence to doctrine. Christians gain salvation through faith. “Once saved,
always saved,” said the guest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Why do good works,
then,” Mormons ask, “if you’re saved one way or another?” “Because,” answers
the guest, “as a Christian I am a vessel of God. I am doing what God wants me
to. And God is good. To be a Christian is to be good (though, as humans, we do
sin).” Mormons, on the other hand, do good works to please others in the
Church, and God, in order to move through the progressions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Both the Bishop and
the guest have started ministries. The guest’s is a Christian ministry aimed at
questioning ex-Mormons; some high percentage (80%) of ex-Mormons, guest claims,
leave religion altogether when leaving the Church. He wants to introduce them
to Christ. He sees an untapped market for Jesus and he is going for it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: normal; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon and I had a discussion about the distinctions between the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church (WELS,
of which LC is affiliated), and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
(ELCA). The LCMS and WELS used to be joined, but they split in the 1960s
because the WELS felt the LCMS was becoming too liberal in their
interpretations of the Bible and, especially, of Jesus Christ. The ELCA is a
combination of two other Lutheran denominations (the American Lutheran Church
and the Lutheran Church in America). This church, in Pastor Gordon’s mind, is
too liberal in their understanding of the Bible and Christ. The ELCA is close
to denying that Jesus was the son of God or that he rose from the dead or that
God even exists. Without these things, argues Pastor Gordon, why even have a
religion? It makes no sense to call yourselves Christians if you do not believe
these things.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another
time Pastor Gordon made a distinction between what he believes and what he
believes Calvinists believe. He has a list in the back of his Bible, written in
orange, of these distinctions. He turned to the list and began to read. One
point he made was that Calvinists believe in predetermination, that God
determines who will go to heaven and who will go to hell before we are born. He
sees this as un-Biblical and un-Christian. “It is nowhere in the Bible,” is
something Pastor Gordon says about this. If it is un-Biblical and un-Christian
then you are not believing or practicing the truth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Well,”
says I, “I am guessing a Calvinist would point me to something in Scripture to
support their belief in predestination.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“They
would point to Esau and Jacob,” was Pastor Gordon’s answer, “where it states
that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. That is it. They take that one small bit
and build their theology upon it. They do not look at it in the context of the
entire Bible.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon is sure that his way of interpreting the Bible is not interpretation at
all, it is the way the Bible is meant to be understood, by God. But others feel
the same way. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints surely
believe that the Book of Mormon is truly another testament of Jesus Christ. Christian
Scientists surely believe that Mary Baker Eddy’s writings are the truth. This
latter group puts so much faith in Eddy’s writing that they engage in no
extemporaneous lectures or sermons during their services; just <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Science and Health with a Key to the
Scriptures</i> and the gospels. That is it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A
criticism of religion, especially by those who, in </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Wuthnow’s<span style="color: #212121;"> (2012) language, are part
of “rational” culture in the United States, is the Bible is nothing more than a
piece of literature and, as such, can be interpreted in countless ways. Because
of this one can never pin down a Biblical scholar because the scholar needs no
evidence of their perceived truth other than their interpretation of the Bible.
Pastor Gordon needs to go no further than his trusty, well-worn Bible, to back
up his arguments. He can argue that others are misinterpreting the Bible and
offer nothing more than his own interpretations of the readings to back himself
up.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><span style="background: lightgrey; color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon, Mike, and I sat/stood at the bar and chatted one day during Morning
Refreshments at LC. Mike is Pastor Gordon’s acquaintance. They say they met at
the Dickens Festival in St. George. Mike, as evidenced in a number of ways
during our ensuing conversation, is a religious man, a Christian. He attends
Desert Ridge Baptist Church (DRBC). Mike likes Pastor Gordon but says he cannot
come to The Lutheran Church (LC) because he is committed to another.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Using
Jim (a Wednesday night Bible Study attendee at LC, but full-time attendee at
DRBC) and Mike as examples, some people commit themselves to a particular
church and stick with it, even if they find another they like more.
Furthermore, some people seem to continuously check out other churches to see
what is going on. Both Jim and Mike somehow found Pastor Gordon and LC and like
it, but they stay with DRBC, both suggesting that leaving that church is not
easy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mike
said that when he moved to St. George from Upstate New York he “interviewed”
pastors to decide on a church. He would literally set up an appointment to meet
with them, “pretend I knew nothing, and see what they told me. Some of them
should not be pastors because they do not know what they are talking about.” He
settled first on The Bible Church (TBC).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">I did not catch why Mike chose TBC. What I did
catch was he left it because “Pastor Ed is a shallow preacher.” Mike went on to
outline what he means by “shallow.” “I could make an outline right now for Pastor
Ed’s sermon next Sunday and I would be almost spot on. He starts with a
personal story in which he is the hero. He then gives a sermon that really
skips over the text. And he always ends with an alter call.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mike went
on to say how churches should be for those who are already Christian, they
should not be places for recruiting members. By ending every service with an
alter call Pastor Ed seems to be emphasizing recruiting new members over
preaching to the converted. It is shallow, claims Mike, so he left for DRBC,
though I did not catch why this church pulled him in, I only know how TBC
pushed him away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">We talked about The Baptist Church (BC) in
Washington. Mike said he interviewed Pastor Morty at BC and could tell “right
away what he was about.” What he is about, says Mike, is a traditional form of
Baptist theology that ends up being “separatist.” They are not interested in
interacting with the community. This aligns with my interview with Pastor Morty.
He said he is not interested in expanding his church, not at the risk of
watering down the Word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">We also talked about The Community Church (CC),
what both Pastor Gordon and Mike know as the Oasis. Specifically, we talked
about their full band and worship service. Mike said that CC is modern and “too
loud.” “If you cannot play it acoustic, then you should not play it electric,”
is what Mike said. I said that DRBC has a full band and he corrected me. They
have keyboards, a guitar, three singers, sometimes a bass. No drums. “And I
complain to the pastor that it is too loud!” said Mike.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The previous paragraphs are examples of belief
stories that make distinctions between one denomination and another. The people
are telling me what they believe to be true understandings of the Bible,
pastors, and churches that present themselves as Christian. They highlight how
they came to choose one of these churches over another; they act based on their
believed distinction stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Pastors’
Stories<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A great source of data concerning
the perceived truth of one religion or denomination over another comes from the
mouths of pastors and other religious leaders. These are folks who have
dedicated their lives to teaching particular truths by telling particular
belief stories. What follows are excerpts from my interviews with various
religious leaders, highlighting their realities and how they came to embrace
them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Father Tom<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the next three
passages, Father Tom of The Episcopal Church explains what he feels are the
basic truths of the Episcopal reality. First he tells of the kinds of people
who are drawn to this church. Next, he discusses Emerging Christianity as an
ideal type of Christian reality. Finally, he places the Episcopalian religious
reality within the larger realities of other Christian churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="tab-stops: .5in 1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Had a great
experience in a place called Stonington, Connecticut, on the shore. It was the
first time I felt really that we kind of matched in terms of interests. Bright
New Englanders. Did not take religion too seriously. They love the arts and
community and they weren’t holier than thou and closed evangelical. Really kind
of a meeting of the minds and soul.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Ft:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, Emerging
Christianity, which is kind of in-between Christianities, is actually tapping
into those things. Forming communities beyond institutional church, no real
creeds, they want sacramental worship, symbolic, experiential, mystery,
scripture, and real daily prayer, and involvement in the world. That is called.
. .It is actually very Christian. . .Emerging Christianity has rediscovered
that. So Brian McLaren, Diane Butler-Bass. I was not so sure about them ten
years ago. I thought, “Evangelical.” It is fabulous. Rediscovering the first
three centuries of the faith when Christians were not known as Christians, they
were called “people of the way.” The way of Jesus. He called disciples, sent
them out themselves, the seventy, to go and teach, heal, cast out demons, bring
peace. Whenever you do that you have experienced Kingdom. Intentional spiritual
practices of study, prayer, teaching, healing, ministry, not proselytizing,
ministry – the poor, the homeless – that will lead to a spiritual experience, a
transformation. I have experienced that myself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Catholics are known
for more institution, authority, dogma, doctrine. Protestants are known for
their emphasis on scripture, preaching, proclaiming the Word. Anglicans, we are
known, our three areas of authority in the Episcopal Church are scripture, and
that is in the Prayer Book, tradition, reason, there is a fourth area of
authority we call experience. Scripture, that is where we get our authority.
The Catholics are known for dogma, doctrine, mass, institutional, church.
Protestants known for scripture, teaching and proclaiming the news, not a lot
of social justice. Methodists, social justice. Episcopalians, our authority is
scripture which comes from the Protestant wing; tradition, Catholic; reason, 17<span style="mso-text-raise: 2.5pt; position: relative; top: -2.5pt;">th</span>/18<span style="mso-text-raise: 2.5pt; position: relative; top: -2.5pt;">th</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Century England/France, the enlightenment, we
love ideas; experience is a nod to the individual experience of God which is
the evangelical side. Evangelicals felt you had to have that personal,
powerful, emotional, experience, which Catholics and Anglicans do not
necessarily trust because that is all very individualistic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Pastor Paul<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Pastor
Paul of The Four Square Church first explains the foundational reality of his
church, then distinguishes Four Square from other, “dog and pony show”
Pentecostal Churches, and finally gives examples of behaviors at a non-truthful
Pentecostal Church and a truthful one. Pastor Paul’s stories highlight the
religious reality he embraces and wishes to teach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So, great world-wide
outreach, great disaster relief, feeding the hungry, based on a simple
principle that God’s Word is the inspired word of God that we teach. Keeping
all things in balance without extremes of fanaticism. God said what He meant,
meant what He said. Our job is simply to find out what those words meant in
context. Keep the Word of God in balance, not lifting any verse over any other.
Four Square stands for the fourfold ministry of Jesus Christ: He is our Savior,
our Healer, the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit, and the soon coming King.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We are under the
large umbrella of Pentecostal. We’d be on the mild end of that spectrum.
Pentecostal has a bit of a bad rap because of some of the extremist movements
within the Pentecostal umbrella. But, yes, we are within the true
definition-sense, part of that Pentecostal umbrella. We are on the mild side of
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Look. Rolling on the
floor, making animal sounds, is nowhere in the Bible. It is just not Biblical,
it is not scriptural. If there is a Pentecostal Church that is having chaos, I
call that a dog and pony show, not a move of the Holy Spirit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We had a lady who
used to bring a little banner and wave it and dance. That is absolutely
Biblical. Worship, both in song and word, can be a very spiritually moving
experience. We can be very moved in the experience. I have prayed over people
who, where the Holy Spirit has knocked them down. Unlike some, I have never pushed
anyone down for affect. I actually had someone pray over me who tried to give
me a little help going down and that told me something intuitive about his
ministry. He had crossed a line. I have laid hands and prayed over somebody and
had them just hit the ground. I was overcome by the Holy Spirit at that Bible
Study when I first got saved and I have certainly been with people in service
that have been clearly moved by the Holy Spirit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Pastor George<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">In
the first excerpt that follows, Pastor George explains how the Assemblies of
God believes many of the things that other mainstream Christian religions do,
then suggests there are some distinctions due to their Pentecostal beliefs. He
then makes a common Christian assertion, in the second excerpt, about true
faith being between an individual and God, not something that resides within a
manmade religion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">---<span style="background: lightgrey; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PG:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the Assemblies of
God we have a Statement of Belief, sixteen basic doctrines, which are very
typical for the Baptists, Methodists, so forth. The Pentecostal aspect is a
little different from the Baptist and Methodist.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PG:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are a lot of
religions out there, things that man has created, having the appearance of
Godliness. But our focus is not on a religion, an organization, or anything. It
is on that intimate relationship with God. Yes, we call ourselves a fellowship
more than a denomination or more than an organization.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Pastor Morty<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Morty of The
Baptist Church (BC) distinguishes his independent Baptist Church from other
Christian churches in the area. In the first quote he states that when he was
building his church he only wanted money donated from other Baptist churches
because they are the true church. In the second quote he emphasizes the
traditional nature of BC then, in the next quote, he tells of how his church,
different from others, teaches the Bible literally. Finally, in the last
passage, Pastor Morty makes that point that church is for already saved
Christians, it is not a place to attract new ones.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PM:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It is all Baptist
Churches, we weren’t interested in money from other denominations that had
different beliefs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PM:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We take a lot of
pride in not changing. You’ll notice we sing what are referred to as the old
hymns of the faith. We are not into contemporary Christian music, worship
bands, the worship groups they have up front, that sort of thing. Obviously we
do not do that, you’ve seen that. We are still old fashion. We’ve never been
very big, because the current trend is contemporary rock music. We are just not
into that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PM:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here we emphasize the
Bible and teach the Bible because the Bible does speak of itself as being the
means by which a person can become more like Christ. That is, the earthly goal
is to be like Him as we go about our business in whatever job or occupation you
may have. That is why we put so much emphasis on the Bible, because here we
believe it is not just God’s word, it is a standard of living and also our only
means of knowing how to please Him. That is the difference. There is a lot of
religions that do not have anything to do with Christ, or they are misguided in
their views of Christ cuz they do not really believe the Bible. And may I say
also one of the differences here and a lot of other denominations, is that we
believe the Bible is to be understood literally, interpreted literally. Most of
the other denominations do not do that. I have been taught my whole life to interpret
it in a literal view. That is how we read it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PM:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We do not have
anything here to attract people other than the Word of God itself. People are
not going to come here just to sing hymns. The people that come here love the
Word of God. We are not interested in attracting people through entertainment
or the circus or whatever you want to call it that a lot of churches seem to be
doing to get people to come. The Bible teaches us that the Gospel itself is
foolish to those who do not know Christ. It says that definitely to the
Corinthians. It basically says that the unsaved mind cannot understand the
things of God. The whole purpose of church, then, is primarily for believers. A
lot of these churches probably would not agree with that. That is why they do
what they can to get people to come. We are not interested in advertising in
the sense of selling ourselves. If we can get people to commit to Christ out
and about where we live and work then they will come in and they will be able
to find the spiritual sustenance to grow and be fruitful and the whole bit. We
are not trying to attract unsaved people. If they come in on their own, even
like yourself, that is great. God bless you. But it is not like we are reaching
out and trying to program our whole church to attract them because that is not
even Biblical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Pastor Ed<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Pastor
Ed, of The Bible Church (TBC), has a different take on modernization and
attracting members. In the following quotes he first explains there are some
Baptist Churches in town that TBC sees eye-to-eye with, but others with whom
they do not. Next he describes how adding modern worship technology like
viewing screens and a full worship band created more involvement and a better
experience for members of the church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PE:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are some
Baptist Churches here in town that, if you were to compare our Doctrinal
Statements, they are identical. We look at them as brothers and sisters in
Christ and we have a good relationship with them. There are some churches that
there are significant doctrinal differences in beliefs that we do not work
together with. We do not fight them, but we know that we do not see eye-to-eye
as far as what we believe. They are not someone that we necessarily endorse or
try to do things with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PE:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are just good
hymn books out there that Baptist Churches use, different Christian Churches
use them. Sometimes you change because you see something better. Our song
service, to me, was getting very liturgical, very staid. I visited a church and
they were using the screen, which got people’s heads up out of the books,
looking up toward the front. They did not have a full band, but they had people
up there singing different parts and they did have some guitars and drums and
things. We started trying a few different things and our singing improved
one-thousand percent and people were much more involved. Sometimes you just
see, “This works better for us.” I do not have a problem with anybody still
using piano and organ and a song leader if that is what they feel is best for
them. We try to include one or two hymns because we do not want people to lose
touch with the hymns because they have a powerful message to them but a lot of
the new songs have a powerful message to them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Pastor Scott<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">The
Community Church’s (CC) Pastor Scott makes a distinction between charismatic
churches that have a lot of emotion and ecstatic behavior in their services,
and his, a non-charismatic church, which is geared toward the mind. The former
are phony, CC is not. In the second quote he outlines CC’s belief, their truth.
It is clear, concise, and follows the Gospel. Finally, Pastor Scott explains
why CC dropped “Baptist” from their name; people simply would not come if they
thought it was a “hellfire and brimstone” Baptist church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 4.5pt .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PS:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The charismatic
churches are not the predominant side of the church. A lot of the truths we
hold to, they would hold to everything with the exception of, they would
believe that certain people can still act as prophets and perform miracles and
heal people. Not that God does not do healing, but when you see faith healers.
. . a lot of them are charlatans, they are just getting rich. It is all phony,
bogus. Those faith healers on TV have been proven false. I never went to any
types of churches like that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 4.5pt .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PS:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We believe in the
Gospel. We are born into this world separated from God and there is nothing
humanly possible that we can do to fix it. It is a doctrine we call “Total
depravity,” every single human is totally depraved. In every sphere, in every
area of our existence – mind, body, soul, and spirit – we are less than perfect
and we fall short of God’s glory. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So we would say Adam
was our Federal Head of the human race and he failed. But Christ came as the
second Adam, he came and did what Adam failed to do. He perfectly obeyed God.
Not just the one commandment of “do not eat the fruit from this tree,” but all
of the commandments. He satisfied the Father’s requirements for justice on the
cross when he died. So when a person puts their trust in Jesus Christ as the
“one who lived the life they can now live and then died the death they deserved
to die to pay for their sins,” that is faith. And by putting your trust in God
and making a commitment to follow Jesus Christ, God eternally forgives you of
all your sins, He basically takes what Jesus paid, you know, He paid the
penalty, and God takes that payment and applies it to your account. That is
what we believe.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PS:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We started out as DS
Baptist Church, cuz I started with what I knew. The Baptists are really good
theologically, we believe probably all the same things. But I really felt like
God was not offended by music that is contemporary, whereas they only did
hymns. Their music was fifty to one-hundred years old. So we wanted to go a
different direction. Once we got the church up and running we broke from the
mission board and we went completely independent. We dropped the name “Baptist”
because people actually would not come to this church because of the name
Baptist.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Reverend Joan<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally, Reverend Joan
of The Religious Science Institute (RSI), discusses the reactions others,
mostly members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, have when
coming to understand the RSI reality. In her eyes they experience the joy of a
more open and accepting god and truth than what they are used to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We are an open,
loving, inclusive community that supports thinking creatively and living a
deeply spiritual life. We invite them in and I have found that sometimes they
cannot bear to be told they are wonderful and special. That is what we tell
them, “You’re unique.” I have had even men walk away crying, “I cannot do
this.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">M:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As opposed to having
a god that puts judgment. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes. That I need to
be punished. That was my own search when I found that the god that I was
praying to was within me. What a change that made in my life. I was praying to
something that I couldn’t find.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center; text-indent: -.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #00b0f0; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">A key component in the telling of belief stories is the ability
to make distinctions between one reality and another; religious stories are no
exception. Most religious story tellers make the claim that theirs is the one
true religion and make distinctions between believers of their told realities
and non-.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The stories from religious
leaders presented in this chapter serve to solidify this idea: story tellers
claim reality truths through their stories while disavowing the realities of
the stories of others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Chapter 7<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center; text-indent: .5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Being
Religious, Acting Religious: The Connection between Belief and Behavior<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Why do people act? This is a core sociological question. The
answer is, people act based on what they believe. They act based on which
belief stories they accept and which they reject. In this chapter I detail the
connection between beliefs and actions and the roles belief stories have in
maintaining this connection.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
Need and Fulfillment<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Georg </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Simmel<span style="color: #212121;"> (1997) defines “religiosity”
as a state of being within an individual, like being athletic or artistic. Some
people are more religious than others and they cannot help it. To ask a
religious person to stop being religious would be like asking a runner to stop
running or an artist to stop painting. The first step toward being religious is
that religiousness must be individually and culturally recognized. No one knows
it is possible to be religious unless there is a cultural label, a word,
pointing it out. People convince each other that “being religious” exists and
that some people are more “religious” than others. Once the label is created people
point out to self and others that some people are religious and others are not;
so-and-so is religious but so-and-so is not.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Once a
religious label is constructed and accepted some people will feel that they,
themselves, are religious. They will internalize the idea they are religious;
religious becomes a quality of their being. People identify others as religious
or not by the way they act. Religious people must act as if they are religious
or no one will think they are, and vice versa. Non-religious people must avoid
acting as if they are religious otherwise others might think they are.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Simmel<span style="color: #212121;"> (1997) further makes an
“analytic separation into <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">need</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">fulfillment</i>” (p. 11) when discussing
spirituality. Those who internalize the idea that they are religious develop a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">need</i> to be religious because even they
do not know they are unless they act as if they are. People only learn they are
religious (or anything else, for that matter) by acting according to cultural
labels. Those who are labeled (especially by self, but by others, as well) as
religious develop a need to act religious so they and others can accurately
apply the religious label to them.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Furthermore,
cultures provide ways for the religiously labeled to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">fulfill</i> the action requirements of being so. There are, in </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Mertonian<span style="color: #212121;"> (1957) terms, appropriate
means for attaining one’s needs within a culture. One obvious way religious
fulfillment occurs is through participation in recognized religious services.
Going to church every Sunday (or some semblance of) shows to others that one is
of some sort of religious nature. Knowing hymns at church by heart shows to
others and self that one is of some type of religious nature. Having a
well-worn Bible serves the same purpose.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As an
example of religious need and fulfillment, American </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">women newly converted to Islam can produce an ease of wearing
headscarves by, well, repeatedly wearing them (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Rao</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2015: 421-22). These women create a moral habitus by embodying
the faith. By enacting the belief story of being Muslim by wearing a headscarf,
these women come to accept themselves as embodying the stories and, thusly, by
providing women with the means to wear a scarf, others allow them to fulfill
their religious need. The wearing of the headscarf is a belief story enacted by
Muslim women and accepted (or not) by those with whom they interact.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief Stories are Actions<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief
stories are actions. They are told and enacted by countless individuals in
myriad ways in interactions with one another. Stories are espoused in relation
to other people with more or less similarly enacted stories. In other words,
the telling of belief stories are actions in and of themselves that confer
identities upon presenters. What follows are some examples of active belief
stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>On page
157 of </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">J.P. Sartre’s<span style="color: #212121;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Age of Reason</i> (1947) appears the
following line: “</span>Go down on your knees and you will believe. I dare say
you are right. I want to believe first<span style="color: #212121;">.” This is
Mathieu talking with Brunet. Brunet is trying to get Mathieu to join the communist
party, but Mathieu is not sure he wants to. He knows their ideas are good and
he agrees with most of their politics, but he is not sure he can commit himself
wholeheartedly to their ideology. Brunet tells him that his indecision is
typical. He just needs to join, come to a few meetings, engage in some
communist activities, and belief will come. Join first. Act. Then you will
believe.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sartre’s
story touches on the social psychological as well as the communal aspects of
belief. Social psychologically, people convince themselves that they hold
certain beliefs because they act like people who hold those beliefs. They see
others doing so at belief services (religious services). This is akin to
Durkheim’s discussion of the importance of ritual in creating cohesion. We do
not really know what others believe, but we can see that we are acting like
people who we think believe certain things. Since you and I are acting
similarly we must believe the same things. We confirm our beliefs by confirming
that others act like us. Hence lays the importance, communally, for religious
congregations to have regular meetings. They allow people to get together, act
in similar ways, and engage in similar rituals. By engaging in similar rituals
people affirm and confirm to each other that their beliefs are shared and,
thus, real.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But
Mathieu insists on believing before joining rather than joining and then
believing. This is the constant battle for evangelical Christians. They spend
most of their evangelical activities trying to convince people to believe. “If
you will just believe,” they say, “then God will take care of you. But he will
not take care of you until you believe.” “Well,” says Mathieu, “I do not see
God taking care of anyone, so how can I believe.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Elder Kurt talks
about the idea of a “church.” In his eyes the people are the church, they are
the body of Christ themselves. Churches are not buildings, places, or names.
They are people. He sees most people as being fooled by their religions. They
think if they go to a building once a week they are religious. No. Being
religious is being chosen by Christ and then <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">acting</i> on Christ’s acceptance of you. Being religious is continuous
sacrificial action. Not sacrificial in the sense of giving up a goat or your
child, but a sacrifice of your time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Morty of The
Baptist Church explains the idea of acting like a Christian thusly:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -1.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think that
it’s an attitude that is not maybe a conscious one a lot of times, but it is
imbedded. “I am safe, I am going to heaven.” There is a lot of criticism of
people that believe we are saved by faith, not by works, because it means you
can pretty much say, “Hey, I am saved. I can do whatever I want,” which is
directly against the Word of God. Nobody that is saved would believe that at
all. But we do have a lot of freedom to work out our salvation in the sense of
practicing it. We have a lot of freedom. We do not have a Prophet or a Pope or
a President or anybody else telling us “This is what you have to believe and
how you live” and all that. We go strictly, like I said, by the Bible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Judaism,
as another example, is more than a religion, it is a whole way of life
concerned with all aspects of living (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Gross</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1992: 92). Its stories offer laws, rules, and customs that, if believed, bring
peace and fulfillment to human beings. To be a Jew is to act out these stories,
whatever that might mean to the individual and the community in which they
interact.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Similarly<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">, </b>the study of the Law, as laid down by
God, is of primary concern for Muslims (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962: 92). God made rules and enforced them upon people. To be
a Muslim, then, is to follow God’s Rules. The five pillars of Islam – prayer,
fasting, almsgiving, pilgrimage, and profession of faith – are the core to the
acting out of Muslim identity belief stories (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962: 95). These are things Muslims do. If you do them, then
you are Muslim. If you do not, you are not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Muslim
law orders men to do good and reject what is reprehensible (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962: 125). It is a belief story that suggests/demands a way of
living that presents an identity. The law is meant to give religious value to
every aspect of life (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1962: 132). The law, as a belief story, provides identity consistency for
believers across situations. By living the Law, one shows to one’s self and to
others that one is, indeed, a Muslim.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Empirical
Example: Calvary Chapel<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What follows is
copied and pasted from Calvary Chapel St. George’s “What We Believe” webpage
(http://www.calvarysg.com/about/what-we-believe/).</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn14" name="_ftnref14" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn14;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> I present it as an empirical example of how one congregation’s
written belief story can be seen as a call to action for its members. I
interpret it paragraph-by-paragraph.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 5.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Calvary
Chapel has been formed as a fellowship of believers in the Lordship of Jesus
Christ. Our supreme desire is to know Christ and be conformed to His image by
the power of the Holy Spirit. We are not a denominational church, nor are we
opposed to denominations as such, only to their over-emphasis of the doctrinal
differences that have led to the division of the Body of Christ.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There is the word
“fellowship.” Elder Kurt of The Christian Church uses this term to refer to his
congregation. It is a term used intentionally by numerous religious groups that
call themselves Christian or non-denominational Christians. This is a
fellowship based on a shared (interpersonal) belief in the “Lordship of Jesus
Christ.” There is a shared understanding among members of Calvary Chapel that
each and every member believes in this Lordship of Jesus Christ. Symbolic
interactionally this means that when Calvary members are in each others’
presences they present themselves as believers in the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
When they role take, looking at themselves as they think other members look at
them, they hope to see someone (themselves) who looks as if they believe in the
Lordship of Jesus Christ. If they do not see this, and if they want to be seen
like this, they will adjust their behaviors so as to see themselves, through
the eyes of others, as someone who believes in the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Members will also be prepared to help other members present themselves in the
best possible light as a believer in the Lordship of Jesus Christ.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“Our
supreme desire is to know Christ and be conformed to His image by the power of
the Holy Spirit.” </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">If this is
their desire then we would expect them to act as if it is. First, through mind
action, they will remind themselves and direct themselves to know Christ,
whatever that may mean. Elder Kurt talks about this and I have heard similar
lines elsewhere, they want to “conform” to His image, they want to be like
Christ. In role taking and mind action individual Calvary members present
themselves as Christ-like and then imagine how close others and themselves
think they are to being Christ-like and then adjust their behaviors to become
more Christ-like. They also judge others as to their approximation of
Christ-like presentations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The belief is that members will get to know and conform to
Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. These folks feel that God is
steering them toward and giving them the power to be like Christ. In everyday
behaviors, then, Calvary Chapel congregants keep an eye out for the Holy Spirit
to direct them towards being Christ-like. They talk with one another and
minister to each other about the Holy Spirit. They discuss what it is like to
perceive the Holy Spirit. They give examples, testimony, as to their own
interactions and observations of the Holy Spirit. In this way they construct
and maintain shared definitions of the situation concerning knowledge of the
Holy Spirit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“We are not
a denominational church, nor are we opposed to denominations as such, only to
their over-emphasis of the doctrinal differences that have led to the division
of the Body of Christ.” As </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Elder
Kurt suggests, churches are people, not buildings, not names like Catholic or
Protestant. The following of Christ is the following of the Bible, not of
doctrinal laws above and beyond it. Members of Calvary Chapel feel that any
doctrinal rules beyond the Bible are false and misleading. In their actions and
in the organization of the church they avoid anything above and beyond the
Bible. They feel these extra-doctrinal religions have divided the body of
Christ; the body being followers. These folks stress to one another that the
Bible is the sole authoritative voice of God. The emphasis on being
non-denominational is an emphasis on the belief that at its core, grace and
salvation are between an individual and God. Organized religion should not
muddy this up by creating a bunch of rules for showing one’s faith to others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
that the Bible (commonly called the Old and New Testaments) is the inerrant and
authoritative standard for life, faith and practice. (<u>Psalm 119:160</u>, <u>2
Timothy 3:15-17</u>; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=2Peter+1.20-21&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">2
Peter 1:20-21</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+17.17&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John
17:17</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Calvary Christians
believe that the Bible is the Word. It is an instruction manual for the big and
small pictures of life. It is authoritative, the final say in all matters. It
tells one how to act in situations. It declares what it means to have faith.
Therefore, Calvary Christians actively interpret and refer to the Bible in deciding
how to act. Calvary Christians regularly and systematically read the Bible,
individually and collectively. The Christian Satellite Network (CSN), the
station on which Calvary Chapel St. George advertises, has regular programs on
how to read the Bible and regular broadcasts of teachers interpreting the Bible
for listeners. Believers listen to these teachers for guidance on strategies
for reading and interpreting the Bible as a reference source on how to be a
faithful Christian and, thus, how to live one’s everyday life. Calvary
Christians use their interpretations of the Bible in defining everyday
situations and their places within them. They use their interpretations of the
Bible in role-taking with others in situations. They use their interpretations
of the Bible in mind action within themselves.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
that there is one living and true GOD, eternally existing in three persons: The
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, equal in power and glory. We believe that
the Trinity created all, upholds all, and governs all things (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Genesis+1.1&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Genesis
1:1</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Deuteronomy+6.4&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Deuteronomy
6:4</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Isaiah+44.8&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Isaiah
44:8</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">
and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Isaiah+48.16&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">48:16</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+28.19-20&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matthew
28:19-20</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+10.30&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John
10:30</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Hebrews+1.3&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Hebrews
1:3</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Calvary Christians
are steadfastly monotheistic. God is alive. God, though one person, has three
personages: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are all the same God and
are equally influential in guiding one’s behavior. Calvary Christians, then,
depending on the situation, will invoke one of the three personages of God in
explaining their behaviors or, conversely, in understanding the behaviors of
others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
in the person of God the Father—an infinite, eternal, personal Spirit—perfect
in holiness, wisdom, power, and love. We believe He concerns Himself mercifully
in the affairs of men, hears and answers prayer, and saves from sin and death
all those who come to Him through faith in Jesus Christ (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Deuteronomy+33.27&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Deuteronomy
33:27</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Psalms+90.2&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Psalms
90:2</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Psalms+102.27&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Psalms
102:27</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+3.16&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John
3:16</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">
and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+4.24&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">4:24</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Timothy+1.17&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Timothy 1:17</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Titus+1.3&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Titus
1:3</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here they refer to
God the Father as a “person” and a “Spirit.” God is everything, really. He is
infinite, without end. He is eternal, He has always been and will always be. He
is personal, He “hears and answers prayers.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The idea of a personal God helps in understanding the actions of
Calvary Christians. They believe and actively engage in prayer. On CSN the
speaker asked us if there were parts of the Bible we do not understand. Well,
of course there are. He then directed us to pray, right now, wherever we are
(in our car, at work, wherever). We can pray silently if we do not want others
to hear. We do not have to pray dangerously, if it will cause us to crash. But
we should pray about the passage in the Bible that we do not understand. God
will answer that prayer. It may be in a few seconds, it may be in a few days or
weeks. It might not be a direct answer. We may, for instance, be sitting in a
restaurant and overhear a conversation at another table and we will realize
that is God’s answer to our earlier prayer. Calvary Christians actively pray to
God and believe that He answers us. They actively seek out and identify objects
within their situations that are God objects. Their identification of God
objects within situations influences their actions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Calvary Christians role-take with God, an empirically fictional
character. This is the beauty of human language. It allows us to imagine others
who are not present in immediate situations. Language allows us to imagine
others from the past (What would Lincoln think of this?), from the future (What
would a twenty-second century woman think of my cell phone?), fictional
characters (What would Huckleberry Finn think?). Calvary Christians role-take
with God in all His forms. This is also evident in the oft-repeated idea that
God knows what we are up to. God is always with us. God sometimes punishes us
for our bad behaviors. God accepts us and freely gives us His Grace. To understand
the actions of Calvary Christians one must understand they actively and
consciously and encouragingly role-take with their perceptions of God, an
empirically fictional character.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 5.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
in the person of Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son, who was conceived by
the Holy Spirit. We believe in His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles,
teachings, substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into
heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and personal, visible return to
earth (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Isaiah+7.14&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Isaiah
7:14</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Micah+5.2&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Micah
5:2</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+1.23&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matthew
1:23</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Mark+16.19&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Mark
16:19</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Luke+1.34-35&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Luke
1:34-35</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+1.1-2&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John
1:1-2</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+8.58&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">8:58</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+11.25&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">11:25</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Corinthians+15.3-4&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Corinthians 15:3-4</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Timothy+3.16&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Timothy 3:16</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Hebrews+1.8&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Hebrews
1:8</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1John+1.2&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
John 1:2</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+1.8&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Revelation
1:8</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Jesus is the deal for
Calvary Christians as told in the above belief. Everything about Jesus is not
human. Jesus was conceived not by two humans, but by one human (Mary) and the
Holy Spirit (God). This has never happened, before or after. Jesus was sinless;
humans are nothing but sin. Jesus' death on the cross atoned for human sins;
his punishment was a substitute for our punishments. He came back from the
dead; this does not happen to humans.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Christian Satellite
Network speakers emphasize that we need to avoid Earthly, human things, like
sex and drugs and fantasies. We should not love Earthly life. Earthly life is
by definition sinful life. We must let Jesus be within us, literally. Calvary
Christians belief God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is within us, especially once we are
born again. We renounce Earthly life for a life of God. We are vessels, we are
not in control. God is in control. God steers us. A true Christian has little
to no concern about Earthly pleasures or displeasures. They allow God to guide
them at all times. Calvary Christians behave so as to be as they believe
someone who is guided by God will behave.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
in the person of the Holy Spirit—that He proceeds forth from the Father and Son
to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment; that He does
regenerate, sanctify, and empower for ministry all who believe the biblical
gospel (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Acts+1.8&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Acts
1:8</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=2Corinthians+3.18&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">2
Corinthians 3:18</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+16.8-11&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John
16:8-11</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Romans+8.26&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Romans
8:26</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">
and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Romans+15.13&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">15:13</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">,</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Romans+15.16&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">16</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Hebrews+9.14&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Hebrews
9:14</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Holy Spirit here
is a person, they state so loud and clear. He “proceeds forth from the Father
and Son.” His job is to convict the world, convict man. However, He also
regenerates, sanctifies, and empowers “all” who believe in the biblical gospel.
The Holy Spirit blesses with salvation those who believe in the Bible as God’s
word. Even while convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit, one can be born again and
be regenerated by the same Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God keeping an eye
on us.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and functions as their
abiding helper, teacher, and guide (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+16.13&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John
16:13</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+14.16-17&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">14:16-17</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+16.8-11&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">16:8-11</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Romans+8.26&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Romans
8:26</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).
We believe the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a distinct and separate
experience to that of regeneration, occurring either subsequent to, or
simultaneous with the experience of the new birth. We believe the baptism with
the Holy Spirit is evidenced in the Christian’s life as a dynamic enablement to
be a bold and more effective witness for the gospel. We believe that the
supreme evidence of the Spirit-filled life is the fruit of the Spirit, and love
(</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Galatians+5.22-23&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Galatians
5:22-23</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Corinthians+13&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Corinthians 13</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">). We believe in and advocate the present-day
ministry of the Holy Spirit in the church regarding the exercise of all
biblical gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to the instructions outlined in </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Corinthians+12-14&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Corinthians 12-14</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We can each be filled
with the Holy Spirit. Baptism with the Holy Spirit, say the Calvary Christians
according to the above paragraph, is different from being born again. These two
things may happen at separate times (baptism happening after being born again),
or they may happen simultaneously. Calvary Christians act based on their
perceptions that baptism with the Holy Spirit and being born again
(regeneration) are separate events.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 5.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
in the universal church—the living and organic spiritual body of people—of
which Christ is the Head and all who are born-again through faith in the
biblical gospel are a part (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matt.+16.18&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt.
16:18</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Corinthians+12.12-13&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Corinthians 12:12-13</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Ephesians+4.15-16&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ephesians
4:15-16</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The church is, as
stated above, a body of people. It is universal. Everyone on Earth is a
potential Christian, they need only repent and be born again, proclaiming
“faith in the biblical gospel.” That is it. Calvary Christians believe everyone
to be a potential Christian. God made everyone and will give grace to anyone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>To this end
Christians are evangelical. They would like nothing better, as they believe
Jesus would like nothing better, than to bring everyone to Him; to have
everyone on the planet repent and proclaim their faith in the biblical gospel
and Jesus Christ. We see this sort of evangelism in many places. I cooked and
ate a spaghetti squash from J & J Family Farms. The sticker on the squash
proudly proclaimed “John 14:6” with the Jesus fish after it. John 14:6 says the
only way to know God is through knowing Jesus. J & J Family Farms is
evangelizing on their fruit, hoping they can help an unsaved soul. It is common
to see people hold up John signs at sporting events. There was a bit of a
national scandal when it was discovered that some rifles U.S. soldiers were
using in Afghanistan and Iraq had biblical inscriptions in the barrels or
sights (Rhee et al 2010). It was evangelism in the form of taking Jesus to the
unsaved Muslims, or whoever was being shot at. Evangelism is an influential
object in the definitions of situations of many Christians.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
that the Lord Jesus Christ instituted two ordinances for the church: (a) full
immersion water baptism of believers in the gospel, and (b) the Lord’s Supper
(or communion) (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+28.19&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matthew
28:19</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Luke+22.19-20&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Luke
22:19-20</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Acts+2.38&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Acts
2:38</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Corinthians+11.23-26&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Corinthians 11:23-26</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ordinances are
religious laws believers feel are passed down from God.</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn15" name="_ftnref15" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn15;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> The above Calvary Christian paragraph suggests that Jesus
instituted two ordinances: (a) full-immersion baptism and (b) communion.
Calvary Christians believe that Christians, those who have been saved, are
full-immersed baptized and take communion. They act so as to make this happen.
They get baptized and take communion. If they do not do these things then they
will not be seen by self and others as saved Christians.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
in a literal Heaven and a literal Hell. All those who place their faith in the
gospel of Jesus Christ will spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord, while those
who reject Jesus’ free gift of salvation proclaimed in the gospel will spend
eternity separated from God and His people in hell (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Psalm+9.17&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Psalm
9:17</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+5.3&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matthew
5:3</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">,
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+5.22&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">5:22</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+18.9&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">18:9</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+25.31-34&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">25:31-34</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Mark+9.42-49&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Mark
9:42-49</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Luke+12.5&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Luke
12:5</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+3.18&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John
3:18</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Hebrews+12.23&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Hebrews
12:23</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Peter+1.4&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Peter 1:4</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+14.10-11&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Revelation
14:10-11</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+20.11-15&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">20:11-15</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Calvary Christians
believe heaven and hell really and actually exist. One gets to Heaven through
faith in Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. One gets to Hell through the rejection of such
faith. They believe life is the decision to have or reject faith. They live
their lives, as Calvary Christians, doing things that show to themselves and
others they place their faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. They will say God
is the only one they need present their faiths to. But as a social scientist
the only data I have suggest they present their faiths to (A) other people and
(B) themselves. The god to whom Calvary Christians form relationships is not
empirically falsifiable. To this end Calvary Christians have the perception of
God as an object, they construct and maintain this perception through
interactions with each other, and they perceive they can interact with Him.
They make behavioral decisions based on their perceptions of His place within
situations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The part about
“rejecting Jesus’ free gift” represents a schism within Christianity: Who gets
in to Heaven. By writing that those who reject Jesus’ gift they are leaving
open the possibility that those who never know about the gift might still get
in to Heaven. In The Fall of the Pagans (2011) we are told that a main sticking
point among bishops at the Council of Nicea (325 AD) was just this. Some felt
that no one without publicly proclaimed faith could get to Heaven, others felt
the only way to end up in Hell was, as the Calvary Christians believe, to know
about Jesus’ gift and openly reject it. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-Day Saints have a twist on this. They believe one does not advance in
one’s eternal progression without proclaimed faith, rejected or not. However,
they also believe in baptism of the dead because they believe that anyone
willing to obey the requirements of the law of God can be baptized. The
baptisms happen in LDS temples with a living Mormon being baptized, immersed,
in proxy for the dead person. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints only give dead people the opportunity to be saved. The dead person still
must accept Jesus or suffer eternal non-progression.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 5.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church through which all believers will
be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and be taken out of the world prior
to the Tribulation that will then come upon the earth (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Isaiah+26.20&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Isaiah
26:20</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+24.29-31&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matthew
24:29-31</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Luke+21.36&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Luke
21:36</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Romans+1.18&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Romans
1:18</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">,
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Romans+5.9&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">5:9</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Thessalonians+1.10&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1
Thessalonians 1:10</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Thessalonians+4.13-16&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">4:13-16</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=1Thessalonians+5.9&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">5:9</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=2Peter+2.7-9&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">2
Peter 2:7-9</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+3.10&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Revelation
3:10</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">,
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+5.7-10&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">5:7-10</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+7.13-14&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">7:13-14</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are three
theories of the Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, and Post-. In the Pre-Tribulation theory,
true believers left on Earth are transformed into their spiritual selves and
lifted into heaven, by God, prior to the final seven years of horror (the
Tribulation). In Post-Tribulation, true believing Christians are left on Earth
to witness the horrors of the Tribulation. True believers are protected from
the horror, but they are witnesses. At the end, true believers are lifted up.
The Mid-Tribulation theory is just that, true believers are lifted up midway
through the seven years. Calvary Christians, as the above paragraph states, are
Pre-Tribulation believers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here, of course, is a
place where Christians have trouble explaining themselves to many people.
Leaders of some sects will make statements about when the Tribulation will
begin, or that it already has begun, and about when the Rapture will occur.
Sometimes these leaders claim a specific date for the Rapture and, when it does
not happen, they need to explain themselves. When the Fundamentalist Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints leadership claimed Rapture for September 15,
2000, and it did not happen, they claimed there were infidels among the crowd
that had gathered at Centennial Park in Colorado City, Arizona. Because of
this, God did not lift them up. Therefore, some more housecleaning in the form
of ridding themselves of infidels needs to happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We believe
the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a personal, visible return to earth.
Second Coming will coincide with the establishment of His millennial kingdom,
the resurrection, final judgment, eternal blessing of the righteous, and
eternal condemnation of the wicked (</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Matthew+16.27&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matthew
16:27</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">; </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Acts+1.11&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Acts
1:11</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">;
</span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+19.11-16&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Revelation
19:11-16</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, </span><a href="http://www.blb.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Revelation+20.11-15&t=NKJV"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">20:11-15</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Calvary Christians
live their lives in expectation of the Second Coming of Jesus as a “personal,
visible” event. They expect great things to happen when he comes. They must be
ready, He may come at any time. Belief in the story leads to observable action
which leads to confirmation of an identity as, in this case, a Calvary
Christian.</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
Leaders<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
formal presentation of congregational belief stories is in the hands of
religious leaders (pastors, priests, imams). Because congregants see leaders as
having expertise and peculiar relationships with god, they listen to their
stories. Consequently, parishioners act based on their acceptance of their
leaders’ belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Priests
(pastors) have a combination of three social characteristics (status/roles) (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Weber 1978:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 425). First, they appear to others to have the ability to
influence God and/or be directly influenced by Him. Second, they have a role in
the social organization of religious communities; they are managers and
producers. Third, they have specialized professional knowledge. These three
characteristics, though theoretically distinct, are intertwined in the
empirical world. By virtue of having a direct relationship with God
(characteristic #1) a priest is seen to have specialized professional knowledge
(#3) and, thus, are given the right to lead the congregational organizational
team (#2).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Religious leaders
construct and imbed sacred norms into the institutional structure of the faith;
they have the ability to inject belief stories into canon. They have the authority
to put forth belief stories and have members buy into them. They have more
power than rank and file members to influence the belief stories, and thus the
actions, of the faithful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Religious leaders
offer help and understanding to parishioners in difficult times. Bainbridge
gives the accounts of Charles W. Colson, special counsel to President Richard
M. Nixon, and Jeb Stuart Magruder, deputy director of Nixon’s re-election
campaign. Colson and Magruder were both caught up in the investigations into
crimes committed by Nixon aides in the Watergate scandal; “both sought help
from a high-status person involved in religion” to help them through their
crises (Bainbridge 1997: 273). This is not uncommon. Religious folk often seek
help from clergy, especially when they are going through troubling times.
Clergy provide comforting belief stories and suggestions for action that help
people make sense of and deal with life events.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Leaders
Teach Stories</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are many
teachers/preachers out there helping us understand either the rational rules of
our chosen religion or the stories and lessons of the Bible, or both. At the
most rational level, Weber’s rational, congregations have leaders and positions
from the bottom to the top of their fellowships. Certain folk have the
responsibilities of teaching others. In The Christian Church (TCC), Elder Kurt
leads sermons and Bible studies. He spends a lot of time preparing for these
lessons in the same ways that teachers prepare for their classes. Elder Kurt’s
job is to teach the TCC fellowship what it means to be whoever it is they want
to be. Similarly, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints there are
Home Teachers who visit other members, at home, and go over Church doctrine.
Missionaries teach gentiles how to become Church members.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A pastor on the
Christian Satellite Network was telling listeners how he reads the Bible. He
presented himself as an expert on and teacher of the Bible, this is why he is
on the radio in the first place, and a certain segment of Christians and radio
sponsors believe him to be an expert, so they listen to him. As an expert in a
faith that emphasizes regular Bible reading he is giving us strategies for such
reading. We, being his fellowship of students, will take into account what he
tells us for, as mentioned, he knows of what he speaks. Here is what he does:
You know how most bibles have one attached ribbon that works as a book mark?
Well, one can buy ribbon add-ons, which is what Speaker does. He has eight or
nine add-ons. He separates the Bible up into sections, each section getting its
own ribbon. The sections include: the Torah, Psalms, Proverbs, Prophets,
Epistles, Revelation. Since sometime in late high school or early college he
has read the Bible every day, first thing in the morning, for one hour. But he
does not read it straight from beginning to end. He reads one full chapter from
each of the sections he has marked. This way he gets information and
understanding from all different parts of the Bible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Ed, as an example
of teaching congregants how to act, gave the following account of how he
encourages a group to pay forward the gift of a new meeting place:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One of the things I
said to our congregation when we got into the first building was, “We are not
in debt, but we really are. Someday if we can do this for another church, we
need to do this.” Mountain View Bible Church in La Verkin, a few years later,
outgrew their building. We had about forty people coming from the La
Verkin/Hurricane area. We felt like it was time to repay that debt. We found
land and the church bought it. This church built Mountain View Church. I spoke
at their dedication service. I said, “You are not in debt but you are in debt.
Someday, if you can do this for another church, you need to do this.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sumerau and
Cragun<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> </b></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">show how leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints organize the social lives of their followers (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sumerau and
Cragun</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2015: 51). Leaders in the Church demand
more commitment from members than leaders in other churches; it is “the LDS
Church is a cult” argument that often non-members often bring up in discussions
about the church. But let me step back from the moral stand and assume the
authors have a point, that the LDS Church is a more cohesive organization than
many, if not most, Christian churches. If true, the argument goes, it means
that leaders in tight cohesive religions do have an ability to directly
influence the social lives of their followers. The belief stories leaders tell
are direct messages to followers: dress modestly, do not drink alcohol, no sex
before marriage, do not watch ‘R’ rated movies. Church members take leaders’
belief stories to heart, repeat them to each other in everyday situations, and
act based on these beliefs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Modern
individuals are dependent on personal concerns as guides to action (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Martí</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2015: 8). People must “judge for themselves” if a given belief
story is correct. Therefore, religious “leaders” assure their flocks that their
individual beliefs are, indeed, correct. “See for yourself,” they say. Leaders,
pastors, may even try to constrain how followers see themselves. “You’ve looked
around,” they say, “and you know that we are the correct story.” Or, “Pray. You
will see that Jesus will take you on the right path and verify your
inner-beliefs.” It is through more or less solid rhetorical speech that
religious leaders convince people to adopt one belief story or another.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Morty tells
how Baptist missionaries use rhetorical belief stories to convince others to
support their endeavors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What we did at that
time, we had a slide presentation, now they have PowerPoint and computers and
the whole bit, but at that time we showed slides to their whole church, and
preached, and sometimes they had missionary conferences for a few days where
every night they’d have a service and invite missionaries that they support or
some that are looking for support come in and do their thing. After you’ve been
there a lot of times they will decide “maybe we want to take this family on for
support.”<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Missionaries, in Pastor Morty’s tale, use belief stories to
convince other believers of a reality that makes them deserving of the
congregation’s financial support.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Leading
a religious service is advertising and art rolled-up in one. It is what author
Joe Carducci (1990) calls “attack” in a rock and roll band. A band has attack
when it performs in such a way as to demand audience attention. Preachers do
this too. An important part of religious service belief story performances is
the attack quotient of the preacher: do they grab your attention? Do they dare
you to ignore them? Do they force you to make a choice with your religious
identity? It is through rhetorical practices that religious leaders convince
listeners to believe one story over another and, thus, act as if one story is
truth while another is not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Being religious,
then, is an active endeavor. As shown in this chapter, people show themselves
and others their religious inclinations through belief story actions, and
cultures provide avenues for people to do so. Often times belief stories are
told through written professions of faith, as in the case of Calvary
Christians, and sometimes they are told by congregational leaders in their
services. It is in the internalization of such stories that reality comes to
be, and actions are performed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Chapter 8<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Literary Belief Stories: </span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
Texts Provide Stories for Living<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #00b0f0; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">A characteristic of people in rational societies is that they
write things down. Legal systems, for instance, are based on written precedent.
Games are played based on rulebooks. Food is prepared with recipes. Behaviors
in bureaucratic organizations are controlled using written policies and
procedures. The formal beliefs stories of religious folk are written as
doctrine in sacred texts such as the Quran, Bible, and Torah. These belief
stories guide both how people go about their religious activities and how they
behave in everyday life. In this chapter, using primary and literary data, I
highlight some ways people understand religious texts as belief stories and how
they act based on these interpretations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Religious
texts are products of their historical and cultural times (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Aslan</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2005: 71). Generations of believers mold scripture into stories
for their own times. Religious people use scriptural stories to guide their own
belief stories as instructions for everyday living. Three examples to start
will provide a framework for the rest of the chapter. The first is a quote from
Pastor Paul, the second is from my field notes about a broadcast on the
Christian Satellite Network (CSN), the third is a story from Pastor Ed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the first example,
Pastor Paul explains the importance of understanding the Bible as the inspired
and truthful Word of God. If it is not, it can be ignored. But if it is, as Pastor
Paul believes, the Truth, then its precepts must be followed on a daily basis;
one must live one’s life according to what is laid out in the book.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>If God is God and
those attributes are all right, then this Bible has to be flawless or
worthless. It cannot be any in between. I started to do this research. “I have
to find out if I can reconcile Christianity and thinking and an academic
approach to things.” My conclusion was unless the first five chapters of the
Book of Genesis are truth – that would be creation through the flood – then what
good is a dead Jewish carpenter with a missing body gonna do me? The short
version is, what is the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus Christ gonna
do for me if the Bible is already flawed at the front? That conclusion led me
to accept the basic premise that the Bible is the inspired word of God, that
every word in it is true and accurate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A pastor on the
Christian Satellite Network discussed some guiding principles for successful
marriages found in the Bible. The pastor is a teacher, the listeners are
students who take what he says, read their Bibles, and construct and act out
belief stories based on this guidance. The following excerpt is from my field
notes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A pastor on CSN was
talking about marriages and what we should do to maintain a happy marriage and
what not to do to avoid a bad marriage. The pastor was pointing to spots in the
Gospels where instructions are given to us about how to maintain happy,
biblically correct, marriages. The insinuation is that the Bible offers all we
need to live a successful life, one that follows Jesus. All the instructions
are there, just read and listen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the next example Pastor
Ed tells the story of Christ’s last living moment as guidance for the
importance of living a faithful life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PE:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>God sent his son, Jesus
Christ, to this Earth for the purpose of being our sacrificial lamb. When John
the Baptist saw him he said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of
the world.” But unlike the Old Testament lambs which were a picture of Christ,
Christ was a fulfillment of that. When he went to the cross of Calvary,
willingly, knowing what he was doing, he paid for the sins of mankind. In full.
When He said, “It is finished,” it wasn’t that his life was finished, he’d
finished paying for sin and then it says he gave up his spirit. He died on the
cross for my sins, for your sins, for the sins of all mankind. He was buried
and rose again the third day. He is seated at the right hand of God today.
Through the Bible, through His Word, He has made it known to us that we can be
saved from the penalty of our sin. What is that penalty? The Bible says the
wages of sin is death. It is not just talking about physical death, it is
talking about eternal death. If you go to the book of Revelation it talks about
the second death where people who did not put their faith and trust in Christ
as their Savior, stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment, God
demonstrates to them that they did not get saved, and he then gives them their
sentence which is the Lake of Fire, eternal separation from God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Following Pastor Ed’s advice, then, means living a life that
follows Biblical instructions. One does not at one’s own expense. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the rest of the
chapter I provide examples from my field notes and interviews, as well as from literature,
of how people use sacred texts in constructions of their own belief stories and
actions.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Bible as
Literature<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One way to view the
Bible is as literature, as Father Tom of the Episcopal Church does below. In
his teachings, Father Tom suggests the Bible contains stories of gathering,
cohesion, and the beauties of communal living. The beliefs and creeds of the
Bible, as he says, are secondary.<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We are reading the
Bible as literature, which is how I think it actually should be read. Not for
beliefs and creeds. I think that’s secondary. Or even moral codes. It is the
stories of people gathering themselves as communities with the idea of being
one God and a revelation they experienced, how that’s interpreted over the
years and how it is evolved. So for me it really is a story of a people of
faith, and as literature. I think it gets reduced when you talk about beliefs
and creeds, and a lot of people interpret it that way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Biblical
Prophecy<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Many see current
events through the lens of the Bible. Evangelical Christians, especially, see
the Bible as prophesying about past, present, and future events. Pastor Morty
discusses Biblical prophecy in the following conversation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PM:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Like I said, we are
all in the same boat. There’s been a lot of talk lately about, I don’t know if
you’ve heard much about the blood moon prophecies and things like that in
recent culture. There’s been books written about the blood moon that’s coming
up in September and every time that comes up, about every certain number of
years, there’s some big event that happens, usually concerning Israel. There
are books written that maybe this is the beginning of the Revelation/Apocalypse
and all that. Different things with the Mayan calendar, Omega Code, various
things like that that have come out over the years have all been flash in the
pans. They come and go and then they’re forgotten. I imagine this current
phenomenon will be, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span>On the other hand,
if it did happen, it wouldn’t surprise me, cuz we have seen a lot of Biblical
prophecy coming true in my lifetime that were spoken of by Jesus a long time
ago. A lot of it is coming to pass in my lifetime. It is a pretty exciting time
to live in that sense. The only question is, how long will it keep going?
That’s what nobody knows.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span>Even in the 1<span style="mso-text-raise: 2.5pt; position: relative; top: -2.5pt;">st</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Century writers of some of the New Testament
Epistles spoke of themselves being in the, quote/unquote, last days. I think
the last days started when Jesus went back to heaven. I think there is
scriptural evidence for that in the New Testament. As we have gone on we have
seen things like Israel becoming a nation in 1948, it was huge. That’s a
Biblical prophecy come to pass. The fact that they’re still here, they’ve had
successful wars in the last fifty/sixty years. God’s hand seems to be upon
them. All that is Biblical, Old Testament prophecy coming to pass. It makes a
lot of people believe that maybe the current events are significant in that
way. I have always been skeptical of what people say and some of what they
believe and why they believe it but, like I said, nothing would surprise me if
Rapture occurred tomorrow, a lot of us wouldn’t be here anymore, we’d be in
heaven.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Those who believe stories such as Pastor Morty’s, Baptists in
this case, live in expectation of Jesus’ return to earth. They organize their
lives with such expectations: being good Christians and stockpiling supplies,
for instance. Pastor Morty’s is a story shared and lived by many.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">“The Record
of Zeniff”<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A story from the book
of Mosiah in the Book of Mormon, “The Record of Zeniff,” is a classic example
of a belief story told and acted upon within Christianity generally. It is the
story of the movement of a group of Nephites from the land of Zarahemla (around
200 B.C.) to the land of Lehi-Nephi. The story is contained on gold plates in a
language of God that only certain seers can read and translate; the plates were
translated by Joseph Smith.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Zeniff leads “his
people” from Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi. The problem is that Lehi-Nephi is
controlled by Lamanites. The Lamanites, descendents of the oldest son of Nephi,
did not like the Nephites for some things that happened generations earlier. As
a result, they would not accept the gospel. The Lamanites told Zeniff that he
and his people could have Lehi-Nephi. However, it was a trick, a patient trick.
Twenty-two years later the Lamanites rolled in and tried to enslave Zeniff’s
people. They failed. A few years later, they tried again and failed. But when
Zeniff passed control of the people to Noah, it happened. Noah liked partying
and women. He let his guard down and the Lamanites took over.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is a parable. Be
careful. Evil, Satan, is relentless in his pursuit of our souls. He is patient.
He will try all sorts of methods. We must keep our guards up. Loose and sinful
behavior is an example of letting our guard down; the devil will take advantage
of this. Always be alert and on your best behavior. A lesson can be learned
from the story of Zeniff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The “Record of
Zeniff” continues. A prophet named Abinadi was sent by God to Lehi-Nephi to try
and set things straight among the people, for they were following Noah down a
path of sin. Abinadi speaks to King Noah and his priests, telling them the
story that they and their people need to repent and start living a godly life.
He also prophesied that God would come back and walk the Earth in human form
going by “Christ.” King Noah did not like this tale. He wanted to kick Abinadi
out of Lehi-Nephi but his priests convinced him to have Abinadi killed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A priest named Alma
believed Abinadi’s story. King Noah sent his guys after Alma. Alma left for the
wilderness and wrote down everything that Abinadi said. He gained a following.
He camped out by a body of water called Mormon. He ran a fellowship there.
People from Lehi-Nephi sneaked out of town to attend. Alma baptized 200+ people
in the waters of Mormon. King Noah found out what was going on and sent his
thugs to get Alma. Alma and his fellowship fled into the wilderness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This story is common
throughout the Bible and the Book of Mormon, it is common throughout
Christianity even to this day. As a religion becomes rational and
institutional, people come along and accuse it of selling out. The rationalized
religion is said to be more concerned with its own well-being than with God’s
salvation. As the new guys, the ones accusing the rationalized church of
selling out, gain followers and reputation, the rationalized church attempts to
shut them down.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The sell out story is
so common as to be expected and presented as truth by both rationalized and
upstart churches. Elder Kurt speaks of how the mainstream churches are not real
and must be avoided by true Christians. Mainstream churches warn their members
of new false Christianities that are, more often than not, instruments of the
devil.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A pastor on CSN told
a story about how God will sometimes use our enemies against us in order to
turn us onto the righteous path. See, Christians sin. Lo, even those who have
repented and received God’s grace sin. How does one know when one has sinned?
God will resist you. One way He does so is to help out one’s enemies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the book of Mosiah
and, more specifically, the “Record of Zennif,” when the Lamanites finally
decide to retake Lehi-Nephi during King Noah's reign, it was God sending a
message to the Nephites of Lehi-Nephi. Noah was ruling over a people who were
partying, sexing, and generally not following the law nor having true faith in
God.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The result was that Noah and his
priests ran and hid in the wilderness, Noah gets killed by one of his own while
in the wilderness, and the remaining Nephites agree to live in bondage to the
Lamanites in Lehi-Nephi. Eventually, as the Book of Mosiah goes, the in-bondage
Nephites are set free and return to Zarahemla with Zennif (much like Moses
leading Jews out of Egypt). God helped the Lamanites conquer the Nephites in
order to wake up the latter to their spiritual inequities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The message of “The
Record of Zeniff” is clear. Try not to sin and expect pushback from God when
you do. Christians tell this story in many ways and live it in just as many.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Church
Eats Meals Together<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Religious
congregations often organize their activities according to what they see as
Biblical teachings, one of which is sharing meals. Here Pastor Paul of the Four
Square Church discusses how their Sunday lunch service is directly related to
the Book of Acts in the Christian Bible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Grapevine in Las
Vegas has a food pantry. I mentioned Angelus Temple. It is in our DNA. Angelus
Temple fed more people than the State of California during the Depression. It
is certainly in Four Square’s DNA. It fits within the model of
interdenominational worldwide evangelism. It fits in the denomination of
meeting the needs of the people. It fits within the Book of Acts model for the
Church. The Church in the Book of Acts shared their meals together. If you read
the Book of Acts, those first Christians, they met together on the first day of
the week, which was Sunday. They had their meals together, they were a family
unit. So food is an integral part of Biblical Christianity as it was practiced
in the 1<span style="mso-text-raise: 2.5pt; position: relative; top: -2.5pt;">st</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Century, which is what we try to pattern our
church after. Remember, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is
how he designed this thing. Food is also a great bridge of outreach to be able
to have conversation, develop relationships, and connect people with needs that
will change their life both spiritual and physical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Accordingly, the Four Square Church offers a free feast every
Sunday immediately following their service. The food for the feast is prepared
on site, tables are set, and folks gather and eat together. Congregants of the
church mingle with others in the community who are in need of a meal. It is in
their (Biblical) DNA, as Pastor Paul states, to both serve the community and
have meals together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Concordances<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Religious folk have
to be careful when reading scripture as it is often written in unknown or old
fashion languages. In such situations readers resort to concordances, listings
of words and phrases found in scripture translated for modern readers. In the
following excerpt, Pastor Paul tells how he uses concordances in his religious
studies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The good news is we
live in a computer age. So, yes, I have Greek concordances, Hebrew
concordances, I’ve got an entire library of them. I will tell you that I rarely
dust those books off any more because it is a lot easier to click on the
computer especially since I am bi-vocational and don’t have 40-60 hours a week
study time. I’ve got maybe 20 hours a week study time. I save a lot of that
time by going to Greek concordances on the computer. With a simple click I can
get to the original language, I can get to the context, then I can go and do a
search, if I need historical background for what was going on historically. I
try to bring some of that out in our teaching on Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Understanding what is said in the Bible, then, is not straight
forward. Concordances and translations are consulted, study is needed, and
classes taken to come to decisions about stories told therein.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Dispensationalism</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">According
to Barbara Rossing (2004), dispensationalists argue God has divided history
into distinct periods. They believe “Israel’s prophetic stopwatch has been
stopped now for the past two thousand years.” Any minute now God will remove
true Christian believers from the earth in Rapture, keeping the church
completely separate from Israel. Once the framework of dispensationalist
Rapture was accepted as a belief story, other prophetic Scripture was made to
fit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Dispensationalists,
writes Rossing, see the scriptural Book of Revelation as a war story. They
crave Armageddon, the main event, even though the actual word Armageddon appears
only once in the entire book. Rossing feels we should be outraged that
Americans who express the dispensationalist belief story export war around the
world in hopes of bringing about end times.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The belief in
Armageddon as told in Revelation, in Rossing’s story, guides international
policy in the United States. There is little room for compromise when arguing
with dispensationalists; they have a story that is inflexible. The
dispensationalist story used to make Revelation “easy and fun” is a fabrication
based on a false view of prophecy. Dispensationalist theology is deterministic,
history written in advance. As such, it leads to complacency. The
dispensationalist theological view provides a false view of God, claiming His
existence in cataclysmic events like wars, famines, and natural disasters.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Rossing’s story is
that, though written to increase a sense of urgency, Revelation is not a book
written to inspire fear. The dispensationalist chronology, on the other hand,
is a fabrication, creating a comprehensive, overarching narrative that inspires
fear and appeals to people looking for clear-cut answers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">There
is hope for our world, writes Rossing, in the message of Revelation. John wrote
the book as a counter-message to the Roman empire’s theology of Victory. It is
the story of a lamb standing up to an oppressive system. John labels God’s
people as victors or conquerors from the outset of the book, challenging Rome’s
imperial theology. Revelation redefines “conquer” as victory by God’s people
using testimony and faith rather than violence. God’s people are peaceful, God
is peaceful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Revelation’s overall
story is one of repentance, writes Rossing. Contrary to the dispensationalist
argument, there is no rapture in Revelation where people are snatched up from
earth up to heaven. If anything, God is Raptured down to earth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
above example highlights the ambiguities that arise as different Christian
factions create stories out of the Bible’s words. Rossing’s Lutheran
perspective interprets Revelation as a story of peace and accuses other
perspectives as seeing it as a story of fear and violent conquest. These
interpretations of scripture lead to different life behaviors. For instance,
many Evangelical Christian groups preach preparedness on this earth for end
times: storing food and water, being prepared to survive on one’s own for
awhile, going along with their belief in an apocalyptic future.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Offerings
and Tithing<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Financial offerings
and tithing are the backbone of most religious congregations; people’s
donations are how they stay afloat. Pastor Ed of the Bible Church explains his
call for offerings with reference to the Bible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PE:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The New Testament
does not teach tithing. It teaches that each man gives as he feels led of God
to give what he feels he should. There’s a couple principles that God gives in
his word. One is, instead of waiting to the end of the week after you’ve spent
everything on your pay check, you pray about it up front and you set that money
aside, then you give it on the first day of the week, which is Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Differing belief stories lead to differing ways of collecting
tithes from congregational members. Many churches pass around a basket from
member to member in which they can put checks or cash. Others have a bowl or
basket as members walk in to the service. Some keep track of how much each
member contributes, others do not. Some pastors have a regular tithing sermon
encouraging members to donate, others never bring it up. All religious leaders,
however, are able to point to a Biblical passage or two, as Pastor Ed does
above, that justifies their tithe collecting strategy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Pentecost<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the next quote Father
Tom of the Episcopal Church makes a connection between the Pentecost, as
described in the Bible, and the everyday lives of everyday people. The Bible,
he suggests, is a great source for understanding the human condition. <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So the Pentecost. .
.The story is, they were praying, the sound of a rushing wind, tongues of fire,
speaking in tongues, however you understand that, but they experienced the same
sense of presence. Which may happen in life. Church, out of church. Sailing.
Running. Love. Combat. Life and death. Solitude. Transcendent, heightened
ecstatic experiences for me are naturally human experiences that often times
are too badly reduced to church when they’re naturally human appearing.
Sailing. We have all experienced what Maslow called peak experiences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Father Tom is suggesting that the feelings that overcame the
apostles during Pentecost were not miraculous, they were mundanely sublime
human experiences. People spend much of their lives chasing such experiences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Abraham
and the Correct Christian Life<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Quran reminds Muslims that what they are reading or hearing is not new, it is
the confirmation of previous scriptures (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Aslan</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>2005: 100). The Muslim belief story,
like the Christian one before it, is a continuation, a confirmation, of stories
already told – Christian and Judaic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Arab
origin belief stories suggest the Ka’ba was founded by Adam, the first man (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Aslan</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2005: 4). Jewish, Christian, and Muslim identity stories begin
at the same place. Similarly, Jews and Arabs both consider themselves
descendants of Abraham. Again, they share belief origin stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
starting point for Islamic belief and identity is that God has spoken to man
through the Quran (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1962: 15). As with Christianity and the Bible, many Muslims believe the Quran
is the literal Word of God. Therefore, the story is His, not theirs. Their
story is His.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Quran reminds people that they are surrounded by God’s handiwork; it expresses
astonishment that they can be so blind as not to remember the Creator (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962: 24). Islamic belief stories warn readers not to forget
the Creator, to always remember that God is the maker of all, that your
identity is God’s making.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Abraham
is seen as the prototypical Muslim (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962: 26). He came to the recognition of monotheism through
reason. Though Christians and Jews claim him, he is neither. He is simply a man
who submitted himself to God: a Muslim. Abraham, in Muslim belief stories, is
an ideal type, someone who Muslims should emulate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Muhammad,
as Prophet, is also an identity model for Muslims (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962: 84-85). Everything he did after the beginning of the
Revelation was preserved by God. Therefore, everything he did was right and to
be emulated. A good Muslim will behave as the Prophet. This is not dissimilar
to “What Would Jesus Do,” but more intensely focused. What does it mean to be a
Muslim? How should a Muslim act? Mimic Muhammad and Abraham. Characters from
sacred texts provide insights into how to live in this world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
stories of the Quran are based on myth, but this does not mean they are false (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Aslan</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2005: xxiv). What it means is they are belief stories that
convey meaning for people to adopt personal identities and, thus, have guidance
in their actions. The Quran consists of religious and social verses. Similarly,
then, it consists of religious and social belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In The
Lutheran Church Bible Study we went over the story of Abraham. Pastor Gordon
emphasized Abraham’s fidelity to God. Abraham was a correct Christian. He was
all in. He followed God’s commands without question. When God commanded Abraham
to take Isaac to Moriah and sacrifice him, Abraham was up early the next
morning to start the three-day journey. He got all the way to the point where
he had bound Isaac and had a knife in his hand before an angel of God told him
to stop.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
story of Abraham is, for Pastor Gordon, the story of a correct Christian.
Correct Christians have built a reality around stories like Abraham’s.
Certainly Pastor Gordon does. He often speaks of God being autonomous and in
charge. We humans have no power to shape our celestial lives and, indeed, much
of what happens here on Earth is way beyond our control.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How
does a correct Christian act in a correct reality as just mentioned? They
believe that the Bible contains all we need to know. Pastor Gordon literally
points his finger at the Bible and says things like, “If it isn’t in there,
then it is up to us,” or “If it is in there then it is a command or a promise.”
Today, for instance, we got on the subject of alcohol. “The Bible never says a
Christian cannot drink,” said Pastor Gordon. “I don’t know where people get
this stuff.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The idea is that a correct Christian lives in a
reality circumscribed by the Bible and acts in ways they feel are consistent
with this reality. Pastor Gordon, for instance, likes to have a beer or two
once in awhile and sees no biblical reason not to. He sees homosexuality as a
sin because he finds it in the Bible. This is his reality and he acts within
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Speaking
in Tongues<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Members of the
Pentecostal branch of evangelical Christianity believe that God gifts people
with a language that only He can understand. This is called “speaking in
tongues.” In the passage that follows, Pastor Paul explains the difference
between honest to goodness tongues and the (unbiblical) behaviors I told him I
witnessed at another Pentecostal Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PP:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are biblically
acceptable uses of tongues in a public setting. Here’s what the Bible says
about tongues. The statement of faith is the same for Assemblies of God</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn16" name="_ftnref16" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn16;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[16]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">. I do believe, and I am not talking about the specific
Assemblies of God Church you went to, because I have never been to one of their
services. I can tell you what I believe about tongues, and what I believe about
genuine Pentecostal Christianity as God has shown it to me and as it is
practiced in most Four Square Churches. I will tell you that I have been to a
Four Square Church where I walked in the door and the Holy Spirit impressed
upon me immediately that what I was about to see was not Him. What I saw was a
pastor laying on the ground making noises, people falling out on the floor,
making animal sounds, chaos in the service. As clear as anything else I have
heard from God, He said, “I need you to see this. This is not Me.” I decided I
needed to understand the proper place for the Pentecostal movement and what
tongues really is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span>The public
display of tongues is for the edification of the body and to reach the
unbeliever. If someone breaks out into tongues in a proper, healthy Pentecostal
Church, it would be one individual who suddenly breaks out in a public display
of tongues. At that point, we are mandated that everything stops. We just stop
the service. If we are in the middle of a worship set and somebody breaks out
in tongues, we are stopping right then and there, and we are waiting for what
the Bible says is going to happen next, and that’s the interpretation. At that
point someone is going to receive the message of what was just said. In a
public display of tongues, the Biblical reference for this is in 1 Corinthians
because Paul went into a church where there was chaos and people talking in
tongues and he said, “This isn’t God.” If someone speaks in tongues it is gonna
be one or two people and it will always be accompanied by an interpretation. It
is probably not the person who spoke in tongues that would be the one interpreting
it, although that wouldn’t be impossible. Usually there’s somebody in the room
who is just shaking in their seat because they know they just got the
interpretation and they’re afraid to say it, or they’re mature enough in their
Christianity that they’re willing to say it and we’ll receive that
interpretation. Then we’ll move on with service and praise God. If no
interpretation comes and I sense that somebody was just acting out I will cover
that and speak to it and then counsel that person privately later that maybe
they were not hearing from God because we did not receive interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span>Look. Rolling
on the floor, making animal sounds, is nowhere in the Bible. It is just not
Biblical, it is not scriptural. If there is a Pentecostal Church that is having
chaos, I call that a dog and pony show, not a move of the Holy Spirit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The Bible
is Flawless<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A common theme in
Christian churches is the battle between religious norms and values, and those
of the surrounding secular (non-Christian) culture. Stories like the one told
by Pastor Ed here abound, about how the Church must stick to God’s rules and
avoid falling in with the culture of the world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PE:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Probably on Wednesday
night you picked up that our world views are always based on what we believe.
Creation vs. evolution. That has so many ramifications to where our thinking is
and where we stand and what we believe, which often means we stand against
where the culture is going and what is politically correct. We believe the
Bible is unchanging and therefore our beliefs are going to be unchanging
regardless of where the culture goes. That’s not always an easy place to be.
But we believe that’s what God put us here for. For us the biggest, most
important thing of all is that people know what Christ did for them and that
they know that that offer of salvation is extended to them no matter where
they’ve been and what they’ve done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center; text-indent: -.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Belief stories come
in many forms. In this chapter I highlighted stories of the written word. Most
organizations, whether they be political, educational, cultural, or religious
have such rational stories. They serve as touchstones and rulebooks to guide
individual behaviors both within and outside of their immediate context.
Specifically, I show here some ways that religious people interpret their
belief story texts and how these interpretations influence their religious and
secular life actions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Chapter 9<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Belief Stories about God</span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in 7.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Most definitions of
religion include the belief of something supernatural. Accordingly, religious
belief stories are filled with discussions about god, a supernatural being.
Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religious belief stories, for instance, focus on
an anthropomorphized, omniscient, omnipresent being. God stories are part and
parcel of religious people’s thoughts and behaviors. In the following example, Pastor
Scott tells of his early relationship with God, a relationship that has
influenced his entire life. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in 7.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">At age six I got saved. It did not really mean a whole lot to
me. Obviously I wasn’t a terrible sinner at that age, but it became meaningful
to me when I was fourteen, my father passed away from a heart attack very
sudden, very unexpected, and I began to sense that God had something for me
that’s just not a common thing. I figured that it was God reaching out to me in
a very different kind of way. I did not know what it meant at that time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in 7.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">This chapter covers types of God stories common among the religious
folks I observed as well as data gathered from religious literature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Direct
Relationships with God<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">For
Sufis, a culture within Islam, God’s very essence and substance is love (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams
1962:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 215), the agent of creation. Before
there was anything, there was love: God loving God’s self in a primordial state
of unity. Such beliefs lead Sufis to seek direct personal experiences with the
Divine. They hold ambiguous views of Islamic Law, especially as it gets in the
way of their relationship with God. This is like Protestants seeking direct
relations with God, as opposed to Catholics who allow the Church to stand
between people and God. Sufis represent an alternative Muslim belief story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Sufi
Dervishes chant or dance until they fall into a trance (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams
1962:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 169-70). The acting out of belief
stories like this is evidence of one’s identity. In some cases, like the
Dervishes, subcultural identities go beyond the acting out of identities of
conventional folk. Their behaviors are sincere as they have internalized the
belief stories and identities they act out.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God as
CEO<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">In
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The God </i>Problem, Robert Wuthnow (2012)
describes how seemingly rational people negotiate their beliefs in the
existence of God, an inherently irrational idea, through talk. One type of talk
uses the God as a CEO analogy. God exists, the story goes, like the leader of a
corporation. He has an overall plan but leaves it to His underlings (believers)
to work it out. Strategies like God as a CEO work to affirm faith in God while
suggesting He does not intervene in the daily affairs of humans. It avoids
looking crazy by denying God has a plan that we need to follow. Belief stories
are full of such hedges to allow believers to assimilate an irrational belief
into mainstream rational societal discourse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God as
Consciousness<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reverend Joan of the Religious
Science Institute sees God as consciousness, an energy that exists within
people. God is unity rather than an entity separate from humans, as Christians,
Muslims, and Jews believe. This way of seeing God as everything changes
believers’ behaviors. God is now something to experience rather than pray to
and depend upon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">RJ:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>God is in, as, and
through everyone and everything. God can be Love, Peace, Joy, Divine
Intelligence, Source. It’s your experience. How do you experience God? That
energy, that impulse that happened 14 billion years ago is in, as, and through
everyone and everything. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We pray
affirmatively. We pray that everything is already established, 14 billion years
ago, the Big Bang. We are creative beings. That impulse is within us, that’s
who we are. Everything. Consciousness. Discovering consciousness in everything.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God as
Dialectic<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Many Christians
believe God to be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He always is and
will never change. People’s perceptions of God, however, can be led astray by
culture though God never changes. Others, however, like Father Tom of the
Episcopal Church, see people’s ideas changing as culture changes and, thus, God
changes, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">FT:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Literally, some
people felt God had died, literally. Others felt symbolically, metaphorically,
theologically, that one image of God. . .Kind of like Thomas Kuhn’s ideas of
scientific revolution. A paradigm. There’s a thesis, an idea, an opposite idea,
an antithesis, they wrestle into a new third way, a synthesis results. So
language about God gets worn and dies and goes through chaos and emptiness into
a new language, new imagery of God emerges, which I think actually
characterizes the human experience. It explains all the denominations and
religions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Some believe in the
ontological death of God, others felt it was more symbolic. Certain kinds of
religious imagery and language had died and would now have to give way to
another kind. When Harvey Cox was writing, talking about the secular society in
the sixties, he felt religion had died. The death of God came out of that. It
was exciting for me cuz of the risk they’re taking in terms of religion,
beliefs and creeds, and maybe our experience of God which always, of course,
comes through our bodies – that was my sermon on Sunday – it comes through our
minds. You know, Kant, we shape our experience through idealism, our ideas.
Those things really die and then something else emerges from creation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Father Tom’s idea about a changing god is similar to the
sociological concept of the social construction of reality. Father Tom is
suggesting that god is created through interaction and as interactions change,
so does god. God did not create people, people created god.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God as
Father<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
metaphor of God as Father is rampant within monotheisms. Indeed, it is not just
metaphor for many. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
believe in God as a literal father. The belief in God as Father, then, is imbedded
within belief stories and is influential in the actions of monotheistic
religious people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The following example
from my field notes, beginning with a fictional account from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Last Temptation of Christ</i>
(Kazantzakis 1960), follows through by suggesting that God as Father sits
higher than earthly family ties in Christian’s minds.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Jesus
commands that He should be loved more than mother, father, son, or daughter.
The old commandments to love family the most do not count anymore. I heard this
many times in local sermons. It is played out in Abraham being asked to kill
Jacob. Love God more than anything else, Pastors often state, even more than
family. The strongest marriages and families are the ones that put God first,
family second.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In another example, a
Christian Satellite Network minister told a God as our father story suggesting,
“God does not love you for the work you do, He loves you because He is your
Father.” The story was, simply, believe. God is our father. Fathers love their
children no matter what.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Be Like
Jesus<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Elder Kurt preaches
that he strives to “be like Jesus.” He already feels he has reached salvation
by being born again, so now what? He mentions in his sermons that since God has
chosen us, we are already loved and accepted. It sure does sound like, as long
as one’s belief is intact, one is saved and God is guiding us. Elder Kurt wants
to take his salvation to the next level. He sees Jesus as a charismatic leader,
as a model-type. Kurt, though believing it could never happen, because Jesus as
a type is unattainable, tries to live his life as Jesus would live his. He
makes daily and situational decisions based on his perceptions of the decisions
Jesus would make. Elder Kurt is not alone in his attempts to be like Jesus. His
individual biography (personal troubles) is embedded within a larger cultural
movement (public issues), as evidenced in the oft-repeated and printed “What
Would Jesus Do?” or WWJD?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God
Challenges Us<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Nikos
Kazantzakis illustrates a salient Christian belief story about how every moment
of Christ’s earthly life was conflict and victory (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Kazantzakis</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1960). He is God. We all have conflicts, but we do not always
have victory. Christ was perfect because he always had victory, like a sports
team with a perpetually undefeated season.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">A
significant piece of this Christian story is that Jesus did not fall into
temptation. In Christians’ attempts to be like Jesus, they try not to yield to
temptation either. However, since Christians are human and Jesus is God, the
former regularly fall into temptation, which is why we need the latter. He has
cleansed us of all sin. This is <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">the</i>
Christian belief story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">In
Kazantzakis’s story, Jesus answers Redbeard’s inquisition with “I am wrestling”
(</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Kazantzakis</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1960: 21). Christians wrestle with the distinction between
secular and sacred, earthly and celestial. This is, as with so much of what is
in Kazantzakis’s book, another piece to the Christian belief story. Life is a
wrestling match. Jacob wrestled all night with God in one story. We wrestle.
That is who we are.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Jesus
questions God. Why can’t He bring water to the desert and fruit to the vines?
This is another fundamental Christian belief story: We do not understand why
God allows suffering. If He is loving and all-powerful, why does He not make us
all happy? We should not question Him. He knows what He is doing, we do not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the following
interview excerpt, Pastor Jon of an Assemblies of God church explains how he
sees the difficulties he has faced in life as struggles with God. At one point
he and his family of four were homeless, living in a hotel. Pastor Jon was
working at McDonalds.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As I look back now I
see the bigger picture and I have a greater understanding, maybe not fully, but
God was removing everything that I trusted in: experience, my skills, my
network. Everything that I had relied upon and even trusted in, God just
stripped them away. As I look back, He wanted to know if I was going to totally
and wholly trust Him, even when I lost it all. That was the hardest thing in my
life to go through because I saw my family struggling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">From Pastor Jon’s perspective, God had a plan that included
challenging him with material deprivation. But Pastor Jon made it through, he
says, and is now leading a church of his own.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God
Guides<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Religious folks of
many faiths believe God guides them in their everyday lives. Similar to Pastor
Jon’s story of adversity above, the speakers below tell stories of how God led
them on paths they did not anticipate. In the first story, Pastor Morty tells
of how God led him to a missionary conference which in turn enriched his
preaching.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This last May we went
to Illinois. We went to a mission conference that my wife and I actually joined
up with. It’s called CUME Baptist Ministries and it’s a committee on missionary
evangelism. They had this conference for 3 days, Sunday to Wednesday. Every
night and during the day they had one of the missionary speakers do a sermon.
They had a regular church service every night. Through that God just
illuminated my life, made my faith so much more real than before. I’ve just not
been the same ever since. My study habits have changed, I haven’t picked up a
Civil War book in 3 months, the fifth grade is the last time I did that. I’ve
just been more engrossed in the Bible, to be honest. I’m not trying to sound
corny or weird, I’m just telling you it’s been a real experience. It’s been so
much better for me. I’ve been told that my messages reflect that, before I went
compared to after. I do not know for sure, but I’m just kind of praising the
Lord right now, for lack of a better way to say it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">What follows are four stories told by Pastor Ed that show three
times in his life that God led him in a certain direction. In the first, God
presented him with his first chance at being a religious leader.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>God continued to
bring experiences into my life. I went to work at a camp when I was 14. I was
supposed to work in the kitchen but when the counselors did not show up I ended
up counseling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the next story Pastor
Ed tells of his first time preaching solo. He did not feel he could do it, but
had told God that if this is what He wants, he will give it a shot.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I remember getting up
there and suddenly the fear was gone and I was far more interested in people
understanding God’s word than I was what they thought of me. I felt an ability
that I had never felt before. In the process of preaching that Sunday I knew
that “This is what God wants me to do for the rest of my life.” From that point
forward God threw open doors to me. I had opportunities to preach in churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next Pastor Ed tells of
the fortuitous journey of Ron, who went from young parishioner to the head of a
church planting mission in Utah.<span style="background: lightgrey; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Dick was a church
planter in Idaho, from Michigan. He shared in that church and Ron felt like
this guy, “This is what God wants me to do.” He walked up to him and told him
after the service. Dick has later said, “I saw this young kid come up, he was
11 years old, and told me, ‘I’m gonna be a church planter some day with you.’”
And he said, “Oh, okay.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ron went to Bible
School. Ron kept in contact with Dick. He eventually came out and worked
summers with him in Idaho. Then he felt burdened to go to Kaysville, Utah. So
that’s where he went. That church is still in existence, still flourishing. He
planted three churches in Utah. Now he’s the head of a church planting mission.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally, Pastor Ed tells
of his calling to plant a church in Southern Utah. It was God, he says, that
led him in this direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We kept contact with
him. I went back and started pasturing again, but I’d be sitting there
preparing messages but I’d be thinking about planting a church in St. George.
Eventually I had the assurance that this is what God wanted for me. So we
announced to our church, “We are going to be leaving in 6 months. While we are
here we’d like to go out and share this with other churches every other week
and then you can have pastoral candidates in the meantime.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Similarly, Pastor Scott<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> </b>tells how he came to Utah through
God’s suggestion. He first provides the story of the rising axe head from 2
Kings in the Bible, a story told by a pastor at a church service he attended at
a crucial point in his career, then tells of how God’s word kept coming to him
about moving to Utah and preaching.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So he said, his
application was really simple. God gives you a vision, a prophet school, God
kills the vision, the loss of the axe head, God resurrects the vision so that
what you accomplish is in the power and strength of the Lord, according to His
will, not according to the strength and will of man.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I just sat there
dumbfounded. I did not leave for 10-15 minutes. I just sat in that seat in an
empty auditorium just thinking, “Was that about going to Utah and planting a
church?” I prayed about it all week. Later that week, the next week, a guy came
in, talking in the preacher boy class, and he said, “We need preachers in the
Southwestern United States. Utah needs preachers.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At the end of that
week, after all these preachers talking about planting churches in the States
and one guy talking about churches in Utah, I really believed that that’s what
I needed to do. I needed to go. I believe God wanted me to come here and start
this church. So that’s what we did. I always thought about commitment to come
out to Utah. I told God, “I will go to Utah. I believe that’s what you want me
to do.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The common theme in
these pastors’ stories is action. God led them to pursue clerical positions.
Similarly, lay religious folk often listen for God to guide them in their
actions. AS Kazantzakis illustrates,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Jesus thought, “Whatever God wants, that will happen.” God is in
control, we are not. Thus, faith. Have faith in God to guide one in the right
direction. Do not let that faith waiver. Through thick and thin, dark and
light, good and bad, have faith that God will keep one safe (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Kazantzakis</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> P. 158).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God Heals<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Christians’
beliefs about freedom in Christ are beliefs in freedom from unwanted human
feelings and emotions (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
2012: 223). If one is convinced that Jesus relieves us from the ills of being
human, then one is likely to express belief stories that reflect this. Many
Christians believe God heals the pains of earthly life. Pastor Paul explains:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>God heals in three
different ways. He’ll either heal by his miracle hand, which is always our
first and primary prayer, that he would radically and completely restore you to
wholeness by his miracle hand. The second way God heals is through the hand of
a doctor. We have many people who have come through that ask about prescribed
medications. We reply, “You take your medications as prescribed.” If you have a
chemical imbalance that needs medical treatment and you’re on medication, you
do not go off that medication expecting God to do it. God is healing you
through that medication.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>God is still getting
the glory. He is the one who healed you. He may heal you through his miracle
hand, He may choose to heal you through the hand of a doctor, and there will
always be a reason because, remember, God heals us first of all because He
wants us to be whole, second of all as a testimony of His power. By healing us
through the hand of a doctor, and us giving glory to God, we have the
opportunity to witness who He is and spread the gospel of grace.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The third way God
heals is by taking you home, which is the ultimate healing, because, for the
Christian there is no death. Our last breath here is followed by our first
breath in the presence of the Lord. For some, that is the ultimate healing. God
can choose whichever means because He is God and He gets to make all the
choices by which means He chooses to heal. The one thing we know from a
Biblical standpoint is that every Bible-believing Christian who seeks God for
healing is healed in one of those fashions. Jesus has never denied someone a
healing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Freedom from
addiction is another story people embrace in their belief in Jesus (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Wuthnow</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2012: 231-32). They convince themselves and others, through the
expression of belief stories, that embracing an identity that includes belief
in Jesus is to do away with addictions. This is seen in the second step of many
recovery programs that a higher power is in control of our lives and can restore
our health.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God is
All<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A basic Christian
story tells that God is bigger than people, than earth, than the universe, than
everything. Without this premise, God would not be the omnipotent, omnipresent
force He is. Pastor Paul explains.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are certain
basic definitions that I understand about God. If there is a God, He is
timeless, He’s eternal, which means He exists outside of time, He has no
beginning and He has no end. He spoke time and everything into existence. For
God to be God there are certain attributes He must have. Therefore, because
He’s timeless, eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing, exists outside of time,
knows the past, the present, and the future, because He can see the whole thing
from outside of time, He created time along with everything else, He would have
all knowledge, He would know everything, he would be all-powerful. All meaning
all. Those attributes would also make him completely unchanging. Because if you
knew everything there would never be a need to change because you already know
the past, present, future.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Similarly,
a fundamental principle of Judaism is the belief in one supreme god that has
always been and will always be, who offers agency to people, but who will judge
them based on their actions on Earth (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Gross</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1992). Just looking at the world around us one must conclude that a supreme
being conceived and created everything. This Jewish belief begat Christian and
Muslim beliefs of a similar nature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Quran reminds man he is surrounded by God’s handiwork; it expresses
astonishment that he can be so blind as not to remember the Creator (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962). Islamic belief stories warn us not to forget the
Creator, to always remember that God is the maker of all, that your identity is
God’s making.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Jon
Milton summarizes it well in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Paradise
Lost</i>. God made sky, air, earth, and heaven. God made everything, even man.
Christians need to recognize this (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Milton</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2004). He is their maker and demands recognition if one wants
to receive His Grace. Therefore, God expects pure adoration, unconditional
love. He deserves it as our maker and king.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">C. S. Lewis tells us God is the only uncreated being (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Lewis</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1961: vii). There is no opposite. This is why we should worship
Him. He created everything and nothing created Him; He just Is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Finally,
the Zoroastrians, one of the first monotheistic cultures, tell of Ahura Mazdah
as the God of truth and light, the creator of the universe, and the final judge
and redeemer of history (</span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bradley</span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> P. 41</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">). He revealed himself to Zoroaster and commissioned him to be
his prophet and spokesperson. This is their belief origin story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">As
Weber suggests, ethical prophecy requires a god set sublimely above the world (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Weber 1978</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">). It requires a god that is ethically better than man, one that
commands in a father-like manner and demands obedience. The Christian god fits
here. He is more ethical than us. Jesus was ethically pure and perfect. He
demands obedience. There is only one way to heaven and it is through Him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God is
Flawless<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Of course, if God is
everything, if He created all and knows all and is all, He is flawless. He
cannot make mistakes because he made everything. This is why Jews, Christians,
and Muslims look to Him for guidance, because he leads with perfection. As Pastor
Paul says, “If God is God and those attributes are all right, then this Bible
has to be flawless or worthless. It cannot be any in between.” Pastor Ed
concurs:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A Bible Church
believes the Bible is the Word of God. That’s what we teach. If you come to any
of our services it’s going to be Bible related, everything that’s being taught.
Most of the time, what I preach and what Chuck preaches, we take them through a
book. We start at the beginning and preach all the way through it. We believe
that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it’s God’s message to man.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God’s Word is flawless, which is why He preaches it to His
congregants and why His congregants listen to Him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Through the Quran, God makes known what He has chosen for man (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Williams</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1962). In this way, Muslim belief stories rely on the Quran
(Allah) for their evidence. The claim is that humans did not make this up, it
is not a social construction, their story comes directly from God. Christians
make the same claim: they did not make it up, their story comes directly from
God in the form of the Bible, the Word of God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
rabbi in Kazantzakis’s story tells Mary that it is God, not the devil, who
torments Jesus (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Kazantzakis</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
1960). “Why,” Mary wants to know. “Because he loves him,” replies the rabbi.
“Do not question the law of God.” So, too, Christians preach not to question
God and that sometimes he puts us in difficult situations (torments us) without
explanation. We simply must trust, have faith, that He knows what He is doing;
He is flawless.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God
Provides<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Christians believe
God will take care of them. Follow God and things will be fine. One’s successes
are because of God, one’s failures are one’s own, though faith will again bring
success. Pastor Ed tells how “God’s hand” brought success to his independent
Bible Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s how things
started. We just saw God’s hand. We came into this town with nothing. He
provided me jobs and a place to live. It’s been a neat ride. We do not take any
credit. We are just thankful we were able to watch it. It’s worked for thirty
years. My belief is this, if the church is being led of God to do what it does,
and people are being led of God to give what God wants them to give, then it
will always be enough.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God Talks
to Us through Prayer<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Christians believe
God talks to us, especially through prayer. We pray, He talks back. He gives us
direction and purpose. Pastor Paul tells of how God led him to ministry with
specific conversations about the matter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I had one of those
deep spiritual experiences where I heard, it seemed audibly but it wasn’t
audibly, from God, telling me that he had a plan for me and that was that the
day would come that I would pastor a church. Woke me up at 4 o’clock in the
morning, sent me to the Bible to read a couple of passages. Clearly I heard the
impression of God telling me that He had called me, He had set me apart to one
day pastor a church and I needed to prepare for that day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was at this point
in Paul’s life that he was let go from his senior management position at a car
dealership. God, however, was in control of the situation. This was another
step for Paul in his path to the ministry. Indeed, as Pastor Paul says, God saw
to it that his “firing” was more than amicable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was seeking God in
prayer and He clearly told me, “I’m gonna take this away from you.” This had to
be divine intervention. That’s a business where nobody gets advance notice that
they’re going to be stepping down out of a senior management position, because
I had power of the pen and the ability to, you know, buy cars. I had more than
a month’s advanced notice and was given a large severance package as part of
retiring from that position. Those things never happen in that industry. It’s
unheard of. But my integrity was such that they trusted me to do as good a job
on my last day as I did on my first and then wanted to make sure that this was
not a hard feelings kind of thing. I was offered another position that I
decided not to take. The reason I did not take it was because I got woke up at
4 o’clock in the morning understanding that God was telling me, “Remember when
I told you” . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Nine years later.
“Remember when I told you the day would come that I would ask you to shepherd a
flock, pastor a church. The future is now.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The final step in Paul’s
path toward pasturing his own church was finding a site. As Pastor Paul tells
it, his wife was searching the Internet for places in need and she came across
St. George, Utah. God drew them to the area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I knew immediately,
it’s St. George. I called my pastor and I said, “It’s St. George.” He said,
“Oh, it is absolutely St. George.” He called the district supervisor for the
Church and said, “Paul and Rachel are supposed to plant St. George, pioneer St.
George.” He said, “That’s absolutely God.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the following story Pastor
George tells of how he was guided to approach his senior pastor because God was
willing him to move on with his life. He then explains what conversations with
God are like for him and how, for parts of his life when he has had rough
times, he felt as if God had stopped talking to him altogether.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This man, I felt such
freedom to go to him and share with him my problems. So many other times as a
Staff Pastor you felt you had to protect your family and yourself. But I had a
great relationship with this man. We were there for three years and God began
to do something to my heart, I had no idea what it was, but I went to my pastor
and said, “I’m struggling because I feel like God is telling me to leave. And
I’m just loving it here.” I was what they call a small group coordinator. I was
in charge of the educational aspect of the church, and childrens pasturing.
Very busy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">In prayer I’ve never heard God’s audible voice. But you’d feel,
kind of like your conscience if you know you’re not going to do something
right, something tells you it’s not right. That’s kind of how God speaks to us
and through the Bible. I did not feel him talking to me at all. Month after
month after month. I cried out to Him like, “Where are you? I’m in this place,
not because of anything I’ve done, but because of all of these other situations
and men that have forced my family through this difficulty.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Morty talks of
how, as he aged, his confidence in his praying waned. He felt he was not
getting through to God the way He wanted. So Pastor Morty went to the Bible,
the source of all knowledge, and studied ways of praying. In doing so, Pastor
Morty found a new way to pray which brought back his confidence that he was
getting to God the way He liked.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In recent years, as
I’ve gotten a little bit older, my experience in my faith has been so much more
rich because of the fact that I’ve, in several different ways, it’s even kind
of hard for me to talk about it, I’ve grown so much closer to the Lord. It’s been
amazing. Several years ago, for an example, seven or eight years ago, I began
to sense that my prayers were going nowhere. Seven or eight years ago I was
sensing that my prayers were just a bunch of words, not a whole lot. I wondered
sometimes if they went any higher than the sound of my voice. So I began to
study a little bit more about prayer and the Bible is just full of information
all the way through about that subject. I began to actually ask God to give me
the words to pray so that I wouldn’t, in my way of thinking, waste words. That
I would feel like I was actually praying what God wanted me to pray, instead of
a rote saying words and things like that which are totally meaningless, or
repeating words or phrases all the time that we have a tendency to do
sometimes. I did not want to be that way, I did not want to pray that way. God
opened up my eyes, so to speak, to be able to learn some things about prayer
that made it a whole lot more meaningful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not long after that,
just as a matter of studying the Bible mostly for my messages here, I cannot
really explain it in so many words but it seems like the Bible itself became
more real, more of a life changer. It’s not like it hadn’t affected my life
before, but in a fresh way. Revival is a word we use sometimes. I’m saying it
was more than that, it was more of a . . .What happened practically speaking is
that different words, sometimes a verse but sometimes even words would be like
neon signs on the pages that seemed to come out of the page and hit me between
the eyes, became very real and meaningful in ways that I never experienced
before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Ed tells a story
about how, through prayer, he reached out to God, pledging he would do whatever
He wants, including public speaking. God, in His wisdom, took young Tim up on
the offer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">PE:<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I prayed and was
pleading with God, I said, “God, I just want to know what you want me to do.” I
was reading Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 that night and it says “Trust in the Lord with
all your heart and lean not to your own understanding.” That’s the second part
of that verse. And it says, “In all your ways acknowledge Him and He’ll direct
your paths.” I stopped when I read that second part, the part that says, “Lean
not to your own understanding.” I thought, “That’s what I’ve been doing.” To my
understanding God would never call me to do anything that would involve public
speaking. I never was good at it. It terrified me. But I remember climbing out
of my bed, getting down on my knees, and I said, “God, if you want me to do
something that involves speaking. If you want me to be a pastor, I’ll do
anything you want me to do. I’ll trust You to give me the ability to do
whatever that is.” Then I added this to my prayer. I said, “In fact, if You
give me an opportunity to preach this summer I’ll take it.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was 19 years old.
Nobody had ever asked me to preach in their church. I thought that was the
safest prayer I’d ever made. My dad actually worked at the Bible School. He
came home three days later and he said. . .People called the school during the
summer time and asked faculty members to fill pulpits when the pastor is on
vacation. He said, “All of the teachers are committed in three weeks. I told
them you would come and preach.” I remembered what I’d promised God. So I said,
“Okay.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In another story Pastor
Ed tells of how he and his wife came to plant a church in Southern Utah from
Michigan. It was through group prayer, with his congregation and family, that
he recognized it was he that God wanted to come here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ron was one of the
missionaries from our church in Michigan. He came to Michigan and said, “I’d
like . . .” They had just moved to Cedar City and were planting Valley Bible
Church which is still there. He said, “I’d like you to pray two other Bible
Churches get started in Southern Utah in the next five years. One in St. George
and one in Richfield. Would you as a church pray for that?” We took that on as
a prayer project, and our family did as well. We had family devotions where we
read the Bible and prayed together. We started praying that God would send
someone to start these churches. I was preaching through the Book of Acts, and
if you’re familiar with Acts, it’s the story of Paul, who was a church planter.
He went from city to city sharing the Gospel, planting churches. So I’m praying
for someone to go to St. George, I’m preaching, and it’s like the messages I’m
preaching to the congregation are hitting me more. I started thinking, “Maybe
God wants me to be an answer to one of those prayers.” Eventually I thought, “I
got to tell my wife what I’m thinking.” I came home one day and we were eating
Sunday dinner and I said, “Joy, I think God may call someone from our church to
missions work.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Scott, who at the
time of which he speaks in the following quote was looking to leave his sinful
way of living for a more Christian one. He was looking for the “right” church
to attend. In this particular church, the one he ends up joining, he is
mesmerized by one of the women in the choir and offers the following, answered,
prayer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Then later that
night. . . I just couldn’t keep my eyes off this beautiful blonde girl. I was
just captivated by her. But I felt like I cannot even talk to her. She’s like
an angel. I do not even deserve to look at her. That night when I was leaving,
I prayed again. I’m like, “God, please.” She’s walking the opposite direction
and I’m like, “Have her say something. I cannot talk to her. Have her say
something to me.” And, literally, like right after I prayed, from two or three
hundred feet across the parking lot at this apartment complex where we had all
gathered, I hear, “Yoo whoo. Tom. Thanks for coming.” I was like, “Wow!”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Indeed, Pastor Scott ends up marrying the women in his story. He
prayed, God answered, and his life took a path.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 56.7pt 113.4pt 170.1pt 3.15in 283.5pt 340.2pt 396.9pt 6.3in 510.3pt 567.0pt 623.7pt 9.45in 737.1pt 793.8pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reverend Joan of the
Religious Science Institute, a New Thought ministry, suggests that everything
already is, prayer simply affirms and invites it in; positive invitations
(thoughts) invite a positive life to happen, negative thoughts invite the
opposite. God, an energy rather than being in New Thought, guides one’s life
but only through invitation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Because you’re
thinking of it as a human being. But if you think of it as impulse, as a pulse,
as energy. Nothing was created without an idea. That’s the ground of being.
Everything has a ground of being. We pray that that already exists. When we
pray affirmatively we know that, first of all, we believe, me as a minister or
me as a practitioner that It already is. We just invite It. It’s a law. If I
think negatively, that’s my life. If I think positively, that’s my life. Words
have power. Whatever you say goes out into this life that we live and it’s
created whether it’s negative or positive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Obedience
to God</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Fidelity to a higher
power is a hallmark of religious belief stories. Obedience takes numerous forms
as told in the following passages. First, John Milton sets the stage in telling
us that obedience to God is of grave concern. Man loses Paradise when he is
disobedient (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Milton</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2004: 9). One
must obey God’s Word or risk going to Hell. This Christian belief story is a
matter of life and death; either identify with it or lose. On the plus side,
obedience to God brings happiness (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Milton</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2004: 163). Not only is obedience expected by Him, it is
something we should want to do. The benefits of such obedience are beyond
comprehension.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next, a lesson on the
Christian Satellite Network discussed how we should show obedience to God here
on Earth. We show it by being obedient to those who have authority over us here.
We should obey our parents. We should obey our bosses. We should obey our
teachers and religious leaders, because they have been ordained by God to have
this authority over us. The only time we should not be obedient is when the
authority figure is evil, a merchant of Satan. Unfortunately, the teacher did
not tell us how to distinguish between God-called authority figures and those
called by Satan.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">According
to Weber, Jews do not focus on redemption (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Weber. 1978:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 620). Instead they focus on the promises and laws of their
religion. Those who “surrender to the artistic or poetic glorification of this
world” are vain and divert their attention away from the purposes of God. God
has put Jews here for a reason, He has chosen them for a reason, He has created
laws and promises that go along with following those laws for a reason. It is a
Jew’s responsibility to live in this world while giving strict adherence to
God’s laws and promises.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A fundamental aspect of religious belief
stories is faith in a larger than life being or beings. These beings, gods,
more or less control conditions on Earth. In this chapter I provided examples
of ways people understand god, and the ways such understandings influence their
religious and secular behaviors. Behaviors, of course, are based on belief
stories. In this case, people’s behaviors are based on belief stories about
god. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: center 3.25in left 312.0pt;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Chapter 10<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Externality of Belief Stories: The Case of </span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Born
Again Stories<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When Elder Kurt, in
his Ephesians sermon, talks about being born again, being chosen by Christ who
paid for us with his blood, he is making sense of the world. Many in Elder Kurt’s
congregation refer to themselves as “born again.” They were living a certain
type of life, a sinful life. My guess is that many of the people in the flock
were doing drugs, committing some crimes (outside of drug use), engaging in
pre- and extra-marital fornication. There then came a point, a moment, in their
lives where and when they believe God “saved” them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The above is not an
uncommon story in religious cultures. I had a roommate, Brian, at Northern
Arizona University who believed he had been saved in the same way. He had been
a heavy partier and was, at some point, saved. The story of Johnny Cash
contains a similar story: Cash was an addict, depressed, drunk, and crawled
into Nickajack cave near Chattanooga, Tennessee, hoping to die (Summers N.D.).
God spoke to him inside that cave, told him to get back out there and be more
“Christ-like” (Elder Kurt’s words: “be like Christ”). My friend Autumn tells a
similar story of partying, being depressed, and, at some one moment, Christ
saved her.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>To be “born again” is
to place oneself into a story. The symbolic interactionist idea is that we
project our internal reality onto external reality. We spend a lot of time
pressing each other to buy into particular external realities internally. Our
individual internal realities only make sense if others have the same ones. If
we share internal realities then we share external realties. If we share
external realities then we can predict one another’s behaviors. If we can
predict one another’s behaviors then we can act with more or less assurance
that others will cooperate with us in attaining our goals, and we with theirs.
If we act cooperatively then things get done. If things get done, things make
sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Born Again Christians
see themselves as sharing similar life stories with other Born Again
Christians. They tell each other their stories and confirm each other’s
realities through them. Elder Kurt, in the above mentioned sermon, reiterates a
few times that they (the people of the Christian Church) were headed down paths
of sin and, ultimately, death. They were all saved. They were all there on that
day because they had all been saved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Elder Kurt’s sermon
is a projection of inner-reality onto outer-reality. For whatever reason, he
has been given the status of story teller at the Christian Church. He chooses
books and stories from the Bible and teaches them to the flock. Concurrently,
members of the congregation support Kurt in his sermons by listening, making
comments here and there, and offering up “amens.” Together they are
constructing and maintaining a reality story, the story of their lives, the
story of their realities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">“How did I get here?” they ask themselves. “This is how.” They
believe that Jesus chose them for this task, and they chose Jesus. They used
their human agency to first, sin like sailors, and then choose Jesus. They
chose to actively love Him and to try and be like Him by renouncing Earthly
sins and by acting like Born Again Christians.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conversion
is an influential religious rhetorical device (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bainbridge</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 1997: 155). The idea that by joining this or that religion one
will have a life altering experience is attractive. Religious belief stories
are rife with such devices.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"> </span>In laying claim
to a new identity within a new group, individuals go through a process of role
dispossession, they are no longer connected to the outside world and they thus
give up their past roles in favor of those offered by their new group
membership (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Jacobsen & Kristiansen</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
2015: 87). Born again belief stories contain encouragements for the role
dispossessions of their members.<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The process of
redefining individual identities serves to stabilize and confirm the group
identities that already exist (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Jacobsen & Kristiansen</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 2015). Group members attempt to instill existing group belief
stories within new members as a way of maintaining existing group beliefs. This
instillation of belief into neophytes serves to reinforce current members’
already internalized identities and belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Born
again stories are reality construction stories. When an Evangelical Protestant
Christian tells a story about being at the end of their rope, doing lots of
drugs and stealing stuff, getting on their knees and praying for God to
intervene and then having a moment when God does intervene, and when this story
correlates with the stories of a lot of other people they consider Christians,
they have participated in the construction of a reality that they and others
consider correct. Every time someone tells such a story, every time one is
witnessed by others as having such a moment, the reality is maintained, and
every time these stories are told and supported by others, one’s self identity
as a Christian is maintained.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A CSN
pastor urged his listeners to “think differently” about our world and Jesus.
This is what Christians do, they think differently than non-Christians. Once
you realize that Christ is in control, that He is watching out for you, that
your life experiences are the realization of His plans, the troubles and
tribulations of this world become trivial. We do not have to worry or stress
about this world’s problems when we think this way. Tough situations are trials
for us, put there by God to make us better Christians.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Substitute
“belief” for “think” in the above paragraph and you have what I am getting at
in this book. The pastor is urging us to change our beliefs about this world
and God. Non-Christians, he says, believe in this material world and our
material existences in it. They believe that this is all there is and that
troubles are setbacks to happiness; we must overcome our troubles (which will
never happen) in order to attain happiness. Non-Christians believe this.
Christians, on the other hand, believe that God is bigger than this world, that
eternal life makes this earthly coil miniscule in the scheme of forever. Once
we believe this story we will act as if it is true.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>To be
born again is to go through a belief transformation (a thinking transformation
in the CSN pastor’s story) where we go from not believing in the Christ story
to believing in it. This, according to the story, is something that happens for
all Christians, even those who have always believed in God. They argue that
Christians start life as unbelievers. Or they believe and then stop believing.
Or they ascribe to some other belief story. Then they have their moment, their
born again experience, their belief transforming experience. Then they believe
in the Christ story.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It goes without
saying that born again stories are interactional and shared. Those who call
themselves "Born Again Christians" tell similar stories about how
they got to where they are. They tell these stories to one another, share the
stories with one another, help each other craft each other's stories. It is
what they do at services on Sundays. It is what they do when they distribute
sack lunches to the homeless on Saturdays. It is what they do when they talk
with their families at the dinner table or in the park or while driving in the
car. It is no different, other than in content, than what we all do in sharing
cultures and identities with others. I share my story of being an
"academic" with my academic colleagues on a daily basis. When I am
talking with Dr. O or Mr. Green or Dr. McCleod (or all of them at once), when I
am teaching my students, when I am wearing what I wear, when I go to a
conference and interact with people there, I am constructing and maintaining a
reality.<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span></b>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Born
Again Stories<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What follows are born
again stories. Most are told by religious leaders I interviewed, some are based
on my field observations, the one at the end is told by Brian “Head’ Welch,
guitarist for the band Korn, who wrote about his experiences in an
autobiography.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Pastor
Paul<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Paul of the
Four Square Church tells of how he was slowly led to Christ, behind his back,
by his wife Rachel (who is co-pastor of the church he leads) and a group of Christian
bikers. He was obstinate, did not want to have anything to do with religion.
But he went to a Bible Study with Rachel and this group, he read a passage from
the Bible and was overcome with the Spirit. God directly intervened in Paul’s
life. Paul was born again at that specific moment in a specific house on a
specific couch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I went to a Bible Study
with a group of former outlaw bikers who had found Christ and changed their
lives and now were ministering to other bikers. My wife was attending it. For
about a year she hooked up with this Christian motorcycle group of former
hardcore bikers who now were preaching Jesus. I was around them once in awhile
but not very often. She would go to this Bible study at one of their houses and
she’d come home and, “Well, what did you talk about?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And she’d say, “The
Bible.” She wouldn’t tell me a thing. They had been praying behind my back for
a year. They were praying diligently for me behind my back. I would’ve
certainly objected had I known that because I was pretty obstinate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At that Bible study,
I was listening, they handed me a Bible, I do not even know what the topic was
that night, I could not tell you, but they handed me a Bible and asked me to
read the Gospel of John, Chapter 1, Verse 29. It was my turn to read. That was
the first words I ever read in English in the Bible. Remember, growing up Jewish
in a conservative Jewish community, the Old Testament was read in Hebrew, and I
did not understand Hebrew. I certainly wouldn’t have ever read the New
Testament. And it was, “The next day John saw Jesus coming, said ‘Behold, the
Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As it has been
described, literally I began shaking, physically shaking to the point where the
sofa I was sitting on seemed to be shaking. Everybody in the room, except me,
knew that I had been overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit. At that moment,
all that stuff that I had been taught in Hebrew school, in Sunday school, but
it was on Saturdays, Friday nights, growing up, just came back in a moment and
the sacrificial lamb of the Passover and all of the Jewish traditions, at that
moment I realized that Jesus was the promised Messiah of the Jewish people of
the Old Testament. They prayed with me. I could not tell you what the prayer
was. We went home and a couple of days later we went to a local church that was
very biker friendly, Grapevine Fellowship, about 1,000 people. A very diverse
group.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Pastor
George<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor George
witnessed his older sister be born again and he followed suit. He engaged in
some sinful behavior (drugs, crime) to the point where he was at the end of his
rope. He asked for God’s love and got it; he was born again. Notice in the last
line that Pastor George knows the exact date of his born again experience, a
common point of articulation among those who have had such experiences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When I was 11 or 12 I
had a unique experience in our children’s church. The leader said, “Anybody who
would like to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?” We believe in baptism in water
and being submerged and coming back out. The same term goes with being enveloped
with the power of the Holy Spirit. I was like, “Not me, man! That sounds really
weird.” My sister raised her hand and she went forward and they prayed for her.
Suddenly she began to speak in these other languages. She was probably 13. All
that week she was bouncing off the walls. She was so happy. There was a joy and
excitement. She was totally a new person.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">I was like, “I want that.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The next Sunday they said, “Does anybody want to receive that,”
and I raised my hand. So I went forward and they began to pray for me. I was 11
years of age. I tried to open my mouth. I heard my sister praying in this
unknown language and I began to try to repeat what she was saying and nothing
came out. There was no voice. It was just the mouthing of the words. Suddenly, it
was like I blacked out. I opened my eyes and I am in the foyer of the church.
No idea how much time had passed and I am just weeping and I am speaking in
this other language. It was an amazing experience. My mom had to just point me
home cuz I was under the influence of the power of God so great.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Right after that . . .I always wanted to be accepted from peers.
Psychologists will say it goes way back to my dad leaving, being abandoned, the
emotional turmoil that we experienced as a family, that I wanted to be a part
of something. That need to belong. Very important. So I started doing things
that were inappropriate to get friends. So I started getting into drugs and
alcohol. Initially smoking marijuana which led me to other things. I went to a
vocational school my junior year and that was a lot of availability of drugs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But then between my
junior and senior years of high school I wasn’t around my friends a lot. I went
to church on a Wednesday night. None of my friends showed up. We sat in the
back. When the songs started we stepped outside and did not come back until
church was over. As I sat there, I did not want to run around the neighborhood
alone, it wasn’t that good of a neighborhood. I heard the message again from
that pastor, my home pastor. I felt this longing in my heart. I was searching
for something. I felt the presence of the Lord, of God, drawing me into. . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The next night at my home, I lived in the basement. It was
great. I was able to hide drugs all over the basement and my parents would never
find them. I contemplated life. That night I got on my knees and I prayed. I
said, “God, you know I am nobody. I have nothing to offer. I am a horrible
person. I have done horrible things. If you still love me would you come and
live in me?” And I felt, I physically, I haven’t felt that ever since. I felt a
physical feeling come up over me and all of the guilt and the shame and
everything just was gone. The Bible talks about becoming a new person in that
we are transformed in a moment like that. My goals, my desires, everything was
totally changed. My goals, everything changed in my life. It was like a burden
was lifted off of me. I was free. This conversion experience happened on July
25, 1979.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Pastor
Morty<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in 7.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Morty, a
Baptist church leader, tells of how he was born again at six years old. His
Sunday school teacher told his class about human sin and Christ, and Pastor
Morty knew then and there that he needed to walk with God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in 7.5in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My walk with God
started around six years old. I can still vividly remember, approximately the
first grade, in Sunday school the teacher was talking about heaven and hell.
She had made it clear that, as the scriptures say, that the Bible says that all
are sinners, we’ve all fallen short of God’s standard of holiness. The Bible
speaks of being born again and being saved, various terms: justified, redeemed,
born again. All these different terms that speak about a new life that we have
in Christ by accepting his death on the cross and his subsequent resurrection
as the means of our salvation. I remember that. I remember after one particular
Sunday, she led in prayer and I silently prayed, I confessed my own personal
sins to God and asked Him to forgive me through Jesus’ death and resurrection.
So at age six I got saved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Pastor Ed<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Independent Bible
Church Pastor Ed’s story is similar to Pastor Morty’s. Pastor Ed was born again
at the age of eight. Also similar to Pastor Morty’s story, Pastor Ed’s
relationship with God was solidified in Sunday school. Notice also that Pastor
Ed suggests a specific day of his salvation, though he does not produce an
actual date.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was sitting in
Sunday school one time as an 8 year old boy and the teacher was teaching about
the fact that we are sinners and that because of that sin we are separated from
God, we are condemned.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As an 8 year
old one thing I understood was I am a sinner. I knew I’d lied, I knew I’d
stolen things. I could go down the list. I felt the weight of my sin. Nobody
told me, “Now Ed, you need to go do this.” I knew what I needed to do. So in
the privacy of my own heart, nobody there knew what took place that day in me.
But I said, “Lord I know you are the son of God. I know you came to this earth
and you died on the cross. You paid for my sin. You offer me heaven as a gift.
I accept you as my savior.” It wasn’t a big emotional experience, I just felt
relief. That weight of sin I felt was lifted from me. That decision as an 8
year old boy changed the course of my life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There were a lot of
new things that were happening in me. I’d never really cared about knowing
God’s word before that. I began to desire to know His words. I’d look at it on
my own, ask a lot of questions. I wanted my friends to know about this. I began
sharing with them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 423.75pt 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Notice how Pastor Ed’s Born Again experience influenced his
actions; he wanted to tell his friends about Jesus.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Pastor
Scott<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Independent
Christian Church Pastor Scott’s story begins a little differently than the
others. He was in the United States Navy, on a ship, during Operation Praying
Mantis, a 9-hour battle between the U.S. and Iran. This experience, he says,
frightened him toward God. The rest of Pastor Scott’s story is by now familiar.
God led him to a particular church on a particular day in which he was born
again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>By the time the day
is over we are engaged by aircraft, we shoot an aircraft down. In the week to
follow we are continuously engaged and harassed by the Iranians. Just super
fearful. A week’s worth of intense fear. I was expecting to die.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That experience, that
intense fear. “I know there’s a God. I know that I am guilty before Him. I
almost died this week.” That event is so etched into my mind. So I was looking
for answers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I got out of the
Navy. Had a rough transition to civilian life. I had almost a loathsome,
“there’s no purpose in this.” In the military everything had a purpose. All
that training, even sweeping decks, everything had purpose. I started feeling
like, “Maybe I ought to try to reconnect with church. Maybe I will find some
purpose there.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So that is what ended
up happening. I got to the end of myself and on November 4 of 1989 picked a
church.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For me, that day, November 4
of 1989, when I was traveling to that church, I went to an evening service, I
was just driving, you know, it is November, it is dark, darker, I was just
talking to God. Praying, “You know, God, I am going to this church, but from
here on out you have all of me.” I really felt like God was telling me to go to
this church. Like I was being pulled in that direction. I knew that I needed to
go there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I went to that
church. Sat in the front row. I just felt at home. I do not remember what the
Pastor preached, but I literally was like in the very front row, right in front
of the pew. I was like, “If this guy has anything from God, then give it to
me.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor Scott’s born
again experience led to a change in his behaviors. In the next passage he
explains how he stopped lying and cussing, things he did habitually, in the
name of God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">On that day I fell in love with the church and Christ. I
committed my life and my life changed overnight. I went to work the next day
not quite understanding everything that had taken place the night before, but I
went to work and I walked in the door, and my boss asked me something and I
lied. Did it a million times. People lie, right? And then I suddenly felt
horrified that I lied. “C’mon, Scott, you shouldn’t be telling lies.” Something
within me is talking to me in a non-verbal way, “You can’t lie. We are not
doing this lying thing.” And I thought, “That is really weird.” Then, an hour
later, I swore. I dropped the f-bomb and again I had this horrifying sensation
come over me. I thought, “Okay, this is getting weird.” Because I always swore
and I never cared.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span></b>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Brian “Head”
Welch<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Save Me from Myself</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> (2007) is the autobiography of Head Welch, guitarist for the
rock band Korn</span><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftn17" name="_ftnref17" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn17;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[17]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">. Welch’s story focuses on his addiction to crystal methamphetamine
and, more importantly, his change to a Born Again Christian. It is generically
informative that he is defining his past based upon his present. This is a
basic social psychological idea and it is clear in Welch’s story. He writes
about being a teenager, 14 or 15, and hanging out at a friend’s house. In
contrast to the tension that existed in his own household, this friend’s house
was peaceful and happy. The friend’s family spoke often, comfortably, and
openly about Jesus. Welch suggests that their peacefulness as a family is
because of their open faith in Jesus. He also recounts a moment when the
friend’s mother and Welch were sitting at a table and, seemingly out of
nowhere, she tells him that he will be a much happier person if he would accept
Jesus into his life. She tells him to try praying tonight, to ask Jesus to come
into his life. Welch went into the basement bathroom that night, got on his
knees, and prayed. He felt something, though he could not put his finger on
what it was, but it was something. The reader understands that this thing Welch
felt was Jesus.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Welch suggests his
conversion to Christianity was a gradual process that took place over a year or
so, though a number of years following his prayer just discussed. He began to
hate touring and playing in Korn. He was an alcoholic, meth, porn, and pill
addict, depressed and suicidal. He partnered with some people in real estate
who were Christians. They did not talk much about it, but it would slip out
occasionally. Welch writes of the various Christians that were coming into his
life as if God placed them there. None of them were pushy. They were happy and
content people, seemingly free of the stresses and anxieties of Earthly life.
Their Christianity was attractive as a life model; Welch wanted to be like
them. They did not proselytize, but they were inviting. It is as if they were
there for Welch when he was ready. God is there when we are ready.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We can be ready at
any time in any way and God will be there. Welch gives examples of how this
happens. For instance, he told a friend of how another friend got in touch with
God for the first time while sitting on the toilet. This friend, then, called
Welch the next day (or so) and said that he, too, met God while “taking a
dump.” Another friend, after talking God with Welch, got in his car, turned on
the radio, and Nine Inch Nail’s “Head Like a Hole” was playing. More
specifically, the refrain, “Bow down before the one you serve/You’re gonna get
what you deserve” was the first thing that came on the radio. This, according
to Welch (and his friend) was God speaking to the friend.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Welch says his
conversion was slow. He was still using meth in the months leading up to his
full conversion. He was already believing in God and talking with God, and God
was talking back, but he was still using. He had messed up almost every area of
his life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Welch eventually
reached out to a Christian friend, telling him he did not know what to do. He
wanted to kick all his bad habits. He wanted to know God. His friend, Eric,
suggested that he pray, sincerely, to God and Jesus will do the rest. Eric gave
Welch a Bible with no hard sell to accompany it. This surprised him. He thought
Christians were always aggressive in their proselytizing. This was attractive to
Welch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Along with being a
standard piece of most born-again stories, interacting with those already in
the know is consistent with sociological “becoming” stories (i.e. Becker’s
(1953) “How to Become a Marijuana User”). Becoming something, anything, involves
social interaction with folks who already are. They “teach” one how to use the
thing (prayer), how to recognize the effects (of God), and how to enjoy His
effects.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There was no doubt in
Welch’s mind that God was talking to him. This was a step in his path toward
conversion, he now had “evidence” that God cared and wanted to have a personal
relationship. Within a week, Welch quit Korn and walked away from everything
from his former life; he was born-again, a Christian walking with Jesus. Being
born again means what it says, becoming a new person in a new life much like
someone coming out of drug rehab or going through military boot camp, they see
themselves in a new light and wish for others to see them this way as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are a dozen or
more color photos in the middle of the book. Head does not smile in any of the
pre-Born Again photos and he is all smiles in the post-acceptance ones. His
story is that he was miserable and depressed before and now that he is
Christian he is content and happy. His pre-acceptance life is a former life,
one he no longer lives. God has forgiven him for the iniquities of his previous
life. Now that he is Born Again, now that he is Christian, God lives within
him. He no longer needs to worry about iniquity because he is being guided by
Jesus and He is right and good, always. No more depression or guilt or anxiety.
Jesus is in control.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A
main argument I make in this book is that belief stories beget behavior.
Individual’s act based on their identities within stories they believe. In this
chapter I highlighted born again stories. These are stories that change the
life courses of individuals. One is not truly Christian, the story goes, until
being born again, visited by God or the Holy Spirit and converted. Once born
again, one acts like a Christian. This often includes no drink or drugs, no
more cussing, going to church on a regular basis. The fact that so many people
remember the exact dates of their conversion suggests the importance of born
again stories in the life activities of Christians.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Chapter 11<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-align: center; text-indent: .5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Dealing with </span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Contradictory Stories: How Religious
People Counter Challenges to Their Expressed Realities<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">As with all of us, religious people encounter a world of stories
that contradict their own. Some people directly challenge the beliefs of the
religious, asking how they can possibly believe in something (i.e. God) that is
so obviously not real. Other times religious folks simply encounter situations
in which their perceived realities do not mesh with what they see. People have
two choices in such situations: abandon their beliefs or deny the
contradictions. This chapter focuses on the latter. In it I provide examples of
situations in which religious beliefs are challenged and how religious people
reconcile these contradictions in ways that maintain their belief story
realities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">True
Believers are Persecuted<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon’s sermon at LC today was about being perceived negatively for being a
Christian. He gave us two lessons: one from Genesis and the other from Hebrews.
The first, from </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Genesis<span style="color: #212121;">, told of Joseph and the main servant Potiphar and how
Potiphar’s wife tried to seduce Joseph. But Joseph would not go with her
because that would be a sin against God. She then accused Joseph of rape and
Potiphar sent him to prison. In prison Joseph was given authority and autonomy,
just like he had been in Potiphar’s house, because God looked kindly upon
Joseph and made sure he succeeded in all he did. Pastor Gordon’s second
account, from Hebrews 11: 24-26, is the story of how Moses chose to be
mistreated among the slaves of Egypt, the people of God, rather than accept the
riches that came with being Pharaoh’s son. In the same day’s Gospel lesson, Pastor
Gordon shared from Luke 9:18-24 where Jesus tells his disciples that he is God,
or where they figure this out for themselves. Either way, Jesus tells them not
to tell anyone because if they do they will face rejection from elders, priests
and teachers.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pastor
Gordon’s story is common in Christianity. Faithful Christians will be rejected
by secular society. Making the choice to be Christian, to accept Christ as
Savior, is to choose rejection. Pastor Gordon suggested that once Moses and
Joseph made their choices they were subjected to what today we would call
racism. Once they made it known that they followed Yahweh, they were outed as
Jews and treated like “morons” and “dips” (Pastor Gordon’s words). So, too, the
analogy goes, Christians in modern society are objects of discrimination. If
one is a true believer one must not back down. A Christian must accept that
they will be treated poorly. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Encountering
contradictory truths is a common theme in many “true belief” communities.
Professors (including myself) often say that if we are not upsetting some of
our students with our lectures then we are not doing it right. Our point is
that the truth we teach often offends. Students come in to our classrooms with
a certain way of thinking about the world, we offer them something that goes
against how they have been brought up and it upsets them. Missionaries for the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints speak the same way: They get cussed
at and chased because they are preaching a truth that others do not want to
hear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Thinking</i> of the world this way, let us
call these victimization stories, leads to a way of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">acting</i>. Victimization stories solidify Christians’ ideas that what
they belief is the truth; if others reject them because of their beliefs then
they are doing the right thing. Victimization thinking creates cohesion. By
expressing victimization stories with each other and with self, religious
people confirm their membership in the community: “People like us are shunned
because we think and do what is right.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My colleague Joe told me how "high criticism" is
heresy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Philip A. Harland’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean </i>podcasts
(2007-08) are a good example of high criticism. Harland takes a
historical/literary look at the Hebrew Bible. For instance, Harland examines
the gospel of Mark by discussing the synoptic gospels of Mark, Matthew, and
Luke. They read similarly, like the authors were borrowing from each other and
reading some of the same things. Then there is John, who does not fit well with
the other three. The synoptic gospel writers have similar literary styles,
John's is different. Then Harland takes aim at the order in which the synoptic gospels
were written. One hypothesis, he says, is that Matthew's was written first,
with Mark and Luke next, the latter two borrowing from Matthew's writing.
Another hypothesis is that Mark wrote first, followed by Matthew and Luke, the
latter two borrowing liberally from Mark. A third hypothesis -- the Q
hypothesis -- is that Mark wrote first (in 60 or 70 CE), then Matthew and Luke.
The twist in this third hypothesis is that not only are Matthew and Luke seen
as borrowing from Mark, they are also thought to be borrowing from a gospel
that has yet to be discovered. The evidence is, first, that Matthew and Luke
have similar passages, passages that seem to have come from Mark, suggesting
that they both used Mark as a reference.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Harland is taking an academic approach to understanding the
gospels. To those of us in academia this is a perfectly rational way of doing
research and writing findings. According to Joe, LDS doctrine states that the
gospels are divinely inspired, that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were vessels
through which God spoke. To suggest otherwise is heresy, it is to speak against
God himself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Cynicism of data
helps to understand the stories of religious people, though it may frustrate
those of a more academic bent. Latter-Day Saint belief stories state that the
gospels are divinely inspired. To suggest otherwise is to speak directly
against God and face sanctions within the church. There is a psychological
activity going on here. Some religious people, some members of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, in this case, must put up blinders so that
they do not have to acknowledge historical/literary understandings of the bible
and gospels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What types of
psychological manipulation on the part of some religious people might be
employed to avoid what seem to be obvious scientific/literary/historical
truths? One might be to ignore any statements (verbal, written, symbolic) that
smack of heresy. As soon as one hears/sees such a statement is beginning one
would put up a wall in one's mind and no longer pay attention. Can this be
taught? Is this the result of socialization and socially constructed
affirmation of the behavior? Is this an exchange type behavior? It could be
that some religious people (in this case members of the LDS Church), within any
given situation, weigh the pros and cons of siding with the heretical
information being presented or with their religious beliefs and, within any
given situation, make decisions about at what point they need to choose
religion over heretical information, or vice-versa.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It is not just
religious people who engage in these behaviors. Some people of a scientific
bent must make decisions when faced with non-scientific sounding/looking
information. They must decide how to judge the religious material being
presented. Is it material that contradicts scientific evidence? If so, how does
one understand it? The age of the Earth, for instance. There are some religious
people who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. When a scientific-minded
person comes in contact with a person who holds this belief, and that person
decides to discuss the Earth as 6,000 years old, the scientific person needs to
decide how to process that information. Ignore it? Label the religious person
as crazy?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When a fundamentalist
religious person and a scientific/academic type person come in contact with
each other they must decide how to interact. This, of course, requires a
definition of the situation on the part of each that may or may not compliment
the definition harbored by the other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Congregations
sometimes run afoul of other churches in their own denominations. In the
following example, Pastor Scott tells of how his congregation, after making
some “minor” changes to how they did things, decided to split from the Baptist
congregations that were supporting them. Pastor Scott did not feel his church’s
changes were worth having to leave, but the Baptist churches felt otherwise,
convincing him that change was necessary; his church become “fully
independent.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We broke in 2005. We
dropped the name when we were still associated with the Baptists, we dropped
the name, which irritated some people. We were making small changes, only small
changes, but the mission board would be, like, “Hey, we think that is going to
be offensive to some of the churches that have supported you.” Finally we just
said, “You know, we cannot sit here and worry about offending everybody that
assisted us. We are here to reach people.” So we orchestrated an exit. I said,
“Let’s just call it what it is. We are the one’s changing, not you.” And we
weren’t even doing anything crazy. I think it was November, 2004, we told them
we were gonna end our deal with them at the last day of December. Which we did.
We went fully independent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Incorrigible
Realities and Secondary Elaborations<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mehan and Wood (1975:
9-10) suggest people construct and internalize “incorrigible realities” that
shape their worlds. People believe stories to be real, act as if they are, and
their minds will not be changed. This holds true for all people and the
cultures in which they live: scientists, religious people, academics, artists,
capitalists, socialists. Everyone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A
Christian Satellite Network pastor gave a talk where he said “Christians know
things that the world does not.” The thing they “know,” of course, is that God
loved man so much that he sent his only begotten son, a perfect person, to die
for people’s sins; he was crucified though he was without sin; he rose from
death. These are things Christians not only believe, but they <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">know</i>. Non-believers do not know this to
be true. Christians are upfront about it. You need to believe, that is it. If
you believe the story about God and Christ, then it is true. If you believe the
story about God and Christ, you will act as if it is true.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Other
people will not believe what you believe, the story goes. Indeed, they will
often accuse you of being crazy thinking such things. This is a part of the
Christian story: The more people accuse you of being crazy or spreading
falsehoods, the more you can be sure that you believe the right thing!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Stories
such as told above are what E. E. Evans-Pritchard </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">(Mehan and Wood 1975)<span style="color: #212121;"> refers to as
“secondary elaborations of belief.” We all live and act within realities
constructed from our collective and individual belief stories. Our belief story
realities are rife with contradictions and easily pointed-out falsehoods. Our
incorrigible realities are like balloons in which we live. Contradictions and
falsehoods threaten to pop our balloons and, thus, our belief story realities.
In order to keep our realities from popping, we create secondary elaborations,
behavioral sealant to hold the rubber together. The “if they say you’re wrong,
you must be right” Christian story is such a secondary elaboration. Indeed,
when used well, it will seal any belief story reality hole.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";">Failed Prophecy<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="Normal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A common contradiction for end times
religious stories is when end times do not happen as prophesied. When this
occurs, the prophesiers must rationalize away the mistake for the sake of
harmony among the congregation. Dawson distinguishes four types of
rationalizations for failed prophecy: (1) spiritualization; (2) test of faith;
(3) human error; (4) blaming others (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sarno et al. 2015:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"> 200). These four deal specifically with rationalizing
(secondary elaborations) situations in which end-time prophecy does not come to
pass. “Spiritualization” refers to situations in which the prophecy was
correct, albeit in a spiritual or invisible way only true believers perceive.
“Test of faith” is when God or some other supernatural agents are trying to
weed out true believers from non-. “Human error” suggests that there has been a
miscalculation of some kind by humans here on Earth (we are only human, after
all). “Blaming others” suggests that outsiders interfered with the predicted
event.</span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Segoe UI";"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The authors coded
Harold Camping’s end-times radio show for the presence or absence of the four
kinds of rationalizations discussed above (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sarno</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">
2015). A complex set of rules “was needed to code some latent content in which
the rationalizations and reaffirmations were more implicit.” Through his radio
show Camping actively constructed belief stories about a failed end-times
prophecy in an authoritative fashion. He also did so in a sometimes spontaneous
on-air fashion in live interactions with callers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The survival of
religious leaders after “failed” prophecies depends on a rapid reaffirmation of
the merits of the group’s actions and mission in the face of failure. A prophecy
failure presents cracks in the group’s belief story. Leaders, who are seen as
the bearers of belief stories and, thus, are held directly responsible for
failed prophecy, attempt to seal the belief story cracks with secondary
elaborations; some are more successful at this than others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">The
Construction of the Rapture<span style="color: #00b0f0;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Rapture Exposed</i> (2004) </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Barbara Rossing<span style="color: #212121;"> attempts to debunk
rapture Theology. She suggests that such a theology has only been around about
186 years and is the province of 20<span style="mso-text-raise: 2.5pt; position: relative; top: -2.5pt;">th</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Century
evangelicalism in Britain and the United States. Rapture Theology, she argues,
began in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1830 when fifteen-year-old Margaret MacDonald
attended a healing service and had a vision of a two-stage return of Christ (p.
22). Her story was adapted and promoted by evangelical preacher John Nelson
Darby.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Darby
invented “dispensations,” time intervals in which God has a time table for the
unfolding of humans’ time on Earth. From this term came “dispensationalism,” a
school of thinking about end times (p. 23). In this view God has divided all of
human history into seven ages, or dispensations. He has sets of rules for
people during each dispensation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Rossing
shows how dispensationalism has grown in Britain and the United States. She suggests
it is an attractive theology because it is presented in a rational, almost
scientific way. It fits with the rise of science following the enlightenment.
In the age when Darwin was suggesting a comprehensive system of the origin of
species, Darby was providing a comprehensive system that made sense of the
various contradictions in biblical passages. This is a Weberian way of seeing
the rise of dispensationalism and its place within a larger cultural shift in
ways of thinking. Theology was changing, moving in a more rational direction as
science rose as a voice of authority in society at-large.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Rossing
goes on to argue that dispensationalists base their entire theological argument
on three verses at the end of Daniel Chapter 9 (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">p.
25<span style="color: #212121;">). It has to do with a countdown to when Christ
returns. The clock is ticking, when it gets to zero is when Christ returns.
Apparently, however, the countdown stopped when the Jews rejected Christ as
their king (</span>p. 26<span style="color: #212121;">). For the last 2,000 years
we have been living in the “church age.” In my observations I have heard
pastors speak of how “We are now in the church age.” At some point, any minute
now, God will remove all Christians from Earth, Christ will return, and the
countdown will commence.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Rossing
writes that many evangelical and bible churches subscribe to dispensational
theology while most mainstream Protestant churches and the Catholic Church do
not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For
some, dispensationalist theology is an incorrigible reality, for others it is
nonsense. People’s behaviors are shaped by which of these camps, if any, they
identify. Their minds will not be changed. Others’ disregard for the story one
believes is proof enough that the story is correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Latter-Day
Saints and Gender</span></b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Members of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that there are three separate
existences for people. First we are formless spirits, created by Heavenly
Father and Mother living in a spirit world. Heavenly Father (God) creates us as
males and females with all of our masculine and feminine attributes intact. We
are brought into Earthly existence through birth to a woman. Earthly existence
is a test. We are judged, upon death, to have followed more or less closely to
God’s commandments and, consequently, are sent to one of a number of eternal existences
beyond “life.” Latter-Day Saints believe that gender is essential and innate.
Males are masculine and females are feminine in the same way that males have
penises and females have vaginas. Thus, part of our earthly test is to act
masculine and feminine; to deviate is to risk points with God upon death.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Spirits are brought
onto the Earth through biological procreation. This means men and women must
have sex; sperm need to penetrate eggs. At the highest levels, then, being male
means seeking to have children with females, and vice versa. In “The Hallmarks
of Righteous Women,” Sumerau and Cragun (2015) quote passages from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Ensign</i>, an LDS magazine, and speeches
from the LDS General Conference which state that women should be proud of and
utilize their God-given femininity not only to attract men, but in everyday
situations. God gave women such things as cuteness, nurturing, and gentleness.
Women should use these, not try to overcome them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This understanding of
LDS ideas about gender helps explain the activities of some Latter-Day Saints
in everyday life. Those that truly believe LDS doctrine, and obviously there is
a continuum from full believers to non-believers, will act in ways they
understand to be innate and essential. Full-believing LDS women will act
feminine: nurturing, gentle, respectful. They will put up mental barriers to
outside notions that there is gender inequality within the Church.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This last idea
suggests the difficulties of maintaining a consistent religious identity in
complex modern societies. In a small Utah town like, say, Loa, where virtually
everyone of the 529 residents are members of the Church, one can go about one’s
life – to the grocers, to church, to school, to the bank – and interact with
others who fully support your stories about, in this case, gender being
God-given, essential, and innate. One’s gender belief story is consistent for
others and for self.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In a larger city,
however, one cannot be so sure that one’s gender story will be supported from
moment to moment. A member of the Church in St. George, for instance, will find
their gender identity supported at church, sure, and maybe at the grocery store
(60% of the population is LDS after all). But what about at college? The
professors at Dixie State University are much more interested in the social
construction of gender than in its innateness. One’s core gender identity
beliefs might be challenged at college, not only in the classroom, but also at
off-campus gatherings where there might not be a Latter-Day Saint majority, or
by campus clubs like LGBTQIA+ who believe sex and gender are separate things
and (both of them) malleable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 232.5pt 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What about in a truly
diverse big city like Los Angeles? A Church member in Los Angeles rarely comes
in contact with similar others on a situation-to-situation basis. They may have
an LDS family and go to an LDS church, but when they go to school or to the
bank, a restaurant, or to the beach, there will be few Church members. This
means a full-believing Latter-Day Saint will constantly come in contact with
people who have non-LDS beliefs about gender. If they want to maintain a
consistent gender identity they will have to be religiously reflexive, they
will literally have to be self-conscious from situation to situation. “How
should a Mormon woman act in this situation,” one will think. “Many of the
people in this situation do not have similar beliefs about gender that I do, so
I will have to support myself in my gender action decisions. Others will not
support me. Indeed, they may actively challenge me.” This will happen from
situation to situation throughout the daily life of a full-believing Latter-Day
Saint in a modern complex metropolis.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">God
Enables Our Enemies against Us<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The “God uses enemies
against us” story is powerful among contemporary Christians. They talk to each
other about the fact that (a) we have enemies and (b) God uses those enemies
against us so that we might keep our faith. A core organizing principle for many
religious groups is <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">because we are, we
have enemies. </i>For example, since the beginning of recorded history Jews
have been persecuted. This point is included in their belief stories, it
provides a common historical thread for them that, when internalized, says, “We
are Jews and we have all, presently and in our past, been oppressed.” I am not
suggesting that Jews are fabricating their persecution. They are not. I am
simply pointing out the importance of the remembrance of this persecution to
their belief stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Debating
Evolution is a Tired Story<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One
Sunday, Steve, a pastor from a Lutheran Church in Pennsylvania, was in the
congregation at The Lutheran Church. Steve was a pastor in Colorado when Pastor
Gordon was a pastor in Salt Lake City; they crossed paths a few times. Steve
and his family were vacationing in the area and stopped in for Pastor Gordon’s
service. Steve and I chatted a bit during fellowship time after the service. Pastor
Gordon, while making his after service rounds, stopped by and chatted with
Steve and I a couple times. One time in particular, when I suggested that I
might have Pastor Gordon over to DSU as a guest speaker, “Maybe I can get Pastor
Gordon and a biology professor together to debate evolution,” I said, and Pastor
Gordon and Steve made the exact same movement and sound, at the same time: they
rolled their eyes, shook their heads, and groaned. They both conveyed the idea
that this is a tired subject, that they get asked to do it all the time, and
that they are tired of it. The fact that they made the exact same movements and
sounds tells me something: This is a “line” that WELS Lutheran ministers use
when this topic comes up. Not only do they use this line, it has come out of
their interactional institutional construction of reality. They teach and
reinforce this response to this specific topic with each other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 6.5in 7.0in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In this, the final
substantive chapter of the book, I presented a series of stories that religious
people encounter that contradict their own belief stories and, thus, their
perceived realities. The result of contradictory stories is that they challenge
the actions and identities of the contradicted. “If what I believe is not true,
then have I been living a lie?” We all deal with contradictory stories and we
all have incorrigible realities that provide belief stories for us to dismiss
them and support our own.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Chapter 12<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion/Discussion<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In this
book I addressed the age-old sociological question, “How is reality constructed
and maintained?” (Berger and Luckman 1966)<span style="color: #00b0f0;"> </span>The
answer I provided is “belief stories.” People’s realities are the result of
interactional processes designed to express beliefs about the world,
situations, and their places within them. People’s actions are the result of
their beliefs about reality. In this sense I answered a second sociological
question not directly presented in the opening chapter, “Why do people act?”
People act, my story goes, because they believe in particular realities. When
we believe it to be real, we act as if it is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I began my
story in chapter two of the book with a discussion of reality as a moral order.
To express a belief in a type of reality is to express morality. People seem to
want life to mean something because if life means something, then their place
in life means something. Most people do not like the idea that life is a
meaningless accident, so they create stories to justify the world, the
universe, and their places within them. To express and attach themselves to a
reality is to express and attach themselves to the truth. “This reality is
correct and righteous,” their stories go, “because it is the one that I and my
people inhabit.” It is a basic sociological process (Glaser and Strauss 1967)
that people tell stories that lay moral claim to their perceived realities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Chapters
three and four are descriptive, showing salient places where religious belief
stories take place. Chapter Three provides a detailed comparative examination
of the programs of three Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) church
services that took place on the same dates in 2016. As I show, the substance of
the programs are similar. The programs, regardless of particular church, cover
the same scriptural readings, for instance. They all provide the same practical
information as well and are organized in much the same fashion. Not only, then,
do these programs provide readers with an understanding of the services of WELS
churches, they also provide data suggesting that one type of belief story
presentation is that which comes from above. The fact that these three programs
are so similar shows that the substance of WELS services is dictated from the
top ranks of the church hierarchy, suggesting a centralized control of the
belief stories told at their churches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In Chapter
Four I presented descriptive snippets from some of the religious services I
attended, since this is where the bulk of my data came from. Readers gain a
look at the goings-on of several types of religious services in this chapter,
as well as an understanding of the situational conditions in which religious
belief stories occur.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The rest of
the book dealt directly with belief stories as empirical realities. I began in
Chapter Five by properly discussing the socially constructed nature of belief
stories; they exist in interactions with others and self. Chapters Six through
Eleven present types of belief stories I encountered in my research of people
being religious. These story types include distinctions (Chapter Six), stories
beget actions (Chapter Seven), stories as text and texts as stories (Chapter
Eight), stories about god (Chapter Nine), born again stories (Chapter Ten), and
stories dealing with contradictions (Chapter Eleven).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In this
text I answered the question “how is reality constructed and maintained” by
highlighting some realities religious people present to one another. The larger
theoretical point, however, is that the enactment of belief stories is a basic
social process that spans interactional populations and settings. Rock music
fans, for instance, engage in what I call “definitional talk,” a form of belief
story where they make distinctions between genres and qualities of music (Smith-Lahrman
2010b<span style="color: #00b0f0;">)</span>. Patrons at coffee houses engage in
belief stories centered around shared norms of personal space and the rules for
breaking those norms; their behaviors rest with their beliefs that coffee
houses foster standing patterns of behavior unique to their chunk of space (Smith-Lahrman
2010). In everyday interactions, as another place where belief stories are
found, people present and read each others’ gesture clusters in co-creating
definitions of situations, realities (Smith-Lahrman 2010c).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The above
examples of arenas in which belief stories occur are, of course, from my own
research. Examples of belief stories can be found in the work of others, too.
Danielle Lindemann (2012), for example, shows how dominatrices and their
clients use belief stories to create realities of power and submission in
controlled BDSM events. In another work, Lindemann (2019) shows how
non-cohabiting married couples (commuter marriages) create realities in which
they live apart due to necessity even though the subjects of her study were
well-educated and financially well-off. Gary Alan Fine includes in the more
than 16 ethnographies he has written, descriptions of belief stories about
multiple realities by players of Dungeons and Dragons (1983), tales of the
negotiated realities of chefs in the backstage cooking areas of restaurants (1997),
and the ways art world support personnel like dealers and collectors create
stories of authenticity to frame the work of their outside artist clients
(2004).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The
examples of belief story studies just given are from only two authors, but of
course there are many more. Thousands exist in the outputs not just of
sociologists, but of anthropologists and journalists as well. Indeed, anything
labeled as ethnography in the academic literature is probably a tale of belief
stories created and enacted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The fact
that I suggest such a broad application of the concept of belief stories leads
to one of the weaknesses of my book. If belief stories explain <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">everything</i> that people do on a daily
interactional basis, then they also explain <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">nothing</i>.
If everything people do is an attempt to create and maintain reality, then how
do we explain the differences between the many types of activities in which
people engage? The answer rests with rigorous empirical research. Sociologists
can, as I briefly do in the last few paragraphs, reexamine past ethnographies
to classify their tales as one type of belief story or another, or they can
embark on research of their own with the same goal. In the end, I wrote a book
in which I attempt a broad theoretical explanation of a fundamental human
behavior, the social construction of reality. I suggest that the enactment of
belief stories is how this is done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Further
belief story research might also be done on the interactional negotiations that
take place between people as they attempt to convince each other of
contradictory realities. While we often share belief stories and, thus, agree
on realities, it is noteworthy that this is not always so. Included in this
research would be a discussion of the power dynamics that are part of belief
story interactions. Some people and groups have the resources to impose their
stories and realities on others while some do not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Other
research could study the channels and processes through which belief stories
travel. I suggested at least two such channels in this book: religious texts
and religious services. But how do other, more secular, belief stories move
from one group to another, one land to another, one generation to another?
Detailed and diverse empirical research can answer this question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Finally, it
bears repeating that this work was not a study on the sociology of religion. It
is a study in which I used religious practices as strategic sites for
understanding a basic social process. In observing religious services I
discovered that the stories told there are of things such as God and the
supernatural which are beyond empirical study. Religious folks’ enactments of
belief stories are dramatic examples of behaviors we all engage in all the
time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Curt Kirkwood from </i>Meat Puppets II <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">to</i>
No Joke!. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Smith-Lahrman, Matthew. 2015a.</span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext;"> “</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">Up on the Sun</span></i><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">: A Retracted Segment from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Meat
Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from</i> Meat Puppets II <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">to</i> No Joke!." </span><span style="color: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext;"><a href="https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/up-on-sun-retracted-segment-from-meat.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/up-on-sun-retracted-segment-from-meat.html</span></a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">. Retrieved: October 24. 2021.<o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">Smith-Lahrman, Matthew. 2015b. “The Meat Puppets’ Desert Trilogy: <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>: A
Discarded Remnant from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Meat Puppets
and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from </i>Meat Puppets II <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">to </i>No Joke!.” </span><span style="color: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext;"><a href="https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-meat-puppets-desert-trilogy-out-my.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-meat-puppets-desert-trilogy-out-my.html</span></a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">. Retrieved: October
24. 2021.<o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">Smith-Lahrman, Matthew. 2015c. “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden
Places</i>: An Excised Piece from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from </i>Meat Puppets II <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">to </i>No Joke!.” </span><span style="color: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext;"><a href="https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html</span></a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">. Retrieved: October 24. 2021.<o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">Smith-Lahrman, Matthew. 2015d. “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too
High to Die</i>: A Deleted Element from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from </i>Meat Puppets II <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">to </i>No Joke!<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">.” </i></span><span style="color: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext;"><a href="https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/too-high-to-die-deleted-element-from.html"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/too-high-to-die-deleted-element-from.html</span></i></a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">. Retrieved: October 24. 2021.<o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; tab-stops: 153.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Smith-Lahrman,
Matthew. 2015e. “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>: A Section
Removed from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Meat Puppets and the
Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from </i>Meat Puppets II <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">to </i>No Joke!.” </span><span style="color: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext;"><a href="https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/no-joke-section-removed-from-meat.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/01/no-joke-section-removed-from-meat.html</span></a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">. Retrieved: October
24. 2021.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;"><o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; tab-stops: 153.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Smith-Lahrman,
Matthew. 2015f. “The Meat Puppets as a Case of the Movement from Punk to
Alternative Rock.” </span><span style="color: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext;"><a href="https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-meat-puppets-as-case-of-movement.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">https://smithlahrman.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-meat-puppets-as-case-of-movement.html</span></a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">. </span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Retrieved: October 24. 2021.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;"><o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; tab-stops: 153.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Smith-Lahrman,
Matthew. 2016. “Preliminary Findings from an Ethnography of Religion in
Washington County, Utah,” presented at The Association for the Sociology of
Religion Annual Meetings, Seattle, Washington, August 20, 2016.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;"><o:p></o:p></span></h3>
<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; tab-stops: 153.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Sumerau, J. Edward and
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<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; tab-stops: 153.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Summers, Kevin G. N.D.
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<h3 style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 9.0pt; tab-stops: 153.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Sutherland, Edwin H.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 10.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-indent: -.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Thomas, William I. and
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<div style="mso-element: footnote-list;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><br clear="all" />
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<!--[endif]-->
<div id="ftn1" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Beginning July 1, 2022, Dixie State University will be named Utah Tech
University.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn2" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
“If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences” (Thomas
and Thomas 1929).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn3" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
This is changing. Research and publishing are now openly discussed as avenues
toward tenure.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn4" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> <span style="mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin;">The number
of adherents per 1,000 in the population.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn5" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn5;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> I
did not attend any non-English speaking language services.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn6" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn6;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> I
changed the names of people I formally interviewed as well as the names of the
congregations from which they came. Otherwise, the names of congregations are
accurate.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn7" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn7;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
The circumstances for some of the congregations have changed in the years since
I observed them.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn8" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn8;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
This article was sent to me unsolicited. It arrived hardcopy as a single
document, not as part of an issue of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Journal for the American Academy of Religion</i>. The quote I give here was
part of a cover letter that accompanied and introduced the article.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn9" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn9;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
This is an eyeball estimate.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn10" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn10;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Admittedly, I know very little American Sign Language, but I have seen enough
of it to recognize its common usage.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn11" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref11" name="_ftn11" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn11;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Within 18 months of my writing this, SMCC had moved out of this location and
into their new, self-sustaining building.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn12" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref12" name="_ftn12" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn12;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
From January 2 – February 11, 2016, armed protesters occupied the Malheur <span style="background: white; color: #202124; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin;">National Wildlife <span style="mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">Refuge</span> in Harney County, <span style="mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">Oregon (</span></span><span style="background: white; color: black; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-color-alt: windowtext;">Oregonian/Oregonlive 2019</span><span style="background: white; color: #202124; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin;">).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn13" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref13" name="_ftn13" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn13;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
See Smith-Lahrman (1997)<span style="color: red;"> </span>for a discussion of the
“U” shape audience configuration at rock music shows.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn14" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref14" name="_ftn14" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn14;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> I
retrieved the beliefs in 2015. Calvary Chapel St. George has since changed the
content of the “What We Believe” section of their web page.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn15" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref15" name="_ftn15" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn15;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> <span style="font-family: "Courier New"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: "Courier New";">In the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ordinances have a different meaning
than this. In LDS culture ordinances refer to sacred rights and ceremonies.
They are things that some members, those who are ordained, perform upon others.
Some of these, Saving Ordinances, must occur for individual members to be exalted,
their eternal progression to be one with Jesus and live with their families
with God.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn16" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref16" name="_ftn16" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn16;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[16]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Pastor Paul is of the Four Square Church, he is talking about an Assemblies of
God Church. Both denominations fall under the umbrella of the Pentecostal
Christian movement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn17" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="https://d.docs.live.net/444ba518500cdd50/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Book/Final%20Version/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%5eJ%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality/Belief%20Stories%5eJ%20Religion%20and%20the%20Social%20Construction%20of%20Reality.docx#_ftnref17" name="_ftn17" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn17;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[17]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Welch left the band in 2005, published the book in 2007, and rejoined Korn in
2013.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-77831463667009880252020-05-29T10:57:00.001-06:002020-05-29T11:07:12.178-06:00Association of Applied and Clinical Sociology Applied U Webinar: Saving Your Program Through Applied Sociology (Dixie State University's Bachelor's Degree in Applied Sociology: Year Three)<br />
Click below to watch me and Dr. Robert Oxley wax academic about the Applied Sociology program at Dixie State University.<br />
<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8LXvIrxJgE&feature=youtu.be">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8LXvIrxJgE&feature=youtu.be</a>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-19874894583907771112020-05-25T14:49:00.000-06:002020-05-25T15:16:37.152-06:00The Ramones Place in Rock History<br />
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">This is a chapter, written in 2019, for a book that never came to be.</span></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<div style="text-align: center;">
<div style="text-align: center;">
<div style="text-align: left;">
<div>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"><br /></span></span></b></div>
<div>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">The Ramones
represent a pivotal moment in the history of rock music. For a moment, all
music that came before them was irrelevant, all after bore their resemblance. Specifically,
the Ramones usher in the era of punk rock. Prior to the Ramones there were punk
bands, they simply weren’t labeled as such. In the Ramones’ wake there were
punk bands, labeled as such, expected to present themselves as such. In this
chapter I first present a discussion of genre and art worlds as they relate to
rock music, then discuss the New York rock scene that birthed the Ramones, the
first four years of the Ramones (the years that changed the direction of rock
music), and, finally, punk rock in the years following the emergence of the
band.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Music
Genres and Art Worlds<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Fundamental to the study of genre, argues Deena
Weinstein (1991), are the social transactions between artists, audiences, and
mediators. Artists, of course, are those who make the art; in the case of rock
music the basic artistic unit is the musician. Rock, however, is not a solo
art, though some musicians do play alone. More likely, however, rock musicians
form bands, the genre’s actual basic artistic unit.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Rock bands perform for audiences who buy
merchandise, recordings, t-shirts and hats emblazoned with band’s names, and
attend concerts. Fans read articles about bands, genres, and scenes. They watch
videos. Artists’ performances and audience’s consumptions, writes Weinstein,
constitute an interactional transaction.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mediators, the third player in the popular
music transactional triad, bring artists and audiences together. A lay term for
mediators is the “music industry.” Hardcopy magazines and fanzines, in the
1970s when the Ramones emerged, provided photographs, interviews, and articles
about bands. Nowadays most of these sources take the form of websites and
blogs, sometimes run by musicians themselves, sometimes by fans, sometimes by
professional writers. Recording companies recruit and record bands, and then
press records and distribute them to the public at large; nowadays the hardcopy
recording industry has given way to the cyber world of streaming and
downloadable songs and records. In this latter case, then, the computer and software
industry are mediators bringing fans and artists together.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Artists, audiences, and mediators interact
based on understood sonic, verbal, and visual codes. Sonic codes refer to the
sounds associated with genre presentations. Rock music, for instance, typically
features guitar, bass, drums, and vocals, played loud in 4/4 time. Verbal codes
most obviously have to do with the typical lyric content of songs within a
genre. Verbal codes might also include band and song names, artist stage names,
names of recordings, and the names fans give to themselves (e.g. Deadheads). A
genre’s visual dimension includes the look of artists and audience members as
well as visual art that accompanies artists’ sonic and verbal presentations,
like album art and stage design.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally, Weinstein, by way of Ronald Byrnside
(1975), lays out a plan for understanding the emergence and careers of music genres.
In the formative stage a genre does not yet have a name or recognizable codes.
There are bands, songs, and recordings that, in retrospect, exhibit qualities
of the genre, but at the time fans, musicians, and mediators don’t label the
music as being in the genre, nor do they distinguish the music as separate from
the artistic sources from which it springs. In the crystallization phase
artists, fans, and mediators self-consciously label unique sounds and images as
being indicative of the new genre; sonic, verbal, and visual codes come to
represent artists and fans as being part of one genre and not another. Fans,
artists, and mediators exclude those who don’t exhibit agreed upon codes from the
genre. Finally, in decay genre codes become predictable<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn1" name="_ednref1" style="mso-endnote-id: edn1;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[i]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>. Some artists, mediators,
and fans remain loyal to the genre, playing predictable songs in predictable
fashion, but the genre, as a whole, is no longer new (though it may remain
relevant).<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Howard S. Becker provides another way of
understanding art and genre in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Art Worlds</i>
(1982). An art world, argues Becker, consists of all the people connected to
the production, distribution, and consumption of a given type of art. Rather
than having three players in the artistic transaction, as Weinstein does,
Becker suggests two: artists and support personnel. Artists, of course,
directly produce the art. They are painters, sculptors, writers, and, in the
case of rock music, musicians and bands. Typically, however, artists can’t go
it alone. Unless they want to create their music from scratch, using homemade
instruments and performance venues, they need all kinds of help. Support
personnel such as instrument makers make instruments in factories that are
tooled for making them. They are sold in stores (or online) and delivered via
channels made for such deliveries and sales. Others make instrument tuners that
clip on to the end of guitars, calibrated to detect whether the instrument’s
strings are vibrating at a frequency deemed appropriate to be called a note.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Artists and support personnel act based on an ever
changing set of norms and values, similar to Weinstein’s genre codes. But
Becker’s argument focuses on art worlds more broadly than genre alone. For
instance, guitar strings are produced to make standard sounds. Guitars
themselves are made to accommodate said strings. Music stores are set-up in
ways that allow customers to peruse, try out, and buy instruments. They stock
instruments they imagine customers are looking to buy: Fender and Gibson
guitars, for instance. The list is endless. The people who make up art worlds
interact in predictable fashions that end up giving the worlds particular looks
or sounds or verbal contents. This is how we know any particular interactional
world exists.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This same logic holds true for music genres. People
recognize genres because of the typical way that artists and support personnel associated
with them do things. Rock musicians play certain instruments – guitar, bass,
drums – in a certain fashion – loud, 4/4. Instrument makers, in the form of
support personnel, create instruments that typical rock musicians want to use.
Touring bands bring along roadies who know the ins and outs of typical
instruments and stage set-ups. Rock bands sing about typical things: sex,
drugs, rock and roll. Audience members purchase tickets in ways typical for a
rock show and behave in ways typical for fans at typical rock shows: dancing,
shouting, singing, drinking, smoking. The list goes on. Witnessing and
participating in these typical interactions is how people recognize the
existence of worlds and genres.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Since genres and art worlds are interactional products,
they are never static. People play typical instruments in new ways, for
instance, or they combine visual, verbal, and/or sonic codes from disparate
genres or worlds in ways that create new genres: rock and roll evolves from
country and rhythm and blues, to rock, and splinters into sub-genres like
psychedelic, punk, and alternative. Some folks do their best to maintain the
integrity of crystallized genres (think Eric Clapton and the blues), others do
their best to destroy the old and create something new (think Jimi Hendrix and
the blues).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In a word, art worlds and music genres are no
different than most other aspects of human life. They are constructed,
maintained, and destroyed through social interaction.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center; text-indent: .5in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Formation:
The Velvet Underground and New York Dolls<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The importance of the Ramones in the history of rock
lies with their relationships to earlier music genres and art worlds and their
influences on those that came after. The pivotal historic moment for the band lasts
from their emergence on the New York City scene in 1974 through their first
four albums – <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Ramones</i> (1976), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i> (1977), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rocket to Russia</i> (1977), and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Road
to Ruin</i> (1978).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The rock and roll torch handed to the Ramones originates
with the Velvet Underground and runs through the New York Dolls; it flourishes
early in the art community surrounding Andy Warhol and moves through the rock
scene centered at Max’s Kansas City and CBGB. It includes bands like Suicide,
the Talking Heads, the Patti Smith Group, Blondie, the Dead Boys, Television,
Kiss, and Blue Oyster Cult. In turn, after the release of four seminal albums
and performing hundreds of live dates, the band passes the torch, rechristened
“punk rock,” to a new set of bands and support personnel embracing new sets of
sonic, visual, and verbal codes: the Clash, Sex Pistols, and Damned in England;
X, the Weirdos, Germs, and Black Flag in America.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Punk rock’s formative stage begins in the New York
underground art scene hosted by Andy Warhol and his Factory’s house band, the
Velvet Underground (VU). Warhol served as a support personnel benefactor; he
gave the band a space to practice and play, a live performance vehicle in the
form of the Exploding Plastic Inevitable, and funded their debut album (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Velvet Underground and Nico</i> 1967). <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Warhol’s funding of the band and his
popularity in the pop art world, along with his creative spirit, allowed the VU
free artistic reign on the album, which contains songs with lyrical content at
odds with much popular music at the time: direct references to hard drug use
(“Heroin” and “I’m Waiting for the Man”) and unconventional sexualities (“Venus
in Furs” and “There She Goes Again”) are grounded in New York City street
culture rather than in the puppy love of middle-class teenagers as was common
for rock songs of the day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sonically, the Velvet Underground presented
something new and challenging. Comprised of Lou Reed (guitar, vocals), John
Cale (viola, keyboards, bass), Sterling Morrison (guitar), and Moe Tucker
(drums), the band created sounds that oscillated between gritty and smooth,
grating and sugary, unlistenable and pop. John Cale played his viola in a
drone, creating sonic fields for Reed and Morrison to improvise in. Tucker held
a hypnotic, steady beat with a minimalist drum set consisting of tom toms,
snare, and upturned bass played with mallets rather than sticks. Though
mesmerizing in retrospect, the band’s records went largely ignored and unloved
in their day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Velvet Underground’s use of visuals was also
ahead of their time and contrary to much of the visuals of the day. As part of
Warhol’s Exploding Plastic inevitable, an art event of sorts, the band presided
over a mélange of auditory and visual stimuli; think of the Acid Tests on
Heroin. The musicians themselves presented a cooler-than-thou New York City
attitude, wearing their hair long, sporting dark shades, leather, and visages
that would in later incarnations of punk rock be described as blank. Light
shows and Warhol’s films were projected on the walls and ceilings while the VU
played and Edie Sedgwick and Gerard Melanga danced dominant. As with the sound
of the band, the viduals of the Exploding Plastic Inevitable were at odds with
the popular performing arts of the day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Velvet Underground set the stage for the
emergence of a rock music scene in New York City where none had been; there
simply wasn’t much happening in the Big Apple in the late-sixties and
early-seventies. The New York Dolls emerged in this environment. Formed in
1971, the Dolls were originally linked to the emerging glam rock scene
inhabited mostly in England by David Bowie and Mott the Hoople, as well as with
the big time pub rock scene represented by Rod Stewart and the Faces. Not
surprisingly, they were as popular in Britain as they were in the United
States.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It is easy to see how the New York Dolls were
accepted into the English hard rock glam seen. Musically they had a sloppy
raunchy swing ala the Rolling Stones. They played the blues and classic
American rock and roll. Like the Stones they had swagger, daring audiences to
ignore them. David Johansen was Mick Jagger to Johnny Thunder’s Keith Richards.
They dressed in what outsiders saw as drag, what the dolls say was simply how
they tramped around NYC: in make-up, teased hair, platforms, and glittery spandex
pants and tops, the Dolls looked every bit like big city street walkers.
Lyrically, well, they sang of drugs, sex, and rock and roll.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Dolls cut their performing chops in 1972 in New
York City. They held residencies at Mercer’s Art Center and Max’s Kansas City
in the summer and early fall of that year. In October they toured England,
opening for Lou Reed and the Faces. The band was the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">it</i> show for hip young New Yorkers. A who’s who of the city’s
soon-to-be dubbed punk rock scene went to these gigs: Patti Smith and Lenny
Kaye (soon to form the Patti Smith Group), Tom Verlaine and Richard Hell (who
would form Television), and members of the soon to be Ramones. Johnny Ramone
(2012) writes<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The New
York Dolls really did it for me. I saw them over and over, twenty times in all,
starting on August 15, 1972, at the Mercer Arts Center. (P. 34).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In 1973 the Dolls played more NYC residencies, one gig
at the Kenmore Club in Boston, and an American tour in support of Mott the
Hoople. The Dolls were a band that Johnny, as the Ramones leader, would
emulate. They played hard-driving rock and roll and looked great. Speaking of
Johnny Thunders, Johnny writes, “He looked so cool, I figured that he had to be
decent because image was so important in rock and roll, and he had that”
(ibid).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-add-space: auto; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Crystallization: The Ramones<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The four who would form the Ramones – John
Cummings (Johnny), Thomas Erdelyi (Tommy), Douglass Colvin (Dee Dee), and
Jeffrey Hyman (Joey)<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn2" name="_ednref2" style="mso-endnote-id: edn2;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[ii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> –
grew up together in the Forrest Hills neighborhood of Queens, City of New York.
Born in the late-forties and early-1950s, the original members of the band were
at the right place at the right time to catch rock and roll and rock music’s
greatest acts. Johnny writes of how he gained access to early rock and roll 45s
through the “nameless guy” who stocked the jukebox at his parent’s bar in
Stewart Manor; Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis Presley, and Fats Domino were all part of
Johnny’s collection. Joey and his brother Mickey<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn3" name="_ednref3" style="mso-endnote-id: edn3;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[iii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> filled their early
collections with singles by Lesley Gore, the Crystals, Dion, and Boris Pickett
(Leigh 2009). Of course, New York City was a stop for all touring bands, and
Johnny, Joey, Dee Dee, and Tommy caught their shows. Johnny saw the Rolling
Stones in 1964, as well as the Beatles in this same year at their famed Shea
Stadium concert. He also saw the Who, sat front and center at the Jimi Hendrix
Experience, Black Sabbath, the Doors (10 times), the Amboy Dukes, Alice Cooper,
the MC5, and the Stooges. While Joey wasn’t allowed to go to the Beatles show,
he and Mickey did catch gigs by Marvin Gaye, the Supremes, the Temptations, the
Ronettes, and the Animals.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This is all to say that the members of the Ramones
had solid rock music educations. The bands they saw ranged from Motown pop and
soul to hard rock psychedelic, many of them had strong followings in the United
States and England. They didn’t stick to just the most popular touring bands of
the era, either, they also went into the city and caught local bands at the
clubs.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Johnny studied the bands he saw. He paid attention
to the things they did well, and those they didn’t. How did they dress? How did
they stand on stage? Did they banter with the audience? How did that go over?
Johnny took detailed mental notes of these things and incorporated them into
his directorship of the Ramones.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The young Ramones were not only interested in music,
they were also fashion conscious. Johnny writes of being enamored of Rolling
Stone Brian Jones’ style, trying to imitate him in his own dress. All of them
enjoyed clubbing in the city, trying out the various and fickle styles that
came and went in the scenes they frequented. As the seventies began, Tommy, Joey,
Johnny, and Dee Dee found themselves visually emulating the burgeoning glam
rock fashions championed by the New York Dolls but also worn by the likes of
Lou Reed, David Bowie, and Iggy Pop.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Johnny and Tommy were about the same age, while Joey
and Dee Dee were a few years younger. They hung out together sometimes as
friends, sometimes as drug buddies, and sometimes as band mates, for much of
their youth and young adulthood, though Joey’s younger brother ran more with
this crowd than did Joey. It was as young men working construction that Johnny
and Dee Dee started keeping serious company with each other, drinking beers at
lunch breaks. It was Tommy who suggested Dee Dee and Johnny start a band
together. They resisted his urgings for a few years. Johnny had tried his hand
at playing bass guitar in a band with Mickey a few years earlier and didn’t
find it fulfilling, he didn’t think he had what it took to be a rock and roller.
He and Dee Dee just wanted to be “normal,” not pop music weirdoes.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It was after seeing the New York Dolls that Johnny
and Dee Dee decided they could start their own band. After all, the Dolls
weren’t good musicians. Instead, they had passion, style, and swagger. Johnny,
familiar as he was with the art of rock, saw in the Dolls the complete package,
a performance art powerhouse. “It was an event,” wrote Johnny (ibid). “This was
entertainment, not musicianship and people who take themselves too seriously.
And for me, it was always about entertainment” (p. 34); Johnny never wavered
from the idea of the Ramones as entertainers.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Ramones began with Dee Dee and Johnny only, both
playing guitar. Tommy would be their “manager and producer”. Soon, their friend
Richie was brought in to play bass, with Joey on drums. Richie, who wasn’t able
to get the hang of the bass, was dropped from the band and Dee Dee moved to
bass. They played as a power trio for a couple months, even putting on a live gig
for invited friends.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Things weren’t gelling, however. While Dee Dee and
Johnny were improving on their instruments, Joey wasn’t, Johnny refused to
sing, and Dee Dee couldn’t sing and play his bass at the same time. Johnny was
ready to kick Joey out of the band. Tommy convinced him to move Joey to the
front, as the lead singer, freeing Dee Dee from singing duties. Johnny did not
think Joey was handsome enough to be a lead singer, but he did like the geek
factor he brought up front, and Tommy said Joey brought an Alice Cooper type
image to the band. They auditioned a number of people to replace Joey on drums
but, in the end, Tommy took the job. The historically most recognized line-up
of the Ramones was now in place.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Dee Dee was the first to adopt the surname Ramone.
He heard that Paul McCartney used the name when checking into hotels. The rest of
the band adopted the moniker soon after. It gave them a sense of unity, an
image, a way for fans to remember them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sonically, the early Ramones were limited by their inabilities
to play their instruments. They wrote short songs with simple chord structures,
one or two songs each rehearsal. According to Johnny (ibid), the songs were
“pure rock and roll” (p. 43). The band did not feel any responsibility to the
blues, that was a generation before them. Instead, they took their cues from
the Stones and Stooges, the MC5 and New York Dolls. These bands paid homage to
the blues, the Ramones to them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The trademark look the band ended up with took a few
months to nail down. Following the Dolls, the Ramones donned a glam look in
their early gigs: spandex pants and glitter. Tommy suggested that this look
might not go over so well in middle America. Johnny was already wearing a
leather jacket and the rest of the band followed suit. It was important that
kids coming to Ramones gigs could dress like the band; jeans, t-shirts, and
tennis shoes would work well in mid-America, a section of the country the band
would have to conquer if they wanted to succeed. This would be their “uniform,”
as Johnny calls it (ibid p. 46); a uniform that defined not just the Ramones,
but the punk rock genre for a generation to come.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Johnny applied to the Ramones what he had learned in
his mental studies of other rock bands. Never tune your guitar on stage, for
instance, was a conscious decision, as was start the show as soon as you walk
on stage, Johnny and Dee were to move to the front of the stage, and then back,
never cross the stage, Joey should stand, glued to the microphone, the entire
gig; the speakers and amps were measured out so the band would not look “lost”
on stage. The Ramones, Johnny and Tommy in particular, had a vision of the band
as professional entertainers, and a “look” was integral to this vision.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Ramones early song lyrics were as minimalist as
their sound and look. One of the first two songs they wrote, “I Don’t Wanna
Walk Around with You,” consists of two lines – “I don’t wanna walk around with
you/So why you wanna walk around with me” – arranged in a single verse,
repeated four times, broken only by one “I don’t wanna go out with you,” and
one “alright.” “Blitzkrieg Bop,” the lead track on their first album, was
slightly more complex, with three verses, repeated three times in 2:15, punctuated
with what became a Ramones calling-card, “Hey ho, let’s go!”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In 1974 Hilly Krystal opened a down and out dive
bar, CBGB & OMFUG<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn4" name="_ednref4" style="mso-endnote-id: edn4;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[iv]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>, to a host of unknown
rock and roll bands: Blondie, Television, the Patti Smith Group, Talking Heads.
The Ramones first gig at the club was on August 16, 1974. They would play 25
shows there in 1974 and another 33 in 1975 (Ramones 2019). CBGB became
synonymous with the Ramones, and they with it. Images abound of the band
standing outside, leather jackets and too-small t-shirts, posing cool.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Early Ramones’ shows at CBGB attracted few people, a
handful of friends were all. Truth be told, the band was not ready for larger
audiences at this point. Video of an early show finds Tommy, Dee Dee, Joey, and
Johnny stuttering through their set (Sundaybop 2013). They start songs and
stop. They argue about which songs to play. Joey does some awkward leg kicks
and falls to his knees a time or two, behaviors Johnny will disabuse him of in
the future. These first Ramones’ gigs rarely lasted more than twenty minutes
partly because that’s all the material they had, partly<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>because in Johnny’s mind, if the Beatles show
at Shea Stadium lasted only thirty minutes, the Ramones need not be longer;
always leave the audience wanting more, only show your strengths.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Ramones were a breath of fresh air in New York’s
rock and roll scene. The speed of their songs, their look, and the goofiness in
their lyrics signaled a new direction for the genre. The fine-tuned elitism of
the popular rock bands of the day was seen by punk rockers as stale. The
Ramones, as well as other bands, fans, and mediators in the burgeoning NY punk
scene represented a new generation. Their influence was immediate.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In January, 1976, based on the strength of their
lives shows, the Ramones signed a deal with Sire Records. They recorded their
eponymously titled debut LP in February. It was also at this time they started
playing shows outside of New York City. They made it up and down the Eastern
Seaboard – New Jersey, Boston, Connecticut – and as far west as Cleveland in
the first half of the year. Following the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Ramones</i> on April 23, and with label support, they expanded
their tour range. First, on July 4 and 5, they played in London, opening for
the Flamin’ Groovies. Here they bummed around with members of London’s
burgeoning punk rock scene. Members of the Damned, the Sex Pistols, and the
Clash went to these shows. In August they played 13 shows in California, mostly
in Los Angeles and San Francisco, meeting up with important KROQ radio DJ
Rodney Bingenheimer (ibid p. 58). The members of the Ramones were cognizant of
the fact that a new genre of rock was emerging and they were at its forefront;
musicians and fans around the country and world were jumping on the bandwagon.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Ramones</span></i><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> consists
of 14 songs in 30 minutes, the longest (“I Don’t Wanna Go Down to the Basement)
being 2:38. The songs are hard but not heavy; loud guitars set to a rapid
rhythm with some seriously funny lyrics about topics like teenage male-to-male
prostitution (“53<sup>rd</sup> and 3<sup>rd</sup>”), horror movies (“Chain
Saw,” “I Don’t Wanna Go Down to the Basement”), alternative drug use (“Now I
Wanna Sniff Some Glue”), love desired (“I Wanna be Your Boyfriend”), and love
denied (“I Don’t Wanna Walk Around with You”). “Judy is a Punk” announces the
crystallization of a genre: punk rock. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Ramones</i> was a set of songs that harkened back to the early days of rock and
roll, mixed with the pop of Motown, and spit through the heavy rock of the
late-60s and early-seventies; it was a sound and feel unlike any before.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">An attractive element of the Ramones, and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Ramones</i>, was humor. They were goofy,
though, as with any successful band, they were committed and always professional
about their project. Should people take these guys seriously? Were they the
real deal? Steve Albini, recording engineer and founding member of Big Black,
Rapeman, and Shellac, tells of how he heard the first Ramones record on a
school bus ride in Montana when another kid was playing the cassette. He thought
it was one of the funniest things he had ever heard. He was enthralled by “<span style="background: white; color: black;">this really terrible band that were making
records.”<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="background: white; color: black; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I lived by the record for about six months. Initially it was
comedy, it was a gag. We just thought, “Oh, this is that goofy record.” But
then it developed to the point where suddenly it made sense to me. I thought, “Yea,
this is the perfect form of rock music” (Smith-Lahrman 2010).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="background: white; color: black; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Albini makes clear is that the Ramone’s
humor was part and parcel of a larger package; the Ramones were a perfect rock
band for a new generation of fans.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Ramones topped off 1976 by recording <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i>, their second record, in
October; it was released on January 10, 1977. Most of the songs on the album
were written at the same time as those on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Ramones</i>, and they sound like it. They are fast and direct, especially
compared to the era’s Album Oriented Radio fair of Bob Dylan (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Desire</i>), Peter Frampton (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Frampton Comes Alive!</i>), or Wings (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Wings at the Speed of Sound</i>).<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn5" name="_ednref5" style="mso-endnote-id: edn5;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[v]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Themes on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i> range from misogynist horror
movie schlock (“Glad to See You Go,” “You’re Gonna Kill That Girl,” “You Should
Never Have Opened That Door”), to general weirdness (“Pinhead,” “Gimme Gimme
Shock Treatment”), drug use (“Carbona Not glue”), sugar-coated love ballads (“I
Remember You,” “Oh Oh I Love Her So”),and comments on the Viet Nam war
(“Commando”). All of the songs are characterized by Johnny’s down stroke power
chords, a signature style that came to epitomize punk rock.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Dee Dee and Joey wrote most of the songs on these
first two records, and knowing the biographies of these two, the songs make
sense (Ramone 1997; Leigh 2009).<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn6" name="_ednref6" style="mso-endnote-id: edn6;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[vi]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Dee Dee came from a
broken military family, first living in Berlin, then moving with his mother to
Queens. He became a teenager of the streets of NYC upon arrival. He did heroin
before hitting adulthood (he never really stopped), hitchhiked to California at
16, and came back to New York to live the underside of rock and roll. Joey
battled many illnesses, physical and mental, growing up, and was a “weird” kid
who was constantly bullied. Songs like “Now I Wanna be a Good Boy” hit at the
heart of the emotional turmoil Dee Dee was experiencing at the time. In it he
sings of desperately wanting to do the right thing while in the same breath
wanting to run away from home and be alone. “Pinhead,” though weird on the
surface, is a tale of awkwardness and loneliness. From the opening refrain
(“Gabba Gabba we accept you, We accept you, One of us”) the song tells of someone
who recognizes his own hideousness (he’s a pinhead) while pining for a care
giver for whom he has a crush.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn7" name="_ednref7" style="mso-endnote-id: edn7;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[vii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Dee Dee, as well as
Joey, it seems, pined for normal lives they never attained.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“Carbona Not Glue,” the fifth track on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i>, was replaced on a second
issue of the album after the Carbona company threatened to sue the band over
the use of the trademark name. Its replacement was “Sheena is a Punk Rocker,” a
song that also appears on the band’s third record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rocket to Russia</i>. Again, here is the band self-referencing the
scene they created. The song name drops a number of scenes Sheena could have
participated in (surfing, disco), but she chooses punk rock, she chooses the
Ramones.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The title of the Ramones’ second record refers to
the band, well, leaving New York, striking out for tours around the country and
the world. They were now professional rock musicians, even if their pocket
books did not reflect it. They left the scene they spawned and were spreading
the punk rock word around the world.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Rocket to
Russia</span></i><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">, the Ramones second release of 1977, is their masterpiece;
Johnny considers it their best record, giving it an ‘A+’ (Ramone 2012). Along
with “Sheena is a Punk Rocker,” the album contains “Teenage Lobotomy,” another
punk rock classic. Lyrically, “Teenage Lobotomy” is in the same vein as
“Pinhead” from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i>. Singer is
messed up from being exposed to DDT, a chemical used to clear foliage in Vietnam.
Therefore, listeners must assume that Singer is a veteran. He is a “real
sickie” who has no mind or cerebellum. Nonetheless, he believes all the girls
are in love with him. Like the protagonist in “Pinhead,” listeners are forced
to feel sorry for the character in “Teenage Lobotomy.” He has no chance with
the girls. The song resonates with punk rockers because, along with Singer
(Joey), they feel like outcasts, like the ones who have no chance with
society’s “normal” girls.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Other songs on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rocket
to Russia</i> highlight the band’s eclectic take on rock history. “Rockaway
Beach,” “Do You Wanna Dance,” and “Cretin Hop” showcase their pop
sensibilities, the latter of the three also falling into the category of
“weird” like “Teenage Lobotomy.” “We’re a Happy Family” is a story of a
dysfunctional family, a story many New York City punk rock kids could relate
to. “I Wanna be Well” feels like Dee Dee crying for help, wanting to kick his
drug habits; DDT pops up again.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Ramones filled their early albums with
repetition, brands. The number of songs with “wanna” in the title, or those
with sing along chants, are numerous; there are songs labeling girls as “punks”
or “headbangers.” The band’s look is a brand. Johnny was sure this needed to
happen. Like any business, bands need signature sounds and looks. To this end,
the cover shot on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rocket to Russia</i> is
almost identical to that on their first record. The band looking tough in their
ripped jeans and leather jackets, leaning against a building in a
scruffy-looking alley, vacant smirks on their faces. They are a punk band, no
doubt about it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Tommy Ramone left the band with the completion of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rocket to Russia</i>, sort of. He coproduced
each of their first three records and stayed on to produce number four, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Road to Ruin</i>. He wouldn’t produce
another Ramone’s album until 1984’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too
Tough to Die</i>. After trying out more than twenty drummers, the band chose
former Voidoids drummer Marc Steven Bell, newly christened Marky Ramone. He
would play with the band for most of the rest of their twenty-year career.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Road to
Ruin</span></i><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">
is, in Johnny’s opinion, “the last of the great Ramones albums until <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too Tough to Die</i>” (ibid p. 154). It
contains two classics, “I Wanna be Sedated,” and “She’s the One,” along with a
number of songs – “Don’t Come Close,” “I Don’t Want You,” and “Questioningly” –
with great pop sensibilities. There are also a number of punk rock songs properly
defined: “I Just Want to Have Something to Do,” “I Don’t Want You,” “I’m
Against It,” “Go Mental,” and “Bad Brain” set a formula that bands like Bad
Religion and Bad Brains would pick up in a few years.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">While they had become the embodiment of punk rock,
the Ramones were maintaining their classic rock and roll sensibilities. Examples
of this are the choices of cover songs on their first four albums. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Ramones</i> has “Let’s Dance,” a song
first recorded in 1962 by Chris Montez, written by Jim Lee. As the name
suggests, “Let’s Dance” is a dance song, a pop tune for teenagers. The band’s
other covers carry the same pop weight: “California Sun” on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i>, first recorded by Joe Jones
in 1961 and then by the Rivieras in 1964 (written by Kenny Glover); “Do You
Wanna Dance” and “Surfin’ Bird” from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rocket
to Russia</i>; and “Needles and Pins” from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Road
to Ruin</i>.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn8" name="_ednref8" style="mso-endnote-id: edn8;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[viii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
All of these songs were originally recorded between 1958 and 1964, a period of
time when rock and roll as originally presented by Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little
Richard, and Jerry Lee Lewis was transforming into rock, already or soon to be
represented by Buddy Holly and the Crickets, the Beatles, and the Rolling
Stones. They are songs of innocence and youthful fun, romance and dreams of
faraway places, heartbreak, goofiness. The Ramones were part of a similar
changing of the guard. They signaled the end of the psychedelic blues rock era
popular in the late-sixties and early-seventies, and ushered in the new punk
rock era. The early Ramones records were full of innocence, fun, and goofiness,
too, albeit presented from the perspective of hardened New York City street
life rather than the idealized teenage romances of the bands they covered. Fifteen
years of rock turned flirtation into desperation, surfin’ birds into cretins.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The cover art for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Road to Ruin</i> was drawn by fan Gus MacDonald. It is a drawing of the
band in all their punk rock glory: on stage wearing ripped jeans, t-shirts,
leather jackets, tennis shoes, a New York City skyline behind them. The
drawing, though, is in cartoon style with primary colors and distorted
proportions. It perfectly captures the silly and humorous side of the band.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Punk Rock after
the Ramones<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As mentioned, in July, 1976, the Ramones
played two shows in London: the Roundhouse on the 4<sup>th</sup> and Dingwalls
on the 5<sup>th</sup>. The reputation of the band preceded them. The Ramones
were met by hoards of punks wearing leather, ripped clothes, safety pins, and
colored hair, wanting to start fights with the band (Leigh ibid). Johnny Rotten
was concerned that the Ramones would beat him up should he visit them backstage
(Fields 2016). I also mentioned that in August of 1976 the Ramones played a series
of shows in California. Punk rock, so labeled, spread like wild fire in the
wake of the Ramones showing up in these cultural hotspots.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>By January, 1977, the Ramones had two
full-length records on the market<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">:
Ramones</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i>. This was one
month before the Damned’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Damned Damned
Damned</i>, three months before the Clash’s first record, and a full nine
months before the seminal <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind the
Bullocks</i> by the Sex Pistols. The same is true in L.A. where the Zeros<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn9" name="_ednref9" style="mso-endnote-id: edn9;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[ix]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>, Weirdos, and Germs all
released 7” singles in 1977, after the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i>, and the Germs would not release their debut full-length
LP until 1979. The sonic, visual, and verbal genre codes presented by these
bands are markedly punk, the influence of the Ramones on them is unmistakable.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After the initial crystallization of the
genre in 1977, punk rock developed standardized codes. Following the Ramones, punk
had to be fast and simple; three-chord songs clocking in at less than three
minutes became the norm. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Group Sex</i>, L.A.
band the Circle Jerks first LP, released in 1980, contains fourteen songs in
15:25; the tempo of the songs is supersonic, leaving Ramones’ songs in the
beats per minute dust. Similarly, the Descendents debut, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Milo Goes to College</i> (1982), presents 15 songs in 23 minutes. This
latter album filters the hardcore rage of bands like Black Flag through the pop
sensibilities of the Ramones; it even has songs with Ramonesesque titles like
“I Wanna be a Bear,” “I’m Not a Loser,” and “I’m Not a Punk.” The new hardcore
punk quickly crystallized into a genre of its own: Black Flag, Bad Religion, the
Dead Kennedys, Minor Threat, Jody Fosters Army, the Big Boys, and Bad Brains
all borrowed from the sonic blitz and social commentary introduced by the
Ramones; the last of these bands taking their moniker from the Ramones song of
the same name.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Visually, as punk moved into hardcore the Ramones
leather and jeans look became ubiquitous. California punks wore their t-shirts
ripped, like their jeans, and added biker boots to the look, ditching the
sneakers (although keeping the Converse Chuck Taylors). In England, leather was
festooned with pins and paint, the clothes more overtly fashinista than in
America. Artists and fans’ hair got shorter as they embraced punk and rejected
the hippie music from which it was born; and like the clothing, punk hair
became fantastic: colored Mohawks and skinheads were the rule rather than the exception.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Ramones stayed true to their style
through the crystallization of punk and hardcore punk rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Even through the departures of founding
members Tommy and Dee Dee, and the loss and welcoming back of second drummer
and long time member Marky<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_edn10" name="_ednref10" style="mso-endnote-id: edn10;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[x]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>, the band kept their
leather jacket, t-shirt, and sneakers look going; they continued to write
lyrics full of pop culture commentary, though they did get darker with time,
especially those written by Dee Dee; and they delivered their songs in
increasingly rapid tempos, especially live. Even their set-list remained
basically the same, focusing on songs from their first four albums, their most
popular (Green 2014).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Ramones dedication to a set of verbal,
visual, and sonic codes can be interpreted a number of ways. Their fans argue
they never sold out, an accusation particularly loathsome in the punk community.
Despite the fickle changes in tastes of rock music audiences through their two
decades of existence, the Ramones pounded away at their pop power chords,
singing about absurdities of everyday life, looking and acting like a gang of
joyfully dysfunctional New York street thugs without concern for market
sensibilities. One might also argue, however, that under Johnny’s tight grip
the band lacked the ability to grow artistically. As the eighties wore on, the
Ramones became irrelevant; rock and roll passed them by, their moment of
influence faded.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After their first four records the Ramones
catalogue is peppered with good songs, some of them excellent: “Rock ‘n’ Roll
High School,” “Do You Remember Rock ‘N’ Roll Radio?,” “Chinese Rock,” “Pet
Cemetery,” My Brain is Hanging Upside Down (Bonzo Goes to Bitburg),” “I Don’t
Want to Grow Up,” “We Want the Airwaves.” Their influence on the direction of
rock music, however, faded as their career progressed. A number of punk and
hard rock bands (e.g. the Circle Jerks, Metallica) that admired the Ramones
played much faster than them, making the Ramones sound glacial by comparison.
The street tough attitude of the band was also adopted as standard wear by a
number of other bands: the Germs, Social Distortion, the Exploited. Leather
biker jackets, ripped jeans, and t-shirts were de rigueur punk and hardcore
fashion throughout the eighties. The Ramones became passé, though always
treated by audiences and support personnel with awe and respect.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Whatever one’s critical stance, there is
no doubt the emergence of the Ramones in 1974, and the releases of their first
four records in 1976-1978, represents a pivotal moment in the history of rock
music. They borrowed sonic, visual, and verbal codes from their rock music
forbears and molded them into a uniquely post-sixties, New York City
presentation. They played fast and loud like a highly wound freight train,
dressed like misfit toys, sang of topics below the moral compass of polite
society, and it worked. In their wake was a new genre, punk rock, and then
another, hardcore punk rock, and another, speed metal. They may have been
dysfunctional and they may have died young, but their place in rock music
history goes unchallenged.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">References<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Becker,
Howard S. 1982. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Art Worlds</i>. Berkeley:
University of California Press.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Byrnside,Ronald.
1975. The Formation of a Musical Style: Early Rock,” in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Contemporary Music and Music Cultures</i> edited by Charles Hamm, Bruno
Nettl, and Ronald Byrnside, pp. 159-92. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice Hall.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Fields,
Danny. 2016. “The Ramones’ Manager: They Were the Outcasts, Outsiders. The
Smartest People I ever Knew”. The Guardian. Retrieved May 17,2019. (https://www.the
guardian.com/music/2016/apr/25/ramones-danny-fields-manager-photographs).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Green,
Andy. 2014. “Readers’ Poll: the 10 Best Ramones Albums”. Rolling Stone.
Retrieved may 17, 2019. (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/readers-poll-the-10-best-ramones-albums-164624/).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Leigh,
Mickey with Legs McNeil. 2009. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">I Slept
with Joey Ramone</i>. New York: Simon and Schuster.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ramone, Dee
Dee with Veronica Kofman. 1997. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Lobotomy:
Surviving the Ramones</i>. Boston: De Capo Press.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ramone,
Johnny. 2012. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Commando: The Autobiography
of Johnny Ramone</i>, edited by John Cafiero with Steve Miller and Henry
Rollins. New York: Abrams.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ramones.
2016. “Timeline”. Retrieved May 17, 2019. (</span><span style="font-family: "courier new";">https://www.ramones.com/timeline/)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Smith-Lahrman,
Matthew. 2010. “Interview with Steve Albini, 1993”. Perspective. Retrieved May
17, 2019. (smithlahrman.blogspot.com/search/label/steve%20albini).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sundaybop.
“Ramones – CBGB, NYC (September 15<sup>th</sup>, 1974)”. Filmed [September
1974]. YouTube video, 06:52. Posted [December 2013]. Retrieved May 17, 2019. (</span><span style="font-family: "courier new";">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwsVWZ-c8Eo</span>.)</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: #1a1a1a; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Weber, Max. 1904/1949. “Objectivity in Social
Science and Social Policy” in <i>The Methodology of the Social Sciences</i>,
E. A. Shils and H. A. Finch (ed. and trans.), New York: Free Press.</span><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Weinstein,
Deena. 1991. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Heavy Metal: A Cultural
Sociology</i>. New York: Lexington Books.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Discography<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Circle
Jerks. 1980. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Group Sex</i>. Frontier
Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Clash.
1977. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Clash</i>. CBS Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Damned.
1977. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Damned Damned Damned</i>. Stiff
Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Descendents.
1982. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Milo Goes to College</i>. New Alliance
Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Germs.
1977. “Forming”/”Sex Boy”. What? Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Germs.
1979. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">(GI)</i>. Slash Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ramones.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>1976. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Ramones</i>.
Sire Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ramones.
1977. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Leave Home</i>. Sire Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ramones.
1977. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rocket to Russia</i>. Sire Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ramones.
1978. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Road to Ruin</i>. Sire Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sex
Pistols. 1977. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind the Bullock,
Here’s the Sex Pistols</i>. Virgin Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Velvet
Underground. 1967. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Velvet Underground and
Nico</i>. Verve Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Weirdos.
1977. “Destroy All Music” b/w “A Life of Crime” and “Why Do You Exist?”. Bomp!
Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Zeros.
1977. “Wimp” b/w “Don’t Push Me Around”. Bomp! Records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="mso-element: endnote-list;">
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<!--[endif]-->
<br />
<div id="edn1" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref1" name="_edn1" style="mso-endnote-id: edn1;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[i]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Genre
stages should be understood as what sociologist Max Weber termed an “Ideal
type” (<span style="background: white; color: #1a1a1a;">Weber 1904/1949, 90), a
fictionalized model by which to measure empirical reality. As such, actual
genres will move through the stages in unique ways.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="edn2" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref2" name="_edn2" style="mso-endnote-id: edn2;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[ii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
To avoid confusion, I will refer to the members of the Ramones by their stage
names even in instances prior to their adoptions.</div>
</div>
<div id="edn3" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref3" name="_edn3" style="mso-endnote-id: edn3;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[iii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Joey’s brother Mitchell Lee Hyman adopted the stage name Mickey Leigh as an
uncredited backing vocalist on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Ramones</i>.</div>
</div>
<div id="edn4" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref4" name="_edn4" style="mso-endnote-id: edn4;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[iv]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Country Bluegrass Blues and Other Music for Uplifting Gormandizers</div>
</div>
<div id="edn5" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref5" name="_edn5" style="mso-endnote-id: edn5;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[v]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Three of 1976’s best selling records.</div>
</div>
<div id="edn6" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref6" name="_edn6" style="mso-endnote-id: edn6;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[vi]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
All four band members are credited with writing the songs on their early
records because the final product was seen as a group effort.</div>
</div>
<div id="edn7" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref7" name="_edn7" style="mso-endnote-id: edn7;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[vii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
The title “Pinhead” and the “Gabba Gabba Hey” refrain are lifted from the Tod Browning
directed film <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Freaks</i> (1932) which
included three microcephalic characters, “pinheads.” During live performances
the Ramones’ “pinhead” would deliver a “Gabba Gabba Hey” sign to Joey for the
songs’ final refrain.</div>
</div>
<div id="edn8" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref8" name="_edn8" style="mso-endnote-id: edn8;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[viii]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
“Do You Want to Dance” was written and originally recorded by Bobby Freeman in
1958; it was recorded as “Do You Wanna Dance” by the Beach Boys in 1964.
“Surfin’ Bird” was a novelty hit for The Trashmen in 1963; it was written by
John Harris, Turner Wilson Jr., Alfred Frazier, and Carl White (the Trashmen).
“Needles and Pins”, written by Sony Bono and Jack Nietshe, was first recorded
by Jackie Deshannon in 1963 and then the Searchers in 1964.</div>
</div>
<div id="edn9" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref9" name="_edn9" style="mso-endnote-id: edn9;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[ix]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
The Zeros, from Chula Vista, California, were known as the Mexican Ramones.</div>
</div>
<div id="edn10" style="mso-element: endnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Ramones/The%20Ramones.docx#_ednref10" name="_edn10" style="mso-endnote-id: edn10;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "calibri" , "sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">[x]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not to mention C. J. and Richie.</div>
</div>
</div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-66057590957819243752020-01-15T16:13:00.002-07:002020-01-15T16:13:47.997-07:00The Social Construction of Rock n' Roll: An Interview on The Social Breakdown PodcastHere's a link to an interview I did with the fabulous folks at The Social Breakdown: <a href="https://www.thesocialbreakdown.com/2020/01/15/soc-307-sociology-of-rock-music/">https://www.thesocialbreakdown.com/2020/01/15/soc-307-sociology-of-rock-music/</a>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-20602236364074927592016-08-30T20:24:00.000-06:002016-08-30T20:24:05.973-06:00An Interactionist Perspective of Reality Structures and Religiosity<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: left;">
<span style="font-family: Courier New;"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px; line-height: 15.3333px;">This is a revised version of a paper I presented at the Association for the Sociology of Religion conference, August 20, 2016, Seattle, Washington.</span></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">An
Interactionist Perspective of Reality Structures and Religiosity<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> As Berger and Luckman (1966) tell us, the
social construction of reality is one of the most basic activities engaged in
by human beings. Indeed, it could be
argued that the attribution of meaning on to the world “out there” is a
distinguishing characteristic of the species.
The activities of the religious are based on beliefs that fall outside
the realm of empirical investigation. Behaviors
within religious settings, then, are perfect for observing the social
construction of meaning. Interactions
within religiously defined situations are dramatic examples of a basic social
process (Glaser & Strauss 1967). In
this paper I use data collected from observations of religious performances in
Washington County, Utah, to discuss ways the religiously inclined create
reality structures that verify their perceptions of themselves as morally
righteous people.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Methods</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> When one thinks of religion in Utah
generally, and Southwest Utah specifically, one thinks of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints. And since
roughly two-thirds of the state’s population is LDS, this is a legitimate
assumption. However, St. George and its
surrounding communities host a plethora of weekly worship services in addition
to the Sacrament Meetings of the LDS Church.
For the past 14 months I’ve engaged in fieldwork among religious
congregations in Washington County, Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> I attended a different religious service
each week for one year beginning in June, 2015.
In that year I attended services with two different Episcopal churches,
a Bible church, two different Assemblies of God churches, three Baptist
churches, a Methodist church, a Calvary Chapel, two different LDS wards (in the
same building), a Presbyterian church, a Foursquare fellowship, two Catholic
churches, a meeting of Quakers, a Reformed Jewish congregation, five different
Lutheran Churches representing three different synods, a Center of Spiritual
Living, a Muslim congregation, a Church of Christ Scientist, a Unity
congregation, three non-denominational Evangelical churches, a Church of
Christ, a Unitarian gathering, a Buddhist gathering, and a Jehovah’s Witness Kingdom
Hall service.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The sizes of the congregations I visited
varied from 700 or more at the St. George Catholic Church on Easter Sunday, to
200 or so attendees at the Washington City 7<sup>th</sup> Ward of the LDS
Church (keep in mind that there are 236 Wards in Washington County) (“Temples
of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”), to 3 at the meeting of
the Southern Utah Friends. Most services
lasted about an hour, with some as short as 40 minutes and others as long as 2
hours. Some services followed a strict
liturgy with no improvisational activities at all while others seemed to be
more extemporaneous.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Some of the services I attended were in
buildings owned and operated by the religious organization performing the
service. For instance the Grace Episcopal
Church, the St. George Catholic Church, and the Christian Science Society all
owned their buildings. A few
congregations met in rented buildings:
the New Beginnings Christian Fellowship and the South Mountain Community
Church fall in this category.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Blog%20Version%20of%20ASR%20Paper/An%20Interactionist%20Perspective%20of%20Reality%20Structures%20and%20Religiosity.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a> Some were granted space in the extra rooms of
already existing churches: Beit Chaverim
Jewish Congregation meets in the back classrooms of the Good Shepherd
Presbyterian Church while the Unity Center of Positive Living meets in the
small chapel of Grace Episcopal Church.
The Muslims of St. George meet in a classroom at Dixie State University,
the Southern Utah Friends “rent” a room from a private arts center. A number of groups have “storefront”
residences: the Center for Spiritual
Living and Desert Ridge Baptist Church are two.
Finally, the Dixie Drive District SGI Buddhists met in the house of one
of their members.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> I also interviewed nine religious
“leaders” as part of my research; “leader” being whoever was directing the
service of a particular congregation that I attended. My interviews included preachers/pastors from
Grace Episcopal Church, South Mountain Community Church, Grace Baptist Church,
New Beginnings Christian Fellowship, the Southland Bible church, the Center for
Spiritual Living, Solomon’s Porch Four Square Church, a reader from the Church
of Christ Science, and the Rabbi at Beit Chaverim. The Christian Science reader later asked that
I not use material from our interview in my writing and presentations, so I
deleted that one from my data base.
Eight interviews is not a lot, I understand, but it does add a layer to
my understanding of what it means to be religious in Washington County, Utah.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The next stage of my research started in
June, 2016, when I began a research residency with Redemption Lutheran Church. A member of the Wisconsin Evangelical
Lutheran Synod, Redemption Lutheran is a relatively new member of the
Washington County religious community.
The church was planted by Pastor Michael in 2015, it rents a second
floor space in an upscale business office building, and has a regular
attendance of 15-20 people. I have
attended Sunday services, Thursday Bible lessons, and Morning Refreshments at
Redemption for the duration of this past summer.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> In my year of “church hopping” I gained a
solid understanding of what religious services in Washington County look
like. I’ve found that, yes, there are a
lot of LDS wards with many members who meet regularly, but underneath this
veneer of a dominant religion is an active and diverse religious
community. Importantly, I’ve gained an
understanding of some interactional activities that are common in typical
religious services and the meanings these activities hold for congregants.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Reality Structures<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> In this paper I focus on a few theoretical
concepts found in the data that cluster around symbolic interactionist ideas
about self, identity, and the maintenance of social structure. I’ll first discuss some general theoretical
ideas and then support them with empirical data from my fieldwork.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We are born into worlds that are populated by people
who have ideas about reality. They are
more or less convinced that their ideas about reality are correct. We, being newly born, have no ideas about
reality at first. The people who inhabit
our new world have vested interests in convincing us that their versions of reality
are the correct ones.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Our parents, for instance, have a vested
interest in convincing us that their form of parenting – their rules, their
arrangement of furniture in the house, their dinner time – is correct. They’ve invested a lot of time and energy
into accepting this way of doing things as the right way and to suggest otherwise
is to challenge their moral compasses.
Adherence to the norms and values of a situation is adherence to a moral
order. Our parents do things a certain
way because they believe it to be the right way.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The same notion holds true for other
segments of “society.” We believe that
our ways of educating our children are the right ways and, therefore, other
ways of educating children are wrong because morally righteous people educate
their kids our way. We believe our
economic system is the best not just practically, but morally, and that other
systems are morally wrong. We believe
that our ways of choosing political leaders are right and other ways are wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Our understandings of our selves are
wrapped up in our understandings about reality.
As Peter Berger suggests in <i>The</i>
<i>Sacred Canopy</i> (1967) we project our
internal/psychological beliefs onto the world out there. Included in these projected beliefs is a
place for ourselves. In attaching moral
beliefs upon one’s vision of reality one attaches the same beliefs upon one’s
own existence. Thus we have vested
interests in actively maintaining our visions of reality because we have vested
interests in maintaining our visions of our selves.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The vested interests we have in
maintaining our perceptions of reality work at many interactional levels. This is what sociologists mean when they say
that culture is shared. We align our
perspectives with others in order to maintain a reality and a moral order. Social order is always maintained at an
individual level. I maintain my view of
reality in my individual acts. Others
help me maintain this reality because they want to maintain their place within
what they perceive to be a moral order.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Importantly for our perceptions of this moral
order reality structure are our perceptions of the interconnectedness of
everything. We like to think that not
only do we as individuals have a place within the order, we think that everyone
else does too. We believe there is a
“purpose” to it all and that “proper” behaviors are self-evident in accordance
with this purpose and “improper” behaviors are self-evidently not in accordance
with it. To this end we construct ideas
like “nature” and “science” and “religion” to legitimate our perceived moral
order reality structures.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The discussion thus far is too simplistic
for real life. My job as a sociologist
is to document the myriad ways by which we interactionally construct and
maintain this order. It’s also my job to
document the order that people say they perceive, because this perception is
what they’re trying to maintain. In this
way, as Howard Becker (2014) suggests, I want to describe complexity, not theorize
simplicity.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Religiosity<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Some the questions I seek to answer in this research
include: In what ways does religion
serve as a moral order reality structure?
More accurately, in what ways do people use their perceptions of
religion to legitimate their own moral order reality structures? More precisely, how do people see their
religions as moral order reality structures and how do they perceive these
orders as legitimating their worlds and their places within them? To answer these questions I’ve observed
people interacting with each other in situations they define as religious: church, prayer services, meditations, and
bible studies.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;">From an interactionist perspective of religion, to call oneself
a member of a particular religion is to declare oneself a believer in a set of
cultural norms and values. One is
expressing one’s interest in adhering to a set of shared rules of conduct
guided by a shared set of ideals. Such
allegiance is a presentation of oneself as holding a certain worldview and,
concurrently, acting as if this world view is true.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;">To declare oneself a member of one religion or another is self-
and other-labeling that comes with assumptions.
To call oneself a “Mormon,” for example, calls out in oneself and in
others a set of belief and action assumptions:
no coffee drinking, no cussing, getting married in a temple, no ‘R’
rated movies, garment wearing, going on a mission, and believing that the Book
of Mormon is really another testament of Jesus Christ. To say that a self-labeled member of the LDS
Church calls out the same behaviors in herself as she calls out in others is to
say that she has internalized the cultural assumptions of the label. A woman who labels herself a Mormon expects
herself to act like a Mormon and believes her actions to be morally correct. She also believes the interactional structure
of her church to be morally correct.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Georg Simmel (1997) uses the term “religiosity” to refer to a
state of being in which individuals internalize certain cultural ideas about
religion. The first step toward
internalizing religion – being religious - is that this religiousness must be
individually and culturally recognized.
That is, no one knows that it is possible for one to be religious unless
there is a cultural label, a word, pointing it out. People must talk to each other about the idea
that “being religious” exists. Once this
label is created, then people can start pointing out (to self and to others)
that some people are religious and others aren’t. Some people are seen as being of one type of
religion and others of another. Some
people are considered members of one congregation, others of another. Some people are understood to profess to be
religious with their lips but not with their hearts.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">A couple stories from my conversations with Pastor Mike of
Redemption Lutheran can help with understanding this act of interaction identity. In one Sunday service Pastor Mike made a
special point to emphasize how God has revealed His entire plan in the
Bible. The whole story is there. Nothing else needs to be told. He then said that “here in Utah” some people
don’t get that; the “here in Utah” being a thinly veiled reference to the LDS
Church. That LDS theology suggests the
story of God’s plan is not fully revealed is not Christian from Pastor Mike’s
Lutheran perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Another story comes from a Morning Refreshments conversation I
had with Pastor Mike. I asked him if he
knows much about Rastafarianism, he said “not much.” So I told him what I know, including the bit
about how Rastafarians believe that God was manifest in both Jesus and Haile Selassie,
the late emperor of Ethiopia. Pastor
Mike stopped me and said, “Then they aren’t Christian.” Christianity, according to Pastor Mike, is
tightly defined by the accounts of the Bible.
God may be Father, Son, and Spirit, but not the emperor of Ethiopia.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Significantly, Pastor Mike insisted upon reading this manuscript
that it isn’t his place to judge either LDS or Rastafarian people. He simply feels his understanding of theology
is in line with truth, while others are misguided. But it is up to God to judge, not mere
mortals.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">The point of these two stories is to highlight the importance of
distinction in defining one’s religious reality structure. One way of knowing one’s culture and,
therefore, knowing who one is, is to point out to self and others who one
isn’t. In refuting the accuracy of LDS
and Rastafarian theology, Pastor Mike is affirming the perceived accuracy of
Christian Lutheran theology.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Once a religious label is constructed and
accepted among some group of people then some in that group will feel that
they, themselves, are religious. Some
within the group will internalize the idea that they are religious; religious
becomes a perceived quality of their being.
But how does anyone know that any particular person is more or less
religious? By the way they act. Religious people must act as if they are or
no one believes them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> This sets-up Simmel’s distinction between <i>need </i>and <i>fulfillment</i>. Those who
internalize the idea that they are religious develop a <i>need</i> to be religious because even they don’t know they are unless
they act as if they are. One only learns
one is religious once one acts religious according to cultural labels of being
religious. So, those who are labeled
(especially by self, but probably by others) as religious develop a need to act
religious so that they and others can accurately apply the religious label to
them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Need
fulfillment happens in numerous ways.
One obvious way is through participation in recognized religious
services. Going to church every Sunday
(or some semblance of) shows to self and others that one is of some sort of
religious nature. Knowing the hymns and
prayers at church by heart, for instance, also shows to others and self that
one is of some type of religious nature.
Having a well-worn Bible and being able to actively engage the pastor in
knowledgeable conversation at Bible Study serves the same purpose. Born again stories provide need fulfillment
as well. When someone recounts the day,
time, and exact circumstances when the spirit moved her to become Christian,
she is fulfilling a need to present herself as a type of person who believes in
a kind of reality structure. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Cultures provide ways for the religiously
labeled to fulfill the action requirements of being so. That is, there are, in Robert Merton’s (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">1968)<span style="color: #212121;"> terms, appropriate and
available means for attaining one’s needs within a culture. Communities provide meeting spaces for religious
services, access to religious literature, pews, prayer rugs, advertising space
in local publications, and political opportunities. In these ways those that seek a religiously
active life and, thus, a religious culture and sense of self, have the
resources to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> To summarize, through social interaction
people construct reality structures that justify their perceived moral
orders. They negotiate present
definitions of situations with self and others based on the beliefs they bring
to their interactions. Others believe
the situation to be something, self believes the situation to be something,
too. The negotiations are based on the
individuals in the situation trying to convince each other of their beliefs
about what is going on.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Peoples’ beliefs about definitions of
situations <i>are </i>their realities. Their beliefs about definitions of situations
are claims to self importance. Therefore
peoples’ beliefs about definitions of situations, about reality, are beliefs
about morality. Perceived realities
validate individuals’ claims to legitimate existences, therefore individuals’
have vested interests in convincing others to accept a given reality. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reality confirming events create cohesion or, rather, the desire
for membership in cohesive groups is a driving force behind reality confirming
events. Religious services are reality
confirming. The rituals contained within
them, and the participation of the congregants in doing the rituals, create a
sense of cohesion, or attractedness to the group. This attraction comes from the belief that
others acting like one acts within the service believe the same things that one
does and thus confirm one’s sense of reality, purpose and dignity as a moral
being.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Religious activities are a form of reality
construction. Religiously active people
create versions of reality among themselves that maintain perceptions of what
is true. Such reality maintenance
necessarily supports individual’s ideas concerning what is true about their
selves. Namely, their versions of
religious reality support their own perceived existences as morally righteous
individuals.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">References<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Becker,
Howard S. 2014. <i>What about
Mozart? What about Murder?: Reasoning from Cases</i>. Chicago: University of Chicago.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><br /></span></div>
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<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Berger, Peter and Thomas Luckmann. 1966. <i>The Social construction of Reality</i>. Garden City, New York: Anchor Books.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Berger,
Peter. 1967. <i>The Sacred
Canopy: Elements of a Sociology of Religion</i>.
New York: Anchor Books.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Glaser, Barney G. and Anselm L. Strauss. 1967. <i>The Discovery of Grounded Theory: Strategies for Qualitative Research</i>. New Brunswick: Aldine Transaction.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;">
<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">LDSChurchTemples.Com. “Statistics: United States: Utah: Washington
County.” Retrieved August 30, 2016. (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><a href="http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/statistics/units/united-states/utah/washington/">http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/statistics/units/united-states/utah/washington/</a></span><span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">)</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;">
<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Merton, Robert. 1968. <i>Social Theory and Social Structure</i>. New York: Free Press.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: #212121; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 0in; mso-add-space: auto;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Simmel,
Georg. 1997. <i>Essays on
Religion</i>. New Haven: Yale University.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<br />
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<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lahrman/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Sociology%20of%20Religion/Blog%20Version%20of%20ASR%20Paper/An%20Interactionist%20Perspective%20of%20Reality%20Structures%20and%20Religiosity.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Both have since moved. New Beginnings to
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Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-64123965126512836802015-04-25T15:50:00.000-06:002015-04-25T15:50:40.739-06:00The Meat Puppets as a Case of the Movement from Punk to Alternative Rock<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<br />
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 20.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Meat
Puppets as a Case of the Movement from Punk to Alternative Rock</span></b></div>
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character: line-break; page-break-before: always;" />
</span></b>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This paper is about the movement of punk
rock in the 1970s, through indie rock in the 1980s, to alternative rock in the
early-1990s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I trace the career of the
Meat Puppets, a band that existed for most of this period, as a dramatic
empirical case (Glaser and Strauss 1967) of how some artists are part and
parcel of the assimilation of new antithetic art genres into mainstream
industries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I show how, following Howard
S. Becker’s (1982) identification of art worlds as places where art happens, artists
in new and “alternative” music genres make use of outside support personnel to
get their art done and, as part of the assimilation process, incorporate
mainstream personnel that are part of the conventional art worlds to which the
artists aspire into their art projects.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Punk
Rock Art World</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Meat Puppets are part of a cohort of bands
(some still playing, others not) whose careers began in the post-punk early to
mid-1980s and lasted through the advent of alternative rock in the early to
mid-1990s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The story of this cohort is
an important one in both the structural and cultural history of rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Structurally the story is of the merging of
the mainstream major recording label industry in the 1990s with the independent
recording industry started by punk rockers in the 1970s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Culturally the story is of the formation and
crystallization of a musical genre known variously as indie, alternative or
grunge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Meat Puppets are a dramatic
example of how both of these stories played out.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">As Howard S. Becker states about artists generally,
rock bands work “in the center of a network of cooperating people, all of whose
work is essential to the final outcome” (Becker 1982, p. 25).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Becker distinguishes between an art world’s “artists”
who engage in the “core activities” of actually making art, and “support
personnel” who engage in peripheral activities such as staging and promoting
artists and their goods that are no less essential to the final outcome of the
art product. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the case of rock music
in the period in question, rock bands were the artists who wrote and performed
songs, the support personnel consisted of record labels who arranged for other
support personnel (manufacturing plants, clubs, recording studios, distributors)
to make and distribute bands’ records and live performances.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A fundamental change occurred in the
relationship between rock bands and support personnel between the advent of
punk rock in the mid-1970s and the crystallization of alternative rock as a
mainstream genre twenty years later.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
key change was a movement from an artist-based Do It Yourself (DIY)
music-making structure to one in which major recording labels controlled all
peripheral aspects of a popularly recognizable music genre.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Early punk (New York, 1971-77; London,
1975-77; Los Angeles, 1976-79) can be seen as a series of “folk” music scenes
“created directly and spontaneously out of communal experience” (Frith 1981, p.
48).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Artistically, it was the expression
of communities of youth rejecting what they perceived as the overblown musical
styles of their contemporary mainstream music stars.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Early punk bands like the New York Dolls, the
Ramones, and Television who frequented Max’s Kansas City and CGBGs in New York
City throughout the seventies, for instance, are an example of an early folk
scene.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A number of soon to be punk
rockers, as well, claim to have been in the audience of a July 6, 1976 Sex
Pistols performance at the Lesser Free Trade Hall in Manchester.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mark E Smith (the Fall), Morrissey (the
Smiths), and Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks) were part of a community of artists who
say that, because of this concert, they started their own bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Los Angeles, the Masque nightclub and
Canterbury Apartments, both in Hollywood, were centers of a punk scene where
acts like the Germs, the Weirdos, and X would play for and interact with audiences
of like-minded people.<span style="color: red;"></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">But punk as a reaction to the mainstream music
industry, as with most countercultural movements, existed only for a moment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Frith (ibid) explains,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">There are
creative breakthroughs, when the music does express the needs of real
communities, but it never takes the industry long to control and corrupt the
results (p. 51).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">My
thesis is that the transformation of 1970s punk into 1990s alternative was the
transformation of a folk cultural music scene into a mass cultural mainstream
marketing genre.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As major label music
industry support personnel figured-out how to package and market punk rock bands,
and as the bands and their support personnel became more willing to work with
major label support personnel, punk moved from a reactionary aesthetic and
structural movement into a conventional one.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As mentioned, punk rock was initially an
aesthetic reaction to “the slick, overproduced music of the seventies records
by bands like Genesis, Yes and Abba” (Felder 1993, p. 3), it was not a
structural rejection of the major label recording industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The earliest punk bands like the Ramones and
the Sex Pistols released their records on major labels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Punk rockers initial rejections of mainstream
music were presented through an aesthetic system that emphasized a sameness
between artists and audiences and rejected the rock star images of popular rock
musicians as phony and formulaic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
short songs and absurdist lyrics on the Ramones early albums, for instance,
were a reaction to the lengthy and lyrically “serious” ones of popular
progressive bands of the day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Sex
Pistols entire nihilistic schtick, from their clothes to their songs to their
public antics, was created to present an anti-establishment image, albeit while
working within the system.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The point for
the punks was to eliminate the idea that rock musicians were “stars” and bands their
vessels; anyone could start a band and make legitimate art.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Dick Hebdige (1979) points out, punk rock
musicians expressed this sameness through the use of symbolic objects that were
“homologous with the focal concerns, activities, group structure and collective
self-image of the subculture” (p. 114).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Aesthetically,
from their clothes to their lyrics to their album art, punk bands provided an
alternative to the seemingly inaccessible worlds of 1970s rock stars.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Punk artists’ aesthetic reactions against
the mainstream music industry quickly became an explicit structural reaction
against the centralized, major-label market that had come to dominate the rock
music world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Punk rockers rejected major
recording and distribution companies, constructing and embracing independent
recording and distribution companies of their own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In England, for instance, the Buzzcocks’
self-recorded, self-financed, and self-released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Spiral Scratch</i> (1977) signaled the onset of the DIY movement that
quickly made its way across punk art worlds on both sides of the Atlantic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Independent recording labels, run by punk
friendly support personnel, popped-up across England and the U.S., making a DIY
ethic as important for identifying punk artists and support personnel as the
aesthetics in the music.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">From Punk
to Alternative</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In the eighties and nineties, major recording labels
were the cornerstone of the recorded music market.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By 1990 six major recording labels (EMI,
Warner Bros., Sony, MCA, BMG, and Polygram) accounted for about 75 percent of
record sales worldwide (Baskerville 1990).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In 1989-90, 81 percent of singles and 82 percent of albums on the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Billboard</i> “Top 100” belonged to just
four record companies, all of which were major labels (Lopes 1992).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Major labels dominated the record market in three
ways:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(1) manufacture and distribution
of recordings, (2) publishing rights, and (3) promotion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First, compact discs, records, and cassettes
had to be printed, duplicated, and shipped to record stores and radio
stations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major labels either owned or
controlled nearly all record pressing and duplication plants (Frith ibid).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major labels also handled their own
distribution.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thus, “Most record stores
get nearly all their wares from six suppliers” (Dannen 1991, p. 112).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">A second way major labels controlled the recorded
music market was through publishing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Songwriters copyright their songs with publishing companies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Recording companies must obtain license from
publishing companies in order to record songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Major labels owned their own publishing companies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thus they obtained license to record songs
from, and pay royalties to, themselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Who owns the copyright?” is an important factor in deciding if a band’s
record will be released by a major label (Hirsch 1973).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">A final way major labels dominated the recorded
music market in the eighties and nineties was through promotion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Getting a song played on radio or MTV was the
most effective way of insuring records’ and band’s market success.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major labels could “bring to bear 200 or more
individuals” to promote a single release (Frith ibid).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>National, regional, and local staffs closely
monitored the play lists of radio and television stations so that songs from
the label’s catalogue received the greatest possible exposure.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In its reaction to and refusal of
mainstream music and the mainstream music industry, labels like SST in Los
Angeles and bands like Black Flag and the Meat Puppets, direct descendents of
first generation punk rock artists, laid the foundation for the establishment
of an independent rock music industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>By the mid-1980s the “indie” rock world consisted of financially sound
independent recording labels (SST, Touch and Go, SubPop) that used independent
distribution companies to get their records to retail stores that were likely
to be independently owned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Clubs and
halls existed across the nation that featured live performances by indie and
punk bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were fanzines and
college radio stations whose existence was predicated upon indie rock
music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally, in response to the
overwhelming popularity of compact discs over vinyl records in the mainstream
music market, independent labels found a profitable niche marketing both
12-inch and 7-inch vinyl records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Musicians and bands could survive, some thrived, in the independent
industry.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In one sense the independent recording industry of
the 1980s and early 1990s paralleled that of the major labels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Rachel Felder (ibid) argues that the
independent “system has become as efficient as, say, the bigger one of DGC and
UNI distribution and national chain stores” (p. 9).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Though on a smaller scale than the majors
could provide, punk/indie artists were now, in conjunction with punk/indie
support personnel, recording, manufacturing, and distributing their own
records.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In another sense, independent and major recording
companies cooperated with each other, with independent labels being a minor
league to the majors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indie label
support personnel took the risks of releasing records by unknown bands. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The majors sat back, watched, and snatched up
the bands that showed themselves to be money makers.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Baskerville, however, argues that the relationship
between independent and major recording labels was not one of parallel
industries or of cooperation, but one where the independents were,
paradoxically enough, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">dependent</i> upon
the majors for their very existence.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Independent
labels are almost wholly dependent upon the major record companies for
manufacture of their products.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
majors control nearly all the major pressing plants and tape and CD duplicating
facilities.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The independent label often
has difficulty getting prompt production when the pressing plant’s parent
company has the facilities tied up with its own orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This bottleneck has seriously hurt small
labels when they develop a regional hit, then can’t get records produced in
volume to fill the record stores with adequate stocks (Baskerville ibid, 248).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">However
their relationship with the major labels is characterized, by the early nineties
many independent punk and indie labels lacked the resources to compete with
major labels in the areas of manufacture, distribution, publishing or
promotion.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In reference to the relationship rock music artists
had with support personnel, punk and indie rockers used the term “selling out” as
a pejorative symbol hurled at bands that signed major label contracts
(Smith-Lahrman 1996).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The concept
achieved an apex of use with punk and indie rock artists and their adherents’
emphases on a DIY work ethic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major
label support personnel may have been necessary for the production of high
level recorded product, but indie rockers did not see them as engaged in the
core artistic activities in which rock bands engaged.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indeed, punk and indie musicians felt that major
recording label support personnel were antagonistic to their efforts at
creating genuine art products.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Structurally speaking, however, signing with a major
label was a career move for punk and indie artists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major labels offered bands the support personnel
necessary for taking their careers to a wider audience and for making more
money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Therefore, bands looking to
advance in their careers felt the need to leave the minor leagues of the
independent labels for the major leagues of the majors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One time indie artists that signed with major
labels dropped “selling out” from their vocabularies.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The release of Nirvana’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i> in 1991 ushered in “alternative rock” as a profitable
mainstream major label music genre.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
emergence of alternative rock as a marketing category also signaled the
consolidation of the independent label industry into the major label rock music
industry as well as the integration of punk and indie rock conventions into the
mainstream system of rock aesthetic conventions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It also signaled the end of “selling out” as
a career organizing concept.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Leading up to and in the flood of albums released by
alternative artists after <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>,
a number of bands made the leap to the majors and thus painted a picture of how
such artists could create an aesthetic product consistent with punk/indie
ideals while working with major label support personnel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A list of punk/indie bands that released
their first major label records during the punk-to-alternative historical
moment includes the following:</span></div>
<table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;">
<tbody>
<tr style="mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-irow: 0;">
<td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Replacements</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1985</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Tim</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sire</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 1;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Hüsker
Dü</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1986</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Candy Apple Grey</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Warner
Bros</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 2;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Soul
Asylum</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1988</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Hang Time</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">A&M</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 3;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sonic
Youth</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1988</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Daydream Nation</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Enigma/EMI</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 4;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Camper Van Beethoven</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1988</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Our Beloved Revolutionary Sweethearts</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Virgin</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 5;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Jane’s
Addiction</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1988</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Nothing’s Shocking</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Warner
Bros</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 6;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Pixies</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1989</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Doolittle</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">4AD/Elektra</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 7;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Dinosaur Jr.</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1991</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Green Mind</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Sire</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 8;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">fIREHOSE</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1991</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Flyin’ the Flannel</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Columbia</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 9;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: right 108.9pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Meat Puppets<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1991</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Forbidden Places</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">London</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 10;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Nirvana</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1991</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Nevermind</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">DGC</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 11;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Flaming Lips</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1992</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Hit to Death in the Future Head</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Warner
Bros</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow: 12; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes;">
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Butthole
Surfers</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">1993</span></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Independent Worm Saloon</span></i></div>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 119.7pt;" valign="top" width="160">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Capital</span></div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 67.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Structurally, these bands had similar careers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They began in the post-punk 1980s and released
their first records on independent labels before making major label
releases.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Musically they can be grouped
together as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are all
guitar/drum/bass driven, hard rock, psychedelic post-punk indie/alternative
bands.<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span></b>All of them were making records pre-<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind’s </i>wake the alternative
floodgates opened with major label releases by Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Temple
of the Dog, Alice in Chains, and the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Singles</i>
movie soundtrack making <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Billboard’s</i>
top fifty albums of 1992.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 1993 even
more alternative rock bands appeared in the top fifty albums:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nirvana (with two different albums), Pearl
Jam, Alice in Chains, Primus, Porno for Pyros, Stone Temple Pilots, Soul
Asylum, Dinosaur Jr., Paul Westerberg, and Smashing Pumpkins were all best
sellers.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Following <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind’s</i>
success, and the resulting major label success of the indie bands listed above
(the list could be longer), the post-Nirvana indie world saw change in the
meaning of bands’ relationships with the music industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A core defining feature of being indie or
punk, dealing with independent labels, was no longer an indicator of a band’s
credentials.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>, authentic indie bands could make major label records
without being accused of “selling out.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Furthermore,
major label promoters figured-out how to package such bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were now “alternative” and
marketable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Meat Puppets fit this
mold perfectly.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Meat
Puppets as a Case Study of the Movement from Punk to Alternative</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">One can understand the first fifteen or so years of
Meat Puppets’ career within the story of the movement from punk to alternative
rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As shown, some of Meat Puppets’
independent label cohorts signed major label contracts before Meat Puppets, and
some after.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some bands that can be
considered colleagues of Meat Puppets in this punk/indie/alternative movement
released their debut records on major labels rather than starting out on
independents:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Violent Femmes released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Violent Femmes</i> on Slash (distributed by
Warner Bros) in 1982, REM released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Murmur</i>
on IRS in 1983 and the Red Hot Chili Peppers released their eponymous debut on
EMI in 1984.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The signing of these bands
in the early eighties shows that the major labels were catching on to the
punk-to-alternative trend at least ten years before <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It also shows
that not all indie bands were concerned with releasing independent records as a
sign of their authenticity to a set of cultural values.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Meat Puppets have existed in one
incarnation or another for more than thirty years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The original band began in Phoenix in 1980
when brothers Curt and Cris Kirkwood met up with Derrick Bostrom over a love of
pot, progressive FM radio, and punk rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Their punk/indie recording career began when they were asked by the band
Monitor to record a song (“Hair”) on the latter’s self-made album (1980), and
then recorded an EP of their own (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">In a
Car</i> 1981) on Monitor’s World Imitation Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Soon after that the band started making
records for the punk/indie SST Records, releaser of albums by bands the
Minutemen and Saccharine Trust (they would eventually release albums by Sonic
Youth, Hüsker Dü, Dinosaur Jr., and others).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They spent the eighties making records with SST, starting with 1982’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets </i>and ending with 1989’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They then released three records – <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i> (1991), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> (1994), and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> (1995) – on London Records, an
imprint of the major Polygram Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Releasing their first major label record in 1991 puts the Meat Puppets
within the cohort of bands mentioned earlier who made the leap from the indies
to the majors.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Meat Puppets first two releases, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">In a Car</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets</i>, show numerous signs of a rejection of mainstream
music aesthetics ala punk rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Musically they are crude, with rough production and rudimentary song
structures. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are loud and fast with out
of tune singing and screaming vocals. Curt, in a 2014 interview, says of these
records that the singing and playing wasn’t purposefully bad, they just weren’t
very good musicians and didn’t know their way around a studio at this point,
and punk rock gave them the cover they needed to make a record even though they
weren’t yet proficient (Warbie 2014). The point he makes is that punk rock artists
didn’t need to be stars.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They rejected
mainstream aesthetics and structure by their actions, releasing unpolished
records on their own or with labels that weren’t linked to traditional
manufacturing and distribution systems.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">SST Records was just such an independent label.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Created by Greg Ginn and fellow Panic/Black
Flag member Chuck Dukowski as an extension of Ginn’s already established Solid
State Transmitters, SST was a model of DIY structural efficiency and
aesthetics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With Joe Carducci and Steve
"Mugger" Corbin coming on as co-owners, SST operated out of a number
of different locations in the Los Angeles area, with those running it sometimes
using pay phones to do business and sleeping under desks at their offices;
their office in Redondo Beach, for instance, was one room with a shower in the
bathroom for $150 per month (Carducci 2007).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As Carducci puts it the label was staffed by band members and friends,
they used independently owned mom and pop printers, typesetters, photo labs,
and recording studios like Media Art and Total Access, K-Disc Mastering, James
G. Lee Processing and Virco in Alhambra to press their records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Many of these peripheral art world members
were found through word of mouth or the phone book.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Meat Puppets recorded their first three records
at studios regularly used by SST bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The eponymously titled first album was recorded at Unicorn Studio (where
Black Flag had recently recorded <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Damaged</i>
[1981]) and the next two at Total Access Studio on Santa Monica Boulevard in
West Hollywood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They also used Spot,
SST’s in-house engineer, to help make the recordings. For their next three
records – <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way </i>(1986), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> (1987), and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> (1987) – they stayed in their hometown of Phoenix but still
chose independent studios (Chaton and Pantheon) and a local, though major label
experienced, producer (Steve Escallier).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Their final SST record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>,
was originally self-recorded and shopped around to major labels, but when no
deal was found, they re-recorded the album at For the Record Studio in Orange,
California, engineered by “E.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
studio and engineer were, according to Curt (personal interview 2012), selected
by SST.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The early career of the Meat Puppets follows the
trajectory presented in the first part of this paper:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>they made records on their own and within the
independent music structure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During this
period they were also musically idiosyncratic, drastically changing sounds from
record to record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They began with a
Germs-style derivation of hardcore on the first two releases, moved on to
psychedelic country for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>
(1984), progressive psychedelic on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on
the Sun </i>(1985), loping alt-country on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out
My Way</i> (1986), synthpop rock for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage
</i>(1987), ZZ Top blues boogie on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos
</i>(1987), and psychedelic hair metal on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters
</i>(1989).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Such stylistic innovation
and change from album to album put the band beyond the commercial rock pale, a
key ingredient of their indie credentials.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The band members felt that their career was stagnating
in the mid- to late-eighties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
critical success of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>
and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> helped the band
sell some records and draw some decent size indie world crowds, but they didn’t
see increased sales or audience attendance with their subsequent SST releases.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They also became frustrated with SST’s
inability and/or unwillingness to stock Meat Puppets’ records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As early as 1984 the band members noticed
that tour mates and SST label-owners Black Flag had merchandise in tour-stop
record stores and Meat Puppets didn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As the eighties wore on it wasn’t unusual for the band to pull into
towns as headlining artists and not find their records in stock at the local
record stores and not have any promotional items or activities set-up while
their major label artist openers would have these things taken care of (Derrick
Bostrom, personal interview, 1993).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If
they wanted to move forward in their career they’d have to make a jump to the
major labels, a place where support personnel are more reliable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As early as 1986 they had negotiations with
Gary Gersh at Geffen Records, a negotiation that fell through when the band
wouldn’t or couldn’t sell themselves as another Gene Loves Gezebel (a band with
twin brothers in it).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In the early 1990’s the Meat Puppets not only left
the more “authentic” world of indie rock for the major labels, they also
produced a series of records that incorporated a more accessible sound.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden
Places</i>, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>, and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> contained (in the case of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i>) shorter, lyrically
more accessible songs while the other two find the band playing a heavier, more
grunge/alternative friendly sort of heavy rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Curt claims the more accessible sounds on the latter two records were
the result of two things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First, “we
figured-out how AC/DC did it” (personal interview, 2012) in the studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Second, it was the result of listening to,
touring and hanging-out with heavier popular bands of the time like Stone
Temple Pilots and Nirvana. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All three
records feel a bit more conventionally focused than any of their output before
or since.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Nirvana, who were arguably the world’s most popular
rock band of the early nineties, released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>
two months after Meat Puppets’ <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places
</i>in 1991<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"> </i>and, like all other major
label rock bands in its’ wake, Meat Puppets were left to figure out how to sell
records to a post-<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>
audience.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their next two years were
spent doing just that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In May of 1993
the band recorded what would become <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too
High to Die</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In September 1993
Nirvana released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">In Utero</i>, and
invited Meat Puppets (as well as other founders of alternative rock such as the
Butthole Surfers) to open a few weeks in late October and early November of
their Fall ’93 tour.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Later that same
November, Curt and Cris guest appeared on Nirvana’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">MTV Unplugged </i>to play three Meat Puppets songs:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Plateau,” “Oh, Me,” and “Lake of Fire.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The show aired in December.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One month later, January of 1994, Meat
Puppets’ released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In April of 1994 Curt Cobain committed
suicide, predictably increasing sales of all Nirvana releases as well as the
name recognition of the Meat Puppets due to their participation on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">MTV Unplugged</i>; they became forever more
linked to Nirvana and alternative music.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The success of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>, the Meat Puppets’ best selling album with over
500,000 units sold, was due in no small part to the art world personnel that
supported them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As early as the Summer
of 1993 (six months before the album was released) there were signs that London
Records was behind it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Specifically, as
Derrick says, label executives were confident that “Backwater,” the first
single from the album, would get airplay.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">We were being told that “Backwater” was going to do well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had decided on the single, probably, by
late summer, and they had gotten Butch Vig to do the remix and they had sent
out the various prerelease copies. (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">All-in-all, as 1993 moved on, it was becoming
obvious to Curt, Cris and Derrick that all of the different support personnel
segments of the popular music art world were on-board with promoting the
record:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>record label executives,
independent promoters, radio station programmers and others that populate the
amorphous business world of popular music.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The record company. . .these different pieces that go into
making a record suddenly, kind of, get more attention.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And people dug it, that’s the main
thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We realized that the record
company was focusing on the album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
then you realize that that’s what it takes if you’re signed, to have it
work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You begin to realize that that’s
why it’s the record “business.” (Cris, personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">With industry support personnel on-board there was
hope for the commercial breakthrough that had eluded the band for the previous
twelve years.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A
particular segment of support personnel, the promotions department at London
Records, was fully behind <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their strategy for marketing the record, it
seems, was to bring Meat Puppets into the mainstream of Alternative Music; make
them less idiosyncratic and more standard rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In sociology this is referred to as “organizational isomorphism,” the
tendency of similar segments within an industry to mimic one another’s
successes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The evidence for such
isomorphism in the case of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to
Die</i> is manifold.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First, as was
standard for mainstream rock albums of the time, the label put a photo of Curt
(albeit in a dress) on the front cover, with photos of Cris and Derrick (also
in drag) on other parts of the CD, rather than have original artwork from the
band as was the case for every previous record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Another isomorphic marketing move was to include a “hidden” song
attached to the last track on the CD; this is something that DGC Records had
done with success on Nirvana’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the Meat Puppet’s case the label attached
a reworked version of “Lake of Fire” (originally released on 1984’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>) to track number 13,
“Comin’ Down.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick and Curt both
suggest that this was a label decision, the band having had little input as to
the sequencing of the songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A third
marketing decision which, like adding a hidden track, smacked of Nirvana
mimicry, was to add a second guitarist, Troy Meiss, into the band’s live
configuration; Nirvana had already added Pat Smear to their live configuration.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It isn’t quite clear how this decision came
about, however.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick says it was
probably a label suggestion while Curt says it was his own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Either way, it was an industry isomorphic
move.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With the
looming success of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>,<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"> </i>1994 proved to be one of the Meat
Puppets’ busiest years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The record was
released on January 25 and, as is customary, the band embarked on a year-long
series of concert tours to promote it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>First, however, some housecleaning was in order in the form of
reorganizing their support personnel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>One action they took was to find new management in the form of big-time
managers John Silva and Tami Blevins of Gold Mountain Entertainment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Silva had managed Nirvana, the Beastie Boys,
and Sonic Youth, among others.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>According
to Derrick, the band’s old manager seemed to be asking them to do more of the
work than they felt was justified, work that they had been doing for more than
a decade as an indie band but that now, as a successful major label band, they
wanted to have handled by professional support personnel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The band also hired new tour management in
early 1994 in the form of Ben Marts who had managed such alternative acts as
the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Living Colour, and Jane’s Addiction.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">In February the band made a
professional-budget video for “Backwater,” directed by established videographer
Rocky Schenck who had already made a name for himself making videos for
alternative artists Alice in Chains, the Afghan Wigs, and Paul Westerberg.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The video received ample airplay on MTV,
helping propel the song to </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">#47 on Billboard Hot 100 and #2 on the
Billboard Album Rock Charts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It also
received a nomination for Best Editing in a Video at the 1994 MTV Video Music
Awards.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">After making the “Backwater” video, Meat Puppets embarked on the
first of numerous tours as a supporting act for commercially more successful
alternative acts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This one was with
Blind Melon, a band touring on the multi-platinum success of their eponymous
1992 debut full-length record and its chart-topping single and video “No
Rain.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The tour made stops at theaters
and ballrooms such as the Kuhl Gymnasium at SUNY Geneseo (capacity 3,000), The
Sting nightclub in New Britain, Connecticut (1,200), and the Roseland Ballroom
in New York City (2-3,000), venues slightly larger than Meat Puppets might
command on their own.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next up
was a trip to Europe consisting of two legs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The first was a March through early-April opening slot for Soul Asylum,
another band with its beginnings in the 1980s finding success in the
alternative era with the multi-platinum record <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Grave Dancers Union</i> and its smash single, “Runaway Train.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This tour took them to the United Kingdom,
France, Spain, Italy, and Germany.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
second leg of the European tour was to be an opening slot on Nirvana’s Eastern
European tour, starting in Prague.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>However, Nirvana cancelled the rest of their tour after Kurt Cobain’s
overdose in Rome on March 3.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The remainder
of April, 1994, saw the band touring the East Coast of the United States as a
headlining act.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They also appeared on
MTV’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">120 Minutes</i> on April 17 as
Guest Hosts where they played “Backwater” and “Lake of Fire” live and then on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Late Night with Conan O’Brien</i> two days
later where they again played their increasingly popular “Backwater.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of this activity is evidence of the
formerly punk/indie Meat Puppets being accepted into the mainstream world as an
alternative rock band.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Meat
Puppets began May of 1994 by again touring as an opening act, this time for
Cracker, the band formed by former Camper Van Beethoven member David
Lowery.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like most of the other bands
Meat Puppets were connected with in this era, Cracker was enjoying the
commercial success their 1993 alternative album, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Kerosene Hat</i>, and single, “Low” (#64 on the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Billboard</i> Hot 100/#3 on the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Billboard</i>
Modern Rock tracks), were receiving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At
the end of May, Meat Puppets played a few more headlining gigs, this time on
the West Coast.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sometime
in late May/early June (after their tour supporting Cracker and before the next
one supporting Stone Temple Pilots) the band convened at a movie ranch near Los
Angeles to shoot a video for their next <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too
High to Die</i> single, “We Don’t Exist.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The video had “a good budget” (Curt Kirkwood, personal email, 2012) and
was directed by Josh Taft who had already directed commercially successful
videos for Stone Temple Pilots (“Plush”) and Pearl Jam (“Alive”).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was nominated in the “Best Metal/Hard Rock
Video” category at the 1995 MTV Video Awards.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Next up
on the band’s 1994 itinerary was a three-month opening slot on Stone Temple
Pilots’ Summer tour promoting their soon-to-be mega-selling record <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Purple</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Meat Puppets actually played second on a three-band bill, with the
glam-rocking first-wave Los Angeles punk band Redd Kross opening the first part
of the tour and D.C. indie/alternative band Jawbox opening the latter
part.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The bands cris-crossed the country
on this tour playing venues of widely varying sizes from the San Diego State
Open Air Theater (4,900 capacity) to the Gorge Amphitheater in Washington State
(23,000 capacity).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Stone
Temple Pilots tour lasted from mid-June through mid-September.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On September 12 the band appeared on MTV’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The</i> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">John
Stewart Show</i> playing again, as they had on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">120 Minutes</i> earlier in the year, “Backwater” and “Lake of Fire”
(Derrick, personal email, 2012).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Meat
Puppets spent much of October 1994 on a headlining tour in which they hit
theaters in the Midwest and East Coast of the U.S, across Canada, and down the
West Coast of the U.S. (Derrick, personal email, 2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Somewhere along the way, remembers Cris, the
band received some exciting news:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I do remember, I think it was Ben Martz, our tour manager at the
time, he got a phone call as we were driving along and he told us, “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> has gone Gold!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Certified Gold!” (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">MTV Unplugged in New York</i>, the CD
version of the November 1993 show Meat Puppets played with Nirvana was released
on November 1, 1994.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The record debuted
at #1 on the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Billboard </i>charts and
went on to sell multiple millions of copies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This was, yet again, a nice boost for the band brought about by their
serendipitous relationship with Nirvana.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Every <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Unplugged in New York </i>contained
three Curt Kirkwood-penned Meat Puppets’ songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In early 1995 this relationship would pay-off.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">One day in
early 1995 we got the call saying “We need to go to New York, we’re gonna have
our Gold Record party, and we’re gonna sit down with the accountant and go over
just what you guys got.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That trip was
like, we had a party, got our Gold Records, and the accountants told us that we
were gonna see millions of dollars.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So
that was nice. (Derrick, personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Meat Puppets recorded <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> in the Spring of 1995; Derrick
remembers the Oklahoma City bombings (April 19) happening while it was being
recorded.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unlike the period leading up
to the recording of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>
where the label was very hands-on, rejecting demos and sending A&R people to
Memphis to check on the band’s progress, with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> London was hands-off and fully supportive of whatever the
band wanted to do. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In one sense the band
felt label support in the form of more money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The budget for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>, for
instance, was twice what it was for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too
High to Die</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also, the band was
allowed to pick a recording studio of their choice, choosing Phase Four Studio
in Phoenix, which allowed them to live at home while recording, a move that made
it possible for Cris, especially, to live with and take care of his ailing
mother.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They received no flack from
London in their choice to once again employ Butthole Surfer Paul Leary as
co-producer, a “no brainer” decision according to Derrick.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And, “They gave us a lot of money to do the
‘Scum’ video.” (Curt, personal interview, 2012)<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So, as Curt says, things seemed to be going pretty well at this point,
at least in terms of the band’s relationship with London Records and their
hopes for a successful follow-up to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too
High to Die</i>.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We were getting a lot of
attention from the record company and from the press and the budget was twice
what <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> was, for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They really threw-down for that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was definitely a lot of internal hype
there at that record company.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, yea,
it seemed like stuff was going pretty good. (Curt Kirkwood, personal interview,
2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Derrick also recognized that London
was taking a hands-off approach to the new record, but rather than a good
thing, he saw it as a sign of not caring, the label was done with Meat Puppets.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It
seemed like they were just giving us enough rope to hang ourselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They gave us a big budget and let us do
whatever we wanted whereas previously they were really engaged in what we were
doing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This time they let us go on our
own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then they just released it without
any argument, without any oversight. (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Continuing, he
argues that involvement is a sign that the label cares and are still interested
in the band’s project.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the case of
Meat Puppets, argues Derrick, the label’s close involvement on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> showed that they were
behind the record, their lack of involvement on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> showed that they weren’t.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Say
what you want about our conflict with the label over <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>, but that’s the way a label shows that they’re
interested in a project.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When you got a
label looking over your shoulder that means that they’re involved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And they weren’t involved in that project.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They let us make it in Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They let us choose our own shit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They let us choose our own cover. (personal
interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
label was moving on, says Derrick, leaving Meat Puppets behind, “They </span><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">had
other things that they were working on.” (personal interview, 2012)<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Derrick’s view it was a matter of a
saturated market that brought London to the conclusion that Meat Puppets were
irrelevant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Meat Puppets were just one
of many bands to get major label push in the post-Nirvana alternative rock
signing frenzy that characterized the early ‘90s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Alternative had become the new
mainstream.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The proven money-makers were
kept on board, the rest were set adrift.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">They
wanted to bury the underground artists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They had other artists that they could make money with.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had people like Stone Temple
Pilots.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had found their hits.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They already had their successes and they
were no longer in an experimental or adventurous mode.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were going with the tried and true.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were gonna do another record with us;
they were obligated to, contractually.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But they didn’t have any stake in having it succeed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had already had their successes.
(personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">No Joke!</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> was released on October 3, 1995.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Curt says, London Records was prepared to
throw their heavy guns into promoting the record (Derrick isn’t so sure about
this).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They pushed the first single,
“Scum,” getting it in rotation at a number of mainstream rock radio stations
early on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then they pulled the
plug.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> reached #183 on the Billboard 200 charts (compared to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>, which reached #62).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Three days after the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> Meat Puppets played Wavefest in
South Carolina for a second time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
also appeared on Conan O’Brien in October, playing “Scum” with new second
guitarist Kyle Ellison, and on MTV <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">120
Minutes</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In September they shot a
video for “Scum” with long-time friend and filmmaker Dave Markey.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">They gave
us a lot of money to do the “Scum” video.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We got to do that with Dave Markey.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He and I wrote it and they pretty much left us alone with that” (Curt,
personal interview, 2012).</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">No Joke!</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> was the last record
released by the original Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Their final
tour was an opening slot for Primus in late 1995; their final gig was New
Year’s Eve in Chicago.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Conclusion</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Based on
their association with Nirvana and other early-1990s “grunge” bands, Meat
Puppets will forever be remembered as an “alternative rock” band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The fact that the original lineup of the band
began a twelve-year hiatus at the same moment that alternative/grunge rock
began its recession from the top of the charts makes their association with it
all the more poignant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 2007 the
Kirkwood brothers reformed the band, this time without Derrick Bostrom.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Importantly, they have maintained a DIY work
ethic and rely on relatively few outside support personnel to accomplish the
peripheral acts necessary for the production of their art.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have released four records, all on
independent labels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unless opening for
larger acts such as Stone Temple Pilots or Soundgarden, they play small, off
the beaten path bars and clubs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
drive their own van, employ a single roadie who has been with the band since
the early 1990s, and use friends across the country to man their merchandise
table at gigs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are by all accounts a
structurally punk/indie rock band.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In this
paper I have described the career of the original Meat Puppets as a case study
that exemplifies a larger movement in rock history that ties together punk rock
of the late-1970s, indie rock of the 1980s and alternative rock of the
early-1990s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have shown how the Meat
Puppets career mirrored the careers of a number of other bands of the same time
period:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>the Replacements, Hüsker Dü, and
Jane’s Addiction are a few.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of these
bands, the Meat Puppets included, released their first records on independent
labels before moving to major labels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>All of them were considered “underground” and “alternative” before the
latter was crystallized as a recognizable genre.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The smashing success of Nirvana’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i> in 1992 completed the
chrystallization of the genre, consequently bringing about the beginning of its
decay.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There is
some theoretical importance to my argument in that it shows, through a dramatic
empirical case, what is a basic social process (Glaser and Strauss ibid).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Alternative” genres appear all the time in
popular music worlds:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>the first rock and
roll, rockabilly, rock, psychedelic rock, funk, disco, metal, straight edge,
emo. . .the list goes on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My hypothesis,
based on the story told in this paper, is that all of these genres began outside
the major label music industry, made use of independent support personnel, and
through a process not dissimilar to the one presented here were assimilated
into the mainstream.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Similarly, within
any of these genres one can find artists like the Meat Puppets whose careers
mirrored the movement of the genre as a whole.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Indeed, one can probably find similar movements in art worlds outside of
popular music:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>in painting and “primitive
art,” for instance (Fine 2004), or dance, or literature or. . .the list could
go on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The question that remains is
empirical:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Where, when, and how do these
movements occur?</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoEndnoteText" style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Notes</span></div>
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoEndnoteText" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New";">1.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Significantly,
these three songs are all from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i>, a nod by Cobain to the Meat Puppets early punk/indie years.</span></div>
<div class="MsoEndnoteText" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
2.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Other
videos nominated were “Everybody Hurts, R.E.M. (winner), “Amazing,” Aerosmith,
“Human Behaviour,” Bjork, “Sweet Lullaby,” Deep Forest, “Kiss the Frog,” Peter
Gabriel, and “Disarm,” Smashing Pumpkins.</span></div>
<div class="MsoEndnoteText" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
3.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Other
videos nominated were “More Human than Human, White Zombie (winner), “Basket
Case,” Green Day, and “Interstate Love Song,” Stone Temple Pilots.</span></div>
<div class="MsoEndnoteText" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
4.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">To be
clear, the end of the original Meat Puppets was not brought on solely by the
end of alternative rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Personal issues
in the band, especially Cris’s escalating drug dependencies and the impending death
of the Kirkwood matriarch played no small part in their dissolution as well.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">References</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Baskerville, David.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Music Business Handbook and Career Guide</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Los Angeles:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Sherwood Publishing Company, 1990. Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Becker, Howard S.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Art Worlds</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Berkley, University of California, 1982.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Carducci, Joseph.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Enter Naomi:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>SST, L.A. and all that . . ..<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></i>Centennial,
WY:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Redoubt Press, 2007.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Dannen, Frederic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Hitmen:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Power Brokers and Fast Money Inside the Music Business</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New York:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Vintage Books, 1991.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Felder, Rachel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Manic Pop Thrill</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hopewell, New Jersy: Ecco Press, 1993.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Fine, Gary Alan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Everyday Genius:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Self-Taught Art and the Politics of
Authenticity</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Chicago:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>University of Chicago, 2004.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Frith, Simon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Sound Effects:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Youth, Leisure, and the Politics of rock ‘n’
Roll</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New York:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pantheon, 1981.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Glaser, Barney G., and Anselm L. Strauss.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Discovery of Grounded Theory:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Strategies
for Qualitative Research</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New
York:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Aldine de Gruyter, 1967.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Hebdige, Dick.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Subculture:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The Meaning of Style</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New
York:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Routledge, 1979.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Hirsch, Paul.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Structure of the Popular Music
Industry:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Filtering Process by which
Records are Preselected for Public Consumpt</i>ion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ann Arbor, MI:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Institute for Social Research, 1973.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Lopes, Paul D.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Innovation and Diversity in the Popular Music Industry,
1969-1990.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">American Sociological Review</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Vol. 57, No. 1 (February 1992).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Smith-Lahrman, Matthew Bock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Selling-out:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Constructing Authenticity and Success in
Chicago’s Indie Rock Scene</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>PhD
Dissertation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Evanston, IL:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Northwestern University, 1996.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Print.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Warbie, Carbie.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Meat Puppets Q & A @ Ding Dong
Lounge, Melbourne (27<sup>th</sup> May 2014)</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Vimeo.com.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>2014.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>December 1, 2014.</span></div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-47243996211962490372015-04-17T11:37:00.000-06:002015-04-17T11:44:14.469-06:00A Reading of Excerpts from "The Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from Meat Puppets II to No Joke!"<br />
Here is me doing my thing, reading excerpts from my book at the Dixie State University Social and Behavioral Sciences Brown Bag Seminar on April 16, 2015.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_3dhFesW0&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank"> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_3dhFesW0&feature=youtu.be</a><br />
<br />
Thanks to Dr. Hosok O for recording the talk.Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-80608472548613869082015-02-02T20:49:00.000-07:002015-02-17T13:24:50.657-07:00Interview with Derrick Bostrom, October 12, 2013 ("Route7Review")<!--[if !mso]>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">This interview originally appeared in Summer 2014 in the "Route7Review," Dixie State University English Department's literary journal: <a href="http://www.route7review.com/#!derrick-bostrom/c1hj0" target="_blank">http://www.route7review.com/#!derrick-bostrom/c1hj0 </a></span></b></div>
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<br /></div>
<div align="center" class="Body" style="text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Interview with
Derrick Bostrom</span></b></div>
<div align="center" class="Body" style="text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;">October 12,
2013</span></b></div>
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<br /></div>
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" 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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span>Derrick
Bostrom</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span>Photo
by Derrick Bostrom</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="tab-stops: 1.25in 157.5pt;">
<span style="mso-tab-count: 2;"> </span><a href="http://derrickbostrom.net/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">http://derrickbostrom.net/</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction</span></b></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>According
to the United States Census, in 1950 the population of Phoenix, Arizona, was
106,818.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By 1960 that number had jumped
311 percent, to 439,170.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Among those that
moved there were Iowan </span><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ed Bostrom and Minnesotan Sandra
Thomson</span><span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> </span><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">who, in 1960, gave birth to Derrick Bostom,
future drummer for the seminal country/punk/psychedelic rock and roll band the
Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By 2013, when the
following interview was conducted, Phoenix was the nation’s sixth largest city
with a population hovering just short of 1.5 million people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick conjectures that he is of a rare
species, a person who was born in and has stayed in Phoenix his entire life.</span></div>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-themecolor: text1;">In what follows I talk with Derrick about growing up in a
growing city, about being a liberal punk rocker in a high school full of
cowboys and disco queens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He talks about
Phoenix as a city that has never been much concerned with conservation of
resources, instead opting for offering attractive economic incentives and
welcoming all comers to this desert oasis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He tells me why his band, the Meat Puppets, first broke in Los Angeles
rather than the Valley of the Sun and why, nevertheless, they stayed in Phoenix
even though the rock music industry was located a six-hour drive to the west.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally, Derrick tells me what he’s been up
to in the eighteen years since he stopped playing in the band:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>his job as a top IT tech at a grocery store
chain, </span><a href="http://derrickbostrom.net/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">his blog</span></a><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-themecolor: text1;">, </span><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bostworld/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">his photography</span></a><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-themecolor: text1;">, and the </span><a href="http://www.luxuriamusic.com/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">internet
radio show</span></a><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-themecolor: text1;"> he produces every week.</span><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You’re a lifelong Phoenician, aren’t you
Derrick?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Derrick-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
was born here in 1960.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My folks went to
Arizona State University.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We lived down
in kind of a suburb off the downtown drag until about 1968 when we moved up to
Paradise Valley when my mom remarried.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Paradise Valley being a farther-out suburb of Phoenix, more of an
upper-middle class kind of place.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="margin-left: 58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I started my band in 1980 with the
Kirkwoods [brothers Curt and Cris].<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
had gotten into punk rock about 1977 and had tried to get just about everybody
I knew who played music to start a band with me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Kirkwoods were the ones that stuck.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were the most interested in actually
performing out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we created our own
little hippie North Phoenix upper-middle-class band.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 8.0pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Played with the other punk rockers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did well-enough to attract attention in
California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Got some records made.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Got opportunities to tour.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then stuck with it for fifteen
years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Put out ten records, or so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Got a Gold Record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Got most popular from our affiliation with
Nirvana who liked our early records and invited us on tour.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those tour dates we did were right before
their <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Unplugged</i> show, and we were
able to arrange to appear on that program, cuz he [Kurt Cobain] was looking for
material to play and he wanted to do some of our songs from our second record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Unplugged</i>
record, we appeared on it, it had some songs on it, did well enough to allow us
to cash-in on our fifteen years of struggle.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Doing that one record made us much more money than we ever made on our own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By that time we were so exhausted that that
little payday was all it took for us to basically retire, which we did until
that money ran out, at which point the Kirkwoods went back on the road and I,
in the meantime, got a job working for Whole Foods Market.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I am now the lead IT supervisor for the
Arizona area, which is seven stores.</span>
</div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you live in Phoenix proper now?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I still live in Phoenix.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Are you of a generation in Phoenix to be
born and stay your whole lives in Phoenix?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t think anybody is born and stays
their whole life in Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know very
few people who were born here and are still here fifty years later.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>My mother’s father got an opportunity
in the late-fifties to run a development financing company.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My father’s father was a Methodist minister
who got a parish here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they met while
they were here.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Were your parents born in Phoenix?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were born in the Midwest.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My
mother’s folks are from Minnesota, my father’s folks are from Iowa, I think.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s a pretty standard story for
people in Arizona.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I suspect that the generation before
ours, mine anyway, was a little more rootless because of the mid-century
depression and war, etcetera, etcetera.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Whereas the era I was born into was much more stable.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So your grandparents moved your parents
to Phoenix?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea, but actually both of my parents
were adult by that time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both of them
were college-age by the time they moved in.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the little research I did for this
interview, if you look at the numbers, the city of Phoenix, in the year you
were born had 439,000 people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By 2010 it
has 1.4 million people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then if you look
at the entire Phoenix metro area in 1960 only 663,000 people, and by now it’s
over 4 million.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How do you account for
that growth in your lifetime?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Personally, I account for that growth
from the fact of the Rustbelt phenomenon and loss of industry jobs in the
Midwest and also the rise of extremely business-friendly governments here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think a lot of that has to do with trying
to attract people to the desert by letting them do whatever they wanted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, like, you had Motorola moved out here,
created a lot of jobs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of
aerospace.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I know that in parts of the
city the pollution regulations were quite a bit laxer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So you can find plenty of evidence of
groundwater pollution and “cancer corridors” as it were. Plus making it easier
for developers to build.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Same thing as
Las Vegas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Another town hard hit by the
recession.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So in the post-war United States not
only was there air conditioning, there was also freeways and airports and
things like that, making people spread out more. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And also the irrigation phenomenon which came
around as a response to the dustbowl.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They began to irrigate more and spend more time focusing on dams and
water management.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Obviously water
management is a huge thing here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are
basically fed by the Colorado River through a series of uphill waterways that
are run by pumps called the Central Arizona Project, which keeps the city from
having to use its polluted groundwater.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">When Phoenix was a smaller city there was a lot
more vegetation, a lot more trees. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Trees
lined the major thoroughfares.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There
were a lot more grass lawns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now we have
a heat island here cuz of the size and also because there is a lot of land
banking in the city proper.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a
lot of failed developments that are now just vacant lots, retail-type office
real estate in the city that is basically vacant lots because they just don’t
want to spend the money to build them or sell them.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 8.0pt;"> </span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 8.0pt;"></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We also have, over the last five years, a
greater rise of dust storms that are coming in from Tucson.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Weather always comes up from Tucson during
the Monsoon season in the summer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Due to
extreme developments, failed developments, and also increased development that
now there is so much open ground that it pulls so much dirt off of the ground
when the wind comes from Tucson that Phoenix gets engulfed by dust a couple of
times a year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is a recent
phenomenon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The people who are from
out-of-town, they call them “</span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3glyRZLZAR0"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">haboobs</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">,” and that is a term that we never used to
use.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’ve always had dust storms but
nothing like this where you’ll see walls of dirt that engulf the city in the
summertime.</span>
</div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">They say that we’re not so much experiencing a
drought as that we’re no longer experiencing a wet season.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the late-nineties climate changed a little
bit so it wasn’t quite so moist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It used
to start cooling off around August or September and now that’s pushed back by
at least a month or so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’re seeing the
effects of a certain amount of climate change here.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What about something I think you’re
interested in, based upon your photography, the architecture of Phoenix?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is there anybody interested in preserving the
older architecture or is it just raze a building and build a new one?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s a city that during the post-war
period, mid- late-forties through the mid-sixties, had a strong modern
architecture movement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are a lot
of celebrated architects who come out of here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There’s a strong movement to preserve buildings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Obviously Frank Lloyd Wright settled here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a big fight just last year to save
a house that he designed for his son.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That was actually saved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He has
Taliesin West out here, which is a beautiful, beautiful place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s also getting old and needs to be
restored, needs to be preserved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you
go to the </span><a href="http://www.modernphoenix.net/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Modern Phoenix</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> website you’ll see a really
well-documented website about Phoenix modern architecture; the drive to save
it, some of their successes, some of their losses.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="margin-left: 58.5pt;">
<span style="mso-no-proof: yes;"></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt;"></span></div>
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 8.0pt; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 8.0pt;"></span>
<br />
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 8.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I read that “Phoenix is reinventing
itself into oblivion.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What does that
mean?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well there is that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You move to the outer edges of town where
there are all sorts of failed developments and future failures of tract houses
and malls and areas that are not sustainable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Ten years ago, during the crash, we lost a lot of development.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lots and lots of money was lost in the
construction industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Attempts to
revitalize it is usually still along the lines of what they did before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are young people trying to do things in
a scaled down, more sustainable way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Your usual suspects.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Your
artisans joined with your developers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Still the question is:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Can a city
out in the middle of the desert survive in the face of post-peak-oil,
post-water crisis, and financial crisis?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We shall see.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Most of the stuff that gets built out here is
ugly as hell.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But that’s my
opinion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m fifty-years old.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have an affinity for the stuff of my youth.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, let’s talk about your youth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did you go to public schools, Derrick?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I did go to public schools.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I went to Tavan public school on Osborn and
Forty-Sixth Street.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then when we moved
up to Paradise Valley I went to Kiva Elementary School.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I went to Chaparral High School.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Aside from a year at U of A [University of
Arizona] that was all the education I got.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is the seventies, right?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I graduated from high school in 1978.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was the public high school like?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I went to high school in 1974 through
1978.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Back in 1974 through ’78 there was
probably one computer in the whole school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was kind of a scaled-down mainframe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There would’ve been one computer programming class that you could do the
usual punch card routine with.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had an
AV class where we had a black and white two-inch videotape machine and all the
nerds used to like to play with videotape.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It wasn’t really computers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was
the editor of my high school newspaper my senior year and was a staff member in
my junior year.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was the name of the newspaper?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Chaparral Ashes</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I cut my teeth
writing journalism paste-up, etcetera, for my second half of high school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was probably the main thing that I did
besides read comic books and listen to rock music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I got into punk rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I really liked the journalism classes
that I had taken.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It led me to some of
the probing that I did later, some of the reading and the writing that I
did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But obviously I was more interested
in being a rock musician, so I did that.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was the popular music atmosphere at
your school?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What kind of stuff were the
kids listening to?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Top Forty.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Disco.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">We</i> were listening to Frank
Zappa, Todd Rundgren, Yes, King Crimson, Grateful Dead.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the average teenagers were listening to
whatever was on the Top Forty.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Disco was
massive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">We </i>hated it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I learned to
like it later, after it had ended.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People
used to dress-up with their Farah Fawcett hairdos and their disco clothes, and
we dressed-up in our jeans and t-shirts.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was radio like?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The stuff you’re telling me you listened to
you weren’t hearing on the radio.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Well, that’s not entirely true cuz Phoenix was one of the birthplaces of
progressive radio in the seventies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There was a station out here, which still exists but it doesn’t have the
same programming, called KDKB.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
started in the early-seventies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
started as an AM radio station and when they moved to FM it was KDKB.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was one of the most progressive radio
stations in the country. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was in the
format of the San Francisco progressive stations where DJs would do long
freeform sets that had a theme which you were supposed to guess.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had alternative news.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Those kind of stations were the ones that
were breaking the Fleetwood Macs, Bruce Springsteens, Patti Smiths, of the
period.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We actually had a rich radio
situation in Phoenix when I was growing up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>AM radio was just the usual.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You
looked at the playlist and that’s what you got.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You got Wings, you got the Sylvers, whatever.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Where were you getting most of your
music?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Record stores?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Record stores.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Friends and their older siblings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of my friends had older brothers,
although I was the oldest in my family.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Most of the stuff I was getting was from the older brothers of my
friends.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then KDKB.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They would play the latest from the Grateful
Dead and Zappa and all that kind of stuff.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We also used to go to the Unitarian Church when
I was growing up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So my main social
group was an organization in the Unitarian Church called the LRY, the Liberal
Religious Youth, that was disbanded in about 1980 for being entirely too
radical and too independent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was
really big on the East Coast, not as big out here, though it was certainly big
to us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But compared to the organization
they were doing on the East Coast, we were nothing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was pure counterculture, pure hippie.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Much more so than the church would’ve allowed
had they known.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When they did find-out
they disbanded it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In fact we used to sneak into the church and
jam, and that was one of the places that I met the Kirkwoods for the first time
as they started to gravitate towards our little clique of Unitarian
hippies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact we mentioned that in
one of our interviews in the local press, that we used to break-in to the
church, and our minister sent a letter retracting it to the magazine saying, “It
does not reflect the views of the church.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The LRY was a national network of
countercultural teenagers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have some
newspapers of theirs from back in the times, in ’75 and whatnot, the stuff that
they talked about then is the same stuff that you’re hearing about now in the
mainstream press.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It gives you a sense
of how this stuff has moved to the mainstream a little bit, but it’s still
contentious:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>alternate sexuality, race,
women’s issues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were big on that then,
the country really wants it now, or at least a large portion of it, but there’s
still a great reaction against it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
beautiful thing about the seventies was we could talk about this stuff amongst
ourselves and the disco fans didn’t know from it, and we weren’t in their faces
and we could ignore them and they could ignore us, and now we’re all in each
other’s laps.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Back in the seventies we
were a <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">counter </i>culture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nowadays a lot of the same stuff has become
tedious in the constant back-and-forth about it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When Obama became president it was like,
“Great!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This should’ve happened in
1968.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And now the forces of reaction
against it are a world-wide embarrassment.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So then punk rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you remember a moment when you realized
that “this is punk rock.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Sure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I first heard about punk rock in the front pages of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Creem</i> magazine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had gotten
into <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Creem</i> probably a year before
punk rock happened and had noticed that the really good stuff in there were by
artists I’d never heard of. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People like
Lou Reed and Iggy Pop.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Creem</i> gave grudging acceptance to Zappa
and Rundgren, the bands that we liked.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But they really liked these harder bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t care for that kind of music, didn’t
even care for the Rolling Stones when I was a young hippie.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought they were too hard, but realized
that guys like Lou Reed were actually saying stuff that was intelligent, that I
could relate to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then when I started
reading interviews with Johnny Rotten I was like, “This guy knows what he’s
talking about!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I agree with this guy!”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">KDKB began talking about some of the local punk
rock bands and I started hearing some of that stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started realizing that punk rock was a
movement that I could relate to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
started going to the shows that I could get in to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was one show I could not get in to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I tried to, but it was at a bar and I was
underage.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">New Times</i> wrote an article the following day about how “if you
didn’t go to the show you suck.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I
wrote them a letter going, “Uhm, if this is supposed to be so great, they
should play where young people can see it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was actually contacted by the writer and his roommate, who was the
singer in the band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got to know those
guys and began to go to their shows and they turned me on to punk rock music.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><a href="http://www.intheredrecords.com/pages/consumers.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">The Consumers</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s what really got me into it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You could go and see Todd Rundgren or Frank Zappa, but that was just so
alien and so isolated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But actually
having the local punk rock heroes send you a letter going, “F*#! you!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You should come and see our show!” was a
revelation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So seeing the stuff up-close
and personal and meeting another group of older guys that I connected with was
a big inspiration to me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After that I
wanted to get into a band.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Most of my friends thought that punk rock was appalling.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They not only thought that the music sucked
but they thought that it was a betrayal of our ideals and that it was
reactionary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The funny thing about it,
of course, is that there were plenty of people who likened the hippies to the
Nazi Youth movements of the thirties and the twenties, and the hippies were
comparing the punk rockers to the Hitler Youth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>From now on any time a youth movement comes along they get compared to
the original kids who used to get together to talk about how they hated their
parents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So no matter what happens, no
matter who comes along, you’re always compared to the Nazis first.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So it was with the hippies and so it was with
the Black Panthers and so it was with the punks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But obviously I was not a Nazi.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When Meat Puppets started in 1980 was
there anything you could call a “punk rock scene” in Phoenix?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There were some private parties and
private shows being done.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No bars had
opened up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nowadays you will find people
talking about the “first punk rock bands” in Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are bands that I just did not care
for.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These were, like, not even really
power-pop bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were just bar
bands that wore colorful clothes and had short hair.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They probably considered themselves punk, but
I considered it to be frat-rock and I did not care for it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One of the things I didn’t like about them
was that they were buds with the bars and they used to hang-out with the bar
people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was not into the bar
scene.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t want anything to do with
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted it to be completely
alternative.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wanted it to be
completely our own thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It took longer
for our types of people to get out there and connect because we were not
looking to join the mainstream.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Consumers left in early 1978 to move to
L.A. to become a part of the Hollywood scene.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was really into the L.A. punk rock bands like the Germs and X and
stuff like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It wasn’t until 1980
that these bands begin to show-up at a bar called Star System in Tempe, where I
got to meet some of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not the
Germs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They never came to Phoenix, but a
lot of the L.A. bands did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember
talking to the Plugz, and the Alley Cats, and X, and bands like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But before that bar opened-up we were doing
private parties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Meat Puppets hadn’t
existed yet, but I began to meet this older group of guys. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Got encouragement from them.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Meat Puppets had actually gone down to
Tucson to play cuz there was a scene down there which I had actually been a
part of when I had gone to college for a year in ’78-’79.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had a band with another U of A student
called the </span><a href="http://knetzcomics.com/abc.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Atomic Bomb Club</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had also rubbed shoulders with some of the
local musicians down there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d
hang-out with people, listen to music, share money and goods.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Tucson had a bar that had bands play, so we
went down there and did our first show.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And slowly but surely, as we got to know these bands we started to get
on the opening bills.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We actually were
getting our first gigs in town opening for bands we met in L.A.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We could get shows in Los Angeles before we
could get shows in Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then entrepreneurs
came around, started opening clubs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Things got a little bit easier.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">us</i> opened clubs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But that was more-or-less over by ’84 or
so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we started playing at the same
bars that these original frat-rock punk bands were playing in the
late-seventies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally we were of
enough status to play in these exalted locations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we played in clubs and we toured.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By then we had records out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So the main Phoenix scene was probably eighty
to eighty-four.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was the impetus for going to
L.A.?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When was the first time you went
to L.A.?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How did that come about?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The Consumers, when they had moved to
L.A., I had made friends with a couple of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I sent them tapes once the Meat Puppets were starting to record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just practices, not albums.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That stuff started circulating around our
friends from the Consumers’s circles and the ones that liked us invited us to
L.A. to do shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first show we
played in L.A. was with </span><a href="http://45grave.net/index.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">45 Grave</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">. . .Maybe that was the first show
we played in Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No, it was with </span><a href="http://vinyljourney.blogspot.com/2006/01/vox-pop-band-myth-volume.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Vox Pop</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> which was basically the same group
of guys, Don Bolles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We also played with
Human Hands who was David Wiley, the singer of the Consumers, and his friends,
Monitor, who took us under their wing and really liked our stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When Monitor came to Phoenix or when Human
Hands came to Phoenix we would open for them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And then, you know, a half a dozen bands in town got to know each other,
we started to be able to do shows in rented halls.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of the other bands who were actually a
little bit more successful playing a little more mainstream sounds started
having some of us open for them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Basically, </span><a href="http://boingboing.net/2013/04/04/monitor-los-angeles-art-punks.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Monitor</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and the </span><a href="http://www.humanhands.com/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Human
Hands</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> and the </span><a href="http://www.lafms.com/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Los Angeles Free Music Society</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> adopted us
and began to have us over to do shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Eventually we met up with Black Flag, through our connections with a
company that was just distributing Monitor’s records. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met Joe Carducci who was going to put out a
record with us. When he went to work for SST he arranged for us to put out
records with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you become a touring band, a band
that outgrows Phoenix, but as opposed to some of your friends in the Consumers
and the Liars and 45 Grave, and the Germs why do you guys stay in Phoenix?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Why don’t you go to L.A. or somewhere else?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That is a good question.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You could just as easily ask, “Why did the
other guys move?”</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, the answer to that is that the
industry is in L.A.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I suspect that, first of all, it’s not
just the industry in L.A., there’s a party scene in L.A.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The three of us were never particularly
social.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t really like to party
that much, at least not back then.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
never really did, anyway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t have
a great urge to go out and hang-out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
didn’t have a lot of money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t
want to work.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We didn’t work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The last job I had was parking cars, which I
did for two weekends.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris and I both
were parking cars for a guy and we quit in order to play a gig.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was the last time we worked.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So one of the main reasons Cris and
Curt didn’t move out was because they were living in homes supplied by their
mom, who was a real estate agent, and had a little bit of money through her father,
their grandfather.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So she was basically
keeping those guys going.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were
getting a lot of help from their mom, and so was I cuz ultimately I was living
with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I’d say the main reason we
didn’t move out of Phoenix was because Vera White, their mom, supported us the
whole time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ultimately you can’t
disregard her input to our group, cuz we didn’t work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not like she showered us with money, but
those guys had some inheritance from the family and we just did gigs and we
hung-out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Plus Curt got twins fairly
early-on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were just kind of homebodies.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the long run, in the fifteen years
you were in the band, how did staying Phoenix influence your career?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It probably kept us going.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was an insulated scene.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mostly, we relied on each other, doing our
own little thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t see anything
we liked better than what we saw, what we already had.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was no reason for us to leave because
we weren’t discontented.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think we’ve always been of the
opinion that we controlled our career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So it was our choice to stay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Staying
in Phoenix didn’t influence us, we influenced ourselves by deciding to stay in
Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Obviously I don’t know what
it’s like to not be in Phoenix, so I couldn’t really say.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would assume if we had left and lived in a
city that had, like, hundreds of bands, we might have broken-up if somebody had
gotten in our ear and said, “You need something better, you need a better
band.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But since we more-or-less
hung-out together and we were bigger fish in a smaller pond, we probably got
more attention, and more sycophantic attention, than if we had been in L.A. and
had to compete for the same piece of pie with other bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Anybody who didn’t like us sucked, and
anybody who liked us could bow down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
just ran our own thing the way we wanted it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We didn’t have any pressure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
never got chased out of town by the police.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It wasn’t until later when we started being a
much larger band, and things began to become unpleasant for us, Curt decided to
move out to L.A.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I decided to move
out of Phoenix for awhile.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We stayed
because it worked for us right out of the chute.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t feel like we were struggling.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m sure bands leave Phoenix because they
feel like they deserve better and they figure they can get it somewhere
else.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But we were content with what we
were getting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got good success.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were able to travel to other cities.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We could leave. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You go out to L.A. and people are living
underneath desks and they’re living off of hand-outs from the guitarist’s dad
and bags of thrift store clothes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What,
are we gonna go, “Oh, God, we gotta get in on this!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is what we want!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a better deal at home.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And forever more you’re “that band from
Phoenix” whenever anything is written about you.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s another thing that helped us, was
being in Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the early-eighties
there was a push to regionalize punk rock, to Americanize it by, “Here’s a
scene from this city.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here’s a scene
from this city.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This type of music is
indigenous to here.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that was kind of
a media-hype play.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It suited us very
well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People were interested in that
kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Here’s the bands from
Milwaukee, here are the bands from Seattle, here are the bands from
Phoenix.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unfortunately, I don’t think
the Meat Puppets actually represented Phoenix the way Phoenix actually
was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Phoenix is not cow punk.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Phoenix is not psychedelic.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Alice Cooper represents the Phoenix music
style better than the Meat Puppets do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But if you really want to dice it well you gotta find the common ground
between us and Alice Cooper, and you’ll get a better picture of it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did you listen to country music when you
were in high school?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not at all.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>None of us listened to country music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were all into progressive music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt liked more rock and roll than Cris or
I.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris was really into fusion
jazz.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was really into the bands I
mentioned earlier.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But none of us
listened to country music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That country
music thing is obviously filtered through Grateful Dead and Neil Young.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We could pretend – wink, wink, nudge, nudge –
that it’s country, but it’s actually Neil Young.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I wonder if there were more country
music radio stations in Phoenix than, say, L.A.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Just walking around you might have heard a little bit, and saw cowboys
once in awhile.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Of course.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Certainly the cowboys were at school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If we saw them we would walk the other
way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are the people that would
pick on us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These were not people that
we emulated or idealized at all.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That
was another concept of the punk rock regionalism, was when we were starting to
embrace these styles, this was a reproach model of people who used to beat-up
on us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s like, “We’re only pretending
to be country because we’re saying, ‘We now own country and you can’t pick on
us anymore.’”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think this is part of
the whole impetus of the American punk rock scene in general, was for us to
take over.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Not for us to express any
love of the people that tormented us as children.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were erasing country music and taking it
on.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>When we were putting out our first
record with the guys from Monitor, they were actually going, “We’re gonna get
you guys on country music radio!”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We were like, “No, we’re really actually not
gonna get on country music radio.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">They were thinking that we could make “</span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93-CnnC3ZS4"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Tumbling Tumbleweeds</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">” or “</span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyt-RFesitI"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Walking Boss</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">” a single and put it out on mainstream country,
back in, like, 1981 when they were playing disco country.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">But country music had a couple of major
stations out here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was a major
country station in Phoenix that was a nation-wide hit-breaker owned by Buck
Owens.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it wasn’t like <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">we</i> had anything to do with it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What about your more contemporary life,
Derrick?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’ve been out of Meat Puppets
now longer than you were actually in the Meat Puppets as an active
musician.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You work for Whole Foods.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What’s your official title?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m the Systems Integrator for the
Arizona Metro, which basically means that I’m the top IT guy for the seven
stores in Arizona.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At what point did you get into the IT
stuff, the computer stuff?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In 1994 I lived next door to a guy who
had a Mac, and he wanted to sell his Mac and get a better one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I, by 1994, had a good system going.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That year we were touring pretty much
constantly for the entire year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
weren’t getting paid, but we were getting $25 per diems, plus there was food
backstage.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were also getting fed food
in the backstage.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I was pocketing
those per diems.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By mid-summer of 1994 I
had saved-up, like, a thousand bucks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Cuz you go to the backstage with a bag and throw all the bananas and the
waters into a bag and throw them back on the bus and you’re covered.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I bought this computer off of my neighbor
and began to stay up twenty-four hours trying to figure-out how to make it
work.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Around this time the internet started
mainstreaming, so I got on the internet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Did a website for the band starting in 1995.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I gotta tell you, back then you actually had
to know something to get on the internet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I remember it took me months to figure-out how to get my computer to
make a dial-up connection for free.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So I started doing websites.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I met my wife through . . .she was also a web
designer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We got to know each
other.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we were both into tech.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I thought the internet was great.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got access to stuff that I’d been wondering
about forever.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I slowly but surely
watched it build-up into the hype machine that it is today.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I started trying to get small design
jobs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Back then if you knew how to make
a break tag, is the joke among us oldsters, if you knew how to write a break
tag you could make a living.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I was
doing web development and stuff like that right up until about 2000.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got a job doing graphic design work for a
friend of mine, a start-up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That company
died in the dot-com bust.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For awhile I
was a lead designer and an art director for a company.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But for just a very short time, less than a
year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then I took odd jobs and realized
that you had to do an inordinate amount of client service and you had to hustle
and you almost never got to do the stuff you wanted to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I sucked at it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So after being unemployed for too long
and struggling for too long, about the same time the money ran out from the
band, I took a job working at Whole Foods cuz they opened one near my house.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Started at the bottom slinging produce and
slowly but surely worked my way up to the reasonably exalted cul-de-sac of a
position that I have now, as a middle-manager.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What about some of your other artistic
interests?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You like to take pictures,
right?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, I in 2003 or ’04 I began to read a
blog called </span><a href="http://www.43folders.com/"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Forty-three Folders</span></i></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> which was
a productivity blog that I’d read about in the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">New York Times</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I began to
become exposed to the notion of not wasting time so much.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This was a discipline called “Getting Things
Done” by a writer named </span><a href="http://www.gtdtimes.com/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">David Allen</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started getting into that for awhile and I
began to take stock of some of the stuff I was doing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was like, “I’m going to fire all of my
remaining clients and I’m gonna start a website and only do what I want to
do.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think we call those blogs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was a late-comer to that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I needed an excuse to write, anyway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I began to try to publish something on the
blog at least once a week, and there’s still a lot of it up there and a lot of
it shows what you come up with if you are extremely unproductive and you give
yourself a one-week deadline.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did a
lot of sharing albums that I had ripped from my thrift store collection or scans
of funny stuff I’d collected over the years.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I started getting more interested in some of
the history of Phoenix and my own interest in older buildings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started taking pictures of stuff that I was
afraid was gonna get knocked-down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I got
myself a small camera and started reading-up on photography, digital
photography.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By the time my first point-and-shoot
died I decided to get a proper camera and started paying a little more
attention to taking pictures.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I started
going out and taking mostly pictures of buildings in Phoenix or other locations
in the state that are in danger of getting knocked-down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of the stuff has gotten
knocked-down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just a hobby.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="margin-left: 58.5pt;">
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I have been super, super busy at work over the
last couple years as we are in the post-recession period as we struggle to
expand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I don’t do as much creative
stuff as I used to, but I have written substantially about the Meat
Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of it I’ve published on my
blog, some of it I have not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of it
is still gestating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Like you say, many of your photographs
are of old buildings, decaying buildings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Is your main interest in preserving history or do you just have an
interest in buildings that are falling apart?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I tend to like them better before they
get renovated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have a soft spot in my
heart for the buildings right before they’re gonna get knocked-down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wouldn’t go so far as to say I’ve ever
snuck into a building more than once or twice that was, you know, closed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But there are a lot of urban spelunkers out
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Part of my interest is fueled by
looking at some of these sites.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s
a lot of documentation of Detroit, for instance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve been to Detroit and I can attest that
it’s an amazing sight.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They say that
Detroit is the greatest collection of mid-century skyscrapers in America,
largely because they don’t have enough money to knock ‘em down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whereas a place like New York they knock
their old stuff down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Phoenix is
definitely a growth engine, so a lot that of that stuff gets knocked-down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But obviously there’s nothing here on the
level of Detroit.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So just in that spirit sometimes I’ll
get the itch, I’ll go out, drive around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>My wife does not like me prowling around the slums with a camera.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I only do as much of it as she can
stand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m not one of those teenage
hardcore kids who sneaks into abandoned warehouses at midnight.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What about your show on Luxuria?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’ve had a weekly show on Saturday
afternoons at Luxuriamusic.com which is devoted to essentially oddball
squirrely stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Occasionally I’ll get
on their chat room during my show and people will be like, “This is
awful!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s from a long time interest I
have in oddball novelty music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I used to
work on a magazine called <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Breakfast
without Meat</i> with a fellow who works with </span><a href="http://www.americasfunnyman.com/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Neil Hamburger</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He used to
put-out Neil Hamburger’s records before he stopped doing a label.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also the guys in Monitor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Monitor were the first people to really turn
me on to that kind of stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We used to
hang-out with their friend </span><a href="http://www.boydrice.com/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Boyd Rice</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> who called himself “Non” back
then.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had a passion for certain types
of teenage pop and so did the guys in Monitor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I started getting into it from there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I started collecting stuff from thrift stores.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Of course nowadays you can find so much of it
on the internet that you can have an international scope.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Probably around the time the band broke-up,
this kind of late-sixties easy-listening music started getting played in
clubs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Luxuriamusic.com, the first
incarnation was part of that bandwagon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were the greatest thing on the internet for me for the two years
that they were in business.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then they
got bought-out by Clear Channel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
basically bought their internet assets cuz this was at a time when everybody
was trying to figure-out how to make the internet pay.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After a couple years of being off the
air they reconstituted themselves in a much more standard kind of record
collectors, oldies, pop history enthusiasts kind of a station with much less of
a focus on that lounge core trend.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">But I still like the lounge core stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I still like extremely schmaltzy instrumental
easy-listening music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My show on
Saturday afternoons still reflects that.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is it live or do you put it together
ahead of time?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">D-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s recorded.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When they were reconstituting themselves they
did not even have a studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was only prerecorded
shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They now have a studio, but it’s
in Los Angeles, and the only time I ever go to L.A. anymore is for work
meetings, so I’ve never got a chance to go out there.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 58.5pt; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The station is still hanging in
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s still going strong.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s still listener supported.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s still just a labor of love.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s pretty much not-for-profit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We all donate our time to play the music we
love on it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a very cool group of
people that do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They give us very
little hard time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They let us be as
whiny as we want and reign us in very infrequently.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a great station.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wish I had more time to listen to it but,
honestly, I don’t listen to internet radio much, but I still find the time to
put together a show for them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I do a new
show and then a rebroadcast, I’ve been doing it since 2006, so I do two new
shows a month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Usually I have to take a
day off work to record everything, edit everything together, write all the
bits, and press them and stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s
time consuming.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: 58.5pt; text-align: center; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-no-proof: yes;">Conclusion</span></b></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Although I’ve talked with Derrick a
number of times on the phone, always within the context of an interview, I’ve
only met him in-person once.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was at
Northwestern University in February of 1994 and the Meat Puppets were in the
midst of their “Munchies” tour in support of their biggest-selling album <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were playing a free afternoon gig in the
Norris Student Center.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Along with being
a graduate student in Sociology at Northwestern, I was a DJ on WNUR, the school
radio station.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had already interviewed
Derrick and Cris Kirkwood by phone for my dissertation (a study of
selling-out), I thought I’d take advantage of my position as a DJ to get a
radio interview with the band.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I made to the Norris Center on time, just after the band had
set-up, but before they were ready to play.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I admit that I was a bit disappointed that Derrick was the only Meat
Puppet coming to the station with me for the interview.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was hoping, of course, for Curt, the band’s
“leader” and publicly most charismatic figure.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>On our walk over to the station Derrick and I talked about
Arizona (I had lived in Flagstaff for six years while working on my BA and MA
degrees).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We talked about the heat wave
that hit Phoenix only a few years earlier in which the temperatures reached
120+ degrees fahranheit, closing Sky Harbor Airport.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick told me that that was the summer he
stopped doing drugs.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Thinking myself tricky and witty and trying to show my expert
knowledge of all things Meat Puppets, I opened our interview by asking, “Have
the Meat Puppets sold out?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t
remember his exact response; the undergraduate college DJ in the station at the
time forgot to push “Record!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I do,
however, remember it being a vintage Bostrom response.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was direct and to-the-point, letting me
and our Chicagoland listeners know that the very idea of selling out was
absurd.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was a professional musician
in a professional rock band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My
insinuation that by making a professional sounding record they had somehow
compromised anything artistic was silly at best and most obviously misinformed.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It would be seventeen years before I’d talk with Derrick
again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve interviewed him by phone or
Skype six times in the last three years (mostly for a book I’m working
on).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In those seventeen years Derrick
has made a full break from his life as a working professional musician.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s “settled-down,” as they say.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s a married, vegan, mid-level
manager.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But he hasn’t lost his
artistically progressive vision of the world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As evidenced in this interview, he is keenly aware of the social and
cultural spaces in which he lives, has informed ideas about how these spaces
got to where they are and about where they are headed, and he documents these
ideas in numerous creative ways.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in;">
</div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in;">
</div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 58.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-25059508297747772782015-01-11T20:40:00.002-07:002023-05-28T10:25:32.582-06:00"No Joke!": A Section Removed from "The Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from 'Meat Puppets II' to 'No Joke!'"<!--[if !mso]>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">No Joke!</span></i></b></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Meat Puppets were riding a wave of success
in 1994.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> was released in January followed by a year packed
with tour dates, some of them high profile opening gigs with bands like Stone
Temple Pilots, others smaller headlining shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> would go on to
be certified Gold (500,000 copies sold).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>To this date the band’s biggest selling record.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But there were signs that Meat Puppets’
run at success was to be short lived.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>For one thing, even though the album and its single (“Backwater”) were
doing well, attendance at the band’s headlining gigs didn’t seem to grow in the
same proportion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was as if people
liked the song, bought the album, but didn’t care too much for the band in
general.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another sign of the band’s impending loss
of success was structural, the grunge era was coming to a close.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Meat Puppets’ success was in large part based
on their perceived association with big-time grunge acts like Nirvana, Blind
Melon, and Stone Temple Pilots.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With
grunge waning industry executives were looking to put their resources
elsewhere.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A third important reason for Meat Puppets
fall is more personal, especially for the Kirkwood brothers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Vera, the brothers’ mother, came down with
Cancer in late 1994.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris, especially,
was devastated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He moved in with her to
help her in her sickness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At this same
time Cris developed a serious heroin addiction, thus compounding the personal
and familial problems the Kirkwoods faced.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As 1994 morphed into 1995 Cris’s drug
addiction became more and more of a problem for the band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He became difficult to work with both on the
road and in the studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was often a
no-show at the recording sessions for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No
Joke!</i>, the follow-up to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to
Die</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And when he did show up he
would nod off in heroin-induced sleep.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Things became so bad that Curt, Derrick, and second-time producer Paul
Leary left for California to finish the record, without telling Cris.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indeed, it was around this time that Curt, in
an attempt to distance himself from his family problems, moved to Long Beach,
essentially separating himself from the rest of the band.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the second half of 1995 executives from
London Records met a few times with Curt, urging him to drop Cris from the
band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt wouldn’t do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt’s loyalty, it seems, was to his brother
and band rather than the label.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>London
Records promptly dropped Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
final tour of the original Meat Puppets was an opening slot for Primus in late
1995; their final gig was New Year’s Eve in Chicago.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Too High to Die</span></i></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Success</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As
mentioned in the previous chapter, some good things were happening for the band
in the Fall/Winter of 1993 leading-up to the January 1994 release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In early October the band headlined the 96
Wave (96.1 WAVF) WaveFest in Charleston, South Carolina, a festival attended by
“as many as 30,000 fans” (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2482&dat=20011009&id=NZ1IAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CAsNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1732,3429789),
including a few influential radio promoters who were impressed with the
performance and got the word out that Meat Puppets are radio ready.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Soon after this they played their week or so
of shows opening for Nirvana who, at this point, were the most popular rock
band in the nation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, again, more big
crowds and more exposure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In November
Curt and Cris joined Nirvana to record MTV’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nirvana Unplugged</i> which aired for the first time on December 14;
two of the three Meat Puppets songs made the final video cut (all three would
make the CD to be released a year later).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With the
looming success of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>,<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"> </i>Nineteen ninety-four proved to be one
of Meat Puppets’ busiest years before or since.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The record was released on January 25 for which, as is customary, the
band would embark on a year-long series of concert tours to promote.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First, however, some housecleaning was in
order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One action they took was to find
new management in the form of big-time managers John Silva and Tami Blevins of
Gold Mountain Entertainment. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Derrick suggests,
Silva and Blevins took some of the pressure off of the band so that they could
concentrate on their art rather than on the business.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">John hired the day-to-day person who’d been working with us from
our old management, so the transition was good.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We were able to concentrate on doing shows and not have to worry so much
about that stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Our old manager was
picking at us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He seemed to be more
worried about getting his cut, and our new manager more like, “You guys do what
you do and I’ll do what I do and don’t worry about a thing.” (personal
interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">At one point while “auditioning”
possible second guitarists John Frusciante, who had recently quit playing with
the Red Hot Chili Peppers, went to Phoenix to jam with Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris’s telling of this story is consistent
with the idea that London Records was encouraging the band to pick-up a second
guitarist ala Nirvana.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">John came out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He quit the Chilis and he said in some
newspaper article that the only band he’d think about playing with was us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And the record label saw it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we knew John.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And they were like, “Why don’t you ask him if
he’d like to do that?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It seemed like an
interesting idea, as I recall.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>John came
out and jammed with us a little bit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
was trippy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was interesting.
(personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In
the end Curt settled on Troy Meiss, a guitarist from Kansas who had spent a bit
of time playing with the Feelies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both
Curt and Derrick enjoyed having Troy on tour but Cris, on the other hand,
apparently did not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris, according to
Troy, did not like him and treated him horribly during Meat Puppets’ extensive
1994 tour schedule (Prato 2012). Though Derrick liked him as a member of the
band, he saw the addition of Troy as a causal factor in Cris’s increasingly
erratic behavior; Curt was spending more time with Troy than with Cris.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Without the structure of
being tight with his brother, with Curt going off with Troy, I’m afraid that
had as much to do with Cris getting into trouble as anything else. (personal
interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Too
High to Die</span></i><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> was released on January 25, 1994,
and the band immediately hit the road to promote it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They began the year with what they titled the
“Munchies” tour, a two-week acoustic promotional jaunt for press, retail, and
colleges throughout the country with lunch bags full of goodies as promotion
gifts.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<span style="mso-no-proof: yes;">
</span><span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">(http://derrickbostrom.com/2005/11/)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The band began February by making a professional-budget video
for “Backwater,” directed by established videographer Rocky Schenck, a video
that received ample airplay on MTV. Schenck had already made a name for himself
making videos for Alice in Chains, the Afghan Wigs, and Paul Westerberg, among
others.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The video caught much of the
psychedelic joy that Meat Puppets’ fans enjoyed:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>liquid distorted images of the band members,
disturbed looking clowns, trolls, long hair.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was a cool video to make, says Cris.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 31.5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">He made these clear plastic tanks, big enough that you could get
all the way underneath, and then suspended them over each other and hung a
camera on top of it and shot down through them, and floated flowers and shit,
had us get underneath them at different levels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was a trip.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And there’s some
cool other affects, like shards of mirrors. (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The video received ample airplay on MTV, helping
propel the song to </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">#47 in Billboard Hot 100 and #2 on the Billboard
Album Rock Charts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It also received a
nomination for Best Editing in a Video at the 1994 MTV Video Awards.<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span></span></span></a></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In
late November/early December of 1994 Meat Puppets embarked on a short (“five or
six shows at the most” [Derrick, personal correspondence, 2012]) headline tour
of France and the Netherlands with Alternative Tentacles band Alice Donut.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt and Cris brought their mother, Vera,
along for the trip.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was here that the
cancer she would battle for the next couple years first became an issue, one
which play a major part in the lives of the Kirkwood brothers leading up to,
and beyond, the making of their next record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> (Prato 2012).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With
the twelve months of touring in 1994 coming to an end it became time for Curt
to whip up a batch of new songs and for the band to get to work on making a new
record for 1995.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But, as things tend to
be, there were problems to be dealt with, roadblocks to plow through, life to
live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One problem, though not
necessarily a threat to the band’s existence, was Derrick’s increasing distance
from the Kirkwood brothers and boredom with the rock and roll lifestyle.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It had become all business to him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had stopped partying, doing any drugs
really, in the late 1980s, so at this point he would show up for gigs, play,
and go back to his hotel room.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The
only bone of contention there would be that after a gig I wouldn’t stay up all
night with the label hacks doing drugs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I would go back to my room and try to get some rest so that I could
continue on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I do not do well without
rest.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I learned that on the road.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If I don’t get enough sleep, I can’t
function.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So after a certain point I was
like, “You’re gonna do the 4:00 am record promotion.”</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And Curt used to try to pretend that it
was a huge burden.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like, “You need to be
there!</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">”</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And
I’m like, “If that’s what it’s gonna take, I guess we’re gonna fail.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m not doing it.” (Derrick, personal
interview, 2012).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">But overall,
Derrick liked his job and was happy being in the band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When asked if he enjoyed his time in the band
in 1994, he responded</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">More or less.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>More so than the late-eighties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I liked working with Tami.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I liked having the accountants to help us
with our stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I liked having our
finances more or less in order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
thought we were doing good shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
enjoyed having Troy around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I very much
enjoyed working with our tour manager, Ben Marts, during ’94. (personal
interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
main problem for the band at this point, it seems, was Cris’s drug use and its
concomitant tribulations for himself and for those around him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The scene Meat Puppets were playing through
1994 was rife with hard drugs, heroin and cocaine were readily available.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A number of the artists Meat Puppets played
with at this time are now well-publicized cases of drug addiction.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was no secret that Kurt Cobain used heroin
regularly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And though he died from a
self-inflicted gunshot wound rather than heroin in April of 1994, many feel
that drugs played a significant part in his ongoing depression.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Stone Temple Pilots front man Scott Weiland
is said to have started using heroin with Butthole Surfers’ Gibby Haynes on the
bands’ 1993 tour together; Paul Leary, the producer of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> and the upcoming <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> being Haynes’ bandmate, had this to say to Greg Prato
(2012):<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Everything I had my hands into
was turning to shit because of somebody’s fucking drug problem” (p. 279).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Additionally, Shannon Hoon, lead singer for
Blind Melon (the band Meat Puppets toured with in February, 1994) had serious
drug problems and died of a cocaine overdose in October, 1995.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Mix
together the fact that hard drugs were rampant in this particular scene, that
Vera, the Kirkwood’s mom, was battling cancer, and that Curt and Cris had never
been ones to shy away from drug ingestion, and you have a perfect recipe for a
Meat Puppet to come down with an addiction himself, and it was Cris.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Furthermore Cris was now dating Michelle
Tardif, a woman who had a taste for hard drugs herself,<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "ヒラギノ角ゴ Pro W3"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[2]</span></span></span></span></a>
so now he had an intimate with which to share his addiction.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Top this off with the fact that it was Cris
who moved in with Vera to provide hospice as she died, and you end-up with one
sick Puppet.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>According
to Derrick, it was par for the course that Cris would become increasingly
unstable as Meat Puppets’ tours progressed.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The first week or so of any
tour throughout our career was fine until one of Cris’s tent posts came undone
and then his tent flaps started flapping in the wind and then all the posts would
come undone and the next thing you know he was a freakin’ mess and unbearable
to be around. (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The addition of Troy to the band’s
touring line-up didn’t seem to help the situation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Troy gave Curt someone other than Cris to
hang-out with on tour, leaving Cris to his own devices, many of which involved
hard drugs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One result of Cris’s
estrangement from Curt was that Cris did not treat Troy well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indeed, according to Troy, “the guy fucking
tortured me” (Prato, p. 260).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
combination of coming off a year of intense touring, Curt writing songs for a
new album, taking care of Vera, Cris’s disabilities due to drugs, and the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Unplugged in New York</i> payday, led to a
relatively quiet early 1995 for Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Curt, who had had enough of Cris and his habits, and was not dealing
well with his mother’s illness, moved to California after the recording of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>, ostensibly to find a new
touring rhythm guitarist, and stayed, living by the beach in Venice, for two
years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He did eventually hire Kyle Ellison
to play on Meat Puppets’ final tour with their “original” line-up, with Primus
in November, 1995.<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "ヒラギノ角ゴ Pro W3"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[3]</span></span></span></span></a></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<br /></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">According
to Derrick, Meat Puppets were looking forward to making a “proper major label
record with lots of money and lots of big nerdy engineering stuff” (personal
interview, 2012) this time out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To this
end Curt spent the first few months of 1995 writing songs and the band cut
demos of these songs which they dutifully sent to London as any proper major
label act would do. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Following their </span><i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">laissez-faire</span></i>
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">attitude toward the band, London accepted the demos out of
hand.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As
Derrick suggests, “</span><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">During the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> sessions Cris’s drug problems were in full effect.”
(personal interview, 2012)<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There were
days, says co-producer Paul Leary, when Cris simply wouldn’t show up, putting
recording on hold until he would (Prato, 2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They would even schedule days just for Cris to come in, and sometimes he
wouldn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One day he came in, promptly
laid face-down on the floor of the studio, and slept for three hours
(Prato,2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sometimes he nodded off
while playing. (Cris, personal interview, 2012; Prato, 2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In short, as Peter Koepke, President of
London Records and the man responsible for signing Meat Puppets, told Greg
Prato (2012), Cris was totally unreliable at this point.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">As for the relationships between
Curt, Cris, and Derrick as band members during the recording sessions, things
were strained.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The pressures of making a
record and having two seriously unhealthy family members (his brother and
mother) was taking its toll on Curt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>According to Dennis Pelowski, a long-time friend of the band (and
current manager, 2008-present), Curt was “the most uptight I’ve ever seen him
in his life (Prato 2012, p. 268).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt
and Cris, especially seemed to be at odds with one another, Cris’s
addiction-fueled (non) activities being the main cause.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But overall, according to Derrick, none of
the band members were speaking to each other much.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They lived apart, came to the studio
separately, did their parts, and left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Separately.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Despite the interpersonal troubles Curt,
Cris, and Derrick were having during the making of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>, in an interview with Greg Prato for his book <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> (2012) Curt actually
claims that the recording of the record was actually “fun” and “easy.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reason being that it was the first major
label record they were able to make at home, “in town,” in Phoenix.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Fun and easy though it may have been to
make the record in town, in the end Curt, Paul, and engineer Cris Shaw ended-up
finishing the record at Westlake Studio in Los Angeles, without letting Cris
know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Prato’s book this seems to be a
pretty big deal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both Paul Leary and
Troy Meiss remember the move to L.A. as a fairly definitive moment in the
recording of the record (Prato 2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>However when I interviewed Curt in 2012 he had a hard time recalling the
move, and Derrick (again in a 2012 personal interview) said, “I didn’t even
know they went to California to finish it.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Eventually, after a little prodding, Curt said, “Maybe we did go out
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I guess that’s true.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He continued by saying that he and Derrick
had done the same thing when recording 1989’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>:</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Cris was drinking a lot and
being obnoxious, so Derrick and I went out there and started <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>, got a whole lot of it done
before we had him come out. (personal interview)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In the end, as Curt’s memory of the
event came back, he says they only went to California to do final mixes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The vast majority of the record was made in
Phoenix.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What
Puppets Say about the Record</span></b></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
general consensus among Meat Puppets is that <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> sounds good but, unlike <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> which, according to Curt,</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">pretty accurately nailed how
the band sounded at the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> was a little bit more of a
process in the recording to where it sounded like a record more than the band.
(personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It sounds like a record, they say,
which is to say it doesn’t seem to have the looseness and intersubjectivity of
feel that had come to characterize the band’s live sound by this time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It sounds, to Derrick, like a “cut-and-paste”
record, one that’s good, but “the vibe’s not there.” (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Curt
suggests the “heavy” sound of the record is the result of the rock music sounds
that were around at the time, the sounds that Curt and the band were around at
the time:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“With that album we were
playing a lot of big, loud shows, so the record came out more rock, or heavy
rock.” (personal interview, 2012)</span><span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">As for the content of the record,
the songs themselves, Curt and Derrick agree that it is dark, probably due to
the circumstances under which it was made.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Furthermore, the scene in which they were caught up influenced the
record’s “dark” nature,</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It's really just a bunch of
my stuff filtered thru the "alternative" scene that we were sort of
caught up in...lots of hard rock with teen angst overtones. Perhaps a bit
of influence from my own band’s plight, but plight was all around as we toured
with Nirvana, STP, Blind Melon, etc. Lots of drug use around and I wasn't
using...just watching others fuck their lives up. I tried to make it
beautiful anyways but with a little sting. (Curt, personal correspondence,
2012)</span></div>
<div align="center" class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Others Say</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reviews of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> are mixed, with more writers rating it on the negative
side than probably any other Meat Puppets’ release.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some reviewers fall on the side that the
record is decent, nice to listen to, average, competent, standard rock with
songs that are okay. (http://www.allmusic.com/album/no-joke!-mw0000645644, http://www.reocities.com/mjareviews/meatpupp.html#NO)<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The sense here is that the record is alright,
but not as outstanding a record as one might expect from such a mighty
band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thus, it’s a bit
disappointing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Along these same lines
are writers who feel the record is not inspired, not glorious (as if glory was
expected of this band), and bland.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>(http://www.reocities.com/mjareviews/meatpupp.html#NO)<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Furthermore, some writers accused the record
of sounding “samey,” (http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm#nojoke</span>)<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> suggesting
a lack of sonic texture from song to song, resulting in a record that, rather
than challenging the listener, is something more like “easy listening” (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1995-11-17/entertainment/9511170448_1_meat-puppets-curt-kirkwood-joke</span>)
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Again, bland and probably insignificant.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Never-the-less, of course, there are those
who write positively about <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mark Prindle, for instance, wrote that it was
one of the best CDs of the year, containing “nine great songs’ (out of
thirteen), and Nick Karn suggests it has “traces of greatness.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is seen as a “fun ride” and “you will like
it.” (http://dailyuw.com/archive/1995/12/07/imported/stylus-record-review-meat-puppetsno-joke#.UNkxM6xQDHQ,
http://www.westnet.com/consumable/1995/11.13/revmeatp.html</span>).</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">As with any band that reaches “legend” or
“godfather” status, and Meat Puppets were on the cusp in 1995, new recordings
are measured (artistically and commercially) against the successes of their
past.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> is no exception.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
one paragraph, for instance, the reviewer for the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">All Music Guide</i> suggests that Meat Puppets “didn’t mess with the
formula” of their past records, “the band’s essential sound” hasn’t changed,
and that “the tunes and riffs are cut from the same mold as before” (http://www.allmusic.com/album/no-joke!-mw0000645644).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>
is variously seen as “one of your finer Meat Puppets albums”
(http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm#nojoke), “the same great stuff”
(http://www.westnet.com/consumable/1995/11.13/revmeatp.html), “a return to
form” (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,298709,00.html),<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>and “no exception” to the band’s immaculate
rhymes of the past (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1995-11-17/entertainment/9511170448_1_meat-puppets-curt-kirkwood-joke).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A few reviews, of course, compared the new
record with its predecessor, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to
Die</i>, wondering if it could duplicate the former’s success, noting <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> to be a “darker” version of its
more successful cousin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally, there
were those who wrote that this mid-1990s version of Meat Puppets had changed,
they weren’t “the same set of Puppets that roared out of the blocks in the
early ‘80s”
(http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1056613&style=music&fulldesc=T,
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/11.22.95/meatpup-9547.html).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Reviewers also noted that, similar to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>, Butthole Surfers’
guitarist Paul Leary was once again hired-on to co-produce <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>, and along with this is the mention that the record has a
“heavier” sound than its predecessor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s also considered more “straight ahead” with more brisk tempos that <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Again, the important point to the above
comparative reviews is that by the mid-1990s Meat Puppets were already
enshrined as an essential forerunner of the bourgeoning grunge scene, and their
best records were considered to have been made a decade previous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The playing of three <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> songs on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nirvana
Unplugged</i> (and nothing from any other point in their career) served to
solidify this perception of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Reviewers, then, really couldn’t help themselves from comparing
“current” Puppets fare with their output from the early 80s.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Many writers commented on the contrast
between <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Jokes!’</i> guitar heavy sound
and its melodic vocals and harmonies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
is said to have “distorted chord washes,” “scorching rock riffs,” and “bone
crushing,” “lugubrious thrashing” (to emphasize its dark tone) mixed alongside
a “smooth voice” and “soft melodic vocals” that make for a “pleasing chorus” made
up of “off kilter yet on target harmonies” all, again in comparison with
earlier records, delivered in Curt’s “distinctive vocal drone.”</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Of course writers, as they are apt to do,
reviewed <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> as it fit within
their perceptions of already existing musical genres.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most common, is the case for Meat Puppets’
records dating back to their first full-length in 1981, they are seen (heard)
to have a strong country strain:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>they
are written about as “countryish,” “country-western folk,” “twisted country,”
“hillbilly,” and “breezy country rock,” as well as “rootsy” and “southern
fried” (be sure to catch the drug reference with that last one).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also, however, writers made sure to highlight
Meat Puppets’ hardcore punk rock roots and how these roots link the band to the
then modern grunge and alternative movements.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Though Curt claims that at the time he
didn’t notice the dark themes within the record (though he says that now, with
time and distance from the record, he can see how others might see it that
way), many writers did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe, as Cris
says, it was the influence of their dying mother, or maybe it was Curt’s
difficulties in dealing with a brother firmly in the grasp of heroin addiction,
or possibly it was the impending demise of his band at the precise moment when
they were poised to make it big).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Whatever the reasons, critics saw <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No
Joke!</i> as lacking the humor of the band’s past records (again, comparing
this one to their earlier catalogue), as having a “more brutal vision” than
previous records, “brutish,” “grim”, “absurd and dark,” akin to a “Poe short story”
that contains “distorted observations of humanity.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Derrick might say, in a catalogue full of
dark-themed songs, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> is a
particularly dire sounding record.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Of course the critics didn’t avoid Cris’s
fall as they wrote about the album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One
writer chastised London for “throwing away one of the best CDs of the year”
simply because “your bass player is a drug user.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>While another makes reference to the “drug
fried” Cris.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On a positive note,
however, a few writers liked the contributions Cris made to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> in the form of two songs:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Inflatable” and “Cobbler.”</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally, Curt’s lyrics don’t go unnoticed
by reviewers of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are described as “catchy” “super-smart
poems.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As was his style by now, his
songs are filled with “bad-trip metaphors” and “outright nihilism,” seen as
“lyrically absurd.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indeed, one
criticism of the record as a whole is that the lyrics are “getting a bit <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">too</i> absurd for their own good.”</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Post-<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i>/The End of Meat Puppets V.1</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">No Joke!</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> was recorded in April, 1995, and
released six months later on October 3.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As Curt says, London Records was prepared to throw their heavy guns into
promoting the record (Derrick isn’t quite so sure about this).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They pushed the first single, “Scum,” getting
it in rotation at a number of mainstream rock radio stations early on. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then, as Curt also says, when they got wind
that the band was “messing up on the dope” (Curt, personal interview), they
pulled the plug.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> reached #183 on the Billboard 200 charts (compared to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i>, which reached #62).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Between the recording of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> and its release not a lot
happened.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt moved to California to,
in his words, “detach” himself from his brother’s habit and his mother’s
terminal illness (Derrick remembers Curt going to California ostensibly to look
for a new bassist).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick, as far as
he was involved in band-related activities, worked on designs for the CD
insert.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris took care of his ailing
mother and became firmly addicted to heroin.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Three days after the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> Meat Puppet’s again played Wavefest
in South Carolina.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They also appeared on
Conan O’Brien in October, playing “Scum” with new second guitarist Kyle Ellison,
and on MTV <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">120 Minutes</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On October 21, Blind Melon’s Shannon Hoon,
another alternative/indie/grunge colleague of the band, died of a cocaine
overdose, yet another reminder for Curt of the “scene” in which his band was a
part.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Soon after the record’s release, Meat
Puppets’ management, Gold Mountain, began to badger Curt to replace Cris, who’d
become too much of a liability for a label that had only a year or so before
had to deal with the drug addictions and suicide of Curt Cobain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They told Curt that either Cris goes or the
entire band goes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">That didn’t sit well with me,” says Curt, “so they got rid of us
all.” (personal interview, 2012)</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In November Meat Puppets headed-out as a
support act for Primus, a tour that would be their last.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick says that this was the third leg of
Primus’s 1995 tour and, thus, they were playing tertiary markets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Many of the gigs played were in college
basketball arenas that held anywhere from 4,500 to 6,000 people:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>SUNY Albany, Western Connecticut University,
Lehigh University.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris, in his own
words, was pretty messed-up at this point:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">That was the only tour I did when I
was actually addicted to dope.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was
hellish.” (personal interview, 2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Additionally, it was becoming apparent to Curt that London had withdrawn
support for the record:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Nobody even knew we had a record out even though the record
company was like, “This is getting a lot of adds” and all this stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It went away pretty quickly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They lost faith in us because the band was
messing up with the dope and stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
could tell. (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Curt
finally had to accept reality, he had been living in denial about Cris’s
habit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe, he suggests, he was too
involved in the situation to recognize what was going on:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“I was just too close to it to see it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think other people saw it a little more
clearly.” (2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The writing was on the wall.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt cancelled any and all engagements that
the band had planned for 1996.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The last
show of the original Meat Puppets was on December 31, 1995 at the Hard Rock
Café in Chicago.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The actual end of the original band writes
more like a fade away than a clean break.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There was never an actual “break-up.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As Curt sees it the band stopped working because he, its leader, let
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In his thoughts letting everyone
cool-out for awhile, letting Cris see that nothing professional would happen if
he didn’t get his act together, would bring the band back together.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But that didn’t work.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The reason the thing came to a halt for awhile was because I
just didn’t do anything about it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I quit
talking to Derrick and quit talking to Cris.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I was like, “Well, maybe this will work itself out.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And it didn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There wasn’t anything that was, like, an
event or something like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I tried to
get Cris to go to rehab.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He wouldn’t do
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I figured he’d get over it pretty
quickly if I quit doing anything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it
didn’t get any better.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So time just went
on. (personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Derrick’s story of the original band’s
demise is similar to Curt’s, peppered with a bit of bitterness at Curt claiming
sole ownership of an enterprise that had included Derrick from the start.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Curt cancelled the tour and
moved to California.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And it was like,
“I’ll let you know if I need anything else.”</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I was like, “Great.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ve got money from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die</i> and I don’t have anything lined-up with the
band.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I got on with my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Eventually he was like, “So, uh, yea. . .,”
two years later or whatever.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And I was like, “I got other things to
do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here’s my schedule.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you can fit into my schedule.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have a life, too.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m not just sitting around waiting for you
to call me.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Once I put it to him like
that, I was like, “I’d love to work with you again, but here are the things that
I need to do.”</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>He didn’t
call me back.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He just got his own band
together.<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span></span></span></a></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So ended Meat Puppets version one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No
Joke!</i> is an underrated record containing some solid songs recorded in a
professional manner.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it wasn’t meant
to be for Derrick, Curt, and Cris.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick,
anxious to get on with his professional life outside of music, found himself a
regional position with Whole Foods Market.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But he still had a little music left in him:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 1996 he released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Songs of Spiritual Uplift</i> and in 2000, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Sounds of Today</i>, both under the moniker Today’s Sounds.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Cris continued to battle his family and
drug demons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In a fairly short span
after the end of the band his mother died, his wife died, and a good friend
died (on his couch).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 2003 he began a
twenty-one month prison term for assaulting a security guard at a Phoenix post
office.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The prison stint did, however,
work in Cris’s favor as he was finally able to kick his habit while inside.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Curt continued on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After the break-up of the original band he
put together a new one with the name Royal Neanderthal Orchestra.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, label pressures encouraged him to
rechristen the band Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This
version of Meat Puppets released an EP (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">You
Love Me</i>, 1999), and LP (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Golden Lies</i>,
2000), and a live LP (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Live</i>, 2002).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Furthermore, he teamed up with Krist
Noveselic of Nirvana and Bud Gaugh of Sublime to release one eponymous record
under the name Eyes Adrift (2002).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
then released another album with Bud Gaugh and other friends, the self-title <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Volcano</i> (2004).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally, in 2005 Curt released a solo record,
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Snow</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In 2005 Cris was released from
prison.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 2006, through Curt’s son
Elmo, he got in touch with Curt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In 2007
Curt and Cris released a new Meat Puppets record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rise to Your Knees</i>, with new drummer Ted Marcus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They then began a regular touring and
recording schedule releasing new records in 2009 (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Sewn Together</i>), 2011 (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Lollipop</i>),
and 2013 (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rat Farm</i>); the last two
using Shandon Sahm on drums.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And that’s where they stand today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Meat Puppets (Curt Kirkwood, Cris Kirkwood,
and Shandon Sahm) are today a professional rock group touring and recording at
a regular clip.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As always, it’s Curt’s
band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He writes the songs, makes most of
the “important” decisions, and writes the lyrics.</span></div>
<div style="mso-element: footnote-list;">
<br clear="all" />
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<div id="ftn1" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"> Other videos nominated were “Everybody
Hurts, R.E.M. (winner), “Amazing,” Aerosmith, “Human Behaviour,” Bjork, “Sweet
Lullaby,” Deep Forest, “Kiss the Frog,” Peter Gabriel, and “Disarm,” Smashing
Pumpkins.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="ftn2" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"> Cris and Michelle would marry in 1996, she
would die of a drug-related infection in August of 1998.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="ftn3" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"> Kyle would also play guitar in Curt’s next
version of Meat Puppets (also known as the Royal Neanderthal Orchestra) that
released one EP, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">You Love Me</i>, in
1999, one studio LP, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Golden Lies</i>, in
2000, and one live record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets
Live</i> (2001).</span></div>
</div>
<div id="ftn4" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span></span></span></a> In
1999 Curt put together the Royal Neanderthal Orchestra, a band that included
current Meat Puppet’s drummer Shandon Sahm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He eventually rechristened that band Meat Puppets even though Curt was
the only member left from the original band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This version of Meat Puppets released a studio EP (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">You Love Me</i>, 1999), one studio LP (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Golden Lies</i>, 2000) and one live LP (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets Live</i>, 2002).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
2006, after Cris’s eighteen month stint in prison for assaulting a post office
security guard, the Kirkwood brothers reformed Meat Puppets without Derrick,</div>
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoEndnoteText" style="text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="mso-bidi-font-family: "Courier New";">They had a third party say, “So, you wouldn’t really be
interested I doing this, would you?”</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“No, not really.”</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">“We didn’t think so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thanks.” (Derrick, personal interview, 2012)</span></div>
<div class="Body">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Courier New"; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">As of this writing, the current Meat Puppets
have released four LPs:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rise to Your Knees</i> (2007, with Ted
Marcus on drums), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Sewn Together</i>
(2009, with Marcus again on drums), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Lollipop</i>
(2011, with Shandon Sahm on drums), and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rat
Farm</i> (2013, with Sahm on drums).</span></div>
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<br /></div>
</div>
</div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-25271439093029528012015-01-10T10:39:00.000-07:002015-01-10T10:39:36.326-07:00"Too High to Die": A Deleted Element from "The Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from 'Meat Puppets II' to 'No Joke!'"<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;">
<b><i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Too High to Die<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> With the dismal commercial showing of <i>Forbidden Places</i> and the overwhelming
popularity of Nirvana and grunge fresh on everyone’s minds, Meat Puppets set
out to record their next album for London Records. The problem, at least from the band’s point
of view, was that the label was dragging its feet on “letting” them
record. The problem, from the label’s
perspective, was figuring out an angle with which to market this eclectic band. What to do?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> First off, indeed, the label did drag its
feet. Meat Puppets dutifully turned in
numerous demos, all of which were termed as not being radio friendly. Next, the label gave the band the go ahead to
record an album of acoustic versions of previous “hits.” Finally, based on a series of fortuitous live
performances, a cover of the Feederz “Fuck You,” the agreement upon an
indie-hip producer, and the radio readiness of what would become their highest
charting single, London gave the go ahead to record and opened their
promotional coffers.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The experience with London, however, left
a bad taste in the mouths of Curt, Cris, and Derrick. Their artistic freedom seemed to be squashed
and their ability to work how they wanted with whomever and whenever they wanted
was gone. The band was angry at best,
hopeless at worst.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Context of the Record<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> As discussed in the previous chapter, in
1991 Nirvana’s <i>Nevermind</i> came out
just two months after Meat Puppets’ <i>Forbidden
Places</i>. Similarly, Nirvana’s next
record, <i>In Utero</i> was released in
September of 1993, four months before the January ‘94 release of Meat Puppets’
next album, <i>Too High to Die</i>. In the two years between the bands’ releases
Nirvana became the world’s most recognizable rock band while Meat Puppets
floundered to find an audience larger than they had while on SST and London
Records struggled to find a marketing strategy for pushing their musically
eclectic band.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> So in the Spring and Summer of 1992 Meat
Puppets did what most bands do after releasing an album, they toured. But this was their first time touring in
support of a major label record, and the tour reflected this. For one thing, as they had required the band
to hire a general band manager, London also required them to hire a tour
manager. For a band that had been
self-managed for the past twelve years, it wasn’t clear why another layer of
management was necessary, but perceiving that they had little choice, they went
along with it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The Sociology of organizations suggests
that businesses within the same industry tend to mimic one another
structurally; this is known as isomorphism.
Businesses mimic each other because (A) this is the way things have
always been done and (B) this is the way everyone else is doing it. Structural isomorphism is often followed at
the expense of organizational learning and change; businesses continue to mimic
each other often to their own detriment.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The major label music industry of the
early 1990s is no exception to the rule of structural isomorphism. With the huge success of Nirvana, as well as
the successes of other punk/indie projects and bands like Lollapalooza, the Red
Hot Chili Peppers, and Jane’s Addiction, “alternative” was born, and labels
were putting big resources into packaging a set of disparate bands (some new
and naive [i.e. Paw], some old and weathered [i.e. Sonic Youth]) as a marketing
genre.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">As isomorphism goes, labels sold these disparate
bands in a way that suggested they shared certain sonic, visual, and lyrical
codes (Weinstein): a hard rock/punk rock
mix (think Black Sabbath mixed with the Ramones), ripped jeans/flannel
shirts/long hair, songs of disaffection.
Of course these newly found mainstream codes had been around for a
decade or more, pioneered by punk and indie rock bands from the seventies and
eighties. Major label executives simply
tapped into, and sometimes bought out, the shadow indie industry discussed in
the last chapter.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It was in this epoch of rock history that Meat
Puppets and London Records found themselves after 1991, after the release of <i>Forbidden Places</i>. For one thing, it caught the attention of
London executives that many of the money making bands in the post-<i>Nevermind</i> alternative market, especially
Nirvana, were name dropping Meat Puppets as an important influence on their own
art. For another, the general hard rock
sound of Meat Puppets, especially in their live shows (a little less frequently
on their records), was popular with grunge (alternative) audiences. And Meat Puppets’ long-haired t-shirt and
jeans “look,” for what it was, was now hip.
The executives at London decided alternative/grunge was the way to
market the band, fit their gelatinous peg into a now well-established hole.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Another example of industry isomorphism, can be seen
in the ways that London Records dealt with Meat Puppets in the first years of
their relationship. They required them
to get “professional” management, a professional producer, and a tour manager,
among other things. They did this
without much regard for Meat Puppets’ previous decade-plus of
self-management. Why? Because it was the way it had always been
done and the way that all the other major labels dealt with their bands.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">London’s new marketing strategy for Meat Puppets
meant a couple things. First, it meant
that label executives would be pressuring the band to act alternative (i.e.
make music that could be marketed to an alternative audience). Second it meant that Meat Puppets would need
to find a way to make the art-based music they always had while also making it
sound good to their alternative genre obsessed employers. For a band as fiercely independent as Meat
Puppets, pleasing London Records while also following a “pure” artistic musical
path was frustrating. Two early 1993
interviews I conducted with Derrick (January) and Cris (February) shed light on
the frustrations the band was feeling during this time.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">At the time of the interviews I was conducting
research for my Sociology dissertation (1996) at Northwestern University, the
topic of which was “selling out.” I
wrote the band at the address they provided on their records. Derrick wrote back with his and Cris’s phone
numbers, but not Curt’s. In the
interview I asked Derrick why he didn’t give me Curt’s phone number as
well. He said that I’d get a lot of
“crap,” meaning information, from him and Cris, but that he didn’t think Curt
would “particularly want to address himself to your particular topic” (personal
interview). Later on in the interview
Derrick tells me that Curt is “more into being a celebrity than he is being a
straight musician. He’s into being a
personality. Somebody who has a unique
outlook on life that people find interesting” (personal interview).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Derrick’s comments highlight Curt’s presentation of
himself as above and beyond the frays of the major label business world. Whereas Cris and Derrick were more than
willing to talk with me (as I’ll show momentarily) about what they saw as the
evils of the music industry, Curt (at least back in 1993) preferred to stay out
of that argument, at least practically.
Instead, as I’ll show later, he would air his gripes more obliquely, in
his lyrics.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> <b>1993 Interviews with Derrick and Cris. </b>At the time of my interviews with Derrick
and Cris in 1993 Meat Puppets were in the midst of a stalemate with London
Records. <i>Forbidden Places</i> had tanked, therefore marketing them as a straight
ahead rock band with country leanings wasn’t working. The band, of course, wanted to continue
making records like they always had.
This meant putting whatever mélange of musical styles on the album they
wanted as long as it tickled their own collective fancies. London would have none of this. After all, marketing is about focus and
accessibility, not flights of fancy and self-gratification.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The
problem, it seemed, was one of art versus commerce. Meat Puppets wanted to make art (that might
sell product), London Records wanted to sell product (they may or may not be
art). But the bottom line, being
employees of a major label, was that Meat Puppets would now have to view
success not solely in artistic terms, but instead “view things in terms of
success or failure on a financial level, which we never really had to do
before” (Cris, personal interview). And
the financial level they were being asked to aim for was much greater than
anything they had achieved previously.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We’re
talking’ about, even the Metro [in Chicago] would only hold, say, 500 or 600
people. And you can’t be setting your
sites that low. You have to be lookin’
to shows for, like, 30,000 or more if you want to be big. (Derrick, personal
interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It wasn’t
that the band was against selling records or playing larger venues, it’s just
that making art and commerce come together came as a new challenge in their
career. As stated by Cris:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I’m not
averse to selling a bunch more records.
But it doesn’t drive me crazy or anything. It never has.
The goal never was to only sell records.
It was to have a band and to be able to make music for a long time. It was never something I wanted to get into
and cash in on. It’s just one of the
only things I found that interested me, making music. And that doesn’t mean being a rock star. It’s playing the music and trying to make the
two align. It’s an interesting sort of
conundrum. (personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Indeed, continues Cris,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I’d love to be huge. The gear that would come with it. All the little toys that you could get. Being huge to me means unlimited supply of
tape. I could really lose myself to what
I really love. (personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The
problem, again, was that Meat Puppets saw themselves as artists first,
commercial artists second.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bands like us who get into it mostly for music
have a harder time breaking through than people who are more oriented toward
the business. (Derrick, personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">They
were hard to sell because, as Derrick states,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">our music
is uncommercial at its core. We don’t
even care about what it sounds like. We
just care about how it fits together in the connection to our brain while we’re
actually doing it. (personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Cris
concurred with this sentiment when he said that “we’ve always been willing to
make music without anybody getting it.”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> At the same time, Cris and Derrick both
felt that Meat Puppets’ music was accessible to a general audience. It wasn’t so esoteric that they couldn’t be
sold. Indeed, people did buy their
records and go to their shows.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We
basically feel that what we do, what we’ve always done, people can like. We don’t consider ourselves to be
inaccessible. We never thought that our
stuff was that far out. (Derrick, personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 12.0pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We do fill
the Metro up fairly good with people that can dig our trip. We’re not that far out or anything. (Cris,
personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Along with their feelings that their band
was at least moderately accessible, Cris and Derrick also recognized that their
involvement in Meat Puppets was a career choice. This was how they and, importantly, Curt and
his kids, made economic ends meet.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 1.0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Curt has a
couple of kids that are almost ten. You
have to start thinking about that. When
you’re a kid it’s like “Pile in the van, let’s go to the next gig. How much you wanna pay me? $10?
Great!” But you start to get
older and you get more responsibilities and you have to think about it.
(Derrick, personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Cris
again concurs, “</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">For my brother’s kids, I would like us to be more
popular” (personal interview). He just
wasn’t sure at this point in the band’s career that they knew how to make fully
accessible commercial music, he wasn’t sure Curt could write a mainstream hit.</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And what I
think about them asking us to write hit songs is that I know my brother, who’s
our main song writer, is a really unique and strong artist. But I don’t know how good he’s gonna be at
taking his talent and imitating Bon Jovi with it. (personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The
answer to the stalemate between Meat Puppets’ artistic ambitions and London’s
marketing strategy, it turns out, was Nirvana and the suddenly hot alternative genre. Once a marketing category arose the label
could, in a isomorphic fashion, push Meat Puppets as a band that was like
something else. They were an alternative
band.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">They saw
all that alternative shit getting popular and they were like “Alternative!” A name had arisen for it. (Cris, personal
interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Cris, seeing the big picture of how business works,
of how marketing genres come and go (and, consequently, how Meat Puppets
eclectic style can only fit into a particular genre moment for a moment), recognized
alternative for what it was, “ punk rock finally coming to the surface. It’ll be gone in a couple years. And what will be next? Booger rock?” (personal interview).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> In
looking at Nirvana and alternative rock in 1993, Cris made a distinction between
the real thing (bands that had walked the same indie path as Meat Puppets) and
newer, seemingly more surface oriented bands.
His criteria for the Buttholes Surfers being a deserving band as opposed
to some others seems to be (A) his personal relationship with the band’s
members and (b) a certain level of talent and creativity.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">God, please
let the Buttholes imitate Nirvana enough on this new record to sell a cajillion
copies. ‘Cuz they’re sweet people and
I’d love to see them make a lot of money, ‘cuz all of them have more talent,
and more fuckin’ open-mindedness which, to me, equals talent to a degree, and
more fuckin’ humor and a broader consideration of everything than 99% of the
shit that’s on MTV. (personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Cris
voices some of his band’s frustrations and his own bitterness toward Nirvana’s
success and the rise of alternative in suggesting that these new bands were
well thought out and isomorphically packaged , as opposed to Meat Puppets who,
as artists, were a messy package of truly alternative music. To start, he suggests that Nirvana are<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">students of
punk rock. You just distill out all the
best elements of it, and it’s already getting more and more popular anyways,
and you put on some cute little beads and some torn jeans and a jacket and you
make it obvious how to get to it. (personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Cris
went on to say that, although he liked Nirvana, he also recognized them as
being a careful pop group that put out a careful record and played a “safe live
show.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> My point
here is not to air Cris and Derrick’s dirty laundry from 1993. It is only to show how they felt about the
situation their band was in. Meat
Puppets was a critically acclaimed, musically adept, hard rocking band that
London Records couldn’t figure-out how to sell.
Then came Nirvana. Then came
grunge. Then came alternative.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">All of a sudden there was this new kind of hard rock which made
dinosaurs out of just about everybody that was signed, that wasn’t wearing a
punk rock sort of look and playing a little more aggressively. Suddenly this is the new thing, grunge or
alternative. (Curt, personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Seattle became cool, a
certain look (“cute little beads and torn jeans” says Cris) and sound (“a new
kind of hard rock”) was selling. “All
these things started adding up,” says Curt.
“You could at that point say ‘Nirvana’ and it would turn heads.”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 150.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> But, again, Meat Puppets didn’t see themselves as a grunge
band. They may have had some grunge
elements, but they saw themselves as much more.
Yet they were committed to a major label path. They were committed to the challenge of
selling records to a larger audience then they had before. In this respect, they were committed to
playing London’s marketing game, to being a grunge band. “We were going to need to fit into a grunge
bag,” says Derrick,” and “we were forced to play to this grunge audience”
(personal interview).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Specifics Leading Up to the Record<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> </span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It was within
this context of ambiguity as to how to market the band and, ultimately, selling
them as an alternative/grunge band, that Meat Puppets second album for London
Records, <i>Too High to Die</i>, came to be
made. In this section of the chapter I
describe in more detail the details by which London gave the band a green light
to make the record.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> In the dog days between making <i>Forbidden Places</i> and the recording of
what would become <i>Too High to Die</i>,
Meat Puppets were running out of money.
They toured the first half of 1992 and were ready to make a record, but
London didn’t think they were. Rather
than accepting and releasing whatever the band gave them, as had happened on
SST, London would actively reject many of the demos Meat Puppets would send
them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">There’s a lot
of songs that are written, and once the songs are written the label generally
won’t accept the first ten. We like to
go in and record. On SST we’d get ten
songs that we liked and then we’d go into the studio and record them and that
would be that. London wants us to write
three times that many songs so that there can be lots to choose from. (Derrick,
personal interview, ‘93)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Or, as Cris put it, “They control you more by denial rather than
trying to make you do shit” (personal interview, ’93). The band was doing what they always did,
making music, and weren’t being allowed to release it on record and, thus, were
not making any money. They found
themselves in a situation in which they were trying to please the label, but
the label wasn’t pleased.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The frustration of
not getting to do what they wanted to do, of being on a label they felt wasn’t
supporting their aspirations, led at least Cris and Derrick to have a bit of a
defeatist attitude towards it all. Going
back to 1993, both of these Meat Puppets told me they weren’t confident that
London was the right label for them.
Indeed, according to Cris, the gap between what the two entities wanted
became so wide at one point that the band almost left London Records:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We almost
got dropped. We just got sick of
them. We almost dropped ourselves. Just like, “You guys don’t get it. You don’t want to try to get it. Go die.
We don’t care. We’ll find
somebody that does.” (personal interview, ’93)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Derrick
reiterated Cris’s sentiment in equally adamant terms:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Great. Let them drop us. Who gives a shit? If that’s what it’s all about, fuck ‘em. I don’t give a damn. (personal interview,
’93)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Meat Puppets were on the back burner at
London Records after the weak market showing of <i>Forbidden Places</i>. But in
lieu of leaving the label, they took what was given them and that was to hire
professional management, find an A&R person that both band and label were
comfortable with, hire professional tour management (who took a significant
chunk of the band’s tour receipts), and tour (with minimal financial support
from the label). By the end of 1992 the
band members were hurting for cash and this, of course, played into the label’s
hands: <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“Suddenly,
here’s this band that’s been this pillar of fuckin’ idealism and ‘do it your
own way’ being shoved around by the one stick that everybody gets shoved around
by — financial,” Cris said. In effect, he felt the band was being told, “You
can’t do your work at all. You can sit at home, or I hope you like your
Circle-K job.” (A & I, 163-67)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> But the
band was determined to succeed; they always had been. Says Derrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">We were committed because that’s all we did. We had committed to the path we were taking
being three very strong-willed people.
And it’s the same thing with sports teams who go for like the World
Series or the Stanley Cup. They don’t
take their eyes off of the prize. And so
that’s what we did. We kept at it.
(personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> One thing the band did in the Fall of 1992 was record a couple
of songs with Tom Werman, a producer who had scored big hits in the 1970s and
‘80s with the likes of Ted Nugent and Cheap Trick. In September they recorded “Things” (a different
version of which made it on to <i>Too High
to Die</i>) and a song called “Animal” (versions of which were released on a
five-song London Records promo CD and featured on two movies, 1994’s <i>Love and a .45</i> and 1995’s <i>White Man’s Burden</i>). However, for reasons Curt says he can’t
recall, London didn’t like these demos:
“It didn’t really pan out. The record
company didn’t like it” (personal interview).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> By the end of ‘92 the interested parties found A&R, and a
compatible vision, that they both could work with and Meat Puppets went into a
Phoenix studio with a local engineer and recorded a demo.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Once we finally got somebody in place who we were comfortable
with, who they were comfortable with, who was in the position to reach the
compromise that needed to be made and give enough assurances both to us and to
them, we were able to get approval to make a demo, and we made a demo for <i>Too High to Die</i> in January of ’93. (Derrick,
personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">But the logjam didn’t end
with this demo. For one thing, according
to Derrick, the band went “way over budget” on the demos, which they spent a
week recording. This, he says, led to a
“bone of contention” with the label.
Most important from the label’s standpoint was the lack of an obvious
radio friendly single in the demos. They
didn’t much like the sound of the original demos so they asked the band to
rerecord a few of them: “Until they were
certain that they heard a single that they liked, they wouldn’t give us the go
ahead to write the record” (Derrick, personal interview).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> London explored a few different marketing angles with the band in
these days. One was to push them as a
novelty band. In particular they had the
band record one song four times, a song the band adamantly insisted was not to
be taken seriously, at least not as a single.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">We had this one song which was kind of a joke song, that was
designed to be a parody of other bands, and it got sent to them as part of the
usual submission of demos process, and they didn’t get that it was a joke. They just heard that it sounded like other
bands. And we were like, “We’re not
doing that song. It’s a parody of our contemporaries.” They made us do the song like four times
before they finally gave up. (Derrick, personal interview).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Cris recalls this as a song that
Derrick wrote called “Don’t Touch My Stuff.” <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“(W)e
recorded this song called ‘Don’t Touch My Stuff,’ with Derrick singing and
playing guitar,” Cris said. “It’s a song that Derrick had written, who hadn’t
written anything in years. He wrote this thing on a lark, and it was funny. He
couched it in all this antimilitaristic cartoon drivel, that Derrick is wont to
slant things as. It had this Nirvana kind of feel to it, like ‘Teen Spirit.’ It
could have been on the record as a little Derrick song, but not as the fuckin’
single. (A&I 165, 1995)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Pushing Meat Puppets as a novelty act,
of course, didn’t sit well with Curt, Cris, and Derrick who thought of
themselves as serious artists.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“They
wanted to push us as a joke, just like they pushed that song ‘Sam’ off the
[previous] record. Like, ‘Oh, wow, listen! They sing fast!’ Well, yeah, but
we’ve also got 15 years of musical history. What about us as a fuckin’ band?
How about that shit that we actually do? I mean, if we were, I don’t know, the
Dead Milkmen or something, it’d be one thing. But we’re not, you know?” (Cris,
A&I 165, 1995)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> When
it became apparent that the novelty act angle wasn’t going to work, and with
the band’s manager pressuring the label to let them get to work (they needed
money), marketing Plan B was implemented: They were like, "Maybe we'll put out an EP of some of your older stuff done accoustically. We'll put it out on our indie imprint there at London, and not spend any money." That would have been in the Spring of '93. We were, "Okay, that's what that is. This is what they're giving us." (Curt, personal interview, 2012).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Plan B, have Meat Puppets record
some of their “classic” older material acoustically and put it out on a smaller
imprint of an already smaller imprint label.
Band members were mixed in their enthusiasm for this project. On one end, Derrick felt “We’re screwed”
(personal interview 2012). To him it
seemed to signal a dead end, the label was throwing in the towel and marketing
the band as an oldies act. At least one
other band member agreed with Derrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: 203.25pt;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“They
asked us to re-record our old crap, said Cris, indicating that the band was
fairly flabbergasted by the absurdity of this request. “They wanted us to do <i>Up On The Sun</i>, all acoustic. And we were
like, ‘Oh, okay, so you’re gonna sell us as an oldies act? Whatever.’ It didn’t
matter how we felt about it. We were broke and up against the wall. (A&I,
163, 1995).</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 126.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Curt, on the other hand,
went along with the idea more willingly.
Indeed, he seems to give some credit to the executives at London for
their prescience.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 126.75pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I thought it was a pretty cool idea to do these acoustic things,
and they wound up later that year getting recorded by Nirvana, and they didn’t
have any idea we were doing acoustic versions of those things. So maybe there was something to the record
label’s thing. (personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 203.25pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> It was during this time, in early 1993, that the band and label
were still looking for someone to produce the next record. The band was suggesting all sorts of people
who had produced their favorite records, people who produced Neil Young and
Lynyrd Skynyrd, producers who had recorded platinum records. But the label, inevitably caught by the
gravity of isomorphism, was looking for someone “cool,” someone with
punk/indie/alternative credibility. Into
this void stepped Paul Leary, guitarist for Butthole Surfers, a band with
unquestioningly solid punk and indie credentials.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And
they were tellin’ me about it, and I just said in passing, ‘Well, hell, why
don’t you let me do it?’ And they went, ‘Okay!’ I fooled somebody into thinkin’
I was cool.” (Paul Leary, A&I 164, 1995).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Not
only was Paul indie cool, he and the members of Meat Puppets were close
personal friends dating back a decade or more.
Additionally, Paul had a fair amount of studio experience that Cris, at
least, was impressed with.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Paul had been into studio shit, into
the actual gear, how it worked. He got
so into it. I remember this one time, they
had a neat little house and they were putting a studio together and we go in
there and there’s Paul doing all the welding on a patch bay. (Cris, personal
interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Paul had also recently
finished producing the Bad Livers’ debut <i>Delusions
of Banjer</i> (Quarterstick, 1992), which Curt and Cris both liked.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> So Curt and Paul had been discussing the
possibility of working together. In
March of 1993 Curt, Cris, and Derrick attended the Butthole Surfers’ album
release party for <i>Independent Worm Saloon</i>
at the annual South by Southwest music festival in Austin, Texas. It was here that Paul agreed to produce the
band’s acoustic record.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> So
in the Spring of 1993 Meat Puppets and Paul Leary met up in Memphis at The
Warehouse recording studio. As Curt
remembers it they recorded acoustic versions a few songs including “Lake of
Fire” and “Plateau.” At some point in
the sessions, however, the band decided to record some fully electric rock ‘n’
roll, for fun if nothing else. One of
these songs was “Fuck You,” a song written by Arizona/California band the
Feederz. Meat Puppets included “Fuck
You” as part of a set of demos that included their acoustic songs as well. A full-on psychedelic rocker, London agreed
to scrap the acoustic sessions in favor of a full-length electric rock album
after hearing “Fuck You,” with Leary and Meat Puppets as co-producers.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Owner/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Meat%20Puppets/Meat%20Puppets%20Lyrics%20Book/Blogged%20Chapters/Too%20High%20to%20Die.docx#_edn1" name="_ednref1" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="color: #333333; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%;">[i]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The
Record<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Before
getting down to work in the studio, however, Meat Puppets went out on tour with
Soul Asylum who were touring on their hit record, <i>Grave Dancers Union</i>. Curt
liked this as it seemed to provide a natural sort of break between the now
aborted acoustic record and the now schedule full-on electric rock record. He liked the laid back environment of working
at The Warehouse in Memphis, too, which is where it was decided that the album
would be recorded.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">We were able to inhabit the place a
little bit more. I wasn’t uncomfortable
at Capitol, I was just minding my own business cuz in the other room there’s
Donna Summer. (personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Cris corroborates
Curt’s assertion that The Warehouse in Memphis provided a more relaxed
atmosphere for recording than what they had experienced a few years earlier in
Hollywood, with one exception.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I was staying right out on the mighty Miss, in an extend-a-stay kind
of thing, kind of a slightly beat-upish looking one, but with our balcony
overlooking the river. And the studio
itself was in an old converted cotton warehouse. So a big old building with big old wooden
beams and a couple of studios in there, and the whole time we were doing it in
the ‘B’ studio, there were these Memphis rappers who were like, you know, I
mean rap. The urban black
experience. There was some fucking hard-core
kids in there. It was like, “Alrighty
then. You kids aren’t just rapping about
guns, you have them.” (Cris, personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Curt, however, suggests that the
band’s relationship with the rappers was congenial to the point of playing basketball
together.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">There was more rap, the Bar-Kays were in one room. In the others were local dudes, rappers, like
Al Kapone and his posse, Skinny Pimp, and 211. We would play basketball with these guys, play
a lot of ping pong, lots of basketball because they have basketball
inside. It was an old cotton warehouse
so the main area was this warehouse, and then the partitioned off studio
spaces, but the main area was vast so you could play basketball in there.
(Curt, personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> Another
advantage to being in Memphis with Paul at the helm was the lack of direct
label supervision. The band and Leary
were given money and told to make a record.
There was the occasional visit by Laurie Harbaugh, the A&R person
charged with mediating between the band and the label, ”So we had to be careful
and not look like we were wasting time” (Curt, personal interview, 2012).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> By
the time the band went into the studio to record <i>Too High to Die</i>, in May of 1993, Cris, Curt, and Derrick were
keenly aware that London Records would like them to make a grunge/alternative
album. And they weren’t necessarily
averse to the idea, either. They were,
after all, professional rock musicians trying to make a living doing what they loved. The key, of course, was to make the record
that they wanted while also pleasing the label executives. Curt, especially, was looking to make a Meat
Puppets’ record that would fit in with the current genre <i>du jour</i> without compromising his indie ethics: “I was definitely aware of what was being
played. And what could I do that
wouldn’t hurt my feelings to make that happen” (personal interview, 2012).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> The
answer the above quandary, for Curt, was AC/DC and 1970’s hard rock:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I saw how those productions were mirroring the basic setup that
AC/DC had done, or Deep Purple sort of stuff, seventies rock that we heard on
the radio a lot. And I was just like, “That’ll
be cool. That’ll work with this stuff.”
(personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">And Curt knew how that was done:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">You layer these rhythm guitars, you know, not too many of them
but definitely kind of pillar them on each side and make the drums and bass
heavy. Pretty simple stuff really. Putting a rhythm here, and here’s your lead,
kind of identical tracks, and splitting them for the rhythms and making it
loud. I just made it a heavier rock
album. (personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> The
result of a laidback studio, a producer who was practically a member of the
band, the lack of direct label supervision, and Curt figuring out how to make a
grunge/alternative record was, as Derrick puts it, “the best sessions we had
ever done” (Derrick, personal interview, 2012).
Cris agrees, saying, “The cool thing about <i>Too High to Die</i> is that it was completely the record that we wanted
to make” (Cris, personal interview, 2012).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> There
were eight months in between the recording of <i>To High to Die</i> and its release and the band kept busy by playing
live shows in and around Phoenix and touring, and London Records kept busy by
finding ways to market the record.
During this time there were a few events that led to what would end up
being Meat Puppets’ most successful commercial album. Two important things happened in October of
1993 that got the ball rolling. First,
the band played Wavefest, a one-day rock music festival put on by radio station
96Wave in Charleston, South Carolina that drew in the tens of thousands. And not only did they play Wavefest on
October 3, 1993, they headlined with Hootie and the Blowfish opening.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The record company got independent radio consultant types to
come down. And here’s where you start
seeing how the in-house thing works. They
outsource these people who have a reputation.
They get paid. They go back with
their endorsements to radio stations and go, “You should push this song.” They get paid for each station that adds it,
and they make a lot of money. They came
to that show and we blew it out so they hopped on to endorse what we were
doing. That was a big thing. (Curt,
personal interview 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Here, then, is where the label
starts to get behind the new album in a real way. Independent radio promotions people, hired by
the label to check out the band, gave a big thumbs up, telling London Records
that Meat Puppets were a band worth pushing.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> Serendipitusly,
one month before Wavefest, in September of ’93, Nirvana released the follow-up
to their smash-hit <i>Nevermind</i>, <i>In Utero</i>. Just as <i>Forbidden
Places</i> and <i>Nevermind </i>were
released within two months of each other, the bands’ next two albums were
released within four months of each other (this time, though, <i>In Utero </i>is released first). Meat Puppets and Nirvana’s paths cross again
right after Wavefest when Nirvana invites Meat Puppets to open a week’s worth
of concert dates on their tour. For this
tour Nirvana invited a number of their favorite bands, bands that had
undoubtedly been influences upon Nirvana, to open for them. Breeders, Half Japanese, Jawbreaker,
Mudhoney, and the standup comedian Bobcat Goldthwait each spent roughly a week
with Nirvana. Meat Puppets time began on
October 27 in Kalamazoo, Michigan and ended November 5 in Amherst, New York. This invitation to tour with Nirvana was
another sign for London Records that Meat Puppets might be a band worth
pushing. If the world’s most popular
rock band gave Meat Puppets a thumbs-up, then their fans might also chip in and
buy some records.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">What
comes after their stint on the Nirvana tour, however, elevates Meat Puppets to
full-push level. The stories about how
it happens vary a little, but they all suggest that during some after show
partying (A) Kurt Cobain asked Curt and Cris to teach him to play some of their
classic <i>Meat Puppets II</i> songs so he
could play them on Nirvana’s upcoming <i>MTV
Unplugged</i> special, but (B) Curt and Cris convinced Cobain that it would
work better for them to actually show up to the show and play the songs with
Nirvana. Cobain thought it was a great
idea. The songs were technically
challenging and he didn’t have a lot of free time to learn them, he would sing
and Curt, Cris, Krist Noveselic, and Dave Grohl would play. However it was arranged, rumor has it that
MTV wasn’t happy with Kurt’s choice of performers, Curt and Cris went on stage
with Nirvana and played three songs (“Plateau,” “Lake of Fire,” and “Oh, Me”)
on November 18. A month later, on
December 14, the show aired on MTV.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">A final
piece of the puzzle for London Records in deciding to embark on a full-on
marketing campaign for Meat Puppets’ new record was the discovery of a radio
friendly single, “Backwater.” The push
for the song as a single, according to Cris, began back in early October of ’93
at Wavefest, the show mentioned earlier at which some big wig radio promoters
caught the band’s show.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">These guys saw the set and said, “These guys are rockstars!” And they made the record company take another
look at us, made somebody else at the record company come and take a look at
the record. One of them heard
“Backwater” and decided that song was something. So they made that the single. (personal
interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“That started spreading a little
bit,” agrees Curt, “like, ‘Yeah, “Backwater”.’
That’s when our manager was like, ‘Oh, that’s radio ready’” (personal
interview, 2012). Derrick concurs:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in; tab-stops: .5in 58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Then they
started putting out “Backwater” to DJs and started getting feedback from
them. They liked it. And they began to call in their various and
sundry favors to get us airplay. (personal interview)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; tab-stops: .5in 58.5pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> And that was it. The combination of industry consultant types
pushing “Backwater,” a strong performance at Wavefest, and slots on Nirvana’s <i>In Utero</i> tour and <i>MTV Unplugged</i> sealed the deal.
London Records moved Meat Puppets’ new record to the top of their Spring
’94 promotion queue.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">All these things started adding
up. You could at that point say “Nirvana”
and it would turn heads. We had the
consultants on board and the promoters, and then everybody at the record
company in their kind of herd-like fashion was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s ok to go over here. The herd is going over here. You don’t want to be stuck out there by
yourself.” So by the time it came out in
January ’94 everybody was pretty into it. (Curt, personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> With a firm decision made to push the record,
London Records came up with a couple of promotional ideas that, in the first
instance, was unique for a Meat Puppets’ record and, in the second, rubbed the
band the wrong way. First, <i>Too High to Die </i>is the only Meat Puppets
record to this day that prominently features photographs of the band on its
cover. All other Meat Puppets’ records
feature pieces of art by the band or relatives of Curt, Cris, and Derrick. And though most of their records do have a
picture of the band somewhere on the cover or inner sleeve, the close-up
pink-tinted image of a dress-wearing Curt on this record smacks of an idea
whose genesis was at an administrative level higher than the band itself.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">While Curt
confirms this, that the label was against using an art piece for the cover, he
also says that he wasn’t upset by the labels request to use a photo. For one thing, the label, says Curt, “</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">spent an
arm and a leg on that session,” using Michael Halsband, a credentialed photographer
Curt would turn to again ten years later on his collaboration with Bud Gaugh
(Sublime) and Krist Novoselic (Nirvana) called Eyes Adrift. And while Curt remembers the dress wearing to
be Halsband’s idea, Cris says it was the band’s.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">That was us. That was us just farting around. That was a photo shoot we did up in
Sedona. They didn’t ask us to do that. That was just a photo shoot we had done
farting around with dresses on. (personal interview, 2012).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It was the record label’s idea,
though, says Cris, to tint the cover image pink.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Overall, though, as Curt
states, the band was okay with putting a photo on the record. After all, the band was allowed to choose the
final picture and the label was showing all signs that they would push this
record harder than any other Meat Puppets had released, and this commitment
showed in the professionalism of the photo shoot.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I didn’t really mind because
I was glad the record was coming out, and they let us pick the photo. We spent a lot of money. We spent probably a week shooting all around
Phoenix and then went up to Sedona. It
was definitely a whole shit load of pictures taken and some really cool stuff.
(personal interview, 2012).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> A
second promotional strategy employed by the label was to solicit testimonials
from prominent rockers of the time as to Meat Puppets’ influence upon
them. Pasted on the jewel box of every
new <i>Too High to Die</i> disc were the
following two quotes:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“THE MEAT PUPPETS GAVE ME A
COMOPLETELY DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARDS MUSIC—I OWE SO MUCH TO THEM.”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">--KURT COBAIN<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“THEY’RE MY FAVORITE
F**CKING BAND.”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">--DAVE PIRNER<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The purpose of quotes from Cobain
(Nirvana) and Pirner (Soul Asylum) was, of course, to promote Meat Puppets as
progenitors of alternative rock. London
put these testimonials on the record without consulting the band, and the band
wasn’t too happy about it but, as with their acquiescence to the album photo, at
this point they were committed to doing whatever the label thought was best to
market the band: “We were disgusted by
the label putting quotes from other artists on our records, but at that point
we were going to do whatever” (Derrick, personal interview , 2012). Curt sums it up well when he says that he
voiced his concern to the label, but was convinced it was in his band’s best
interest to play along:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I think that’s the only time
I ever said anything. I was like, “Oh
really. That’s so cheesy.”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And they were like,
“No. It’s just respect and don’t tell us
how to do our business.”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And I was like, “Oh I get
you. You’re trying to sell it.”
(personal interview, 2012)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div align="center" class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; text-align: center;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Others Say About the Record<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Meat
Puppets made the record they wanted <i>and</i>
they made some compromises with London in order to get their record to the
market and have it promoted at the highest levels. <i>Too
High to Die</i> was released on January 25, 1994. It was certified Gold nine months later and
is still the band’s best selling record.
As with most records that sell well, critical response to <i>Too High to Die</i> was mixed, more so than
any other record they had made.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 7.5pt; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> On
the positive side, there are many who consider <i>Too High to Die</i> to be a “perfect record” (http://performermag.com/2012/02/06/file-under-unjustly-fogotten-meat-puppets-too-high-to-die/)
and “the perfect album” (http://www.teenink.com/reviews/music_reviews/article/7185/Too-High-To-Die/). These are reviewers who judge the record on
its own terms, as opposed to comparing it to the band’s entire catalogue. Some consider it to be “almost flawless”
(http://www.epinions.com/review/musc_mu-124760/content_190394896004?sb=1),
having “very few flaws” (http://sputnikmusic.com/review/429/Meat-Puppets-Too-High-To-Die/)
with “not a bum note on the album” (http://performermag.com/2012/02/06/file-under-unjustly-fogotten-meat-puppets-too-high-to-die/). It’s “superb”
(http://www.warr.org/puppets.html), an “amazing feat”
(http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/meat_puppets/too_high_to_die/index.html),
and “epic” (http://www.teenink.com/reviews/music_reviews/article/7185/Too-High-To-Die/),
a record “No Modern Rock enthusiast should be without” (http://www.warr.org/puppets.html). One writer suggested the album’s
semi-precious nature when he wrote that, “I would just wig out if my copy was
lost or stolen. Nothing else, just completely flip” (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/meat_puppets/too_high_to_die/index.html).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> While some writers positively reviewed <i>Too High to Die</i> on its own merits,
others compared it to their output of the last thirteen years. For instance, Jed Leigh Mosenfelder writes
that the record is the band’s “most solid effort to date”
(http://www.warr.org/puppets.html), while another reviewer suggests <i>Too High to Die</i> is “the best work you’ll
ever hear out of the Meat Puppets” (http://www.epinions.com/review/musc_mu-124760/content_190394896004?sb=1). Finally, Benjamin Ricci tells us that the
album contains the bands “most listenable. . .songs to date” (http://performermag.com/2012/02/06/file-under-unjustly-fogotten-meat-puppets-too-high-to-die/).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> <i>Too
High to Die</i> also received its share of negative reviews, probably more so
than their other records because of its popularity. While some reviewers simply did not like much
of the record, calling it “real tripe” (http://www.warr.org/puppets.html), and
others didn’t like it because, well, “Alternative. Sucks.” and “</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">a band like the freakin’ Meat Puppets defines everything bad
about that broad genre” (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://metalexcess.com/2009/04/15/meat-puppets-too-high-to-die/</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">)</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> the most common criticism of the record seems to
stem from reviewers’ disappointment at its general lack of creative material, a
criticism that probably comes from the reviewers’ high expectations of the band’s
creativity based on its previous seven LPs.
Mark Prindle, for instance, writes that the album has “few surprises”
and is “generic” (http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm#forbidden) while
another writer suggests songs on the album are “formless” and draw on
“aimlessly” (http://www.epinions.com/review/musc_mu-124760/content_190394896004?sb=1). Again, it seems logical that many of these
negative reviews stem from the fact that the album sold many copies; it’s a
valid hypothesis that many of the reviewers had never heard of Meat Puppets
before <i>Nirvana Unplugged</i> and
“Backwater.” <i>C’est la vie</i>. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Some reviews mentioned Curt’s guitar
playing on <i>Too High to Die</i>. Curt’s guitar on the album is described as
“buzzing,” “moody and atmospheric,” “rugged and dark”
(http://www.epinions.com/review/musc_mu-124760/content_190394896004?sb=1),
“blistering”
(http://performermag.com/2012/02/06/file-under-unjustly-fogotten-meat-puppets-too-high-to-die/),
and “a guitar flavor that can’t be described” (http://www.teenink.com/reviews/music_reviews/article/7185/Too-High-To-Die/). But even Curt’s guitar suffers criticism on
this album. Mark Prindle states that the
record is full of “</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">(j)ust a
bunch of over-‘heroic’ guitar riffs that are okay, I suppose” (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm#forbidden</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> There
were still, of course, the usual jabs at Curt’s vocals, even though he took a
few voice lessons in preparation for the record. One reviewer, for instance, writes that the
song “Why?” might have worked, “if Curt could sing” (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.warr.org/puppets.html</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">), while another mentions how his vocals “rasp and crack
beyond forgiveness” (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.epinions.com/review/musc_mu-124760/content_190394896004?sb=1</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 7.5pt; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> As
per the discipline, reviewers did their best to fit <i>Too High to Die</i> into an already established and easily recognizable
genre. But it wasn’t easy to do. On the one hand, in line with the
contemporary popularity of grunge, the album is seen as a “competent
alternative album” (http://www.epinions.com/review/musc_mu-124760/content_190394896004?sb=1). On the other hand, numerous writers
recognized a definite country and/or folk element to the record. It is variously described as punk-country,
country rock, having a country twang, folk rock, folk pop, pseudo folk, it has
songs that “lean very much to the folk side”
(http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/meat_puppets/too_high_to_die/index.html)
with a folk harmony and folky twinge.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 7.5pt; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Finally,
some reviewers fell back upon the only solid, although admittedly general,
genre classification that any Meat Puppets’ record can accurately have,
“rock.” It is reviewed as solid rock,
terrific rock, hard rocking, having hard rock songs.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 7.5pt; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Some
reviewers point out the record’s commercial success, mentioning that it went
gold while others paid special attention to those testimonial stickers placed
on the CD jewel cases. Still others
focused on the influence that Meat Puppets’ appearance on <i>Nirvana Unplugged</i> had on the solid sales of <i>Too High to Die</i>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> “And then, God said ‘</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Let there be Backwate</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">r</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">’”</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> (http://www.epinions.com/review/musc_mu-124760/content_190394896004?sb=1). This statement represents a main focus of
many reviewers, “Backwater.” Almost
universally writers praised this song.
Some focused on its “beautiful guitar work” (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/meat_puppets/too_high_to_die/index.html),
while others mentioned its “super-trippy video” (http://performermag.com/2012/02/06/file-under-unjustly-fogotten-meat-puppets-too-high-to-die/). Whatever the focus, most reviewers liked
“Backwater.” Even Metal Misfit, from
metalexcess.com, the writer that mentions how much he hates alternative and how
Meat Puppets are a prime example of his hatred of alternative, states that
there is “</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">ONE positive thing
about this album, “Backwater” is a really good song.” (</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://metalexcess.com/2009/04/15/meat-puppets-too-high-to-die/</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">)</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> Despite the delays in making the record
and the frustrations Curt, Cris, and Derrick felt toward the executives at
London Records, all three Meat Puppets agree that <i>Too High to Die</i> was the record they wanted to make. Once the recording began they were largely
left alone. The studio and lodgings were
comfortable and they made the record with an old friend, Paul Leary. As already mentioned, a month before the
record’s release <i>Nirvana Unplugged </i>aired
on MTV. Shortly<i> </i>after this Kurt Cobain killed himself, no doubt influencing sales
of <i>Too High to Die</i> in a positive
direction. These events, combined with
tours with Stone Temple Pilots and Blind Melon and the radio success of
“Backwater” led to the best selling record of the band’s career. <i>Too
High to Die</i> went Gold in October, 1993.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> But success wasn’t all it was cracked up
to be. These same tours and the success
they engendered brought the band into contact with the dark side of rock and
roll groupies. After show parties were
filled with the worst kind of “fun,” and Cris chose to indulge wholeheartedly
in the omnipresent drug taking that accompanied them. It was during this time also that the
Kirkwood’s mother became seriously ill and, eventually, died. Cris was her main caretaker and her death hit
him hard. He chose even more drugs as
his companion in her wake.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> The ups and downs of these last couple
years of the original Meat Puppets are evident in their last record
together. Darkness, death, and “no fun”
permeate <i>No Joke!</i> like no other
record they made prior to or after. The
next chapter looks at these last turbulent months.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<br />
<div>
<!--[if !supportEndnotes]--><br clear="all" />
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<!--[endif]-->
<br />
<div id="edn1">
<div class="MsoEndnoteText">
<a href="file:///C:/Users/Owner/Desktop/Dr.%20Smith-Lahrman/Meat%20Puppets/Meat%20Puppets%20Lyrics%20Book/Blogged%20Chapters/Too%20High%20to%20Die.docx#_ednref1" name="_edn1" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[i]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a> <span style="font-family: "Courier New";">“Fuck You” didn’t make it on to <i>Too High to Die</i>, however it was released
as part of a promo single for “Backwater.” (London, 1993, CDP 1118)</span></div>
</div>
</div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-78037209874025093802015-01-08T20:32:00.000-07:002015-01-08T20:36:01.276-07:00"Forbidden Places": An Excised Piece from "The Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from "Meat Puppets II" to "No Joke!"<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<br />
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Forbidden Places</span></i></b></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden
Places</i>, Meat Puppets’ major label debut, was released in 1991 on London
Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were one of a generation
of punk/indie/alternative bands to have such a release.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The record is a typical mélange of styles that
the band had become known for:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>country,
heavy rock, psychedelic, breakneck instrumentals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But even before a contract was signed
frustrations presented themselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Breaking free from SST Records, for instance, turned out to be not as
easy as the band would’ve liked.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Additionally, extra layers of bureaucracy were imposed upon them from
the label.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally, a new way of
professional recording was introduced to the band, a way in which Curt,
especially, was required to step back and give up some of the studio control to
which he had become accustom.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The
Record</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Soon after their last
release on SST Records release, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>
(1989), the band began having negotiations with people at London Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>According to Curt, sometime in 1990 they
actually signed a contract to make records for the major label.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because of their fairly substantial producing
experience, the band and London agreed that Meat Puppets should make their
first album themselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This recording
method, after all, was from where their success thus far had come.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So they recorded two songs, “Forbidden
Places” and “This Day,” at Chaton Studios in Phoenix with Steve Escallier, a
studio and an engineer they had worked with before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>According to Derrick these demos were of
inferior quality compared to the band’s self-produced records they had made for
SST Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Accordingly, the executives
at London didn’t like it. "</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">That was
our entrance into this weird major-label thing,” says Curt. “They tricked us.
They hired us and said we could produce our own stuff. When we got there, they
were like, ‘Ha, ha.’” (A & I 197)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The rejection of this recording was a lesson learned
by the band of how things worked at the major label level.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>SST Records was completely uninvolved in the
making of Meat Puppets’ records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
band would make a record, hand it over to SST, and the label would release
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At London, however, things were a bit
different.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If the band made a record
that the executives at London didn’t like, the label wouldn’t release it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The band would need to learn how to make
records that both they and the label executives could agree upon.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It was decided that they would record at Capital
Studios in Hollywood, a studio with a storied history in the music
business.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Pete Anderson was picked to
produce the record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Somehow Anderson had
got wind that Meat Puppets were looking for a producer, and having met them
through his work (as guitarist and producer) with Dwight Yoakam (who had played
a gig or two with Meat Puppets some years earlier) proffered his services for
the project.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All agreed, and he was
hired on for the project.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Recording at a major studio with a major label budget
(Curt estimates they spent between $50,000 and $100,000 on the record) was a
new experience for the band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For Curt,
especially, relinquishing control over what he perceived to be his product was
difficult.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because of his stature as a
big time producer, one who knew his way around a studio, Curt didn’t question
decisions made by Pete Anderson.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This
was a first as Curt was used to producing his own records:</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="color: #322c40; letter-spacing: .25pt;"> "I work real hard on my craft, and it’s hard to work as much as you do on
it and then have other people come in and do more to it when you think you’re
done” (A&I 264).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt says he felt a
bit more like a worker in an organization rather than a creative artist while
making <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i>.</span></span>
</div>
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="color: #322c40; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; letter-spacing: .25pt; line-height: 200%;">Of the three Meat
Puppets, Cris, being someone who enjoys working in studios, seems to have
enjoyed the experience of recording <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden
Places</i> the most.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whereas Curt and
Derrick would come and go as they were needed in the studio, Cris was
constantly there, if not playing bass and singing, then watching Pete and
engineer Dusty Wakeman create a record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As for Curt and Derrick, the learning curve for Cris was steep, seeing
how major label bands make records was a paradigm shift for him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He tells the story of a moment when Anderson
felt some more percussion was needed on one of the songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The band naturally thought one of them would
do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After all, that’s the way they
had always made records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But Anderson
brought in a guest musician, a professional percussionist, Alex Neciosup-Acuña,
someone who unknowingly had played an important part in the Kirkwood brother’s
musical (and otherwise) coming of age.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Cris tells the following story:</span></div>
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The first time Curt and I smoked pot together was before this
Weather Report concert in Phoenix in’75, and who should be the drummer on that
gig but Alex Acuña.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I’m like, “How
cool.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The guy comes in and does the
shaker part completely spot on, one take.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That was definitely perfect.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
then he smells weed and he’s like, “Who’s got weed?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we have good weed, so we go get
stoned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I’m smoking pot with the
guy, and I tell him this story, that “the first time me and my brother ever
smoked pot together was one of your gigs in ’75 with Weather Report, and now
here you are playing on one of my records and getting stoned.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Charming. (personal interview)</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">All-in-all, Meat Puppets’ experienced the recording
of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i> as an exercise in
taking their craft to the next level, as they say.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it was also a bit intimidating for this
group of Phoenician stoners to be walking the hallways of a Hollywood studio
rubbing elbows with pop music royalty.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Curt says,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">We were at Capitol Studios, which was somewhat
intimidating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re in this amazing
studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lots of cool people have been in
there, right in the belly of the beast in Hollywood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We still had our little hiding place
area.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d just hang out and let the
stuff go on around us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Ok, time for
guitars,” and so we’d come out of the hiding place and do some guitar stuff.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">. . .</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I wasn’t uncomfortable at Capitol, I was just minding my own business
cuz in the other room there’s Donna Summer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>At one point Steven Seagal showed up with Kelly LeBrock, and across the
hall was Etta James. (personal interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It wasn’t
that Meat Puppets really held any ideological bent toward staying with SST
Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They would have made the move
to the majors earlier had the chance arose.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Indeed, in 1986 they had a meeting with Geffen Records executive Gary
Gersh, the man responsible for signing Nirvana a few years later.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He decided not to sign Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt and Cris like to tell the story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here’s the way Cris tells it back in 1993:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Years ago
we went into Geffen and talked to the guy, Gary Gersh, who sat there and told
us how he signed Gene Loves Jezebel without even hearing them play.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He just met the brothers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just by the way they looked.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And this is in like ’86.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we’re goin’, “That’s really nice
Gary.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s sittin’ in his socks in his
gajillion dollar office on Sunset and the Geffen Company which is just so
exciting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He tells us he doesn’t sign us
then ‘cuz we’re unfocused. (personal interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So at least from 1986 Meat Puppets were willing to
entertain the idea of leaving SST for a major label, and they had reasons for
doing so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>According to Derrick, at
least, the band wasn’t happy on SST:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“We
weren’t happy there and I don’t think we were treated fairly there” (personal
interview).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The main reason, it appears,
that the band wasn’t happy at SST was lack of distribution.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Derrick tells it, the band would be
touring with bands on major labels and,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We’d get
into these major market towns, Boston, New York, etc., and find out that our
opening band’s records were completely all over the record stores and the label
was stocking the stores and making sure the promotion materials were
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were doing lots of
interviews and lots of people were going to see them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we had real trouble, especially with our
last release.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we knew that there were
advantages that SST couldn’t have. (personal interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Curt
backs up Derrick’s claim:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I could definitely see how it’s hard to meet the supply and
demand on the indie label at that time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
weren’t seeing our records in stores as much as we’d like to and started to see
the difference there” (personal interview).</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Derrick
also suspected band favoritism at SST, a label owned by members of Black Flag,
an SST band:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“SST was owned by somebody
that was in a band that was on the label.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We always suspected that that band would get preferential treatment”
(personal interview).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick offers the
following as evidence of SST’s preferential treatment toward Black Flag:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">When we
toured with Black Flag, we both had a new record out at the same time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their records would be in the store and ours
wouldn’t be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>SST was obviously more
interested in pushing <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">My War</i> compared
to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>. (personal
interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Coupled with the band’s feelings of suspicion toward
SST was another reason for wanting to move to a major label, they were feeling
like they were outgrowing their hometown scene.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Derrick continues from his remarks about SST:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We’d come
off of a tour and find that most of our old scene bands were broken up, drug
abused, married, or dead, or drunk, or whatever. . . just basically moved along
in one way or another, and we were surviving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The next step was alienation from the scene that started us. (personal
interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Derrick’s
point here, I think, is that Meat Puppets were still around, but their Phoenix
punk rock scene, even the Los Angeles punk scene, in which they had begun had
evolved into a new scene, with new bands and clubs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By the mid-eighties Meat Puppets were a
playing within a national, even international, scene rather than a local
one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They felt the support personnel a
major label could muster could help them succeed in this larger scene more than
SST Records could.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick again,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We wanted
to sign with a major label so that we could get help doing these things, and
not have to do it on such a shoe string.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We needed to get a lot of our business practices straightened out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we hired professional management and
accounting and stuff like that to make sure we could be a more efficient
organization. (personal interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">After
all, this is what a career in the music industry meant, moving to higher
levels:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“If you don’t move on then
you’re stagnating.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Standing still is
still going backwards” (Derrick, personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Curt, Cris, and Derrick, then, were ready and
willing to embrace the support a major label could provide.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The record itself shows the willingness of
the band to play along with practices that purportedly make an album
marketable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The longest song on the
disc, for example, is four minutes long, the shortest is 3:04; perfect lengths
for “radio friendly” songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lyrically,
though still comfortably within Curt’s realm of psychedelia (hallucinations,
discomfort with reality), the songs on the album come close to making sense,
rather than being oblique.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also, there
aren’t any signature musical “meat puppet moments,” those spots on other recordings
where Curt takes fantastic extended guitar adventures.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These features of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i> make for a more audience friendly, accessible,
recording.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It isn’t a coincidence that
they chose to make an accessible recording for their major label debut.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Whirlpool” is a perfect example of Curt’s
attempt at commercially acceptable psychedelia.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It has a fairly accessible lyrical theme (anxiety about leaving our
comfort zone) and a dose of animated animalia and, with the main character,
animated water.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt’s psychedelic
guitar noises are here, too, but they are layered back in the mix and are
buttressed by the structure of the song as guitar solos.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Others
Say about <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The general critical consensus about <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i> is that it is a good,
if not great, album that was drowned in the grunge tsunami that washed ashore
in the wake of Nirvana’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Wilson and Allroy, for instance, suggest it
to be a “Nearly perfect” album that “Should have gone platinum!” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Wilson and Allroy</i>).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>John Rausch, on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Bondolik</i>, places <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden
Places</i> among Meat Puppets best when he writes that it is “One of the four
great Meat Puppet albums” that can “hold its own with any of the more
celebrated Meat Puppets albums” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Bondolik</i>).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As evidence that I’m not the only one who
recognized the significance of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i>
as Meat Puppets move from to the next level of the music industry, many writers
began their reviews by mentioning this as the band’s major label debut:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">First album
on a major record label. . .(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Wilson and
Allroy)</i></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">. . .their
first with a major record label. . .(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Bondolik</i>)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">London
Records is a major label, right?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If so,
this is the Meat Puppets’ major-label debut. . .(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Prindle</i>)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Others
wrote of Meat Puppets “leap to a major label” (A&I 48) and their “shift to
a major label” (A&I 299).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The move to a major label was rightly seen
as evidence of a band “apparently aiming for a more mainstream rock community”
(Satan), a band willingly leaving the artistically pure realms of indie and
punk rock for the now blossoming commercially profitable realm of alternative
rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Others, perhaps foreshadowing the
bands demise in the next four years, saw this move to the mainstream as “death
for a band that has built its reputation on going against the grain” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">A&I</i> 299).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As for the album itself, many writers
applauded the improved production that a major label budget and big-time
producer brought to the songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mark
Prindle writes of “production so great, they actually sound like a REAL BAND” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Prindle</i>).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is seen as an album that is “much slicker”
(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Bondolik</i>) than their more famous
earlier records like <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>
and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, that shows Pete
“Anderson’s influence” (A&I 162-63).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There were, of course, those who praised
Curt’s guitar work as “exceptional” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Satan</i>),
“accomplished” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Entertainment Weekly</i>),
and “awesome” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Prindle</i>), and even a
few who appreciated his new well-produced voice:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>he “shed the off-key singing for a more
comfortable listening experience” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Satan</i>),
he actually hit “all kinds of beautiful notes in a calm, friendly voice” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Prindle</i>), and, throwing Cris into the
mix, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i> “suggests that
the Kirkwoods may yet learn to sing” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rolling
Stone</i>).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There are those who criticized the
album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>John Chedsey, for instance, wrote
that much of the album is “red hot,” but when it’s not, it is “a complete lame
duck” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Satan</i>).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Others suggested the entire album is “tired
and unimaginative” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rough Guide</i>), and
David Fricke, writing in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Trouser Press
Guide to ‘90s Rock</i> calls it “so-so.”</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The consensus on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i>, however, is that it came out at the wrong time,
the moment of Nirvana.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As John Rausch
writes, “With all of America focusing on Seattle, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden Places</i> wend completely unnoticed” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Bondolik</i>) in “grunge mania” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">TP90</i>).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Greg Prato writes of how it got “lost in the
shuffle since it was released just prior to the Seattle explosion” (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">AMG</i>).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The result was a decent album that “was largely ignored” (A&I 3)
and, because “sales figures didn’t materialize” (A&I 162-63), “bombed”
(A&I 299).</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So Curt, Cris, and Derrick were happy with
the finished product that was <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forbidden
Places</i>, and so it seemed was London Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It had a good single, “Sam,” and a decent
enough video, “Sam,” too.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the record
flopped.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A big reason for this flop, I
contend, was the release of Nirvana’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>
just two months later.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Everything
changed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Grunge was in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>London (and all the other rock music labels,
for that matter) wanted a grunge band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They no longer wanted Meat Puppets to be their trippy self-indulgent
selves, they wanted an alternative friendly Curt, Cris, and Derrick.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The desire to put forth a more grungy Meat
Puppets led to delays in the recording and release of the band’s next record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Different producers were tried in different
places, for instance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Different projects
were started and stopped.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But then Kurt
Cobain publicly announced his fondness for the band, and Meat Puppets made a
demo or two that sounded awful grungy, and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too
High to Die</i> was given the green light.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In the next chapter I’ll discuss the making of the band’s second major
label release.</span></div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-6807862026138859822015-01-07T20:40:00.001-07:002015-01-07T20:43:16.995-07:00The Meat Puppets' Desert Trilogy: "Out My Way," "Mirage" and "Huevos": A Discarded Remnant from "The Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from "Meat Puppets II" to "No Joke!"<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">The
Desert Trilogy:<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Out My Way, Mirage, </i>and<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"> Huevos</i></span></b></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After a year of hard touring in support of
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, Meat Puppets recorded
and released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> in the Spring
of 1986, a six-song EP which was meant to be a stop-gap record, one which they
could tour on for a few months before recording a proper full-length follow-up
to their third LP.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A broken finger,
however, forced the band to take some time off in 1986 and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> had to stand on its own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In the Fall of ’86 and into the Spring of ’87 they recorded and released
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, a full-blown,
detail-oriented, studio album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Frustrated with their inability to play the songs from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> live, and with a host of new
live-friendly tunes written and ready, they turned right around and recorded
and released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> in the Fall of
’87; two full-length records in one year.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I put these records together in one
chapter because they have some important things in common.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First, all three were recorded in
Phoenix.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first time they had done
this, and they wouldn’t record in their hometown again until <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No Joke!</i> in 1995.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two of the three records (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>) were recorded at the same studio, and all three were recorded
by Steve Escallier, an engineer with big-name major label credentials.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Finally, artistically, these three records
are of a piece.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The first, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>, finds the band opening up
and extending the pop sensibilities that they first put down on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, but the songs on this
latter record feel more like jams than tight-knit pop songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage </i>is
the band’s psychedelic studio epic; a lot of time and effort were spent in the
studio getting the songs just right.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Finally, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> finds the band
at arguably their rocking best, playing live in the studio without too much
concern about technical or mechanical flaws.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The three records make-up a career transition trilogy taking them from
their classically naïve early period into their major label mainstream
careerist period.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 416.4pt;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Careerists<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Meat Puppets toured the U.S. hard after
the release of their third full-length record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, in March, 1985.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Upon coming home from touring it hit them, they were a working rock band
and needed to start acting like one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Furthermore, Curt was the father of toddling twins and the band was his
job, his way to support them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With this
careerist mindset front and center in their heads, Curt, Cris, and Derrick
dedicated themselves to working on the band not just as an art project, but as
a job.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They paid more attention, for
instance, to the business end of things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They rehearsed more often and got together every day even when not
rehearsing.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Importantly for their career legacy, one area of
their career that they consciously focused on improving was their live shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And improve they did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>From ’85-’87 or so, Meat Puppets went from
being a really good live act to a devastatingly good one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Dave Schools, bassist for Widespread Panic,
talks about seeing them around 1986 on “one of those raucous nights, where
there was slop rock, ridiculous covers, caterwauling, and blistering guitar
solos.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Trademark Meat Puppets” (Prato
2013, p. 133).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Similarly, Troy Meiss
(future second guitarist with the band) remembers seeing them about a year
later on “one of those nights that was a total foray into beautiful depravity
and debauchery” (Prato 2013, pp. 152-53).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">By 1986, with five years of constant touring, one
EP, and three LPs under their belts, Curt, Cris, and Derrick were brimming with
confidence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II </i>and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the
Sun</i> both received high critical accolades and the audiences at their live
shows had, according to one observer, tripled in size (Prato 2012, p. 131).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were a band that, in the face of rave
critical success and decent commercial success (for an indie label band), were
entering a career phase in which they knew what they wanted (artistically,
anyway) and knew how to go about getting it.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Meat Puppets had a plan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They wanted to keep touring and playing live;
after all, they were becoming very good at it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But they also knew that professional rock bands made a record a year and
they now definitely saw themselves as a professional rock band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their plan was to release an EP to assuage
the critics, tour for a few months to satisfy themselves and their fans, and
then record an LP.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Another part of the
plan was that these things would be done in a way that would enable Curt to be
as involved of a father as he could.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They
would also break from SST Records tradition and make the records themselves, selecting
their own studios and engineers, and produce the records themselves. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They decided to forsake recording in
California and find a studio and recording engineer in their hometown of
Phoenix.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Enacting the above mentioned plan, Meat Puppets
booked time at Chaton Studio in Paradise Valley, Arizona, in March, 1986, using
“major label” recording engineer Steve Escallier to run the boards.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My
Way</i> was released soon after, in Spring 1986.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, while touring for the record a
roadie shut Curt’s finger in the van door, breaking it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The band’s plan was derailed, at least until
Curt’s finger could heal.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Curt kept busy during the band’s time off from
touring by writing songs and acquiring new electronic gadgets for use in the
studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And by the fall of 1986 he had a
host of songs ready to record (two albums worth, as it would turn out).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Once again they would use Chaton Studio in
Paradise Valley and once again they hired Steve Escallier as engineer, this
time giving him co-production credits on the back album cover.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, they would spend as much time making
this record as they would on virtually any album before or since, spending time
in Chaton through the early spring of 1987.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> was released in April,
1987.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The band members found the heavily produced songs
from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> hard to play live, and
since they still had an album worth of unrecorded songs, they went back into
the studio a mere six months after recording <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> to record its follow-up, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Recorded and mixed in just five days in
August, 1987, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> is a ZZ Top
influenced fun-to-play-live record that found Meat Puppets back to their
loose-rocking selves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Following in-step
with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, Steve Escallier was again
employed to record <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>, but this
time they chose Pantheon Studios (though still in Paradise Valley) over Chaton.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Huevos</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> capped an
important stage in the history of Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was a stage in which the band took full control of their career, both
artistically and commercially.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They made
three records which, artistically, found them exploring terrains they had yet
to explore:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>fine-tuned noodle-jamming on
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>, extremely focused studio
manipulation on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, and
straight-out live recorded boogie rock on<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">
Huevos</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>From a business perspective
they made these records the way they wanted, in Phoenix in their own time.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Unfortunately for the band, the desert trilogy of
records didn’t go over too well artistically or commercially.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Whereas their fan base expanded exponentially
from <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II </i>up through <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>, after this they seemed to
hit a commercial ceiling; their records were selling at a steady but not
increasing rate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As I’ll show a bit
later, they even began to lose a few fans during this period, at least in the
record market (their live shows would continue to draw decent though, again,
not necessarily increasing crowds).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Critically, these three records drew, for the first time, mixed
reviews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because the band chose to make
records that they wanted to make rather than following some sorts of market
trends, the critics didn’t know what to think, they seemed confused.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some critics found the records bad and
self-indulgent, others found them self-indulgent and artistically
brilliant.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Others just lost interest.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The writing was on the wall.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If Meat Puppets wanted to be a viable mainstream
commercial success they would have to leave the indie rock world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After the desert trilogy they would release
one more album, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>, on SST
Records (though they would try to get it to the majors) and then jump ship to
boats on bigger oceans.</span></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Out My Way</span></i></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As mentioned, coming
off the success of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>
and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, Curt, Cris, and
Derrick had a plan; a professional plan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were now a band with a career, and they were going to act like
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had been touring hard
throughout 1985 and early ’86, wanted some new songs to tour on, but hadn’t had
time to put enough together for a full LP.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Instead, they thought, they would record and release and EP, tour for a
couple more months while gathering more original material, and then record and
release an LP.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For step one, the EP,
they booked time in March at Chaton Studio, “a converted guest house behind the
home of a wealthy Paradise Valley couple” (Derrick Blog, 2012).<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span></span></span></a><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was also the first record they recorded
with Steve Escallier as engineer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Escallier
was a relatively high-profile engineer at the time having worked in various
capacities on albums by the likes of the Doors to Cheech and Chong, Burt
Bacharach to the Grateful Dead, and Glen Campbell to Alice Cooper.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But, according to a current website from a
studio at which he now works, Escallier has always had a passion for recording
“aspiring new artists” (http://www.qualityrecordinghawaii.com/engineer.html).</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Two factors played an
important role in the band choosing to stay in Phoenix to record the record and
to use an engineer outside of Spot at SST Records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First and foremost was that Curt had his
hands full raising twin toddlers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Staying close to home, of course, allowed him maximum father time (at
least as much as a person who tours for a career can have).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Second, the band decided to take things into
their own hands, to do it themselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They chose the studio, they chose the engineer, they chose the time
frame for recording the record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
short, the members of Meat Puppets chose to take control of their careers.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In spite of their DIY
and punk pretensions and history, choosing Escallier to engineer shows that the
members of Meat Puppets had mainstream aspirations and were looking for ways to
break out of the indie world and into the popular rock world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To this end the band put a lot of time into
the recording and into other band (live shows, business aspects)
activities.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt says that he continued
to progress in his understanding of studio techniques, and on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> he figured-out how to make a
“live sounding” studio record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For his
part, says Derrick, he used a click-track in the studio for the first time;
this being a nod to the creation of a more professional sounding record.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As for the record
itself, Derrick suggests on his blog that the songs were technically
difficult.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The fact that Cris and Curt
play so well on the album, he writes, shows how they were becoming top-rate
rock musicians.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick, on the other
hand, says that he never really warmed-up t the songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>None-the-less, the record showed, to the band
members themselves if to no one else, that they could conjure the discipline it
takes to make a professional record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
the end, writes Derrick, Curt and Cris were proud of the record, Derrick was
“perplexed” (Bostrom blog, 2012).</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Looking back, Curt
says, the band knew that the record wouldn’t sell.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For one thing, the loping country funk of an
album with songs that all clocked-in at over four minutes (except for “Good
Golly Miss Molly”) wasn’t really radio-friendly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Furthermore, being on SST and making the
record themselves meant little to no label push would be behind the album;
radio stations, the driving force behind record sales at the time, probably
didn’t know it even existed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This, of
course, was artistically liberating for Curt in his songwriting and
arranging.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He could make a professional
sounding record that sounded like he wanted, without concern that they would
have to please label executives whose interests were on the bottom-line of
financial success.</span></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Others
Say</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For whatever reasons,
it seems a number of Meat Puppets fans stopped paying attention to their
records after the incredible one-two punch of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the
Sun</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Prato quotes a few people in
his book, including Flea of the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Paul Leary of
Butthole Surfers (who would co-produce a couple Meat Puppets records in the
early nineties), who say they simply stopped listening after those two
records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick also mentions that as
the three records that make-up the desert trilogy came out it became apparent
that they had hit a plateau in record sales.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Even with the
commercial eddy that Meat Puppets hit after <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II </i>and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, reviews
of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> are generally positive,
glowing even.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Trouser Press</i>, for example, calls it “superior” (T.P.).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Wilson
and Allroy</i> praise its “brilliant tunes” and suggest the only weakness on
the record is that it is “too short” (w&a), and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Brooklyn Rocks</i> says there “isn’t a bum track on the disc” (BR).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A general consensus also emerges in the
reviews of the record’s diverse collection of songs and that it is an album
that was like nothing Meat Puppets had done before. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This had become a regular comment about the
band by this point, and it would follow the band for the rest of their
career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Meat Puppets were a band that
constantly changed genres and sounds, not only from album to album, but from
song to song within an album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Genres
identified on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> included
punk, traditional rock, ZZ Top, pop rock, hippy music, John Fogerty, cow punk,
high-speed fifties rock, sped-up country, straight forward seventies country
rock, funk, and psychedelia, all within six songs!</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There were almost no
negative reviews save Mark Prindle’s comment that the album consisted of “bad
songwriting.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the same review,
however, Prindle points out the album’s “terrific guitars” and “strong mix”
while saying that it sounds “confident and professional.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>An interesting focus
of virtually every review of the record had to do with its final cut, a
punked-up version of the Little Richard classic “Good Golly Miss Molly.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Long included in their live sets, Derrick
suggests that this song was added-on to the record as “a tacit admission to the
paucity of our offerings” (Derrick blog); they needed something more to
fill-out the record (even to just make it into an EP).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For whatever reason, probably because its’
frenetic freak-out pace stood in stark contrast to the more bucolic feel of the
other five songs, “Good Golly Miss Molly” drew the attention of the
critics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>While Mark Prindle felt that
the song was, well, “bad,” and the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rolling
Stone Album Guide</i> referred to it as “pure gimmickry,” others gave it a more
favorable review.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">All Music Guide</i> called it “explosive”
while <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Wilson and Allroy</i> say it is
“hilarious,” and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Trouser Press</i>
labeled it a “crazed rave-up.”<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span></span></span></a></span></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Mirage</span></i></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With Curt’s finger healed the band once
again took up residency at Chaton Studio, once again employing Stever Escallier
as engineer, although on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> (as
well as on the next one, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>)
Escallier is given co-producer as well as engineering credit whereas on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> he only receives the latter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This time around they would take their time,
spending three months in the Winter of ’86-’87 making the record, about as much
time as they would spend on any record before or since.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The result was what Curt calls a “pure studio
album” and Derrick has alternately referred to as the band’s “psychedelic epic”
and, in reference to the Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys class, their <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Pet Sounds</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 355.9pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Staying in Phoenix to record <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> once again allowed Curt to engage
in his fathering duties as well as allowed Cris and Derrick a bit of rest from
touring.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It also allowed the band to be
more meticulous in the production of the record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In his time off from touring Curt wrote a lot
of new songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indeed, as we’ll see, too
many to put on one record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So Curt and
the band had to choose which songs to put on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> and which to leave off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Also, Curt brought in a Roland Guitar Synthesizer for the record while
Derrick had a new set of Midi drums.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New
gadgets meant new sounds, but also meant time had to be taken to figure-out how
to best utilize them.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One thing is certain, at this point in
time Meat Puppets were formidable musicians with boundless imaginations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They did want commercial success but they had
no interest in recreating their earlier, critically acclaimed records in the
name of future sales.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This combination
of exceptional musicianship, time off of the road to heal, and a lot of time in
the studio resulted in a thickly-layered, musically dense record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The result was a curveball of a record that soured
some of the band’s fans.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Record sales
didn’t increase as they’d hoped (something that would indicate a career on the
upswing rather than flat lined).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Overall, however, consistent with their “be true to thyself” artistic
spirit, Curt and Cris were proud of the record while Derrick, on the other hand
felt it was “flawed,” a career misstep.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Nevertheless, writes Derrick in his blog,
the band hunkered-down.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They worked
harder on their live show during this period.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They rehearsed more.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick, who
was starting to feel tired both toward the end of individual shows and as tours
drew on for weeks on end, started exercising, doing aerobics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt, Cris, and Derrick got together every
day, sometimes rehearsing, sometimes focusing on band business.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If they were going to be professional then
they were going to have to act professional.</span></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Others Say</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 355.9pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For the most part, those who’ve written
about <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> like it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At the time when it was released, based upon
the one available review of the record from 1987,<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span></span></span></a> Joe Sasfy wrote that it is
their finest record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Significantly, he
highlights the typically wide-range of styles on the record, not as detracting
and unfocused, but as a positive, as something of their own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In a good way, the record “doesn’t resolve
the confusion” evident in their first four records, it “doesn’t tie up loose
ends.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, wrote Sasfy, is “real psychedelia” reminiscent of “Hendrix
at his most sensual.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Criticisms leveled at the record are of a
few sorts:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>production, songwriting, and
vocals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mark Prindle, for instance,
writes that the production is empty and unsympathetic, while the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Brooklyn Rocks</i> accuses it of having a
dated, ‘80s sound.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Brooklyn Rocks</i> also claims the record lacks the off-kilter charm of
their earlier works, creating an album that is, well, boring.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As for the vocals, Prindle lists them as
simply bad, flat, hitting the wrong notes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Finally, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Trouser Press</i>
comments on Curt’s “cringeably tuneless singing.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Negative reviews of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, however, are in the distinct minority; most applaud the
record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some see it as a return to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, a record of poppy yet
intricately constructed rock/country songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The record is described as melancholy, “drifting, yet concise”;
“surreal, sad, and humorous.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s seen
as “audaciously dense and disarmingly supple.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Every song is great,” exclaims one writer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It contains some of their best material and
is, positively, ridiculous and thought provoking.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The writers
find <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage </i>a bit hard to categorize,
placing it alongside, inside, and outside a number of conventional pop music
genres.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One writer, after hailing the
record for its “genre bending” uniqueness manages to categorize it as punk,
folk, and psychedelic (the latter, a characterization mentioned by a number of
writers) while s heard it as straight country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Some writers, of course, compare the record (and the band, for that
matter) to other artist in an attempt to translate what they hear on the record
into printed media:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Chet Atkins, Robert
Fripp, King Crimson, Spin Doctors, and Dire Straits (the last three being used
derogatorily) are a few artists to whom the music on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> is compared.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 355.9pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As should be the case, many reviews
focused on the level of musicianship exhibited on the record, especially Curt’s
guitar playing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They mention his
intricate finger-picking and plectrum work as being relaxed and technically
accomplished.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt is given dues as a “Travis-picker,”
referring to Merle Travis, the Kentucky country and western artist known not
only as the writer of “Sixteen Tons,” but as a uniquely gifted finger-picker.<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span></span></span></a><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This focus on Curt’s finger-picking style
accounts for those who see the album as a country music style effort.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Generally, Curt’s guitar work is seen as
impressive, fluid, and intimate.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 355.9pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>While, as I already mentioned, some
critics site Curt and Cris’s vocals as a weak point on the album, there are
some who actually liked the singing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Weingarter,
in the liner notes to the 1999 reissue of the record, writes that although the
vocal harmonies are conventional, the fact that they sound “real” is
endearing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Another writer likes that
they had “cleaned-up” their vocals in comparison with their previous releases,
while another writes that the vocals are “strong.”</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 355.9pt;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Finally, a number of writers see <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> as a landmark of sorts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One sees it as an artistic transition from
the art pop of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> to the
heavier rock of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Another, following along with many who
stopped listening to the band’s new records around this time, saw <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> as Meat Puppets’ “last great
record.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Another simply saw <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> as the “culmination of the first
stage” of the band’s career with, as just mentioned, a heavier, more rocking
set of recordings to come.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Huevos</span></i></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>”
means ‘balls’ in Spanish,” says Cris in Greg Prato’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Too High to Die:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Meet the Meat
Puppets</i> (2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“We called it ‘<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>’ because we had the balls to put
out two records in one year” (p. 145).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In just five days in August of 1987, four months after the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, an album on which they’d spent a
couple months recording, Meat Puppets recorded and mixed the tracks that would
be released as <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>; it was
released in October, six months after <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As the band tells it, there were a couple
reasons for the quick recording and release of the record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One was that they didn’t like playing the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> songs live; it was a studio album
replete with many layers of guitars and vocals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Second, Curt had written an abundance of songs during the rehabilitation
of his broken finger, but the band had only recorded one album’s worth; they
had enough songs to get a good start on another.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At this point in their career Meat Puppets
were determined to “make it,” to succeed in the mainstream rock world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To this end they had put a lot of effort into
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, a tight and determined studio
record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They had also become a
formidable live band by this time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Future manager Dennis Polowski, in Prato’s book, suggests that every
Meat Puppets’ show was the start of something new, the beginning of a new
creative venture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At the same time (and
in the same book), future second guitarist Troy Meiss remembers shows from this
period as experiences in “beautiful depravity and debauchery” (Prato 2012, pp.
152-53).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is, of course, a
compliment for a hard-rocking psychedelic country punk band.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At the same time that they wished for
commercial success, however, the band was determined to mine their own artistic
fields.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They considered themselves
artists, first, makers of exploitable product, second; they may have left the
musical terrain of punk rock behind a few albums earlier, but they retained the
attitude.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To this end, rather than put
out a record that mimicked anything they’d done in the past (whether punk,
country, or psychedelic) they put out a rocking blues record, not a lot of
which were making it up the charts in 1987.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Curt, Cris, and Derrick were also a bit
frustrated by the fact that they hadn’t yet found major label success.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Two of their post-punk contemporaries – Hüsker
Dü and the Replacements – had released major label records and a slew of other
“indie” bands were set to do so in the next year or so.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This frustration was another reason behind
the quick recording and release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>they had put time and effort into <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> without much commercial or critical
success, why not go back to the formula of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i> and, especially, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the
Sun</i>?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’d play it fast and loose
on this record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their fans may be a bit
confused and the media may not understand what the band was up to, but Curt,
Cris, and Derrick knew what they were doing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They were making a rock ‘n’ roll record that they would enjoy playing
live.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As they had with the previous two records,
Meat Puppets recorded <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> in
Phoenix (Scottsdale, precisely), but rather than Chaton Studio they used Pantheon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They also stuck with recording engineer Steve
Escallier for a third time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As
mentioned, however, rather than put a lot of time, money, and effort into it,
they spent but five days in August to record and mix the entire record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt says the record was recorded live with
no affectations, as opposed to the “fake-as-we-could-get-it sort of thing” they
had done on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> (Prato 2012).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They gave it to SST quickly and SST released
it quickly.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Although Curt suggests artists such as
Lynyrd Skynyrd, Ten Years After, and Muddy Waters are apparent on the record,
there is an overwhelming consensus from insiders and the band themselves that <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> is Meat Puppets ZZ Top
record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The story goes that an interview
and story with Curt in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Guitar Player</i>
magazine included a couple of Curt’s drawings of Billy Gibbons, ZZ Top’s
guitarist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Gibbons saw the article and
dropped Curt a postcard claiming his admiration for Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Add to that the fact that Curt, Cris, and
Derrick had gone to a few ZZ Top shows in those particular years (mid-80s) and
Curt felt “it was time to pull that up” (Prato 2012, p. 146).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Others Say</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">And the
rock writers agree:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> is an homage to, if not a downright imitation of, ZZ
Top.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Wilson and Allroy point to the
“screaming guitar, boogie bass, marching drums and macho vocals” in their
comparison of Meat Puppets to ZZ Top.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Brooklyn Rocks</i> uses the “bluesy,
riff-rock power trio sound” of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
as their comparison, while <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Rolling
Stone Album Guide</i> calls the album “wholeheartedly imitative” of ZZ Top,
with the “only musical difference between the two [bands] is Gibbons and Dusty
Hill can both sing, and the Kirkwoods can’t.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Mark Prindle’s words on this subject are worth quoting at length:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">ZZ Top. That's what everybody always says about this album,
so I was hoping to be the voice of dissent and say "Not ZZ Top!" But
such cannot be done. Because this album is VERY clearly intended to sound like
an early ZZ Top record. There's just no way around it. The wimpy light dirty
distortion is the same, the vocals are hoarse and Gibbonsy, the songwriting is
all Texas boogie barre chords and bluesy riffs - even the album title fits
right in with <b>Fandango!, Tejas, El Loco, Tres Hombres</b> and all those
other damned pre-<b>Eliminator</b> ZZ Top album titles. But does it work? Can
Curt Kirkwood's songwriting match up to the classics that are "Tush,"
"Just Got Paid," "Arrested For Driving While Blind" and
"La Grange"? We will address this question when we return.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">We're back, and the answer is no. There are no ZZ Top rock
and roll classics on this LP. There ARE, however, a heck of a lot of "good
ZZ Top non-hits." Which is to say that even though there might not be any
"Tube Snake Boogie"s on here, there are plenty of "Pearl
Necklace"s.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Similar
to Prindle’s paragraphs just quoted, most reviews of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> are positive, focusing on the band’s return from studio
gimmickry to live rock riffing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">All Music Guide</i> praises their return to
straight-ahead rock, suggesting it’s the band’s best set of songs since <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, giving particular praise
to Derrick’s lively drumming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And Wilson
and Allroy refer to the music on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
as “serious rock.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There
were, as with most of the band’s efforts at this point in their career,
detractors, writers who didn’t much care for the record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indeed, even Mark Prindle, who provides the
lengthy positive report above, goes on to criticize the clichéd guitar and
empty mix on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>, while also
mentioned above, the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rolling Stone Album
Guide</i> criticized the Kirkwood’s singing (a criticism that has followed the
band throughout their early career).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Rough Guide</i> saw <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> as a “doomed attempt” at raw rock, calling it unconvincing
because Curt and Cris are “too good” as musicians to play this sort of basic blues.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> in the fall of 1987 the Meat Puppets finished a phase of
their career that included <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>
in 1986 and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> in early ’87.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a phase that saw Curt, Cris, and Derrick
hunker-down in their home town and concentrate on their craft, concentrate on
being professional musicians in charge of their own careers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This was partly brought-on by the healing
required after Curt broke his finger in ’86 which, because it put a stop to
their touring for a few months, allowed him time to focus on writing rather
than just playing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The result was a
plethora of new material played-out over two full-length albums.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>,
is a multi-layered psychedelic record so full of flowering melodies, running
rhythms, and complex vocal arrangements that it was difficult for the band to
play live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The other, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>, was a straight-forward blues
rock album that was filled with songs they could rock live.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> the Meat Puppets had released five full-length and one EP
with the independent SST Records over six years, plus an EP with World
Imitation Records which was later released on SST, and though they appreciated
the creative and business freedom SST had afforded them they were more than
ready to make the move to the majors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>But that move was still two records away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First they would release <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>, a record that ushers in a heavier musical phase for the
band and, importantly, a seemingly more focused strategic plan for leaving the
indies behind.</span></div>
<div style="mso-element: footnote-list;">
<br clear="all" />
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<div id="ftn1" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span></span></span></a> “<span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 9.0pt;">The original Chaton
facility called <i><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Chaton
Recordings</span></i> was opened in Paradise Valley, AZ in 1973 by Ed and
Marie Ravenscroft. Over the years their client list included: the Gin Blossoms,
Ce Ce Peniston, Kenny Rogers, Judas Priest, Lyle Lovett, Paul McCartney, Alice
Cooper and many, many others” (http://chatonstudios.com/?page_id=77).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The original vinyl release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> states “Recorded at Chaton
Studios, Phoenix” and the original vinyl release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> states “Recorded at Chaton, Scottsdale.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Both rereleases of the list it as “Chaton
Studio.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick says that he was never
aware of a distinction between “Chaton Studio” and “Chaton Recordings” (personal
correspondence, 2013).</span></div>
</div>
<div id="ftn2" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"> I first fell for Meat Puppets in the Summer
of 1986 when I heard, late at night, on “Listen to This,” a show broadcast late
Sunday nights/early Monday mornings on San Diego’s 91X radio station, “Good
Golly Miss Molly.”</span></div>
</div>
<div id="ftn3" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span></span></span></a> <span style="font-family: "Courier New";">This review is available both online and on
the 1999 <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> reissue liner-notes.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="ftn4" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<div class="MsoFootnoteText">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=756240850122017654#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span></span></span></a>
Thanks to Derrick Bostrom for pointing me to Merle, rather<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>than Randy, Travis.</div>
</div>
</div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-31629615663451717632015-01-06T20:49:00.000-07:002015-01-06T20:49:07.147-07:00"Up on the Sun": A Retracted Segment from "The Meat Puppets and the Lyrics of Curt Kirkwood from 'Meat Puppets II' to 'No Joke!'"<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Up on the Sun</span></i></b></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Introduction</span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i> was recorded in early 1983, mixed in late ’83, and released to
the public in early 1984.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Its follow-up,
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, the band’s third
full-length record, was recorded and mixed in just three days:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>January 26-28, 1985.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was released in March of that same
year.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Much happened in the two years
between these two landmark albums.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>First, their living arrangements, and thus their playing arrangements,
changed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Second, the songwriting,
playing, and recording skills of the band and its members increased
dramatically.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
result was an album, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, that
showed a band that had made a clean cut, at least in the recording studio, from
their hardcore punk genesis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a
musically solid record featuring intricate interplays between Cris’s bass,
Curt’s guitar, and Derrick’s steady rhythms.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Lyrically, the album finds Curt fully realizing his oblique writing
style with a number of songs being ambiguous and/or nonsensical.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Structurally, the songs are often psychedelic
strings of metaphors mixing senses and colors to create surreal images.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Topically, the most consistent theme on the
record is one of escape from conventional reality into alternate places,
reached through drugs and other ways.</span></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">History</span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The main factor that influenced the lives
of the band members at this point was the birth of Curt’s twins in the Fall of
‘83:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Elmo Isaac Dillinger Dean Samuel
Sinbad Kirkwood and Katherine Louisa St. Elmo Amelia Violet Presley Kirkwood (http://meatpuppets.com/puppets/phoenix-new-times-weekly-october-1983/).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>According to Derrick, things began to get “a
little bit more tense” and “a little bit weird” at the house out on the edge of
Phoenix shared by he, Curt, and Cris as the twins’ births grew nearer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For the first few months after the release of
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> but before the twins’
births, the band members hung-out, got stoned, and honed their craft, as
before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With the impending births
closing in, however, the Kirkwoods’ mother sold the shared house, bought a new
one for Curt, Cris, their girlfriends, and the twins, and kindly informed
Derrick he would have to find other living arrangements.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Moving houses was a regular occurrence at
this point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As a band of young men who
partied pretty hard, houses tended to take a beating.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">We trashed that house and moved to another one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My mom was a realtor.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She owned the house that we were living in
when my kids were born, and we ruined that so she got us another rental which
we ruined, and we got ourselves this nicer rental with a pool and horse
pastures.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think they sold that. (Curt,
personal interview)</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>At the break-up of the “party” house that
Meat Puppets had been living in for the past year, Derrick moved back to his
mother’s house on the East side of Phoenix in Paradise Valley, while the
Kirkwoods moved into a “converted trailer kind of place” (Derrick) in a “not so
good area” for awhile, and then to a house a few miles away from Derrick near
the Paradise Valley Mall. This, of course, changed the practicalities of the
band’s rehearsal schedule.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For one
thing, rehearsals happened at the Kirkwoods home and Derrick did not have a
car, so he relied on rides from the brothers or his mother or, as often as not,
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>According to Derrick, changing living
conditions and practice spaces made for more focused sessions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>While living together the three Puppets would
rehearse haphazardly whenever they happened to be in the mood which, given
their dedication, was quite often.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now
that they lived apart, however, they had to make better use of rehearsal
time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As time became more precious, says
Derrick, “rehearsals got more intensified” (personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the second half of 1983, after
recording <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> and its
release, Meat Puppets never stopped working.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Curt was in a fertile writing period so, instead of waiting around for
the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">II</i> they began working
on new songs as well as gigging and touring.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Says Derrick:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We’re just
in an environment where we’re always working.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Curt was always working on stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He was woodshedding and woolgathering as they say in the writer’s
world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He wasn’t necessarily putting
everything down on paper.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We weren’t
necessarily getting together and focusing on stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were just learning songs, one at a time,
and he was formulating his next moves (personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">At this point the band was still benefitting from an
inheritance left to the Kirkwoods by their grandfather (an inheritance that
would last until 1986).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Along with
helping Curt support his new family, the inheritance allowed band members to
eschew day jobs and continue to focus on their rock career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Derrick says, in 1983 he, Curt, and Cris
“basically sat around and smoked pot and worked on our music” (personal
interview). <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Much of what would come out
on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> was conceived at
this time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt’s vision for the albums
was formulated here and some lo-fi cassette demos were made.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Meat Puppets considered their eponymous debut to be
successful and, given the obvious creative strides they made on the second
record, had every reason to believe that <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">II</i>
was even better and they were eager to promote its release.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To this end they went on a six-week American
tour with SST label-mates Black Flag and the Nig-Heist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This tour served to solidify band members’
vision of themselves as unique and distinct from the hardcore punk crowds and
sounds for which they were playing. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i>, for one thing, was released in the midst of the tour to strong
reviews, including a four-star rating in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rolling
Stone</i> magazine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yet they weren’t
seeing many of their records in stores around the country while Black Flag
records seemed to be stocked in abundance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Similarly, they were feeling artistically constrained by being lumped in
with the heavier sounds of Black Flag and sophomoric antics of the
Nig-Heist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>With the tour at an end, Meat
Puppets were “looking to move as far ahead of the pack as we could” (Derrick
interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It was in the Summer of 1984 that the Kirkwoods
moved to Paradise Valley, near the mall, just a few miles from where Derrick
was living with his mother.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the Fall
the band rented an RV and did a headlining tour of their own (they had been the
support act for Black Flag).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Upon
returning to Phoenix sometime after Thanksgiving of ’84, they decided it was
time to record the follow-up to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In an attempt to avoid
replicating the long wait that occurred between recording and mixing <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>, and in true DIY
fashion, they began recording at the home of Darrell Demarco, their soundman,
with the intent of doing the entire album themselves.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The
Kirkwoods rented the tape deck from a local music shop. Our sound man already
had the board, mikes, available space, etc. so we set up there (Derrick
interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The
band spent about a month at the end of 1984 recording.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, they weren’t getting the sounds they
wanted down on tape.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick, for
instance, didn’t like the way the drums were sounding and, overall, the band
was feeling that the sound was too lo-fi and muddy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The final nail in the album’s DIY coffin was
when the recorder was taken back:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“The
music shop sold the tape recorder some time around New Years, thus ending the
project” (Derrick, email).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They did,
however, get some “very good” demos out of the sessions and, importantly, an
idea of how the songs should be arranged.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>With the DIY recording sessions over the
band decided to go back to the familiar, they would record with Spot at Total
Access Studios in Redondo Beach, California; the same engineer from their first
two albums and the same studio used for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This time, however, to
avoid the delay between recording and mixing, they blacked-out the studio for
three days, Friday through Sunday, January 26 through 28, 1985, with the intent
of finishing the entire album in this time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>And they had reason to believe they could do it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By virtue of having attempted to record the
album on their own, they knew the songs well and they rehearsed the songs well
before going to California.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There were a few hitches in the recording
process, though.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most notably, as he encountered
throughout his career with the band, Derrick had trouble getting the sounds he
wanted out of his drums.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt and Cris
grew impatient with this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At one point
Derrick left the studio in frustration (he says for half an hour, Cris
remembers it being more like five hours).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>In the end, Derrick had to simplify many of his drum parts in order to
get consistent audio quality.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because of
this streamlining of arrangements, however, says Derrick, the record has an
immediate and up-tempo feel to it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the
end, they finished the record in the three days.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We were
able to get the whole thing done by the end of Sunday night:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>basics, overdubs, vocals, mixing, cutting,
sequencing and it was done.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was
definitely an incredible thing for us to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>(Derrick, personal interview)</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The Album</span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up
on the Sun</i> was released in March of 1985 to, again, critical acclaim.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Critics and band members alike saw it as yet
another creative step forward, leaving behind the country punk of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> and embracing a poppier,
possibly more accessible, set of songs.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; tab-stops: 203.25pt;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What Others
Say<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After the nearly unanimous critical praise
that accompanied <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>
there were great expectations awaiting Meat Puppets’ third album, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, and, for the most part,
the band didn’t disappoint.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Joe
Carducci, author and one-time co-owner of SST Records (the label that released <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>), saw the record as “fully
realized” (A&I p. 204) while Greg Prato in the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">All Music Guide to Rock</i> calls it “another masterpiece” (All Music
Guide, p. 719).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As might be expected, most of the reviews
of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> used its predecessor
as a comparison.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Prato, again from the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">All Music Guide</i>, praised the new record
as a move forward from their previous masterpiece while <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Sputnick Music</i> hails it as “an amazing album and just as good as
its predecessor” (</span><a href="http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">)</span>. <span style="font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">There are those, however, such as
Precious Roy from the blog <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Dead On</i>,
who see <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> as
“discombobulating” and “out of place, a “lateral move” rather than a
progressive one (</span><a href="http://deadon.wordpress.com/2007/03/27/upon-further-review-meat-puppets-up-on-the-sun/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://deadon.wordpress.com/2007/03/27/upon-further-review-meat-puppets-up-on-the-sun/</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For avid fans and critics, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> remain, as blogger Mike states, the band’s two
essential recordings; they debate over which one “is the band’s strongest” (</span><a href="http://brooklynrocks.blogspot.com/2012/01/meat-puppets-up-on-sun-cd-review-mvd.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://brooklynrocks.blogspot.com/2012/01/meat-puppets-up-on-sun-cd-review-mvd.html</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on
the Sun</i> was a turning point in Meat Puppet’s musical career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It “cemented the band’s reputation as sonic
chemists and maturing songwriters” (Linblad, A&I p. 3), they were a band
that “had learned to work as a unit” (</span><a href="http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>If Meat Puppets took a step away from punk
and hardcore on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets </i>II, they
made the break clean with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The material on this record is a “jazzy,
jam-based trip-out” (A&I p. 6), lush and “psychedelic” (Rough Guide),
proving that “not only weren’t they punks, they could easily pass for hippies”
(</span><a href="http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Influences identified on the record range
from Captain Beefheart to “proto-Phish” (</span><a href="http://deadon.wordpress.com/2007/03/27/upon-further-review-meat-puppets-up-on-the-sun/"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://deadon.wordpress.com/2007/03/27/upon-further-review-meat-puppets-up-on-the-sun/</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">), “almost
Rush level” (</span><a href="http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">), a punk
“Jerry Garcia” (Trouser Press) and “the Grateful Dead” (</span><a href="http://brooklynrocks.blogspot.com/2012/01/meat-puppets-up-on-sun-cd-review-mvd.html"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://brooklynrocks.blogspot.com/2012/01/meat-puppets-up-on-sun-cd-review-mvd.html</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hardcore punk or not, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, is cited as “the most impressive record any hardcore
band. . .has made” (A&I, p. 298).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: Courier; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">One thing Meat
Puppets did learn from punk rock, writes Mark Deming, and carried through on to
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>, “was to get to the
point” (</span><a href="http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review</span></a>).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The album, he writes, is “remarkably tight” and
“full of energy and purpose.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Most of
this tightness and purpose, of course, can be attributed to the band having
prepared and rehearsed the songs before entering the studio.</span><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The
songwriting on the record is praised as being “unbelievably smart” (</span><a href="http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm%23uppie"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm#uppie</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">), filled
with “memorable melodies” and “musical unpredictability” (A&I p. 42) while
the production creates an album that is “beautifully textured” (</span><a href="http://www.warr.org/puppets.html"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.warr.org/puppets.html</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">), making
“them shine” (</span><a href="http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It was with
the release of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> that a
consensus developed concerning the musical prowess of the members of Meat
Puppets; they were good.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Specifically,
the interplay between Curt’s guitar and Cris’s bass is often singled-out for
praise, “it’s some of the best i (sic) have ever heard”<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"> (</b></span><a href="http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">) is not an
uncommon sentiment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick was keeping
pace with the Kirkwood brothers, “pumpin’ out the uptempo beats left and lefter
to keep such mature music moving quickly” (</span><a href="http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm%23uppie"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm#uppie</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Taken
as a whole, the original (1981-1995) Meat Puppets’ catalogue of music leans
toward the darker side of the human condition:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>hard, grungy music accompanied by lyrics focused on the existentially
meaningless nature of being alive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But
with its up-tempo, jazzy, finger-picking guitar, melodically noodling
bass-lines, snappy percussion, and fanciful lyrics, however, not a few have
pointed to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun </i>as the
band’s happy album:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>it is described as
“frequently beautiful” (A&I p. 298), “joyous,” “their most purely
pleasurable work” (</span><a href="http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.allmusic.com/album/up-on-the-sun-r709034/review</span></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">), “one of
the best feel good albums ever made,” “happy music for great ass times,” and,
well, and album that “just makes me really happy as ***, like i have to start
dancing” (</span><a href="http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Any
criticisms of the record tended to focus on Curt’s vocals, something that has
followed him throughout his career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No
less than three times in one three-paragraph piece for the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rolling Stone Album Guide</i>, for example, J.D. Considine mentions
Meat Puppets’ “haphazard vocals,” the fact that “they can’t” sing, and that, in
the end, “the Kirkwoods may yet learn to sing” (p. 465).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mark Prindle uses language that is no less
direct in referring to the vocals on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up
on the Sun</i>:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">unfortunately
the vocals are pretty abominably hideous as either Curt or both Curt and Cris
have given up warbling and screaming to attempt actual SINGING which they
aren't too good at yet and generally sing flat and miss lots of notes, to such
a degree that my wife made fun of them during the first song (which
incidentally features by far the worst vocals on the album, so don't judge it
on that track alone!) (</span><a href="http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm%23uppie"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.markprindle.com/meatpuppets.htm#uppie</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>While
most comments and criticisms of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the
Sun</i> focus on the musicianship of the band, some people do mention Curt’s
lyrics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As with the comments about the
lyrics on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>, the
comments on this album skip any detailed analyses for rather superficial
mentions of their weirdness.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Wilson and
Allroy, for instance, suggest that “the lyrics run the gamut from the
ridiculous (‘Swimming Ground,’ ‘Buckethead’) to the engagingly poetic (title
track, ‘two rivers’)” (</span><a href="http://www.warr.org/puppets.html"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.warr.org/puppets.html</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Similarly, Sputnickmusic suggests that the
lyrics are good, but it’s the music that makes the album:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“the lyrics are crazy and cool but who cares
about the lyrics when the musicianship is this good” (</span><a href="http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/47362/Meat-Puppets-Up-on-the-Sun/</span></b></a><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">).</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">What
Puppets Say</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So there were two years between the
recording of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>During this time the band went on a few
tours, the most notorious of which was the Spring of 1984 tour with Black Flag
and the Nig Heist.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also, Derrick, Curt,
and Cris moved around the Phoenix valley a few times, sometimes living
together, sometimes apart.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But the band
kept rehearsing, Curt kept writing songs, and, most importantly for the
creation of the new record, they attempted to record the album on their own,
which allowed them to become familiar with the songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The result was an album completely recorded
and mixed in three days at Total Access Studios in Redondo Beach, California.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">We knocked it out in the first day or two and we lived at the
studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We didn’t leave.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Spot and I, especially, just hung in there
and took little naps on the floor next to the sound board and it was done.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(Curt, personal interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was
during their Spring ‘84 tour that the members of Meat Puppets began to
formulate a conception of themselves as truly separate from the hardcore punk
scene that was building around Black Flag.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>As opposed to the more arty punk scene in Los Angeles where Meat Puppets
first began, where the emphasis was on individuality and creativity, the fans
that followed Black Flag at this point become uniform.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Cris says, a “batch of kids suddenly came
up who were all into Doc Martins and skanking and being bald.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(personal interview).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Additionally, these fans were into a
“hardcore” type of music:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>loud, fast,
and aggressive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And although Meat
Puppets could play as fast as anyone, they envisioned themselves as something
more, as a rock band generally, not just a punk rock band.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Even with
this broader vision of themselves as a rock band, Meat Puppets were still
playing the hardcore punk circuit, playing to hardcore punk fans and, not going
over so well:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“The punkers always hated
us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But those were the only places we
played shows.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(Cris, personal
interview).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And, to be honest, Curt,
Cris, and Derrick did harbor a certain amount of punk attitude even if they saw
their music going somewhere else. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To
this end, they began to goad their audiences, affectively punk rocking the
punkers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One example of this was at a
show from this time period at which the band opened for Suicidal Tendencies, a
band which epitomized the new louder-faster rules type of hardcore/speed metal
hybrid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Suicidal Tendencie’s fans
called for Meat Puppets to play faster and harder, Curt started singing a
mid-tempo rambling ballad about his daughter, a slowdown of the music in direct
response to the fans’ wishes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The song,
of course, was “Up on the Sun,” the title track to their upcoming album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“So,” says Derrick, “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> has its core in that tension between us and the punk
audience.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Furthermore,
the members of Meat Puppets came from different backgrounds and expressed a
different view of the world than many of their hardcore brethren.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Henry Rollins, lead singer for Black Flag
at the time of their 1984 tour with Meat Puppets, states in his journal from
the period:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">4.2.84 New Orleans, LA:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">The Meat
Puppets are a great band but they are children.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>They think that everyone owes them something. It’s funny to see them
deal with things as the rich kids that they are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(Rollins, p. 84)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Curt doesn’t disagree with Rollins’ assessment of
the influence Meat Puppets’ middle-class upbringings had on their music; they
weren’t interested in playing exclusively loud fast punk rock:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“We just weren’t that aggressive, we weren’t
that pissed off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I mean, we were more
than pissed off—it was psychosis full-bloom—but it was just beyond emotion”
(Curt, A&I p. 307).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>If Curt
was beginning to show his leadership role on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>, his position is undisputed among the members by
the time they get to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Derrick says,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">I wouldn’t
even say it’s a leadership role because for Curt it’s really about Curt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To him, he wouldn’t say that there’s a
difference between Curt Kirkwood and The Meat Puppets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He wouldn’t say, “I’m a member of the Meat
Puppets.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He would say it’s one and the
same.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(personal interview)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Although
Cris does have two co-writing credits on the album (“Maiden’s Milk” and “Animal
Kingdom”) Curt is responsible for the final arrangements, it was Curt who wrote
the songs, it was Curt who didn’t leave the studio during the recording
session.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As for the finished product, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> is generally seen as Meat
Puppets’ lightest record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The reasons
for this are varied.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One reason, Curt
suggests, might have to do with the drugs he, Cris, and Derrick took during the
recording session.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Rather than LSD (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets</i>) or MDA (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> was made primarily under the influence of nothing
stronger than beer and pot, drugs that Curt feel give it a more relaxed feel.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another, probably more realistic, reason
for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>’s lighter feel had
to do with the band’s conscious movement away from hardcore punk and into a
more mainstream competitive market.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Curt, especially, began to see himself and the band as members of
something beyond punk, as members of the larger rock and roll music world and,
thus, as a songwriter, as someone who wrote songs for a broad audience.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I came to the realization that my competition wasn’t in the same
genre, or it wasn’t a genre, or there wasn’t any competition.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I realized if you look at things that way,
then what you’re really doing is throwing yourself out there with anything else
that anybody records, and therefore it’s probably on a par with that in some
people’s eyes and I started looking at it in that way in my own eyes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like, “Well I’m not really writing punk rock
songs, I’m writing songs the same way anybody else does, whether it’s Prince or
whoever.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That opened my eyes up, made
the playing field a lot bigger (Curt, personal interview, pp. 4 & 5).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="color: red; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Meat
Puppets’ influences at the time reflected their desired movement into the realm
of popular rock music and away from the confines of hardcore punk, and these
influences, as Curt, Cris, and Derrick say, can be found on the more pop
oriented sounds of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Eighties contemporaries such as Prince, REM,
and Duran Duran, for example, are mentioned multiple times by the band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As Derrick suggests, the band made a
conscious decision to make a pop oriented record:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">We were
like, “We’re going to make indie dance music with Meat Puppets flair.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And were going to be clean sounding and we’re
not going to be alt-country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a post-Duran
Duran, post-REM kind of record, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the
Sun</i> is (personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">These
same bands influenced Curt as the songwriter in the band:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“</span><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I was
pretty into Prince at the time, and Bruce Springsteen, and REM, stuff that was
popular at that time (personal interview).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Similarly, Cris points to Mike Mills of REM and John Taylor of Duran
Duran as direct influences upon his playing on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I really dug what Mills was doing in REM.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a cool use of the bass that was
reminiscent of the bassists that I love.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There was the McCartney element there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was singing bass lines.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Melodic
bass lines that are a little sub-melody support thing within a standing chord
that the guitar players arpeggiated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
you know who else I really dug was John Taylor from Duran Duran.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So you listen to some of that funkier octaving,
you know, I’m going for root octave and I’m going “[makes bass noises].”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s a bit of John Taylor in there
(personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As a
result of these pop music influences upon the members of Meat Puppets, and also
as a result of the band being well-rehearsed (as a result of their aborted
attempt at self-recording), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>
is a surprisingly light (as opposed to heavy) record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>According to Derrick, the move to lighter and
poppier was gradual and can be witnessed by listening to earlier
self-recordings of the songs that make it onto <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>:</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The songs on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> underwent a lot of
transformation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If you listen to the
bonus tracks you can tell that the songs started out as a kind of Led Zeppelin,
Black Sabbath vibe and they were more slowed down, a little grungier, a little
heavier, and then once we ditched that and honed them down to a three piece
core that was more up tempo and not quite so heavy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was conceived to be heavier than it ended
up being.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were listening to a lot of
Zeppelin and guitar seventies bands and then, again, the more danceable sound
of the mid-early eighties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Your Duran
Durans and Michael Jacksons begin to penetrate more (personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">This movement to a more pop
oriented sound is evidenced in the structure of the songs.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">The songs are short and have
more of a pop structure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have
intricate parts but they’re not designed to showcase.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was better integrated so you got
interesting instrumental parts budded to songs that they fit in rather than
having a five minute solo song (Derrick, personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In typical nonchalant fashion, Curt
suggests there was no intention to have <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up
on the Sun</i> be of any particular style or genre, it was simply him trying to
be idiosyncratic, to make a record pure to his vision:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“I don’t think it was supposed to be
intentionally poppy, I was just trying to get outside of style if anything”
(personal interview).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All-in-all, then, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> is a relatively light
record by a band known to explore some fairly dark themes throughout their
career.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As both Curt and Derrick
suggest, maybe the answer is as simple as the drugs (or lack thereof) the band
members were taking (or not) during the recording process</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">It’s funny.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You think of The Meat Puppets as quirky and
you think of some of the records as darker than others, but they’re all pretty
dark.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that one seems to be lighter
in a lot of respects.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Certainly we were
probably taking a little less acid with the infants around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You have to assume that the biggest drug that
Curt was on during that period was lack of sleep (Derrick, personal interview).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another
important distinction between <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> that
shows the band’s progression in the studio was the recording process itself,
especially Curt’s guitars:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“We recorded
the whole thing direct guitar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t
think we used an amplifier on that whole album” (Curt, personal
interview).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Additionally, Curt learned
something about overdubs in making <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">MPII</i>
and attempting to home record <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the
Sun</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The result was a thickly layered
album:</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-left: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">There was maybe one or two
overdubs on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was pretty much just a straight take,
and put on a few acoustic guitars or a lead here and there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on
the Sun</i> had three, four, five guitars on a song, at least two or three on a
lot of them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was fun, understanding
they don’t do all of this at one time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I
didn’t know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started figuring it out
on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i> (Curt, personal
interview).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">So the band’s third album was the
one on which “we kind of figured it out. . .how to mess around with production
when we produced <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i>”
(Curt, A&I p. 123).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt credits the
record’s engineer/producer Spot with giving him the room to find the sound he
wanted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Spot was hands-off, which was to
Curt’s liking:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“He made it really easy
to get exactly what I wanted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had no
opinion” (Curt, A&I p. 108).</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As
a result of the band’s intense preparation and of their accumulated familiarity
with studio recording and understanding of the recording process itself, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> is a more coherent set of
songs than either of the band’s previous records, which isn’t to say it’s
better, though it is consistently mentioned as <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">the</i> favorite album of Meat Heads. "And that's like [most] people's favorite record of ours. Whereas <i>Meat Puppets II</i> was more varied, more difference from song to song, in instrumentation and arrangement. On <i>Up on the Sun</i>, each cut is arranged real similarly, to streamline the process" (Derrick, A&I p. 157). </span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"> In the end all three Meat Puppets are fond of <i>Up on the Sun</i>. It's a record that is unique in their repertoire for its pop structures and technical virtuosity. Curt has "always thought it was a pretty different albums for us, one that stands out. I love the sound of it" (A&I, p. 247). In discussing the musical abilities of the band at the time, Cris says, "the band is an entity unto itself" (Cris, personal interview) at this point, an entity with few peers.</span></div>
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up
on the Sun</i> found Meat Puppets continuing their push through new artistic
boundaries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Touring with Black Flag, the
success of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets </i>II, and changes
in the band members’ living situations (Curt becoming the father of twins,
Derrick moving back home with his mother) served to light a fire of purpose
under the band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The album, voted Meat
Puppets’ best by an online survey, is musically and lyrically stunning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are musicians who have found a voice
playing songs written by a songwriter/lyricist who is on top of his game.</span></div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-89416465316795588132013-11-12T15:05:00.000-07:002013-12-03T08:57:50.268-07:00Indie Rock<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<![endif]-->Here's a piece I wrote for an encyclopedia called <a href="http://www.abc-clio.com/product.aspx?id=2147544960" target="_blank">"</a><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=TQPXAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA582&lpg=PA582&dq=matthew+smith-lahrman&source=bl&ots=OZRgXwU0E0&sig=qZjIJCN_3ZpQnoKIIGG_cifqn-Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zP2dUt7qKOSviAK7pIHgBw&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=matthew%20smith-lahrman&f=false" target="_blank">Music in American Life" (ABC-CLIO, 2013</a>). Feel free to visit their site and spend $415 for the set.<br />
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"> </span></b><b><span style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Indie Rock</span></span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></b></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Indie Rock
Defined</span></b></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“Indie” rock
began as a structural movement by musicians in the 1970s and ‘80s to free
themselves from the constraints of the major label dominated recording industry;
“indie” is short for “independent.” <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
defining characteristic that set early indie artists apart from others,
especially in the decade leading up to the success of Nirvana, was that they
did not make records for any of the big six major labels of the time:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Capital, CBS, MCA, PolyGram, RCA, and WEA.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>While the structural requirements for being
“indie” faded in the post-Nirvana rock world, a recognizable “indie” genre
emerged with the presentation of independence as its key feature.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>As a structural movement, indie rock was a
direct descendent of the Do It Yourself (DIY) ethos of punk rock from the 1970s
that stressed artists’ rights to control their own products.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Punk and indie artists perceived that major
label production and distribution methods compromised musicians’ artistic integrity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major labels, the story went, have vested
interests in creating marketable product rather than works of art.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Independent labels like SST in Southern California,
Dischord in Washington, D.C., and SubPop in Seattle spearheaded the indie rock
movement of the 1980s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The ethos of
these labels was to empower artists to make uncompromising music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The people who ran these labels believed that
rock is about more than just product, it is about a self-supporting community
of musicians, labels, venues, fanzines, and fans.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the nineties, with the success of
Nirvana, the major label music industry developed strategies for marketing
indie artists on the major label level.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>At this point, indie rock became as much musical genre as structural
movement. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">History</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">In the
pre-rock and roll late 1940s and early fifties, the music industry was overrun
by independent labels releasing music by new artists. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Costs for these labels were low because they
were usually operated by one person, didn’t hire union musicians and didn’t pay
royalties.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because independent label
owners captured a share of the market major labels weren’t exploiting, the
label head didn’t have to know the entire record market to be successful. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A short list of these early independents
includes Sun in Memphis, Chess in Chicago, King/Federal in Cincinnati, Imperial
and Aladdin in Los Angeles, Atlantic in New York, and Savoy in Newark, New
Jersey.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Independent labels, then, put out the
first rock and roll records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>By 1955,
however, major labels began putting out covers of independent label hits that
outsold the originals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Kids preferred
the original rock and roll songs, but the independents couldn’t compete with
the majors’ larger promotional budgets.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
1959, major labels out-grossed independent labels in the rock and roll market
for the first time.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the wake of the payola rulings in 1959,
major labels managed to wrest control of radio programming away from individual
disc jockeys in favor of playlists created by major label-friendly program
directors.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also, the major labels now
controlled a large portion of America’s record distribution system.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Independent labels had to contract outside
distributors to get their product to market, major labels owned their own
distribution networks. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Therefore, by the
end of the sixties the major labels controlled most of the rock music production
and distribution market.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>By the mid-seventies the major recording
labels had firm control of the rock market in two more ways.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First, with the internationalization of the
rock music market brought on by the British Invasion, major labels benefited by
exercising their royalty and distribution agreements with their major European
counterparts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Second, because the cost
of the now popular 12-inch LP was significantly more than for the once popular
7-inch single, independent labels couldn’t compete. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The initial investment to produce such records
was too much for them.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Punk rock in the late 1970s was an
explicit structural reaction against the centralized major label market that dominated
the rock music world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Punk rockers
rejected major recording and distribution companies, constructing independent companies
of their own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because of an
industry-wide economic slump, and because they were still more interested in
disco than punk rock, the major labels were leaving these new independents
alone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The number of independent labels
was on the rise.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The stage was set for
the burgeoning of a new rock scene based on an independent market structure
separate from the major labels.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Modern Indie Rock</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Keeping with the DIY ethic of punk rock,
labels such as Alternative Tentacles in San Francisco, Epitaph in Los Angeles, and
Touch and Go in Chicago ushered in a new indie label movement in the 1980s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The early to mid-eighties also saw the
formation of a number of bands considered crucial to the coming indie genre: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Bad Religion, Meat Puppets, Pixies, and R.E.M.
to name a few.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was also around this
time that another important structural component in the indie rock music scene appeared,
college radio.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>College radio existed in one form or
another for many years, but it wasn’t until the 1980s that it became the
backbone of indie rock by providing a rationale for its existence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>College stations promoted indie shows, played
indie records, and had indie-savvy DJs who, rather than playing music dictated
by a program director, picked songs themselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Because college radio was funded primarily by the schools in which they
were located, they were economically independent from, and thus worked outside
of, the major label commodity system.</span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; mso-add-space: auto; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Another important structural
feature of the 1980s indie scene was fanzines.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Small, local, independently run magazines like <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Flipside</i>, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Maximumrocknroll</i>,
and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Forced Exposure </i>were the
literature of the indie rock world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fanzines
were where indie rockers could read about new releases and local shows by their
favorite indie bands as well as find other like-minded people with whom to
start bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fanzines weren’t concerned
with pleasing sponsors, they were only concerned with presenting a genuine
indie voice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Because the writers were of
the indie scene, and not professional journalists, they wrote in a language to
which indie fans could relate.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">With the
help of college radio and fanzines, and because indie labels were relatively
small, put out a lot of 7-inch vinyl singles, weren’t overly concerned with
making money, and sold to indie shops using indie distributors, they invested
less money in their bands than did major labels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thus, the indie world became as efficient at
producing and distributing their artists as the major labels were with theirs,
effectively becoming a shadow system to the major label industry.</span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; mso-add-space: auto; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">By the early 1990s a number of
bands that were successful on college radio stations with their independent
label releases made the leap to the major labels: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Husker Du, the Replacements, and Sonic Youth
to name three.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The success of these
bands drew the attention of executives in the major label world.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major labels began raiding the rosters of
independent labels, relegating them to a sort of minor leagues for the major
labels, the indie labels taking chances on new artists, the major labels
snatching up those that were most successful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Along the way, college radio also went from being personal and
idiosyncratic to being a breeding ground for record executives.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The end of indie rock as structural reaction
was near.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the early 1990s eighty-percent of
compact discs and singles sold were by major labels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Major labels dominated the production,
distribution, and promotion of the market, keeping indie labels and bands at a
disadvantage.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Many indie labels were
dependent upon major label distributors to get their product on the
market.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Consequently, the rise of the
indie industry in the 1980s had a conservative effect on indie rock in the
1990s.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were working with, rather
than against, the major label industry.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Nirvana</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">With the
release of Nirvana’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i> in
1991 the indie world became mainstream.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Nirvana, a band with strong indie credentials (their first album, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Bleach</i>, was released on SubPop), was
suddenly the world’s most popular band, and they were taking advantage of the
financial resources which only major labels could provide (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i> was released on the major label DGC).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In Nirvana’s wake, aesthetically “cool” indie
bands could be successful at the major label level.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>In the post-Nirvana music world indie rock
lost its place as a structural reaction to the mainstream major label industry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Since indie (now called “alternative” and/or
“grunge”) was selling, indie artists saw that they could make money in the
industry they previously rejected.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Signing
to a major label was done with a shrug by post-Nirvana indie bands.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Being on an independent label was simply seen
as a career step toward being signed by a major label.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Indie as Genre</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>After <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Nevermind</i>,
indie rock became a mainstream music genre.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>The immediate precursors to the indie genre were punk and alternative
bands like Black Flag, Mission of Burma, Minor Threat, Butthole Surfers, Big
Black, Dinosaur Jr, Fugazi, Mud Honey, and Beat Happening.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are all bands with beginnings in
various punk scenes around the United States, but with varying musical styles. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As such, indie in the eighties and nineties
was anything but a coherent sound.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What
lumps these punk, alternative and indie bands together is an expressed (though
not necessarily practiced) rejection of mainstream music norms.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Modern indie genre presentations emphasize
musicians as ordinary, average Joes, flaunting mainstream conventions of rock
musicians as stars.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indie bands are seen
as “real.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They wear “real” clothes and
sing in “real” voices in an attempt to dissolve the distinction between audience
members and artists.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In being “real,” indie
bands often record their own music, do their own artwork, and distribute their
own records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Their sound is often
“lo-fi” or under produced.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Despite the expressed rejection of
mainstream norms, the mainstreaming of indie rock as a genre is evident in many
places in the twenty-first century.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
2011, SiriusXM Satellite Radio has a station called “Sirius XMU:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Indie/College/Unsigned” devoted to indie
rock.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The title alludes to indie rock’s
anti-mainstream history grounded in college radio and independent recording
labels.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are at least two “professionally”-run
websites that deal exclusively with indie rock:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Indierockreviews.com” and “Indierockcafe.com.”</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Even with its mainstream and major label status,
indie rock’s most consistent code remains the presentation of anti-mainstream
structure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>An article on
Indierockcafe.com, for instance, states that the site has a treasure trove of
music to share from “bands and artists most of you have never heard of before,”
because they know that we “love hearing music from talented artists you are
unfamiliar with” (“7 Bands”).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The
emphasis here is on the obscure and underground as opposed to the
mainstream.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The same website provides a
list of bands that fall under the indie rock moniker:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Decemberists, Bright Eyes, Drive By
Truckers, Smith Westerns, the Strokes, and Radiohead, bands with a tangled web
of independent and major label connections.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Musically, modern indie rock is often a thickly
layered mashup of traditional instruments juxtaposed over electronic beats and
samples.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The band Arcade Fire, for
instance, includes not only the rock music staples of guitar, bass, and drums,
but also mixes violin, viola, cello, glockenspiel, French horn, and hurdy-gurdy
into their sound, with most of the band members being proficient at multiple
instruments.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Writers on these websites describe “good” indie
songs as “good” pop songs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are
danceable and hummable and inviting for audience members to join in the
singing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Good indie songs are described
as “unbridled pop bliss” (Bear, “Echo”), having “infectiously driving hooks”
(Justman), “music to move to” (Witt), and having a “powerful beat” (Bear,
“Interview”).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are, despite indie’s
history, mainstream pop songs.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Conclusion</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Modern indie rock has a history reaching
back to the beginnings of rock and roll.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It has always been seen as an alternative.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the fifties and sixties it was an
alternative to mainstream smoothed-over rock and roll.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the seventies punk rock, a direct
precursor to modern indie rock, was an explicit structural alternative to
mainstream rock stars and the major label system.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In the aftermath of Nirvana and into the
twenty-first century, indie rock is itself a mainstream rock genre, with one of
its main codes being a presentation of being an alternative to the mainstream.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Further Reading</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Books</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Arnold,
Gina.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>1993.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Route
666:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>On the Road to Nirvana</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New York:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>St. Martin’s.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Azerrad,
Michael.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>2001.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Our
Band Could Be Your Life:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Scenes from the
American Underground 1981-1991</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New
York:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Little, Brown and Company.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Felder,
Rachel.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>1993.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Manic
Pop Thrill</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hopewell, NJ:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Ecco Press.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Palmer,
Robert.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>1995.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rock
& Roll:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>An Unruly History</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>New York:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Harmony Books.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Smith-Lahrman,
Matthew.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>1996.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Selling-out:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Constructing Authenticity and Success in
Chicago’s Indie Rock Music Scene</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Northwestern University:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>PhD
Dissertation.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Ward, Ed,
Geoffrey Stokes, and Ken Tucker.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>1986.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Rock of Ages:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Rolling Stone
History of Rock & Roll</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Englewood Cliffs, NJ:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Rolling
Stone Press/Prentice-Hall.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Web Pages</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Indie Rock Café</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><<a href="http://www.indierockcafe.com/">http://www.indierockcafe.com</a>/>. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; text-align: left; text-indent: -0.5in;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Indie Rock Reviews</span></i><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><<a href="http://www.indierockreviews.com/">http://www.indierockreviews.com</a>>/.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Works Cited</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">“7 Bands
You Gotta Hear, Vol. 1:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Golden Dogs, Rec
Centre, Smoke & Feathers, Boogie Monster, The Wind, El Santo Nada,
M&JC.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Indierockcafe.com</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Web.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>July 24, 2011.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bear.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Echo & the Bunnymen-The Proxy-MP3
Download/Song Review.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Indierockcafe.Com</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Web.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>July 24, 2011.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Bear.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Interview:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A Lull-Confetti.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Indierockcafe.Com</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Web.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>July 25, 2011.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Justman,
Alexis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Kitten:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sunday School EP Review.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Indierockcafe.com</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Web.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>July 25, 2011.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Witt,
Britt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Holy Ghost! Full-Length Album
Review.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Indierockcafe.com</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Web.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>July 25, 2011.</span></div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-34419257338364074172013-09-27T14:11:00.001-06:002013-09-27T14:11:44.980-06:00A New Books interview with James Greene Jr, Author of "This Music Leaves Stains: The Complete Story of the Misfits"<a href="http://newbooksinpopmusic.com/2013/09/27/james-greene-jr-this-music-leaves-stains-the-complete-story-of-the-misfits-scarecrow-press-2013/">http://newbooksinpopmusic.com/2013/09/27/james-greene-jr-this-music-leaves-stains-the-complete-story-of-the-misfits-scarecrow-press-2013/</a>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-18025415174221105982013-09-26T20:54:00.001-06:002019-01-27T20:37:42.639-07:00A "Monsters" Interview with Cris Kirkwood, August 15, 2013<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Skype to Phone
Interview with Cris Kirkwood</span></b></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Bassist/Vocalist</span></b></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt;">Meat Puppets</span></b></div>
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<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt;">August 15, 2013</span></b></div>
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<br /></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Matt- We’ll focus on the
time period leading up to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I didn’t email you guys for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just kind of winged it based on other
interviews I’ve read.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If for no other
reason I’m getting lazy, I didn’t want to put in the time to interview you guys
four or five times more.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So, today,
maybe we can go briefly over those records you made in Phoenix and lead
ourselves up to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you get done with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up
on the Sun</i> and then you do some touring.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This is the story as I know it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Then, in 1986, you decide to do an EP.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Why did you decide to do an EP with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out
My Way</i> rather than a full LP?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">Cris- I can’t remember.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">I guess
commercial considerations must have been foremost in our thinking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was either artistic or commercial
considerations.</i><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some such thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Honestly, I really can’t remember why the
fuck.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe we wanted to go in there and
get something into it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe the artwork
needed to be put on the cover of a record so we just went in and did that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cuz that was as long as our attention spans
were at that particular point.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Maybe you didn’t have enough material for a full record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is that possible?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t know if that was it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It definitely was its own idea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> is intentional.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What was the idea, as you remember?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>To get it made and get it out.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How about artistically?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What was the idea?</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We don’t do that kind of stuff.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But you just told me it was intentional.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea, but that stuff is hard.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It makes my head hurt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m a meat
and potatoes kind of guy.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you just went in and made a record.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I did what those guys told me to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Considering the place I find myself at this
point in my life, obviously Curt and Derrick were doing interesting and
thoughtful things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m pleased with
them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m grateful to have done it along
with them so at least I can be at this point in my life, which is one way of
looking at it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know what the
fuck those guys were doing.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I can’t remember why we did <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out
My Way</i> as an EP.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That might of just
been something to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Here’s one
thing:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>SST afforded us to do whatever we
wanted at that point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was really
cool.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We could do the kind of art that
we wanted to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We met Steve, the guy
that we recorded <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> with, and
found Chaton, the studio that we did it at.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It might have been as much as we felt like doing at that particular
point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was definitely interesting to
bring it back to Phoenix and do it that way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was different.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was a neat time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>SST
was . . .You gave them what you wanted to put out and they put it out.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So it was all based on a handshake, your contract with SST at
that point.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s all business crap.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s prying too deep.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>People
can go fuck themselves if they’re interested in that kind of shit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do they honestly give a crap?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Why?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Does it say something about the art that was made ultimately?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is what it is.</span></div>
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here’s a story about <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out
My Way</i> that’s about as much of it as I care about:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The artwork on that is a painting that Curt
did of a rug, a Mexican rug.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What that
is, is an eagle with a snake in its mouth, which is also on the Mexican
national flag.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It Mexican symbology,
obviously.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> <span style="background-color: white;"> </span></span><span style="background-color: white;">It was a rug that Curt had
and he did a painting of it, the woven design on the rug, and that became the
album cover for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"><b> </b></span></span></span><span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">Just real briefly
I’ll mention this because it’s recently transpired, a pal of ours that we met
forever ago in Philadelphia, Howard Saunders, after the record came out,
started getting new tattoos, and one of the first tattoos he got was that
artwork on his upper-left arm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
awhile after that I one night decided I needed a tattoo and having no better
idea than Howard’s decided to get the same thing on my upper-left arm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unfortunately poor dear sweet Howard, my dear
dear pal, had a motorcycle wreck a few weeks back and is now lingering in a
coma and will hopefully pull out of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s such a rough hand to be dealt, you know, an old pal of ours.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a touching thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>His picture’s on his mom’s website, with his
kids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He still has some kids, they’re
pretty young.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s one shot of him
holding the kid, you can see the tattoo that he and I share on our
upper-arm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And old, dear pal who is in
tough straights.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That’s an <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> story, specifically.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So you do <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> as an EP.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You go
out and tour on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The story I hear is that it’d been awhile
since you’d put out a record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So you do <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i> fairly quickly thinking that
in just a few months you’d do a proper LP.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You go out to tour on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>
and at some point Curt breaks a finger.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Apparently he got it slammed in a car door.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was in the van door.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was horrible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was back in the parking garage right
behind First Avenue up in Minnesota.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It’s the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Purple Rain</i>
venue.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a place that’s been around
for a long time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s still there, a
venerable, cool old place in Minnesota; First Avenue and 7<sup>th</sup> Street Entry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we played, and Curt was changing his
pants, he was slipping out of his pants and had his hand on the doorjamb of the
van and Darrel, our old sound guy, didn’t realize it and slid shut the van door
and slammed it on Curt’s left hand and actually broke the middle-finger on his
left hand.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was gross.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He went to the doctor and later that night
Curt went to see if he could play a chord and he tried to slide his finger up
and it just bent over like one of those straws with a joint in it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I tell you what, that’s a good story, when
Darrel slammed that fuckin’ door Curt made out a monkey yelp!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I tell you what!</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So he breaks his finger and, thus, Meat
Puppets have to go on a hiatus for awhile for his finger to heal.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It ended the tour right there, yea that
happened.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did y’all figure it would heal some day or
did it cross your mind that this might be it?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Fuck, I don’t know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s only a broken finger.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe at one point he went and sought medical
help.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The questions that you’re asking, “What
did I think?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Think of all the thoughts
people have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How many thoughts people
have.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It was definitely creepy that Darrel had
broken his finger.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was an accident,
but the way that it happened was a piss in the middle of the tour.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had to drive all the way home with an
injury like that.<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span></span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But as far as all the considerations of
the specifics of putting out an EP and then an LP, I don’t know if it
necessarily quite went down like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was more like things started to come together, you know, at the
practice place new things would start to come up and then, eventually, it would
be time to go into the studio and what was to be done was what was to be done.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What did you do while Curt’s finger was
broken?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Fuck if I know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Who knows?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I went on an alpine skiing adventure.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Or you worked on your bass.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I deep sea fished.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Or you worked on songs.</span></span></div>
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</span><br />
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No I didn’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I preened.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fuck if I know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can’t remember vast expanses of my life at
this point, quite honestly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If it
weren’t for Curt I wouldn’t have a childhood at this point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Let me think.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What the fuck did I do in there?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We’re talking ’86-’87.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>One of the things, as far as the playing was
concerned, it didn’t have to be all three of us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick and I enjoyed playing together, and
played together a lot, just the two of us.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you had a rehearsal space attached to
your house?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not by then, no.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We practiced in the living room of the house
that I lived in at that point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I had a
living room and we practiced in there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>You know what?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s video of
that that exists somewhere. Somehow there is video of that, I’ve heard of
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just us in that living room.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There’s some really early stuff out there
from, like, ’84 or ’83 or ’82.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t
even know where the hell you are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A little
garage or living room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe the housed
you lived in for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat Puppets II</i>.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’d have to see it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But eventually we moved into the house where
we had the detached garage that we turned into a studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And from that we started to get into
recording stuff ourselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And there was
always demoing things and recording was a part of our own home process to the
level of technical level that we had.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Cassette decks at first.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It all
started with cassette decks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The cheesy
kind that you took to school.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We used to
have those cassettes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then on from
there and eventually getting into multi-tracking and stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Then we got that 8-track.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That was bitchin’, a half-inch Tasc 8-track.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That allowed us to, allowed Curt to demo
stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’d have new songs and we’d
record them on the 8-track.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So it’s time to do <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, cuz you’ve been hanging out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt’s been writing songs with his finger
broken.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You go in at the end of ’86,
again to Chaton with Steve again to record that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s a much different record than <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Out My Way</i>.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is it?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think it is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Lots of people who write about it think it
is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s much more of a studio kind of
album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What do you think about <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>, Cris?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I love it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Are you kidding?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I love all our
records.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re great!</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m not asking you to compare it to the
others.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m not even comparing it to the
others.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I really think they all stand on
their own and I think they’re a testament to the band, as a band, in all its
carnations at this point, including the later stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And definitely a testament to Curt as a
songwriter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Far out,” you know,
“Whoa!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Bitchin’.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So I love it on that level and then on its
own level<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>it’s a cool record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can see the progression that we’re
undergoing, on a personal level to see where I was at playing-wise.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I haven’t heard it in awhile.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just heard something off it, I think.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is “Beauty” on that one?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I heard that recently and it just fried my
shit!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll tell you that much.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Gorgeous.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Any good <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>
stories?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here’s a good <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> story:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Chaton was at
these kind of wealthy folks house, it was in the back of their house.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The wife of the couple liked the
symphony.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And they actually bought an RV
and, full-bore, turned it into a mobile studio to be able to record the
symphony.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Paul McCartney maybe used
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Maybe Steve helped him with
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Either way, they had this studio
in their back yard.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was in a nice
part of town.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There are parts of Phoenix
that are very ritzy, it was in a nicer part of town.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She was real neat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She’d bring out these lunches during the
day.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fancy little. . .cut into little
pieces.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Until one day she smelled grass
or something and then she never came out again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So that forced us to go to whatever food was around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I remember going to Jack in the Box and I got
myself a delicious salad and I was eating it and bit into something that
actually chipped my tooth and it was a gold ring, a gold wedding band.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>From a Jack in the Box salad?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yep!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Awesome.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>While at the studio, or were you at Jack in
the Box when you did this?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We got all the food to go, came back, and
were sitting in the studio, at Chaton.</span></span></div>
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</span><br />
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What did you do with the ring?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I called Jack in the Box and spoke to the
manager and he goes, like, “I’m gonna send you a bunch of free
hamburgers.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He never even did
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The ring as fallen into the depths
of time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m sure I kept it for as long
as something like that would be kept around.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So there’s one <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> story.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You actually took quite a bit of time, for
you guys, doing <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like, six weeks.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, that’s a cool record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Interesting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was definitely a different kind of thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If it took us that long it would have been us
having some fun in the studio with some of the toys that we’d gotten ourselves,
for sure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s one of the things
there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s kind of like with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Sergeant Pepper</i>’s they went ahead and
had all these different little things, the Beatles did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt and I so grew-up on the Beatles!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that record has little added doodads.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We really cut loose with doodadary on that
one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had a Roland guitar synth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This grey guitar that was angularly strange.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It had a MIDI out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You could MIDI out it to any synthesizer that
had MIDI.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was all MIDI shit back
then.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So that’s all the horn parts and
those kind of things are that thing.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We would give ourselves that kind of
leeway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That definitely had to do with
the fact that it was in town.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Cuz you could come and go as you pleased.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.</span></span></div>
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</span><br />
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But then, the story seems to be, it was such
a studio album that it was difficult and/or you just didn’t enjoy playing much
of it live.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>No, no.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A lot of that stuff was real fun to play live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Definitely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A lot of that stuff was real fun to play live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Maybe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t remember.</span></span></div>
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<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m telling you the story as I’ve read it in
interviews through time.</span></span></div>
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</span><br />
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Oh.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So then we decided to do <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
which would be more easy to play?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s the story, exactly.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t know about that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
is a motherfucking physical effort.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It
wouldn’t necessarily have been easier to play.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That certainly wouldn’t have been the case.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We wouldn’t have gone, “Oof, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That isn’t easy to play live.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Let’s do a record that’s easier to play live.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We just didn’t work like that, you know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Songs don’t come from there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It wasn’t that specific to be able to be so
concisely put like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Each of the
records is an extension or representation of where we were at that particular
point and what went on then as far as playing it all or not playing it all and
then go on to the next record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It wasn’t
nearly that specific.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But, you know,
different studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Different songs, for
sure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Different kind of approach to the
making of a record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fun.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Same engineer, different studio.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Right.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Did that have to do with the marijuana
smells?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Not necessarily.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a cool studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Slightly bigger room.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just different.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The folks at Chaton were very gracious.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a fun place to record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In any situation I’m the lout.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Another part of the story is that coming
into <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i> there were just too many
songs to put on one album, and some of the songs that go on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> . . .<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> comes out just six or eight months after <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>. . .</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here’s as much as anything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Nominally, ever so nominally, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> was an expression of . . .it’s
Mexican slang for “balls,” and we were conscious of the fact that we didn’t do
anything other than what we wanted to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>So the underlying message and connotation wasn’t entirely unintended.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Of naming it <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Curt had already painted that painting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It was just cute as the dickens.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You did <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
in three or four days as opposed to six weeks with <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Is <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
the one that has little black and white drawings of Curt’s in the liner notes?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t know.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I remember Curt drew those when we were
sitting at a rest area somewhere in the Midwest.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I know <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Mirage</i>
has a bunch of little squiggle drawings on the inner-sleeve, along with the
lyrics.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Does it?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Maybe it was that one.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t have the LP of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>, I only have a CD of it.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Maybe <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
did go a little quicker.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can hear
the difference in the songs in some ways and obviously different guitars,
different studio.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A different side of
the band at that point.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s a more straight-forward rocking
album.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Don’t you think?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Can’t you agree with that one?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you think I’m being disagreeable?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I don’t know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m just trying to pin you down on something.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Trying to pin me down?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m being unpindownable?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You’re amorphous!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re like a jellyroll.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s a good way to be, man.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s how you stay cool.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We don’t even have to talk about the fact
that everybody calls it the ZZ Top record, unless you want to talk about it as
a ZZ Top record.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think, as far as being the ZZ Top record,
definitely ZZ Top was a conduit for us, in the same way as the Grateful Dead
were, to a rich vein of American music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We definitely were mining that particular vein at that point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He was obviously exploring the boundaries of writing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And ultimately we’re gonna be talking about <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>, and there you go again.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A guy like that, with the ability to . .
.First to have the desire to express himself in these particular ways and then
to use these various fields.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They were
always just fields for us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not like
I’m going, “That’s our ZZ Top record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s our chublit record.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i> is like, you don’t need to get
too specific about it, you can’t really pin that on one particular band, but it
just has a slightly different feel as far as I’m concerned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All of which the band were adeptly able to
follow, visit, and make our own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think
they’re all a testimony to Curt as a songwriter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As far as <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
is concerned that’s where he was at at that point, checking-out what it was
like to take the band to that point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We’d been playing for awhile at that point.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were young men that had been doing it for
a minute, you know, and could kick a fuckin’ tassel full of ass.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And you getting, at this point, a bit of
notice from, at least, the critical industry, which you may or may not care
about, but you knew about it.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We were already old news by then.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were already old news.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were critically acclaimed off of our
earlier records and that kind of faded back and we became yesterday’s
news.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A whole other wave of cool
hipsters came along and redefined what it was to be groovy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We just went off on our own fuckin’ trip like
we’d always done.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At one point people
decided that it was neat enough to give it attention and we sprangboard from
that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we’re now in our forth decade
of music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We had gotten to the point
that we’d gotten, that was the bitchin’ thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>There was a whole batch of cool music-making that was going on that we’d
all got to.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a very alive,
creative, album spitting-out machine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Us
and our compatriots, who we can’t forget, at that time were just banging shit
out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Record after record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That speaks to the fact that our little batch
of bands had started in the first place, and then the ones that had gotten to
the point that they had gotten to by that point had started to evolve a body of
work.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now here we are talking about it
cuz it was so interesting and productive and creative time for us and other
folks as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Just like any time is at
a point that it’s at.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We just happened
to be around.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Both Curt and Derrick suggest that at this
point you guys were and had been keeping your eyes open and seeing if there
wouldn’t be a chance to make the move to a major label.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt had a career plan at this point, I
think, not just to make little art projects, but to make a serious living out
of doing this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And you get to <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i> and you still haven’t got that
great deal that you might get in a couple more years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you remember this activity of trying to
get to the major label?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How do you feel
about that, Cris?</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>If those guys are being that specific about
it. . .We weren’t adverse to any forward momentum in terms of the business side
of the band in any way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We started going
in to visit with the majors as early as the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Meat
Puppets II</i> years.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a question
of them coming to us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We continued to
make that art that we were making.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As
far as trying to specifically gear it towards those people we weren’t not being
the most sick fucking band that we could possibly be that ultimately led to us
being signed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It started to happen in
there somewhere.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>And your friends are getting major label
deals at this point, whether it be Hüsker Dü or, I don’t know, fIREHOSE pretty
soon or. . .</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But you look at what happened to the
Hüskers, you know, and it wasn’t the end-all and be-all.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the side of it that’s just what it
was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It had to take care of itself to
the degree that it did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some bands really
just fit the mold.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m reminded of REM,
you know, those early records just fucking rule.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s like, “What in the living God, you
guys?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just really bitchin’
shit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And it has such a personality of
its own.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To be able to go on to really
connect with people to the degree that they were and make such solid shit again
and again and again that rides like that, that’s a different kind of a
scene.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sick.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I saw that going on and wondered about
it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the business side of
things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some people are really,
obviously made for it.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
<div class="Body" style="line-height: 200%; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: -.5in;">
<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you think, and I know that you know them
at least a little bit, that the REM guys were very conscious about “this is
what we need to do if we want to get on a major and sell a lot of records,” or
did they just do art and not care.</span></span></div>
<span style="background-color: white;">
</span><br />
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s not like we were just doing art.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not like we were sitting there in
diapers having yet another be-in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt
had a family, absolutely we wanted to be making a living off of it, we had been
making a living off of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We were open
entirely to whatever could possibly happen with the band as far as the business
side of stuff was concerned and always had been.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We’d always just had stuff come our way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When we didn’t wind up getting signed back in
the early days, and Hüsker did, and were some of the first dudes out of our
scene to get signed, you could see that some of the majors were around.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then those guys, you know, it didn’t go
as well as it could.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s that side
of the majors thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Being signed is one
thing and then whether you do anything with it.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We’re talking about the past.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The business side of stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s probably me, honestly.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I take responsibility for why we didn’t
manage to get our records. . .I obviously am a completely and utterly wrong
kind of person to be doing this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As
witness my eventual behavior.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But that’s years off.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You’re still okay in ’86.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Oh yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>We were all okay.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And at that
point it’s just down to, who knows?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
we’re still playing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It all winds-up
that we’re still here playing.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>So after <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Huevos</i>
you do quite a bit of touring.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The story
seems to be there was some frustration in the band that you weren’t getting
signed and some of your buddies were.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It wasn’t like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Frustration in the band?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As far as frustration in the band, MTV
started shortly after we did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You see
these guys getting real popular, some of it is like when a whole movement that
suddenly gets popular.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of it is so
far away from where we were at.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The “New
Romantics” came in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s just too hot to
wear a wig here, unless you’re a real trouper, and I was not down with the
program.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Certain things, you know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then the metal stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Some of the metal shit blew-up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The guys in Metallica are our age, you
know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You could see people connecting at
a different level.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There was always that
kind of a thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But down deep it was
always just doing the art.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know
if you can ascribe a group mindset to, you know, “We’re frustrated because we
haven’t been signed.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was stunned by
the fact that anybody wanted to. . . When the first 7” came out, I gotta tell
you, because it was just such a personal release, to make the noise that we
made, for me, the idea that we recorded for other people to listen to just
seemed spurious at best.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There is suggestion that <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i> is a bit more . . . for
instance, you use the electronic, preprogrammed drums on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick suggested
that was purposeful because that was what was selling at the time and that
would get you a better chance at the major labels.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Definitely not having Bostrom on the record
helped our chances at success, I’ll agree with him there.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You do a bunch of demos first, in Phoenix,
before you record <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i> proper.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And you shop these around to the major
labels.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Ooh la la!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Big business in rock and roll land!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Fuck if I know, dude!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Oh, we
shopped them around?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Shopped the demos around.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Is that the term?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is that what
people say?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Who said that?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Did Derrick say we did that?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Derrick said that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And there are some interviews from the past
where Curt suggests that same thing.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I agree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Whatever the fuck the current history is, those guys definitely remember
better than I do.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>For sure, through all of it, at points
what do you do?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Go commercial and have commercial
intent?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can to the degree that you
can.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We managed to continue to put out
records.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>What do you think about the drums on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i>?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>They’re great.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re neat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I love all of our records, like I told you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Each one stands on its own like a reminder of
that particular period of my life.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We
made them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s neat to listen to where
we’re at and to hear the stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s sluggin’!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s some bitchin’ shit on that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“The Void,” that’s fucked, man, that’s an
evil song!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And to see Curt be able to
wander into such a . . .metal is kind of bitchin’ to play, you know, it’s all,
like, cool riffs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think Derrick
programmed. . . they’re his beats.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot
of it was the beats, too.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A lot of the
stuff Derrick did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>At points it was our
beats, Curt’s beats, depending on what he wanted out of the song.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Derrick was his own wonderful thing and I
think he contributed to the programming of that stuff.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was, what’s his face, the Drum Doctor
whose tones those were, and did the programming.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And then it was, what’s his name, Eric, E.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Who’s the Drum Doctor?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>You can figure it out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I can’t remember.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He’s an L.A. fixture, for real.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A studio dude that goes around and delivers
kits to studios for drummers and tunes them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>A lot of people use him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was
the go to guy for a show back then.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m
not sure where he is about now, but I imagine that you will easily be able to
find out who he is on the computer.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The one person who had bit on the shopping
around is Peter Koepke, who is at Atlantic at the time.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>This is all stuff, you know, it’s so ugly to
talk to me about it because whatever the band managed to get to business-wise,
the best I can say is that we were always open to any forward movement in terms
of the business of the band.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And
certainly everybody was welcome to come to the shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If millions of people wanted to come to each
show that would’ve been fine with us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If
Proctor and Gamble wanted to get in bed business-wise it would’ve been fine
with us as long as we could continue to make music.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s what we wanted to do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s the most I have to say about it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As far as talking to you about the business
stuff, it’s just creepy, cuz I’m the one who eventually quashed the forward
momentum that we were rolling along, and the details of which we’re trying to
specify here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So whoever said anything
else about how the fuck it went down, use their version.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>We can talk about the records and the
making of the records all day long.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Those things I don’t think I sullied.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>These other things are just whatever.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The vocals on <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Monsters</i> are really cool.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>A lot of that is probably Curt with
himself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s probably why it’s
good.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It doesn’t have me wrecking it.</span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How about the keyboard stuff on there?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is that you or is that Curt?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like on “Light.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There’s like a little Casio something.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That was probably still that guitar synth,
it would’ve been something like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Light”’s got that little horn thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>That’s a little too accurately played in my memory, so maybe that was
the guitar.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You can tell when it’s one
of us playing keyboards, it’ll be very simple.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It’s pretty simple stuff on “Light.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s not Elton John.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Everything we do is simple.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And for Curt, he more and more likes it to be
about as Flinstones as you can get.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Who does the parts on the end of “Monsters”
and at the end of “Like Being Alive,” somebody says “It’s like being eaten by a
giant doo doo log with teeth.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you
remember?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I can’t remember.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Curt would remember that shit, definitely.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>“Take this and shove it down your
throat!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hope you don’t choke on it,” at
the end of “Monsters.”</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>That would probably be Curt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And the “giant doo doo log with teeth,” I
would say those are probably both Curt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>He would remember it more than I would.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Fabulous discussion, Cris.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>How about this?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Is this a real thing?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or is this just something that my memory has
supplied me with, my faulty memory.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If
I’m not mistaken, on the vinyl, maybe of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up
on the Sun</i>. . . Didn’t they, for sure they did, inscribe little messages
sometimes.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>On the inside next to the label.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Yea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think, and I’m pretty sure it really happened, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> came out, and I thought this was just one of Curt’s
funniest turns of phrase, it said “World in turmoil” on one side, and then
“Turd in wormoil” on the other.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’ll have to look.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In fact, I just, two weeks ago I was in Salt
Lake City and I picked-up original vinyl versions of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Up on the Sun</i> and the first record.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’ll have to look.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>It might be on there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I wonder.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>There’s something on there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I did read something, but I can’t remember
what it was.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Well, Cris, I think I have what I need
here.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I hope I’ve been helpful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s an interesting progression that the band
went through.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Really, I think I feel
most comfortable with, what I said, to talk about the band’s aspirations,
especially leading up to what<b> </b>happened, it’s not really anything I’m that into
talking about.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m not purposefully ignoring your recent
history.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I have all your records and I
go see your shows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When I started
writing this book, I didn’t think the band was ever going to get back together,
so I stopped it at that point.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>But just as far as, really like, to join in
terms of what we were trying to do, I don’t really feel I deserve to have much
of a say in it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My feelings about it are
some of what drove me nuts in the first place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I think that I have by far the weakest ego of the three of us, and the
most fragile character and was, obviously, the most susceptible to myself.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>The records are bitchin’.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All those records are cool as fuck.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s fun looking back on it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The parts I remember specifically, the
guitars I used.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I try to remember the
way the guitar felt in my hands at the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Stuff like that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Seriously, the
other day hearing “Beauty” was just like a crack in the sky.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A wonderful thing.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I’m gonna try and catch you guys in
Flagstaff on Halloween.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’ll try to stop
by and say hi.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Cool, man!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I’m just now working on these promotional paintings for that show.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The promoter wanted some crap.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They’re supposed to be Halloween themed, but
I don’t think they are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I tried.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">M-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Do you guys do funny things on Halloween, on
stage?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you dress-up?</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: white;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "courier new"; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 200%;">C-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>I think we pretty much dress-up and do funny
things every time we get on stage.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Fuck
no!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These days?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I, personally, need to dress-up like a
zombie.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No make-up needed. Fuckin’ Jesus
Christ!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“Hey, look!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Cris came as Golem!”</span></span></div>
Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-756240850122017654.post-58287270957666604222013-09-10T10:35:00.000-06:002013-09-10T10:35:18.524-06:00New Books Interview with William J. Bush, author of "Greenback Dollar: The Incredible Rise of the Kingston Trio"<a href="http://newbooksinpopmusic.com/2013/09/10/william-j-bush-greenback-dollar-the-incredible-rise-of-the-kingston-trio-the-scarecrow-press-2013/">http://newbooksinpopmusic.com/2013/09/10/william-j-bush-greenback-dollar-the-incredible-rise-of-the-kingston-trio-the-scarecrow-press-2013/</a>Matthew Smith-Lahrmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949492958849011344noreply@blogger.com0