Thursday, May 19, 2022

Interview with Father Tim, Grace Episcopal Church

 

Interview with Father Tim

Rector

Grace Episcopal Church

St. George, Utah

 

Interview takes place in Father Tim’s office at the church

June 15, 2015

 

Matt: Father Tim., can you tell me a little bit about your biography and how you got to where you are right now at the Grace Episcopal Church in St. George, Utah.

Father Tim: I’ll try to keep it short.  First of all, thanks for your time today.  I think it’s great hearing about your biography and your honesty and frankness.  We share a lot of biography, more than you realize.

Timothy D. Raasch; a good German name.  In the middle of three children; and older brother, younger sister.  Classic middle child.  My first four years were in Georgia.  My father was Air Force, World War II Army Air Corp, prisoner of war, and then got Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees at Bradley College in Peoria.

M:    Your dad, or you?

FT:   My Dad.  Transitioned from Air Force to Lockheed.  So, four years Georgia, two years the bay area, San Jose.  Two years, Manchester, New Hampshire, in the early sixties where my dad was working on a satellite tracking station.  Came back to California, Sunnydale, Santa Clara Valley, long before it was renamed Silicon Valley.  I remember the Bay Area really well in terms of orchards and apricots and cherries and figs, and gradually computers came in in the early-80s.  I remember kind of almost. . .I imagine we all have our golden ages when we were children or adolescents.  The sixties, early-70s, is almost a golden era of America when we, mom used to say, “Go out and play all day,” and we’d play all day, come back in.  We weren’t being overscheduled in terms of junior high, high school, in terms of college with masters and SAT scores.  I came out of Freemont High School in 1972.  We all got draft numbers.  That was really the symbolic end of the Vietnam War.  That’s the important part of understanding – I’m a boomer – my generation, a little bit younger, where the sixties was exciting and chaotic, but what an amazing time.  You could say the same thing about the seventies and eighties, but Civil Rights, and Vietnam, and the space race, and British Invasion, and music.  It was just. . .In terms of the sociology of religious/spiritual experiences, you know, William James talks about oceanic experiences, heightened reality.  The sixties was very much shaped like that to the point in the seventies when I felt the culture and events were quieting down, a real kind of psychic let down.  The sixties were one thing after another, amazing things:  moon shots, and music, and stuff.

      I graduated in 1972 and went off to the University of California, Davis.  My first major was Anthropology, then went on to a succession of other majors.  Thought about Art History for awhile.  English.  What do you do with English?  And then International Relations was one major.  American Studies.  Finally, at the beginning of my senior year, I changed to Religious Studies.  I liked learning about religion.  I was raised Congregational in New England for a couple years.  Presbyterian in California, the Bay Area, early-sixties.  But as with you, my dad was raised Wisconsin Synod Lutheran which is to the right of Missouri Synod, extremely conservative.  My mom was raised Ohio Presbyterian.  So in the early-sixties we stopped going to church, in California.  I flunked out of Cub Scouts.  I wasn’t interested in Merit Badges, tying ropes and things.  I was into reading and writing poetry and thinking about being a Naval Officer or a poet or an astronaut. 

I can remember a Gray-Y which is a YMCA youth group, fifth grade/sixth grade, I loved that.  My dad and I used to go to the Presbyterian Church in junior high, just my dad and me.  I think my dad was a little bit more spiritual and religious than my mother, probably from his war experiences.

So I majored in Religious Studies.  Graduated from UC-Davis in 1976.

M:    In your final year?  So you had to take all the classes for the major?

FT:   Well, I’d caught a few before that.  What really excited me. . .Well, two things.  I really enjoyed reading about Judaism and Buddhism.  Christianity, I kind of grew up with that, was old hat.  It still is.  I learned to distinguish my spiritual soul journey as distinct from the institutional church.  You may of heard it in my sermon.  In college I took part in a freshman year honors Humanities curriculum at UC-Davis called Integrated Studies – interdisciplinary – which is how education should be.  So, History, Religion, Science, and Theology.  It was an interdisciplinary thing.  It was fabulous.

M:    Same group of students?

FT:   Same group of students.  It’s still there.  Integrated Studies.  Many lived in the same dorm.  I lived in a separate dorm.   We’re reading Nietzsche and the Bible as literature, which is how I think it actually should be read.  Not for beliefs and creeds.  I think that’s secondary.  Or even moral codes.  It’s the stories of people gathering themselves as communities with the idea of being one god and a revelation they experienced, how that’s interpreted over the years and how it’s evolved.  So for me it really is a story of a people of faith, and as literature.  I think it gets reduced when you talk about beliefs and creeds, and a lot of people interpret it that way.

      I started reading Nietzsche and Altizer and Hamilton, all these death of God theologians.  You may have read about them, the late-sixties.  That was fabulous.  Some think the real death of God.  How can you believe in God after Auschwitz?  Have you ever been to a concentration camp?

M:    I have not.

FT:   I have a strong German background from my father, a POW, and I was at Buckenwald ten years ago and. . . That’s another thing to talk about, the experience of a heightened spiritual experience of trauma.  I was walking to the camp and I physically stopped and I had to force myself to go farther.  It’s quite interesting.

      So, other than death of God theologians, some of the say the real death of God or how imagery of God. . .

M:    What does that mean, the death of God?

FT:   Literally, some people felt God had died, literally.  Others felt symbolically, metaphorically, theologically, that one image of God. . .Kind of like Thomas Kuhn’s ideas of scientific revolution.  A paradigm.  There’s a thesis, and idea, and opposite idea, and antithesis, they wrestle into a new third way, a synthesis results.  So language about God gets worn and dies and goes through chaos and emptiness into a new language, new imagery of God emerges, which I think actually characterizes the human experience.  It explains all the denominations and religions.

M:    Is that the same as a planet not being a planet anymore?

FT:   It depends on how you define that.  Some believe in the ontological death of God, others felt it was more symbolic . . .Certain kinds of religious imagery and language had died and would now have to give way to another kind.  When Harvey Cox was writing, talking about the secular society in the sixties, he felt religion had died.  The death of God came out of that.  It was exciting for me cuz of the risk incurred they’re taking in terms of religion, beliefs and creeds, and maybe our experience of God which always, of course, comes through our bodies – that was my sermon on Sunday – it comes through our minds.  You know, Kant, we shape our experience through idealism, our ideas.  Those things really die and then something else emerges from creation.

      So I started reading theology on my own.  Altizer and Nietzsche and then started the Episcopal Church in Davis.  Went off to do an MTS program at the Church Divinity School at the Pacific.. . the graduate Theological Union at Berkeley.

M:    What’s an MTS?

FT:   Master of Theological Studies program.  Not an academic masters, not an MD, going off to ordination.  I had no thought about ministry.  I was interested in an MTS, a practical degree about theology and the arts.  I found my interest in 1978 and it still is a passion.  Theology and the arts:  music, poetry, literature, consciousness, sociology, peace and justice, what else, you know.  Buddhism.  While I was there I experienced a intentional faith community for the first time, with Daily Offices of Morning Prayer, Eucharist, Evening Prayer, Compline.  Those are the four traditional Daily Offices of the Episcopal Church that divide . . .the Eucharist is important, but the Daily Offices where, like, the monks, they have silence at night, early evening, they have Morning Prayer, breakfast, Eucharist all in silence.  They work, they’re in the world.  They have NoonDay Diurnum Prayers.  Afternoon, working, studying.  Five PM Evening Prayer.  Supper.  Compline, eight o’clock silence.  I really liked that order.

M:    These are who?

FT:   These are the Daily Offices of the Episcopal Church.  Somewhat similar to Catholic.

M:    But the people, you said the monks?

FT:   The Episcopal Church had monks.  I started going to the Order of the Holy Cross, which is an Anglican men’s order in Santa Barbara, California, and also in West Park, New York, I was just there.  Actually I had gone to them before seminary.  I was attracted by, a friend of mine brought me there.  But the intentional religious community of which, as you realize, is happening again.  People are intentionally getting together, pooling resources, forming communities.  Nothing to do with church, but prayer, fellowship, study.  One strand of that is called Emerging Christianity.  Are you familiar with that?  Emerging Christianity.  Brian McLaren.  Diana Butler-Bass.  Emerging Christianity.  Pretty much a 21st Century, rediscovering a Christian way of the first three centuries before the Nicene Creed came in, the 4th Century and Christianity, an illegal movement of fellowship, a way of discipleship and faith and transformation.  Then gets subsumed into empire and church and here we are.  I read about them.

      I transferred into the MDiv.  Was ordained, knowing and not knowing what I was getting in for.

M:    This was where?

FT:   This was at Grace Cathedral.  I was ordained in the Episcopal Diocese of California, Grace Cathedral.  Deacon, ’83.  Preacher in ’84.  Without going through all the details, I was a Curat Assistant at a parish in Menlo Park, California for three years.  I was Rector, like here, at an Episcopal Church in San Rafael, California for three years and a suburban church. . .while I was in Menlo Park I was part-time Chaplain at a K-5 Christian school.  I loved that.  Just teaching Bible.  Fifth and sixth graders.  I was part-time Episcopal Chaplain at Stanford for a year.  I enjoyed that.  Then went to San Rafael, suburban, inward looking.  I was already thinking about, I wanted to do more in terms of study.  . . I was thinking about being a therapist or academic.  I was interested in theology and psychology.  I discovered the writings of C.G. Jung and archetypal psychology.  James Hillman.  The Inner Life.  Spirituality.  Consciousness.  The arts.  It is very holistic.  I love that.

      I applied for a doctorate in theology and psychology at Emory, I got a couple calls from the department.  My GREs were so-so that year.  I had test anxiety.  Didn’t get in.  Should’ve applied the second year.  But we all have our regrets.

      Went off to do, in ’89, what’s called Advanced Clinical Pastoral Education, which is hospital chaplaincy.  Every Seminarian has to do what’s called Clinical Pastoral Education when they’re in Seminary.  One basic unit.  Ten to twelve weeks in a hospital.  Groups of 6, 12, 18 Seminarians.  You’re serving as a Hospital Chaplain.  Half the time you’re in a small group basically doing small group therapy.  Verbatims.  Case studies.  It’s very intensive.  You first learn that the verbatims you write by memory, twenty to one hundred exchanges between you and me.  The verbatim is not about you and the patient, they’re all about you and what you’re experiencing and how you have to go into your own inner life, into your own inner homework, and you’re going to get out of the way of being a Pastor to a patient.  That’s called Clinical Pastoral Education.  Seminarians like it or they hate it.  I liked it.  I grew up in kind of a fractious family.  Mom and dad had their problems.  They separated, got back together.  Pretty bad arguments.  Some alcohol stuff.

      So I finished Advanced Clinical Pastoral Education at Hartford Hospital in Connecticut in ’91.  Two years.  I fell into interim work, would come in as the Interim Transitional Priest in a Parish where the Priest just resigned or left.  You’re there for a year and a half helping this Parish to transition while they search for a new permanent clergy.

M:    This is in Connecticut still?

FT:   Connecticut and Rhode Island.  Had a great experience in a place called Stonington Connecticut, on the shore.  It was the first time I felt really that we kind of matched in terms of interests.  Bright New Englanders.  Didn’t take religion too seriously.  They love the arts and community and they weren’t holier than thou and closed evangelical.  Really kind of a meeting of the minds and soul.

      Came back to California.  I was the Rector of a church in San Jose, California from ’94-’99.  During that time I was really getting burned out in the institutional church.  I could’ve caught better advice from the Bishop and Spiritual Directors in terms of hang in there.  But my beliefs were changing.  I went to see my Bishop in the Diocese of El Camino Real in ’98 or so.  El Camino Real is South Bay, California, down to the Central Coast.  I think there are five or six Diocese in California.

      The Episcopal Church are Diocese, geographical areas.  One Bishop.  Cathedral usually.  And then Parishes.  Forty to seventy parishes in a Diocese.  We’re in one Diocese here called Utah.  Bishop Scott Hayashi.

      I went to see the Bishop in ’98 and said, “Bishop, my beliefs are changing.”  I said, “I’m probably one part Episcopal, one part Unitarian, very New England, theist to diest, or even agnostic or atheist.  Unitarians have room for all that.  One part Episcopal, one part Unitarian, one part Reformed Jew.  I like the Jewish background stuff.  That’s fundamental.  One part Buddhist.  Without that I could not be a priest in terms of the awareness that the real transformation happens in one’s mind and heart and body, we shape our reality by discovering the contents of how we think and feel.  We can shape that.  So, one part Episcopal, one part Unitarian, one part Reformed Jew, one part Buddhist, one part Humanist.  The Bishop kind of laughed nervously and said, nervously, “Well that sounds like Episcopal to me.”  So I wasn’t alone.

      I always wanted to write.  I had a calling to write in junior high.  I read Thomas Wolfe and Tolkien and started writing poetry.  I was the coeditor of the creative writing magazine at Freemont High School in Sunnyvale, California.  It’s interesting how with something so close and powerful and passionate itself is scary.  “Can I do it?”  I had been walking back and forth with that for forty years.  I have journals full of ideas.  So I need to un- this.  Do I get an MFA in creative writing?  What am I gonna do with that?  So a Masters in Journalism makes sense.

M:    Sounds practical.

FT:   Mid-forties?  No.  That’s my father’s voice.  “Be practical.”  So I was on the waiting list at Columbia.  Got into Missouri and Northwestern. 
Great programs.  They’re well-known for that; they might be the top three, maybe.  I went to Northwestern.  They were very much hands on.  A one year program.  Well received.  I hated it for two quarters.  Hated it.  They wanted journalistic writing, which is not what I really wanted to do.  I wanted to do more creative, imaginative, left-brain/right-brain together.  But I stuck it out.  Made the program my own.  There was one course, law and media at the law school.  I loved that.  I thought about law school.

M:    What year is this?

FT:   This was ’99 to 2000.  The law school class, I loved.  The dean was wanting me to think about going to law school.  Mid-forties.  I can’t afford that.  And then, the last quarter there, I took. . . Northwestern is known for the hands-on.  Columbia, Missouri is kind of theoretical, which I think I actually would’ve enjoyed.  Northwestern has a campus in Chicago and one in D.C.  Hands-on.  Different areas of emphasis:  economic, urban, so on.

M:    Northwestern has a campus in D.C.?

FT:   It’s their hands-on.  It’s kind of a small department.  You actually write articles for local newspapers, and get published.  So you’ll find my byline on various things about technology and business in Chicago newspapers.  Somewhere out there.  I actually had facility for that, opening lines and things.  I enjoyed that.

      Then I took a course in playwriting.  It was fabulous.  It was absolutely fabulous.  I convinced Northwestern to honor that as a writing course.  I could ‘B+’ the other courses.  It’s limited, concise.  But then I got an ‘A’ in playwriting.  Part time, Masters program, at Northwestern in playwriting attracting folks from across the country.  Mid-career folks, like me.  Teaching, acting, writing.  Northwestern is known for their drama school.  A lot of folks came out of there:  Charlton Heston, Jerry Orbach, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.  She didn’t finish, but in the alumni magazine, she’s on there, looking great!  They’re known for their drama school.  You’d know that, I’m sorry.  I loved that course.

      Then I left Chicago.  I had some money.  During that time I began rediscovering my own spiritual soul journey apart from the church.  I had to do that.  I realized that faith was still a part of my life.

M:    Were you going to church all this time?

FT:   I went to an Episcopal church, Unitarian, American Baptist, during that time.  I explored.

M:    There’s a chapel right there on campus, Northwestern.

FT:   Yea.  I knew the chaplain at the time, Jackie Schwartz.  She was close to retirement.

      So I left.  Moved back.  I stayed with friends for several months in the East while I looked for a job mainly in school chaplaincies.  I’m not sure about parish work.  It’s hard to find a job in chaplains.  There are fewer of those, whether school or university, private school, there’s not as many.  It’s a real close network.  Usually they get young folks right out of Seminary or they’ve been chaplains their entire life.  Getting interviews.  Nothing.  I fell into interim work again.  Maryland’s eastern shore.

      So in the past 13 years I’ve done mainly interim work.  Transition.

M:    That’s when a local church. . .

FT:   A Pastor has left, a Rector has left.  They bring in a discern and call a new Priest; a year, a year and half it takes.  Interim comes in full-time to manage them through Transition.  A lot of times it’s challenging.  You’re dealing with messy situations, financially, boundaries, problems with the Priest, problem in the congregation, they’ve been split.  Remember the last twelve years have been all that stuff in the Episcopal Church, reflected in the parish in terms of ordination of people regardless of gender orientation.  At the parish level, acting out in schisms and declining numbers.  The Episcopal Church and all mainline churches since the sixties.  You know this as a sociologist, they’ve been declining for fifty years.  Right now, the average attendance in an Episcopal Church, across the country, is 61.  Sixty-one people.  That’s the average across the country.

M:    During a Sunday service?

FT:   Sunday worship entirely.  We have fewer than 2 million Episcopalians in our country.  We’re the smallest denomination.  The decline has been that rapid.  Not just in our church, but in other churches as well.  I think, also, culturally.  It comes from the Pew research polls.  People feel free to identify themselves as unchurched, atheist, agnostic, changing faith traditions, which you would not have done 50 years ago.

      So I fell into interim work.  I went to two long-term calls, neither of which had taken care of their financial business, neither of which could afford a full-time priest.

M:    Long-terms calls meaning. . .

FT:   A Rector.  Good churches.  They could not afford a full-time priest.  One was quite negative and undermining, in Kentucky, I won’t mention where.  I did hospice.  That was also challenging.  I went to Minnesota and, again, a parish that could not afford a full-time priest, but they were positive.  We moved them into what is called Total Ministry, which is gathering a lay group of people, laity, they go through a three-year program of formation studying.  And then about five to six to seven people, one’s ordained a priest, deacon, evangelist, pastoral care provider, teacher, outreach coordinator.  A team for a local parish.  All the sacramental duties.  They’re ordained and commissioned for that parish.  They can’t do it anywhere else.  That’s called Total Ministry.  It’s working in Minnesota, in places where they can’t afford a priest.  Without the overhead, it’s actually given birth to mission and ministry and hands-on involved in the community without the high-priced priest.

      I’d been looking for a long-term call for a number of years.

M:    Where do you look?  Is it like in academics where there’s a journal. . .

FT:   There are resources.  There’s the National Episcopal Church.  They have a website.  There are two other websites that have information.  I’m also late-fifties, early-sixties.  There are a lot of young folks getting calls.  That’s a fact.  I’m also more expensive than younger people.  But I’m now the Rector here.  I know it’s a long story.  I have tenure.  I’ll be here. . .I’m 61. . .  I could be here for 11 more years.

M:    They have something called tenure?

FT:   When you’re Rector you’re the priest with automatic tenure unless you have problems with conduct, boundaries, financial malfeasance, I’m here as long as I see the call is here.  Interim is just short-term.

M:    And as far as you can see they have the funds to . . .

FT:   As far as I can tell, yeah.  It’s a health parish on the whole.  You seen some of the numbers in your observations.

I gave you a fairly institutional chronology there.  Some of my own journey.  Diverse denominational background.  I was on the verge of becoming a Jesus Freak out of high school, but I backed off intuitively aware that there are many ways to God and not just one.  I knew that in the sixties.  That’s actually a very Episcopal way of doing things.  We are pretty much non-doctrinaire.  We’re neither Catholic nor Protestant.  We’re kind of in between.  Different.

So my journey:  church ministry and then. . .It’s like my faith suddenly was going beyond the institutional church.  “Am I still a believer?”  I’m my own kind of believer.  Then I came back to ministry.  I eventually realized that you have to follow your own journey whether it fits in the church or not.  That’s the background.  That’s a long answer, isn’t it?

M:    So you’ve ended up, at least at this point. . . I don't know what you’re going to do in the future, but at this point you’re still in a pretty institutional position.  You’re in a bureaucratic. . .your position is bureaucratic.  You’re an administrator.  You’re not just a preacher.  You take care of funds, probably.  You probably have to discipline people below you, if need be.

FT:   Which is already happening.  Staff stuff.

      In the Episcopal Church, if the church is self-sufficient it’s called a parish.  When it is not. . . actually the Diocese of Utah is flush with money.  That’s unusual.  They had a hospital.  The Episcopal Church, I’ve learned, has some real history in Utah going back to almost as early as the Mormons.  That’s not well-known.  Episcopalians were somehow here early, or at the same time.  So they had some kind of grounding more than other denominations.  West Coast, Catholic, Roman Catholic, Spanish, or Evangelical.  The Southeast, North Carolina, South Carolina, very Episcopal.  New England, Unitarian, Congregational.  Upper-Midwest, Catholic, Lutheran; Minnesota, very much.

      A parish has a Rector.  They are self-supporting.  If you’re not self-supporting you are a mission with a Vicar.  We have a Rector here even though we’re technically a mission, but we’re on the edge because we really operate as a parish and that’s going to be changed within the next year of the Diocese because we’re getting funds from the Diocese but not after this year.  It’s a special case.  We really are functioning on our own, but we’re still getting funds from the Diocese.

M:    When you’re a Parish you stop getting funds from the Diocese?

FT:   And you’re on your own through stewardship, pledges, tithing, rent the space out to other organizations.  Our attendance right now is like 120, 130.  That’s what’s called a Pastoral-sized church.  Arlin Rothaughe, 25 years ago, priest and sociologist, did some studies of the demographics of church as a social institution.  Everything, across the board:  academic communities, military, everything, as an institution, family systems, organization.  He discovered that churches operate differently.  Clergy operate differently depending on the size of the church.  Family-size churches, 0-50 membership, Sunday morning.  Pastoral, 50-140,150 membership, the old term was, a lot of people still use that, Program 150 plus, to 250-300.  Then there are called Corporate Resource Organizations.  Cathedrals, board of directors, all kinds of missions, administry, social involvement.  Were a Pastoral-size parish here, 120-130.

M:    So these terms are across the board, different types of religions.

FT:   Clergy function differently in different sized organizations.  In Pastoral, the clergy is at the center of parish life.  Family is smaller, usually the clergy is on the edge while the patriarchs and matriarchs of the church run the place.

M:    So the clergy are a group of people who run the organization.

FT:   Ordained clergy.  But in different sized organizations the function differently.  That’s sociologically interesting.  Folks understand, “Oh, that’s why churches aren’t the same across the board.”  They really are different depending on their size.

M:    So here, in your Pastoral-size church the clergy are mainly the people who are, forgive my terminology, wearing the outfits during the ceremony.

FT:   No.  I’m the only ordained clergy.  There’s Father Jeff on Sunday who is also ordained.  No one else is.

M:    You have on your website these three other people.

FT:   They are assisting, retired, clergy.  They’re associates.  They’re retired assisting clergy.

M:    So that’s why you’re here.

FT:   I was called to be Rectorum.  They went through, actually, a short search.  They convinced the Diocese, “We’re healthy.”  I think for better or for worse they think that they would rather not go through transition before I came here.  That would’ve been helpful.  They went through a short search.  I think the Diocese gave them a number of names, they went through those.  I feel blessed and lucky because many times I’ve moved around so much, and people won’t. . .first paper cut, bing, “He won’t stay.”  And my age, I’m 61.

M:    Your use of the term “calling” is not the same as, say, the people in the LDS Church use “calling.”

FT:   I’m not sure how they call it.

M:    God didn’t tell you to come here, did He?

FT:   I’m not sure how they understand that.

M:    And I don’t either.  I thought maybe you’d know better.

FT:   I think all of us, when we actually discover a vocation that excites us, that involves head, heart, energy, joy, body, there’s always frustrations, that those are all spiritual calls.  In the secular world they’re called vocations.  You have a vocation here.  I see it in your energy, in your joy, and your intellectual.  So I was not hired here, I was called by the vestry, the bishop.  The authority really is, in the Episcopal Church, this is complicated, the bishop is really acting through the vestry.

M:    And the vestry is the group here.

FT:   A lay group of people who get together once a month, and they’re in charge of finances and buildings and grounds, which we do together.  I’m in charge of everything else.

      The history of the Episcopal Church is, we came out of the English Reformation, Luther, and then the Counter Reformation, and then there was Henry VIII in England.  I get confused here, there’s Zwingli, Calvinists and Presbyterians, Switzerland.  You know the history better than I do.  We came out of the Church of England.  Technically, according to Richard Hooker, 1600s, early Anglican Episcopal bishop, defined us as neither Rome nor Reformed.  We’re neither Catholic nor Protestant, even though we used to be called the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States.  Thirty years ago we dropped the word “Protestant.”  We’re just now the Episcopal Church.  We’re like a third way.  Roman Catholic, Protestant, Episcopal, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, and then Pentecostal, non-denominational, Bible Churches that come out of a kind of Protestant. . .You know the flow chart.  We’re like a third way which actually appeals to my way of thinking.  There’s a baptismal covenant in which we’re all called to ministries, lay or ordained, and that’s been revived the last thirty-five years, the baptismal covenant.  We’re all called to ministry in the Church, to participate, do things.  Lay read.  Bring [something] to the sick.  The soup kitchen which is fabulous here.  Grace Church is known for their soup kitchen which has groups participating from all over St. George including many Mormon Churches.  We’re the only one in town, as far as I know, that’s five days a week.  A soup kitchen, hands-on compassion.  That’s a sign of active, modern, 21st Century church.  Hands-on outreach.  It’s one of the reasons why I came here.  They’re welcoming.  They’re progressive.  We have former Mormons.  We welcome the LGBT community here.  We have room for liberal, conservative, and moderate Episcopalians; I’m more former left, more moderate now.  Welcoming.  The service is the Eucharist, which is kind of Catholic but our own way of doing that.  So they’re known for being welcoming, progressive, open theologically.  A lot of folks here are transplants from elsewhere so they’re not entrenched in, like, Virginia where it’s the way things have always been.  They’re open to change and new ideas.  I think hopefully you heard Sunday, I think the response to sermons. . .They’re interested intellectually in ideas and more ways of serving their community.

      Anything else about the Episcopal Church?  We’re known as people of the via media, we’re called the people of the middle way.  Some folks feel that’s kind of wishy-washy, watered-down.  Not Catholic, not Protestant.  Actually, it’s quite creative.  We take. . .In many ways of thinking.  Not just Catholic, Protestant, liberal, conservative, left-brain/right-brain, dualism.  We take those opposites, we listen in a dance into hopefully a synthesis will emerge, a new way of thinking, new paradigm.  That way of thinking appeals to me as an Episcopal Priest.

M:    Wouldn’t you say that socially, at least in America, and politically, the Episcopal Church tends to lean more towards the left than the right?

FT:   Probably now.  Fifty years ago we were known as the church of the mainstream, the upper-middle-class, rich republicans, morning prayer would’ve been used on Sunday morning instead of Eucharist.  Eucharist would’ve been one Sunday a month.  The liturgical reform meant, thirty  years ago when we came back and claimed mass, Holy Eucharist as the Sunday service, morning prayer during the week.  I miss morning prayer.  So right now, yes, because we’ve been at the forefront in terms of AIDS, of gender equality, women being ordained, folks who happen to be gay being ordained:  Gene Robinson.  The Episcopal Church has adopted the United Nations Millennium Development Goals in terms of reaching out, in terms of health, education for children and for women, combating poverty.  We’ve adopted those things.  So now we’re probably on the left, yes, because of women, orientation.  We were the pioneers. . . actually the Christian Church, I think, it started in California, the whole AIDS thing, remember, in the early-80s.  We were one of the first churches to come out and say, “Everyone is welcome here.  AIDS is not a stigma, it’s a disease.  It could happen to anybody.”  Now we see it spreading in our country among heterosexuals.  We were among the first to say, “This is just a disease.”  There was no comment among the Evangelicals, you know, “This is God’s wrath.”  So now we’ve been known as left, even though for a long time a pretty traditional, conservative, institutional, status quo, republican church.  That is kind of our roots, 50-75 years ago.  There are wings of liberal and all that, but we were much more establishment, institutional, cautious, traditional.  You heard about the Prayer Book, we have a Prayer Book, 1979.  That came in 1979 to replace the 1928 Prayer Book.  Good hymnal too.  Great hymns!  But the Prayer Book, that’s controversial.  The 1928 Prayer book, the one most folks grew up in.  And when the ’79 came through there was resistance.  The purpose of that was to go from traditional, penitential language, to more contemporary, more joyful language.  So there’s a “Rite I” and there’s a “Rite II.”  Page 323, “Rite I.”  Traditional.  “Thees” and “Thys.”  Page 355 . . .I bet you’re impressed that I know these pages. . .

M:    It’s your job.

FT:   I miss the Prayer Book.  We’ve been changing our Bulletin.  “Rite II,” contemporary language.  No “thees” and “thys.”

M:    And on your bulletin it said “Rite I” or “Rite II.”

FT:   It says “Rite II.”  It should say “Rite II” because we’re using “Rite II.”

M:    So you always use the “Rite II”?

FT:   They have here for some time.  It used to be in main churches, “Rite I” 8 0’clock, “Rite II” 10 o’clock.  They got rid of 8 o’clock years ago and the 5:30.  Both services here – 5:30, 10:30 – are “Rite II” contemporary.

M:    Using contemporary language.

FT:   No “thees” and “thys.”  And that’s why I recently brought in the contemporary “Lord’s Prayer” cuz we should know both.  They’re using the traditional.

M:    When we turned on Wednesday to that in here it had both of them on the same page.  I got confused, I started reading the left. . .

FT:   Episcopalians should know both.  Unashamedly, we should know both.  In our bulletin, we’ll be changing Mass, we’ll be using the Prayer Book more.  Twenty years ago the Church thought, “Our service is so confusing.”  Bulletin, Prayer Book, Hymn Book.  Each church you go to is the same learning curve.  That’s comprehensive.  For me, it’s not inviting.  It’s hard to read.  Too much stuff in there.

M:    The Prayer Book?

FT:   The Bulletin.  The Sunday Bulletin, too much stuff to read.  When you simplify it, like a Table of Contents, and use the Prayer Book, which is easier.  We’re known as the people with the Book of Common Prayer.  That’s the Episcopal Church.  The Book of Common Prayer among folks here, and England, is considered one of the jewels of English literature.  You’ll see that among folks, Shakespeare, T.S. Eliot, all the Enlgish writers.  A certain kind of Anglican language.  The heightened, not fussy, but poetry. . .The Book of Common Prayer.  Joan Didion named one of her books A Book of Common Prayer.  In England it’s considered part of our heritage, The Prayer Book, of ways. . .In here there’s outlines of faith.  There are Psalms, there are prayers, there are all the daily offices.  This document for daily spiritual practices.

M:    Tell me, how do I make sense of this.  I was trying to . . .(I point to somewhere in the book).

FT:   That’s a calendar of saints and martyrs, which we don’t really follow.  That’s more anglo-Catholic.  That’s a good question.  But we do use that on Wednesday, Holy Women Holy Men, which is a modern version of this.  But this is more anglo-Catholic.

      We are right now in what’s called the season . . .you have the liturgical calendar here.  We need to get one.  We’re in now the season after Pentecost.  Advent. . .am I going too fast?

M:    No.  Advent is Christmas time.

FT:   Advent, four Sundays, late November up to Christmas Eve.  Four Sundays.  It’s called Advent.  There are themes.  We have that in common with Catholics.  And now that’s the season being brought into more Protestant Churches.  Thirty years ago you wouldn’t find churches doint that much.  I think that’s probably our influence.

      Advent.  Christmas, two Sundays.  Then the season of Epiphany.  Which is, literature, epiphinas, revelation, manifestation, James Joyce’s. . .have you seen the film The Dead?  Great film.  James Joyce, The Dead.  Good stuff.  There’s an Epiphany party and there are epiphanies that appear in the story.  Very James Joyce.

      So, Advent.  Christmas.  Epiphany.  Lent, five, six plus weeks.  We don’t use the word “Alleluia,”  don’t have weddings, probably not burials.  During lent.  Then it’s Easter season, six weeks.  And then there’s Pentecost which is a Jewish festival that Christians appropriated.  The Spirit came to the disciples after Jesus death and resurrection.  Whether that was actual, historical or not, that’s a long conversation.

M:    This was the Holy Spirit, Pentecost?

FT:   Pentecost.  Same spirit.  People experienced God and Jesus comes to the disciples.  And that’s called the birth of the church.

M:    And that’s when it all made sense to them.

FT:   I’m not sure it made sense.  But they, however they describe that, is that the same experience of the Holy, of soul, of presence, which they experienced through Jesus, cuz there are a lot of theories about Jesus the only church, some people considered him a prophet, messiah, Jewish messiah, Christian messiah, are two different things, Son of God, literally or symbolically.  When the Nicene Creed came in the early 4th Century many people did not agree with them.  In the old church there were many ways of interpreting Jesus which you know now from reading Time Magazine.  Early church ideas are now okay to talk about now.  For a long time there was one teaching.  The Nicene Creed.  Before that there were many ways of interpreting that.

      So the Pentecost. . .The story is, they were praying, the sound of a rushing wind, tongues of fire, speaking in tongues, however you understand that, but they experienced the same sense of presence.  Which may happen in life.  Church, out of church.  Sailing.  Running.  Love.  Combat.  Life and death.  Solitude.  Transcendent, heightened ecstatic experiences for me are naturally human experiences that often times are too badly reduced to church when they’re naturally human appearing.  Sailing.  We’ve all experienced what Maslow called peak experiences.

      And so there’s the Pentecost and so we’re in the season after Pentecost.  In the back of the Prayer Book there’s what’s called the Lectionary which tells us the readings to use for all the Sundays of the church.

      So I think you’re doing fine.  And there’s the Daily Offices during the week.  That’s different.

      With many churches, we share that.  Catholics, Protestants, slightly different readings.  The Lectionary.  It’s divided into Year A, B, and C.

M:    And we’re in B.

FT:   I guess so.

M:    I can see it in your trash can.  It says. . .

FT:   Third Pentecost.

      Then we have the Daily Offices, as I mentioned earlier, I experienced at Mount Calvary, Retreat House, the Order of Holy Cross, in Santa Barbara, which sadly burned down about five years ago.  I was going to that before seminary.  It’s now just the Daily Office which is a way for laity and clergy to actually practice faith, read Psalms, study scripture, day-by-day-by-day.  This is the real heart of the Episcopal Church and any Christian denomination would do more than Sunday.  The daily lived life of prayer, study, and silence.  But we forget it and don’t do it.  So this is outlined, every day of every week of the Church year.  Every day.

M:    So how do I read this.  The Sunday, the first week of Advent.  What do the number mean?

FT:   Psalms, and readings.  Daily Office.  And it’s morning, evening.  Asterisk.  Morning, evening.  Every day.

M:    Old Testament, New Testament.

FT:   This is helpful.  Many of us are now calling it the Hebrew Scriptures.  The “Old Testament” is pejorative, written by Christians.  For many of us Hebrew Scriptures are really the key.  New Testament makes no sense without the Hebrew Scriptures.  That’s why I brought back, in all three lessons. . .a year ago they had just the Gospel.  They had just the Gospel here.  We’re now doing all three.  The reading of the Hebrew Scriptures, they’re fantastic.  Archetypal, not so much heady theoretical, walking on water.

      But this is the Daily Offices for every day.  You’ll find those on the websites.  You’ll find various websites online for morning prayer, Book of Common Prayer.

So, Emerging Christianity, which is kind of in-between Christianities is actually tapping into those things.  Forming communities beyond institutional church, no real creeds, they want sacramental worship, symbolic, experiential, mystery, scripture, and real daily prayer, and involvement in the world.  That’s called. . .it’s actually very Christian. . .Emerging Christianity has rediscovered that.  So Brian McLaren, Diane Butler-Bass.  I wasn’t so sure about them ten years ago.  I thought, “Evangelical.”  It’s fabulous.  Rediscovering the first three centuries of the faith when Christians were not known as Christians, they were called “people of the way.”  The way of Jesus.  He called disciples, sent them out themselves, the seventy, to go and teach, heal, cast out demons, bring peace.  Whenever you do that you have experienced Kingdom.  Intentional spiritual practices of study, prayer, teaching, healing, ministry, not proselytizing, ministry – the poor, the homeless – that will lead to a spiritual experience, a transformation.  I’ve experienced that myself.

M:    This is in the individual?

FT:   Yes.  Which is actually a very. . .that language, sociologically, is fairly evangelical.  Catholics are known for more institution, authority, dogma, doctrine.  Protestants are known for their emphasis on scripture, preaching, proclaiming the Word.  Anglicans, we’re known, our three areas of authority, in the Episcopal Church are scripture, and that’s in the Prayer Book, tradition, reason, there’s a fourth area of authority we call experience.  Scripture, that’s where we get our authority.  The Catholics are known for dogma, doctrine, mass, institutional, church.  Protestants known for scripture, teaching and proclaiming the news, not a lot of social justice.  Methodists, social justice.  Episcopalians, our authority is scripture which comes from the Protestant wing; tradition, Catholic; reason, 17th/18th Century England/France, the enlightenment, we love ideas; experience is a nod to the individual experience of God which is the evangelical side.  Evangelicals felt you had to have that personal, powerful, emotional, experience, which Catholics and Anglicans don’t necessarily trust because that’s all very individualistic.

M:    Cuz that contradicts the tradition and the dogma, right?

FT:   It also enhances it, augments it, it all goes together.

M:    I can see as a sociologist that it could worry the Catholic Church, if you don’t need to go to church to experience God.

FT:   Exactly.  And translating the Bible, William Tyndale translating the Bible in England from the Latin into the vulgar tongue of England.  You know what happened to him?  Taken to the Tower of London and killed.  So Tyndale, the early translations, controversial, but they’re giving power away.  Power in the laity.  So, the Reformation. . .

      Look at the back of the book called “An Outline of the Faith.”  That’s a pretty good definition.  I’ve used that for Confirmation.  That’s pretty good.

      In my own experience, I grew up somewhat churched, unchurched, Jesus Freak, almost, in high school.

M:    What does that mean, a Jesus Freak?

FT:   Late-sixties, California.  Almost a hippy.  Image of Jesus, teachings of Jesus, probably kind of like your brother in terms of community, a new way of living in the world.  I was attracted to the power of the image and reading scripture on my own.  There had to be a better way of life.  Justice, peace.  This is Vietnam.  Not materialistic.

      I pulled back, realizing there were many ways to God, not just Christian.  Episcopal priest.  Burned-out on the Church.  Came back.  Had some very challenging experiences in church the last ten years in which I found myself really experiencing some anger.  A number of years, until I realized, in terms of parishes and unwelcoming, divisive leadership.  That happened in the Church.  I had colleagues who experienced the same thing and left church entirely or they retired.

I came back a couple, five years ago.  I realized that I was carrying the anger and losing my own joy.  I had to, not only forgive, I had to choose life, which is the French existentialist choice.  You read Camus and Sartre?  Suicide or not?  You don’t choose suicide you live your life.  You construct a life of meaning.  I chose to live.  Immediately, in Delaware.  Immediately, my brain began changing.  It’s almost like being on an antidepressant, which I’ve been on a few times in my life.

I realize now that I shape my own thoughts through how. . .thinking, felling, that’s my Buddhist side.  It’s been, not always easy, but I’ve gone through what I call a spiritual awakening.  And one reference for that, Richard Rohr, his book called Falling Upward.  A lot of people reading it right now.  Their own experiences.  The way of Jesus or the way of Buddha.  Whatever spiritual path can be transformative, especially, you can’t even talk about it unless you’ve gone through a bottoming experience.  And then you realize you have a choice to live, and then how you choose to live your life.

So I had an experience.  And I can’t really explain that.  This sense of an opening in my life.  And think that is trans-Christianity.  I had to do my own inner-work.

I joined the Episcopal Church because we are sacramental, progressive, welcoming, I like our via media way of thinking, intellectual church.  We love symbols.  Rich liturgy.  We have great music.  And we’re very social justice oriented.

M:    I listen to the local Christian stations as part of research, they’re all national things, Christian Satellite Network which is, I guess, a Bible oriented, evangelical station.  It’s just people teaching.  They’re always men.  Not a lot of music, just teachings.  One that was on before I came to your Saturday night service, he was talking about justice.  He didn’t like the idea.  Justice, he says, leads to Socialism.  Then in your service you started using the term social justice.

FT:   It’s not partisan.  Justice is in the prophets.  And what is justice?  It is economic equity.  It is sharing.  There’s plenty to share.  Abundance.  The haves and have-nots.

      I could be . . .I thought about registering Socialist in high school.  I thought with my cautious side, “Do I want to put my name on a list someplace?  No.”  I could be a Social . . .What’s the term in Germany?  Social Democrat?  Christian Socialist.  I could be a Christian Socialist.  There are a lot of us.  Not partisan Communists, but that the economic system is the problem.  There are different ways, Scandinavian ways of doing that which is much more shared and you all contribute so that all are raised up. 

M:    These different Christian beliefs. . .I don’t know which comes first. . .Obviously this Christian Satallite Network is politically a conservative station.  They even point these things, how we are in the end times now, and they’ll say that we can see what’s going on in, you know, Iraq and we can show that in the Bible, so it’s a very politically conservative.

FT:   It’s called literalism.  Which we don’t tie into.  We don’t interpret the Bible literally.  You heard me Sunday.  It’s all that the world is bad, humanity is bad and fallen and that’s their experience.  I and others don’t feel that.  It’s a very Jewish idea that this is creation.  God called Abraham and the family to go out into the world and God told Abraham and his family that you’ll be a source of joy and justice to the world.  That was the Abrahamic Call.  The Jewish Call.  So it’s not changed.  Not changed with John the Baptist or Jesus.  I think Jesus brings in transformative parables, teachings, healings, that amplify that which is already there.  No conversation about Son of God, Messiah, there’s ways of interpreting that.  I’m not surprised to hear that.  But you’ll find people like Rick Warren is evangelical, who’s actually gone beyond moral judgment of gays and abortion into focusing more on poverty.  That’s a new evangelical movement happening right now.  Rick Warren is influential.  What was the book he wrote?  The Seven Practical Steps or something.  He’s new evangelical.  Which I can read.  He’s gone beyond this moral judgment, certainty.  “We should be focusing on the poor, the outcasts.”

M:    My brother must be this kind of Emerging Christian.  I’ll start talking politics and he says he doesn’t want to talk about politics.  He won’t register to vote.  “I’m doing Jesus work here.  I’m gonna stay out of the politics.”

FT:   I think the political realm is still important.  I’m a democrat.  I wish there was a socialist.

M:    Bernie Sanders.

FT:   I like what he says.

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